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I know hes addressed this before, and I know his opinion isnt Canon, but just for kicks-


Star Wars Theory asked him:


https://youtu.be/il0jeZR1_1s

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I know hes addressed this before, and I know his opinion isnt Canon, but just for kicks-


Star Wars Theory asked him:


https://youtu.be/il0jeZR1_1s

Nice if we could get footage of that.

He could easily say that McDairmid told him that Palpatine was secretly in love with Mace Windu.



And why are people at "Star Wars Celebration"? What's there to celebrate?

Their favorite Saga is actively being raped and destroyed right in front of them for the $$$ they supply.


They should call it "Star Wars Ironic Pseudo-Celebration" instead.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Nice if we could get footage of that.

He could easily say that McDairmid told him that Palpatine was secretly in love with Mace Windu.



And why are people at "Star Wars Celebration"? What's there to celebrate?

Their favorite Saga is actively being raped and destroyed right in front of them for the $$$ they supply.


They should call it "Star Wars Ironic Pseudo-Celebration" instead.

Dude, just because you personally dislike a thing doesn't mean everyone has to hate it. Calm down, get over yourself, and let other people enjoy the things they like. People like you, who try to actively ruin other people's enjoyment of things, are the worst part of any fanbase.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Dude, just because you personally dislike a thing doesn't mean everyone has to hate it. Calm down, get over yourself, and let other people enjoy the things they like. People like you, who try to actively ruin other people's enjoyment of things, are the worst part of any fanbase.

So if some liberal director made a movie where George Washington ran away from the British army and then got on his knees and sucked their dicks - that means patriotic people have to enjoy that movie?

Star Wars is being raped - what we have now is a mockery of the very Saga that people came to love.

There is nothing that Disney is doing that is worthy of celebration, dude. You should be able to easily see that.

I'm cool with people enjoying things - I like people being happy - but the fact they're happy about a Saga being shitted on and dropped in the dirt - is ironic at best.

And we know from the reactions to The Last Jedi and Solo that people like me make up 90% of the fanbase - so how can most of the fanbase make up the worst part of it?

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
So if some liberal director made a movie where George Washington ran away from the British army and then got on his knees and sucked their dicks - that means patriotic people have to enjoy that movie?

Star Wars is being raped - what we have now is a mockery of the very Saga that people came to love.

There is nothing that Disney is doing that is worthy of celebration, dude. You should be able to easily see that.

I'm cool with people enjoying things - I like people being happy - but the fact they're happy about a Saga being shitted on and dropped in the dirt - is ironic at best.

And we know from the reactions to The Last Jedi and Solo that people like me make up 90% of the fanbase - so how can most of the fanbase make up the worst part of it?

I think how he means, how you keep going on and on about how bad the new SW is, how it should be boycotted, sold off etc and that sort.

I'm not particularly thrilled about the new SW, but I'm not going around and saying people should stop enjoying it or boycott it or whatever.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
So if some liberal director made a movie where George Washington ran away from the British army and then got on his knees and sucked their dicks - that means patriotic people have to enjoy that movie?

Star Wars is being raped - what we have now is a mockery of the very Saga that people came to love.

There is nothing that Disney is doing that is worthy of celebration, dude. You should be able to easily see that.

I'm cool with people enjoying things - I like people being happy - but the fact they're happy about a Saga being shitted on and dropped in the dirt - is ironic at best.

And we know from the reactions to The Last Jedi and Solo that people like me make up 90% of the fanbase - so how can most of the fanbase make up the worst part of it?

Man, that is some heavy Strawmanning you just did. Where did I say you "have to" enjoy Disney's direction? Oh, right, I didn't. I just said you shouldn't shit on the people who do enjoy it.

"Star Wars is being raped." That's just like, your opinion, man. Need I remind you that people have been claiming Star Wars is being made a mockery of ever since '78? People have been calling Star Wars dead ever since it first came out, and it's still raking in billions. And calling it a mockery of everything that people have come to love? What about the people who love, oh, I don't know, The Clone Wars? You know, the countless fans who adored that series, and were begging Disney to revive it? Is it not okay for them to, oh, you know, celebrate? When Disney actually does revive it like they asked?

"There's nothing Disney is doing that is worthy of celebration." Again, your opinion. I'm thrilled that Clone Wars is coming back for Season 7. I've loved the Marvel Comics for the most part, which we're getting thanks to Disney. I'm really looking forward to Fallen Order, which genuinely looks like a fun single-player experience. I love how supportive Disney has been of the (non-toxic) fanbase, and how interactive they've been with the community. I'd say all of these things, on top of keeping Star Wars in the public eye and making sure it doesn't just fade into antiquity and become a dead franchise, is more than enough to be labeled "worthy of celebration."

"I'm cool with people enjoying things - I like people being happy - but the fact they're happy about a Saga being shitted on and dropped in the dirt - is ironic at best." Once more, that's your opinion, not "fact". I personally don't feel like the Saga is "being shitted on and dropped in the dirt," and I'm not alone in my viewpoint. Neither are you, of course, but the point stands that the Sequel Trilogy is divisive, not universally hated . There's a clear and distinct difference there. Some people genuinely love the direction The Last Jedi went, while others like myself are simply curious to see where things will go now that The Last Jedi has shaken up convention.


"And we know from the reactions to The Last Jedi and Solo that people like me make up 90% of the fanbase" Just because there is an overly loud part of the fanbase that happens to be overwhelmingly negative, that does not mean that the overwhelming opinion is negative. It's long held true that unhappy people tend to be exponentially louder than happy ones. How often do you sing praise to every little thing that satisfies you? Not very, I'm guessing. But how often do you bash on the things that disappoint you? Frequently, judging by this conversation. Going off of how much money The Last Jedi has made, it's impossible to call it a failure, despite the clear vocal minority that would like you to believe otherwise.

As for Solo, everyone I know in person who actually went to watch the movie has genuinely enjoyed it. Hell, it scratches a ton of itches for even several hard-core Legends fans I know, thanks to the countless easter eggs and tie-ins with Legends material, all while telling a fresh new story. The big issues with Solo were a severe lack of marketing, reshoots that more than doubled its original budget, and the unfortunate timing of being released around the same time as Infinity War, almost guaranteeing less people would go see it. Besides which, I feel that Star Wars fans in general are less interested in solo stories about Han, a character that several people I know simply don't care for or relate to in any way.

Honestly, it feels like you've got a serious case of nostalgia goggles going on. It seems like you're forgetting that Star Wars has been, and always will be, a franchise targeted mostly at children, with a heavy emphasis on merchandising, that has had countless "failures" and "disappointments" over it's now 4 decade run. If you feel like Star Wars is being raped just because the Sequel Trilogy isn't quite what you were hoping it would be, do I need to remind you how absolutely atrocious the Star Wars Holiday Special was? Or how bad the Ewok comics were? How poorly received the Yuuzhan Vong were? The sheer ridiculousness that was Stormtrooper zombies? The abomination that was Waru, and pretty much all of Crystal Star?

Again, get over yourself. You're allowed to dislike a thing, and other people are allowed to have a different opinion. Your opinion is not fact. Nobody's opinion is. This is all subjective, and if people want to celebrate and have fun and enjoy the direction Disney is going, you should just mind your own business and stop putting them down just because you disagree.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I think how he means, how you keep going on and on about how bad the new SW is, how it should be boycotted, sold off etc and that sort.

I'm not particularly thrilled about the new SW, but I'm not going around and saying people should stop enjoying it or boycott it or whatever.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Man, that is some heavy Strawmanning you just did. Where did I say you "have to" enjoy Disney's direction? Oh, right, I didn't. I just said you shouldn't shit on the people who do enjoy it.

"Star Wars is being raped." That's just like, your opinion, man. Need I remind you that people have been claiming Star Wars is being made a mockery of ever since '78? People have been calling Star Wars dead ever since it first came out, and it's still raking in billions. And calling it a mockery of everything that people have come to love? What about the people who love, oh, I don't know, The Clone Wars? You know, the countless fans who adored that series, and were begging Disney to revive it? Is it not okay for them to, oh, you know, celebrate? When Disney actually does revive it like they asked?

"There's nothing Disney is doing that is worthy of celebration." Again, your opinion. I'm thrilled that Clone Wars is coming back for Season 7. I've loved the Marvel Comics for the most part, which we're getting thanks to Disney. I'm really looking forward to Fallen Order, which genuinely looks like a fun single-player experience. I love how supportive Disney has been of the (non-toxic) fanbase, and how interactive they've been with the community. I'd say all of these things, on top of keeping Star Wars in the public eye and making sure it doesn't just fade into antiquity and become a dead franchise, is more than enough to be labeled "worthy of celebration."

"I'm cool with people enjoying things - I like people being happy - but the fact they're happy about a Saga being shitted on and dropped in the dirt - is ironic at best." Once more, that's your opinion, not "fact". I personally don't feel like the Saga is "being shitted on and dropped in the dirt," and I'm not alone in my viewpoint. Neither are you, of course, but the point stands that the Sequel Trilogy is divisive, not universally hated . There's a clear and distinct difference there. Some people genuinely love the direction The Last Jedi went, while others like myself are simply curious to see where things will go now that The Last Jedi has shaken up convention.


"And we know from the reactions to The Last Jedi and Solo that people like me make up 90% of the fanbase" Just because there is an overly loud part of the fanbase that happens to be overwhelmingly negative, that does not mean that the overwhelming opinion is negative. It's long held true that unhappy people tend to be exponentially louder than happy ones. How often do you sing praise to every little thing that satisfies you? Not very, I'm guessing. But how often do you bash on the things that disappoint you? Frequently, judging by this conversation. Going off of how much money The Last Jedi has made, it's impossible to call it a failure, despite the clear vocal minority that would like you to believe otherwise.

As for Solo, everyone I know in person who actually went to watch the movie has genuinely enjoyed it. Hell, it scratches a ton of itches for even several hard-core Legends fans I know, thanks to the countless easter eggs and tie-ins with Legends material, all while telling a fresh new story. The big issues with Solo were a severe lack of marketing, reshoots that more than doubled its original budget, and the unfortunate timing of being released around the same time as Infinity War, almost guaranteeing less people would go see it. Besides which, I feel that Star Wars fans in general are less interested in solo stories about Han, a character that several people I know simply don't care for or relate to in any way.

Honestly, it feels like you've got a serious case of nostalgia goggles going on. It seems like you're forgetting that Star Wars has been, and always will be, a franchise targeted mostly at children, with a heavy emphasis on merchandising, that has had countless "failures" and "disappointments" over it's now 4 decade run. If you feel like Star Wars is being raped just because the Sequel Trilogy isn't quite what you were hoping it would be, do I need to remind you how absolutely atrocious the Star Wars Holiday Special was? Or how bad the Ewok comics were? How poorly received the Yuuzhan Vong were? The sheer ridiculousness that was Stormtrooper zombies? The abomination that was Waru, and pretty much all of Crystal Star?

Again, get over yourself. You're allowed to dislike a thing, and other people are allowed to have a different opinion. Your opinion is not fact. Nobody's opinion is. This is all subjective, and if people want to celebrate and have fun and enjoy the direction Disney is going, you should just mind your own business and stop putting them down just because you disagree.
7T6LdokXvVc

This is Star Wars, now.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
7T6LdokXvVc

This is Star Wars, now.

So you're just a troll, copy that. I'll stop feeding you at once.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
So you're just a troll, copy that. I'll stop feeding you at once.

Nah - I was making a point.


Originally posted by Underachiever59
It seems like you're forgetting that Star Wars has been, and always will be, a franchise targeted mostly at children

Star Wars contains depictions of blood, people being burned alive and being mutilated and decapitated - it isn't aimed mostly at children.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b4c499dbf67bbd1778169764b1fb7314
https://img.cinemablend.com/quill/8/c/9/c/9/f/8c9c9fa75d90a8944496f61fa46a0a0cf6a91c70.jpg
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130210063803/starwars/images/b/b9/Dooku%27s_head_Flies_off.png


Originally posted by Underachiever59

I'm thrilled that Clone Wars is coming back for Season 7.

The CGI Shows are the only ones aimed specifically at the infantile - hell, even TCW Movie had a plot that revolved around Anakin's *Non-Canon apprentice babysitting a Hutt baby.

https://medias.spotern.com/spots/w640/62155-1532336916.jpg

TCW and Rebels are mostly aimed at children and adults with the minds of children.
https://horriblehousewife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Watching-the-new-Star-Wars-Rebels-DVD-with-her-Inquisitor-mask.-sparkrebellion-shop-650x975.jpg



Originally posted by Underachiever59
Need I remind you that people have been claiming Star Wars is being made a mockery of ever since '78? People have been calling Star Wars dead ever since it first came out

And nobody thought Star Wars was dead in '78 - everyone loved The Empire Strikes Back.

Solo sucked - which is why it flopped and hardly anyone saw it.

Again, The reaction to The Last Jedi and Solo are proof that 90% of fans hate this new fake franchise - it ain't just my opinion.


*
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-56bc955cf48a0fe8e3cf927bea27c107.webp


Mace: You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master.

Anakin: What? How can you do this? This is outrageous, it's unfair!

Mace: You failed to train your Padawan Ahsoka Tano to Knighthood - so you cannot be a Master.

Anakin: ...Who?

Anakin: If I had failed to train a Padawan, that seems like something Obi-wan would mention, right?

Mace: Well, true...

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Nice if we could get footage of that.

He could easily say that McDairmid told him that Palpatine was secretly in love with Mace Windu.




Hes addressed it a bit more discreetly in front of audiences before, where he hints the same thing, but stops just short of outright saying it.

Also Star Wars Theory is a sound dude. I highly doubt he just made that up.

I also specifically stated that even if Ian does say and believe that it doesnt make it Canon.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Hes addressed it a bit more discreetly in front of audiences before, where he hints the same thing, but stops just short of outright saying it.

Also Star Wars Theory is a sound dude. I highly doubt he just made that up.

That's fine, I don't really care.


Originally posted by Darth Thor

I also specifically stated that even if Ian does say and believe that it doesnt make it Canon.

Yeah, I never believed Palpatine threw the fight - the whole point of the existence of Vapaad is to explain why Mace beat Palpatine.

In the US decapitations and gore are more for kids than female tities.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

Yeah, I never believed Palpatine threw the fight - the whole point of the existence of Vapaad is to explain why Mace beat Palpatine.


I doubt Ian knows what Vapaad is.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I doubt Ian knows what Vapaad is.

If that's true, that would be funny.

Originally posted by Bentley
In the US decapitations and gore are more for kids than female tities.

You're thinking of teenagers.

Underachiever is implying the blood and gore in Star Wars is for little children.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
If that's true, that would be funny.

It probably is.

Sidious threw the fight end of story, Vaapaad isn't canon

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious threw the fight end of story, Vaapaad isn't canon

Some would say it's the reverse.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Some would say it's the reverse.

some would be wrong good sir euro

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious threw the fight end of story, Vaapaad isn't canon

The ability to channel Sith Lightning back into the user AKA the Superconducting-Loop is a technique unique to Vapaad only.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NiceVagueAmazonparrot-size_restricted.gif

The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.

- Also, how is Palpatine going to throw a fight when he's being blasted with supposedly lethal-amounts of Sith Lightning?

That's like allowing someone to shoot you in the face multiple times in order to win a gun duel.

Mace had him beat. Pure and simple. Palpatine needed Anakin to intervene, or he was dead.

Mace won.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The ability to channel Sith Lightning back into the user AKA the Superconducting-Loop is a technique unique to Vapaad only.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NiceVagueAmazonparrot-size_restricted.gif

The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.

- Also, how is Palpatine going to throw a fight when he's being blasted with supposedly lethal-amounts of Sith Lightning?

That's like allowing someone to shoot you in the face multiple times in order to win a gun duel.

Mace had him beat. Pure and simple. Palpatine needed Anakin to intervene, or he was dead.

Mace won.

To be honest, they never interpreted Vaapad as the technique which allowed Windu to deflect Sidious' Force lightning. They thought it as being a Force power mirror. They thought the only reason Windu was fast as Palpatine in the Revenge Of The Sith novel is due to Vaapad.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
To be honest, they never interpreted Vaapad as the technique which allowed Windu to deflect Sidious' Force lightning. They thought it as being a Force power mirror. They thought the only reason Windu was fast as Palpatine in the Revenge Of The Sith novel is due to Vaapad.

The wiki and Novelization actually both describe Vapaad as the ability to channel Dark Side energy through Mace and back into the target:


He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But- Neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standign wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shilds, sliced into segments that whriled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Vapaad was indeed the sole reason for Mace to channel Sidious's Sith Lightning back into him.

- Even Yoda can't do that against Sidious with a lightsaber:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5670132-8928654724-giphy.gif

Only Mace and his Vapaad can:
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif

I know. I just said that most fans think Vaapad is an universal Force power mirror. Not that it is particularly related to Force lightning based attacks.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The wiki and Novelization actually both describe Vapaad as the ability to channel Dark Side energy through Mace and back into the target:


He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But- Neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standign wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shilds, sliced into segments that whriled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Vapaad was indeed the sole reason for Mace to channel Sidious's Sith Lightning back into him.

- Even Yoda can't do that against Sidious with a lightsaber:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5670132-8928654724-giphy.gif

Only Mace and his Vapaad can:
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif

That's because Yoda got caught flat footed.

"YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber."

The screenplay clearly shows Yoda as capable of deflecting Sidious' lightning.

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

And Yoda's positioning on the pod lost him the fight. Even then, Sidious got sent back as well.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah the initial blast pushed Mace back as well... Difference was Yoda was on the edge of the senate pod, so had to let his Saber go.

That said, Yoda still deflected the Lightning with his hands.

Mace was fighting on a slippery ledge in a thunderstorm and Sidious's Lightning still couldn't do anything to him.

When Yoda tried to deflect Sidious's Lightning with his hands, Yoda got ragdolled.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
And Yoda's positioning on the pod lost him the fight. Even then, Sidious got sent back as well.

In retrospect, it's really the fact that Yoda failed to deflect Sidious's Lightning that lost him the fight.

If Yoda had been able to bounce Sidious Lightning into him like Mace could:

https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeNeighboringGuineapig-max-1mb.gif

He'd have won.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

The screenplay clearly shows Yoda as capable of deflecting Sidious' lightning.
The film clearly shows Yoda as trying to deflect Sidious's Lightning and ultimately getting blasted into the air by it in the process.

Meanwhile the film also shows Mace deflect Sidious's Lighting on a ledge in a thunderstorm - and unlike Yoda - Sidious's Lightning can't touch Mace.
https://im.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-1-d76922f4d3e8.gif
Again - Mace is immune to that - thanks to Vapaad.
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeNeighboringGuineapig-max-1mb.gif



Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's because Yoda got caught flat footed.

"YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber."

Nice try - but whatever screenplay you're using doesn't match what's in the film:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5670132-8928654724-giphy.gif

In the film, Yoda already had his feet planted on the Podium and was balanced - but Mace Windu was fighting on a slipperly ledge in a windy thunderstorm:

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hand, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

So Yoda didn't get caught flat-footed.

Mace was deflecting Sidious's lightning on a slippery ledge in the wind and rain and Sidious Lightning still couldn't touch him.

Yoda was normally-positioned when Sidious fired his Lightning - but Yoda can't redirect Sidious's Lightning like Mace can.

And when Yoda used his hands to try to redirect the Lightning - Yoda got touched and blasted by it.

So yes, even Yoda with a lightsaber or no lightsaber cannot deflect Sidious's Lightning successfully like Mace can:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5670132-8928654724-giphy.gif
https://im.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-1-d76922f4d3e8.gif
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeNeighboringGuineapig-max-1mb.gif
Yoda lost because he couldn't deflect Sidious's lightning with a lightsaber or without one - and Mace won because he could.

Didn't Yoda absorb Dooku's Force lightning blast and directed it back at him?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I know. I just said that most fans think Vaapad is an universal Force power mirror. Not that it is particularly related to Force lightning based attacks.

You are correct that Vapaad is a Force mirror - that is good analogy.

However Vapaad is related to channeling and redirecting Dark Side energy - including Lightning-based attacks.

It's so effective that Sidious's Lightning can't even touch Mace.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Didn't Yoda absorb Dooku's Force lightning blast and directed it back at him?

Yes he did.

But Sidious's Lightning is far more powerful than Dooku's - and Sidious's Lightning was too much for Yoda to handle.

Only Mace was capable of successfully deflecting Sidious's Lightning back into him.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Yes he did.

But Sidious's Lightning is far more powerful than Dooku's - and Sidious's Lightning was too much for Yoda to handle.

Only Mace was capable of successfully deflecting Sidious's Lightning back into him.

I see. You are talking about unlimited Force lightning torrents being the only solution to reflect with Vaapad.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I see. You are talking about unlimited Force lightning torrents being the only solution to reflect with Vaapad.

Exactly - Vapaad was Mace's answer to that whole problem.

Once Mace knew that the Sith had returned, he specifically engineered Vapaad as the means of stopping them.

And he would have done that, too - had it not been for Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Mace was fighting on a slippery ledge in a thunderstorm and Sidious's Lightning still couldn't do anything to him.



Their fight took place indoors and not slippery (in the film).

I wouldnt call screaming and struggling against his blade as doing nothing.

Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod. Just as the initial blast pushed Mace back, Yoda could have fallen off if he tried to hang on to his Saber.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211


When Yoda tried to deflect Sidious's Lightning with his hands, Yoda got ragdolled.


They were both ragdolled. Point being Yoda didnt even need his Saber to compete against Sids Lightning.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Their fight took place indoors and not slippery (in the film).

It's been implied there was a storm on Coruscant during their duel - even in the RotS video game, too.

When the office window got blown out, the final part of their duel took place on the ledge - where there was wind, apparently rain and a half-kilometer drop next to where Mace was standing - it wasn't all indoors and the implied-storm meant the ledge would be slippery.



Originally posted by Darth Thor

I wouldnt call screaming and struggling against his blade as doing nothing.

Way better than Yoda being tooled, ragdolled and defeated by Sidious.




Originally posted by Darth Thor

Yoda was on the edge of a Senate Pod. Just as the initial blast pushed Mace back, Yoda could have fallen off if he tried to hang on to his Saber.

Yoda couldn't hang onto his saber because he couldn't handle Sidious's Lightning - Mace could.




Originally posted by Darth Thor

They were both ragdolled. Point being Yoda didnt even need his Saber to compete against Sids Lightning.

Yoda's saber got blasted out of his hands because he couldn't handle Sidious's Lightning, like Mace could.

And when Yoda tried to compete against Sidious's Lightning with his hands - he still lost.

Mace and his Vapaad are clearly superior against Sidious and his Lightning.

for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Originally posted by relentless1
for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
The ability to channel Sith Lightning back into the user AKA the Superconducting-Loop is a technique unique to Vapaad only.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NiceVagueAmazonparrot-size_restricted.gif

The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.

- Also, how is Palpatine going to throw a fight when he's being blasted with supposedly lethal-amounts of Sith Lightning?

That's like allowing someone to shoot you in the face multiple times in order to win a gun duel.

Mace had him beat. Pure and simple. Palpatine needed Anakin to intervene, or he was dead.

Mace won.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Exactly - Vapaad was Mace's answer to that whole problem.

Once Mace knew that the Sith had returned, he specifically engineered Vapaad as the means of stopping them.

And he would have done that, too - had it not been for Anakin Skywalker.

Ahsoka Tano isn't a thing in the films - she's not real.

Revenge Of The Sith establishes that Obi-wan Kenobi and General Grevious had never fought each other prior to the Battle Of Utapau.

TCW show directly contradicts that - meaning Ahsoka isn't real.

Meaning that by extension, the Rebels show isn't real, either.

I like how Disney decides to continue the only Star Wars stories that are Non-Canon, besides TOR.

Originally posted by relentless1
Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin


Or it could have happened simply because they were 2 different fights, in 2 different settings under different circumstances.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Ahsoka Tano isn't a thing in the films - she's not real.

Revenge Of The Sith establishes that Obi-wan Kenobi and General Grevious had never fought each other prior to the Battle Of Utapau.

TCW show directly contradicts that - meaning Ahsoka isn't real.

Meaning that by extension, the Rebels show isn't real, either.


TCW was Lucas creation so it is real. As in its Lucas Canon.

Rebels goes into Disney territory and becomes Disney Canon.

Both however are Filoni Canon, (if anyone cares about that).

the target audience of something isn't remotely relevant to the quality of its writing. This is why wall-e remains a masterpiece while transformers does not.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
the target audience of something isn't remotely relevant to the quality of its writing. This is why wall-e remains a masterpiece while transformers does not.


Think youve posted this in the wrong thread. But yes, Bingo.

No idea why people are getting into arguments over what age group the movies were aimed at.

Like how people are acting like Sidious beat Yoda... Their power mutually overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only losing due to being lighter (and thus was thrown further) and being positionally disadvantaged (he was standing on the edge of the pod). In the movie and script, it is blatantly apparent Yoda is Sidious's equal or superior.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Like how people are acting like Sidious beat Yoda... Their power mutually overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only losing due to being lighter (and thus was thrown further) and being positionally disadvantaged (he was standing on the edge of the pod). In the movie and script, it is blatantly apparent Yoda is Sidious's equal or superior.

in saber combat yes, its implied that Yoda disarmed Sidious but again that's terrain taking effect too; Sidious' movements were seriously hampered in the Chancellors pod

In Force ability its clear that Sidious is above Yoda; Yoda couldn't throe the pods as easily as Sidious and he was overwhelmed by Sidious' lightning. Granted he made one last rally to block the lightning with his hands but its obvious that that was his last stand evidenced by the fact that he retreated and even said aloud to Bail Organa that he had failed his mission; destroy the Sith

the movie goes out of its way to demonstrate Yoda and Sidious as equals, tbh

first Palpatine knocks down Yoda with the Force via sudden attack
then Yoda does the same
then Sidious pushes Yoda back with the pods
then Yoda pushes Sidious back with the pods
then they overpower each other simultaneously with Sidious having a better position

Sidious was throwing the pods DOWN

Yoda was pushing his pod UP so his effort had to be multiplied by gravitational constant lol

Wall-E was a crap film.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Like how people are acting like Sidious beat Yoda... Their power mutually overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only losing due to being lighter (and thus was thrown further) and being positionally disadvantaged (he was standing on the edge of the pod). In the movie and script, it is blatantly apparent Yoda is Sidious's equal or superior.


Yep.

Originally posted by relentless1
for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin

Vapaad was cemented in multiple sources as being ultimately responsible for Mace defeating Sidious.

Why do you think Vapaad "isn't a thing"? Because of fvcking Disney?

Give me a fvcking break.

Originally posted by relentless1




Conjecture. For starters, Sidious being solely hindered by the environment is not mentioned in any source and it's essentially just Sidious fans making excuses for his loss. The JN even states that the environment dangerous for both of them. Moreover, Yoda was pushing Sidious back long before they fought on the podium. It's noted Sidious took "refuge" (Source: ROTS Script) in the Senate chamber with "refuge" meaning "the state of being safe or sheltered from pursuit, danger, or difficulty" (Source: Google) i.e. Sidious was losing and was forced to retreat. Hell Yoda was displayed as superior in sabers in the film as well when he overpowered Sidious in two separate blade locks.



Yoda couldn't throw the senate pods as easily because he had gravity against him not because Sidious was stronger. As for the final Lightning clash if you pay attention to their respective facial expressions Yoda is clearly overpowering Sidious in the final clash and only lost for the reasons I mentioned previously (positional disadvantages and weighing less).

As for evidence to Yoda's superiority in Force Power you have the blade locks I mentioned earlier. Yoda given he's at least 3 times smaller than Sidious and nowhere near as physically able he should not be able to overpower him in blade locks yet he does displaying superior augmentative ability meaning he likely possesses superior reserves. He was also clearly overpowering Sidious in one of their earlier lightning clashes in the script also suggesting he's superior:

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts. The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed. "

Overall there is substantial evidence for Yoda being superior to Sidious in both sabers and Force Power (their blade locks and both their Force Clashes).



Yeah, he failed because he lost the fight and because there was no second chance at killing Sidious. This doesn't prove he's less powerful than the latter and shouldn't be used as an argument to Sidious's superiority when all evidence points the opposite way.

Also, are people seriously acting like Mace is superior to Yoda? Lmao.

Originally posted by HP Legend
Also, are people seriously acting like Mace is superior to Yoda? Lmao.

Mace and Yoda are at least equal as swordsmen.

Yoda has (somewhat) greater strength in the Force - but Mace has the ability to see and strike Shatterpoints.

Add in Vapaad, and Mace and Yoda are equals - especially since Mace could frankly defeat Sidious - whereas Yoda couldn't.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Vapaad was cemented in multiple sources as being ultimately responsible for Mace defeating Sidious.

Why do you think Vapaad "isn't a thing"? Because of fvcking Disney?

Give me a fvcking break.

show me in the films where Vaapad or any style for that matter is mentioned; these aspects are apart of the extended canon which has been wiped unfortunately for you

Originally posted by relentless1
show me in the films where Vaapad or any style for that matter is mentioned; these aspects are apart of the extended canon which has been wiped unfortunately for you

So your answer is "duuur, Disney"?

Nick Gillard discusses Jedi/Sith fighting styles in the fvcking making of these films, you idiot.


The Lightsaber Forms of the Jedi and Sith were created by Nick Gillard, and they are very much part of the PT.

Disney is corporate-fan-fiction and garbage - and if you support it, then you've already ripped up your man-card and Star Wars fan-card, and you've lost.

Originally posted by relentless1
show me in the films where Vaapad or any style for that matter is mentioned; these aspects are apart of the extended canon which has been wiped unfortunately for you


Lightsaber forms 3&4 have been mentioned in Rebels. And have all been confirmed as existing in Disney Eu.

And its pretty clear from TCW and Rebels that Obi-Wan is primarily a defensive combatant (form 3).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Lightsaber forms 3&4 have been mentioned in Rebels. And have all been confirmed as existing in Disney Eu.

And its pretty clear from TCW and Rebels that Obi-Wan is primarily a defensive combatant (form 3).

interesting, i never watched much rebels so that'd be the first time its mentioned in canon

even if the styes are canon it changes nothing, the was no explicit use of shatter point or vaapad in the film itself and if youre going to start extrapolating that from what you see on screen then I can do the exact same thing with on screen cues that support Sidious taking a dive in that fight as well

^ I mean if the styles are canon, why would you assume Vapaad and Shatterpoint are not. In general Disney Canon is adopting the old EU. It only leaves the background of certain characters open, so they are free to explore it themselves.

But Things dont have to be specifically mentioned in a film to make it Canon to the films.

That said the nature of how Vapaad works was always pretty merky even in the old EU. But all we need to know is that Mace was a top tier duelist alongside Yoda and Palpatine, and that Vapaad (an extremely lethal style that skirts the dark side), was his form.

Originally posted by relentless1
interesting, i never watched much rebels so that'd be the first time its mentioned in canon

even if the styes are canon it changes nothing, the was no explicit use of shatter point or vaapad in the film itself and if youre going to start extrapolating that from what you see on screen then I can do the exact same thing with on screen cues that support Sidious taking a dive in that fight as well

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211



Gillard and Lucas disagree.



Glad you admit Yoda is a more powerful Force User.



Given all available evidence, Yoda is superior to Sidious in both sabers and Force Power and only lost due to environmental disadvantages. As for Mace never defeated Sidious in any sense of the word. Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless.

^
Perhaps, perhaps not.

Not sure if I am correct, but this Lucas' line was an answer to Knoll's "Look at this - Mace brought the B-team!".
So it might be indeed treat as a statement that is about equality between Sidious and Yoda / Mace, but it as well may just means that both, Yoda and Mace are on mych higher level then any member of B-team or any Jedi overall. And that they can compete with him, hold their own, but in the end, they are not able to defeat him. Or just one of them.
Just like both, Anakin and Obi-Wan could compete with Dooku, as none of them was blitzed by him. But could Obi-Wan defeat him in a single duel? That's debatable.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211



Not what I was referring to. I was talking about Mace being "an 8 bordering on a 9" on Gillard and Lucas's tiering system compared to Yoda being a 9. It's clear both Gillard and Lucas view Mace as inferior to Yoda in Lightsaber combat. For Force Power, I'll elaborate in a bit.



Or alternatively, you shouldn't baselessly assume which quotes I'm referring to.






Kek. The quote you brought up is referring to Count Dooku being Mace's equal on neutral ground, not Yoda:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous



The fact that Mace can compete with Sidious doesn't preclude him from being below Yoda.



The quote you referenced is in-universe making it more subject to scrutiny and if Yoda is blatantly portrayed as more powerful in other material the quote should be dismissed. Not that Fact File quotes even overrule G-Canon evidence anyway.



Well yes I'd say so given according to Gillard and Lucas Yoda is a better saber duellist and there's a comparison between the two in Force Power which clearly demonstrates Yoda is more powerful.



Because of environmental and other circumstantial factors beyond the control of the former as I've explained already in this thread. Yoda proved he was better when he overpowered Sidious in multiple blade locks, pushed him back in sabers, disarmed him and nearly overpowered him in two seperate Force clashes.



Yeah Lucas disagrees:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

-Revenge of the Sith Commentary

Originally posted by HP Legend
Not what I was referring to. I was talking about Mace being "an 8 bordering on a 9" on Gillard and Lucas's tiering system compared to Yoda being a 9. It's clear both Gillard and Lucas view Mace as inferior to Yoda in Lightsaber combat. For Force Power, I'll elaborate in a bit.

No, they don't.

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine.On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

Ultimately Gillard decided Mace and Yoda are both 9s and that Mace is equal with Sidious.

So does George Lucas:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204




Originally posted by HP Legend

Or alternatively, you shouldn't baselessly assume which quotes I'm referring to.

Or alternatively, you should still pay attention to where you're pulling your quotes from since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious.



Originally posted by HP Legend

Kek. The quote you brought up is referring to Count Dooku being Mace's equal on neutral ground, not Yoda:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

Kek - actually the quote I brought up implies that Dooku knew that he and Mace were on Yoda's level - implying that Yoda and Mace are also equals.

And Yoda: Dark Rendezvous takes place 19BBY - the very same year that Mace Windu defeats Sidious in combat and Yoda loses to Sidious.
https://media.giphy.com/media/dBqyq7vDEV8fv1OF2X/giphy.gif
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif




Originally posted by HP Legend

The fact that Mace can compete with Sidious doesn't preclude him from being below Yoda.
Nick Gillard and George Lucas disagree with you:

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine.On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204


Originally posted by HP Legend

The quote you referenced is in-universe making it more subject to scrutiny and if Yoda is blatantly portrayed as more powerful in other material the quote should be dismissed. Not that Fact File quotes even overrule G-Canon evidence anyway.
The Fact-File had George Lucas's blessing - and even George Lucas agrees that Mace and Yoda are equals.



Originally posted by HP Legend

Well yes I'd say so given according to Gillard and Lucas Yoda is a better saber duellist and there's a comparison between the two in Force Power which clearly demonstrates Yoda is more powerful.

Really? Let's review what they have to say on the matter:

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine.On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Nope, according to Gillard and Lucas, Yoda is not the better saber duelist and in fact Yoda and Mace are both equals.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Because of environmental and other circumstantial factors beyond the control of the former as I've explained already in this thread. Yoda proved he was better when he overpowered Sidious in multiple blade locks, pushed him back in sabers, disarmed him and nearly overpowered him in two seperate Force clashes.
Yeah - and Mace did all the same things - only difference is - Mace didn't get ragdolled like Yoda did.
https://media.giphy.com/media/dBqyq7vDEV8fv1OF2X/giphy.gif
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Originally posted by HP Legend

Yeah Lucas disagrees:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

-Revenge of the Sith Commentary

And here's the additional George Lucas commentary that clears up the murkiness of the previous one:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

So according to Nick Gillard and George Lucas, Palpatine didn't throw the fight - Mace won and Yoda and Mace ARE equals.

HP, would you like some mayonnaise with that foot in your mouth? I can give you some of my mayonnaise - and it's non-dairy!

Lol, I'll respond tomorrow or the day after.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211




Their tiering system says otherwise.



Gillard didn't decide anything. He originally said Mace was a 9 sure but later clarified Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9 as I already said. He's nearly a 9 and is thus up there with Sidious though he isn't equal with him or Yoda.

Side Note: The fact that Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are on the same tier (if I acknowledge Mace is a 9 even though he isn't) in terms of Lightsaber prowess does not make them equals.

Also, I don't necessarily need the tiering system to put Yoda above Mace given there's already a comparison which puts Yoda ahead of him in sabers anyway. Mace fought Sheev to a standstill and was at an "impasse" with him for a solid minute and only won through using Sheev's fear against him while Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute.



For the last time, Lucas saying both Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious does not make them equals. It only suggests their on a similar level in terms of fighting prowess which is a notion I never contested.



Or alternatively, you should learn to read.



No, it doesn't. For starters, the quote you brought up is from Yoda's perspective not Dooku's. Secondly I'm not sure where you're getting the idea from that it says Dooku and Mace are on Yoda's level.

Here is the quote:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

It clearly says that Mace and Dooku are equals and doesn't make a single mention of Yoda being relative to either. Please underline where it implies Mace=Yoda.



1. Irrelevant detail I already knew where the quote was from.

2. Lol, imagine ignoring all context to both scenarios. I'm not even going to bother going over it again because it's a waste of time. Just read my previous posts in the thread.

Gonna skip over most of the irrelevant stuff where you bring up the same two statements again to avoid repetition and making these posts longer than they need to be.



Proof it had George's blessing? Regardless it's still in-universe and subject to scrutiny.



1. Mace never overpowered Sidious in a blade lock.

2. Mace did not push Sheev back in sabers. They were at an "impasse" before Mace used Sheev's fear against him. He didn't overpower Sheev through superior technical skill or Force Power.

3. The final Force Clash is brought up again at the end of your post. I'll go over it then.



This doesn't clear anything up. The quote regarding them competing with Sidious has been addressed and the start of the quote doesn't prove your point. It says Mace was winning when Anakin arrived which is a no brainer given Sidious was disarmed and on the floor. However, Sidious recovers with a blast of Lightning and was about to overpower Mace per the novelization before he feigned weakness so he could complete Anakin's fall as George said in both my quote and the quote you provided:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

This to tie back into my original point is in direct contrast to how Yoda was overpowering Sidious in both their Force Clashes.

To be honest, it could just mean Palpatine lost, but he could have fought from there on, but chose not to.

That does not mean Palpatine was not bested. It just means he still had enough power to carry on the fight.

But then, these ranking systems s***k anyways.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Their tiering system says otherwise.
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine.On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

Yeah, their tiering system doesn't say otherwise - their tiering system says Mace and Yoda are equals.



Originally posted by HP Legend

Gillard didn't decide anything. He originally said Mace was a 9 sure but later clarified Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9 as I already said. He's nearly a 9 and is thus up there with Sidious though he isn't equal with him or Yoda.

Side Note: The fact that Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are on the same tier (if I acknowledge Mace is a 9 even though he isn't) in terms of Lightsaber prowess does not make them equals.

Also, I don't necessarily need the tiering system to put Yoda above Mace given there's already a comparison which puts Yoda ahead of him in sabers anyway. Mace fought Sheev to a standstill and was at an "impasse" with him for a solid minute and only won through using Sheev's fear against him while Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute.

Gillard ultimately decided that Mace is a 9:
As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine.On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious.
The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

Gillard says you are wrong.

Also, your opinion means nothing.

And show me where "Yoda legitimately disarmed Sidious in under a minute."

Mace overpowered Sidious in a blade lock - successfully re-directed his Lightning and had him beaten - while Yoda got sent flying like a ragdoll.






Originally posted by HP Legend

For the last time, Lucas saying both Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious does not make them equals. It only suggests their on a similar level in terms of fighting prowess which is a notion I never contested.

That makes them equals - duh.




Originally posted by HP Legend

Or alternatively, you should learn to read.

Or alternatively, you should learn to read, since you weren't aware of Gillard's final-judgement on Mace's tier-level as being a 9 and equal to Darth Sidious.



Originally posted by HP Legend

Here is the quote:

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

-Yoda: Dark Rendevous

It clearly says that Mace and Dooku are equals and doesn't make a single mention of Yoda being relative to either. Please underline where it implies Mace=Yoda.

We already know Mace is relative to Yoda, since Mace beats Sidious - whereas Yoda can't.

Dooku says that Mace is equal to him, and Dooku was already shown to be equal to Yoda as a swordsman in AotC.

So if Dooku is equal to Yoda in speed, and Mace is at least equal to Yoda in speed, if not greater, then they are equals.




Originally posted by HP Legend
Gonna skip over most of the irrelevant stuff where you bring up the same two statements again to avoid repetition and making these posts longer than they need to be.

I could skip over your entire response - since it's pretty much gibberish.

It's already obvious that with Vapaad, Mace and Yoda are equals - you're so rusty with your Star Wars Lore that you didn't even know that Mace overpowers Sidious during their duel.

Originally posted by HP Legend

Proof it had George's blessing? Regardless it's still in-universe and subject to scrutiny.

If it's in Canon, it has George Lucas's blessing.



Originally posted by HP Legend

1. Mace never overpowered Sidious in a blade lock.
2. Mace did not push Sheev back in sabers. They were at an "impasse" before Mace used Sheev's fear against him. He didn't overpower Sheev through superior technical skill or Force Power.
3. The final Force Clash is brought up again at the end of your post. I'll go over it then.
RrekLjuJ4Lc
1:00 to 1:10

Mace Windu overpowers Darth Sidious in a blade lock.

Wow, HP you are clueless.



Originally posted by HP Legend

This doesn't clear anything up. The quote regarding them competing with Sidious has been addressed and the start of the quote doesn't prove your point. It says Mace was winning when Anakin arrived which is a no brainer given Sidious was disarmed and on the floor. However, Sidious recovers with a blast of Lightning and was about to overpower Mace per the novelization before he feigned weakness so he could complete Anakin's fall as George said in both my quote and the quote you provided:

"The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204


Nah - your assertion is that Sidious threw the whole fight.

Now you're admitting Mace disarmed Sidious and had him beaten on the floor.

- Now you're trying to say that Sidious was deliberately having lethal-amounts of Lightning bounced back into his face.

Vapaad already exists for that technique to occur - Sidious getting hit with lethal amounts of Lightning that could kill him wasn't part of the plan - unless you can prove Sidious knew about Vapaad.

Sidious was dying (lethal Lightning) - he just wanted Anakin to intervene.

So Mace with Vapaad is equal to (or greater) than Yoda.

And Mace did indeed defeat Sidious.


Originally posted by HP Legend

This to tie back into my original point is in direct contrast to how Yoda was overpowering Sidious in both their Force Clashes.

Yoda tried to overpower Sidious with the Force and got ragdolled.
https://media.giphy.com/media/dBqyq7vDEV8fv1OF2X/giphy.gif
Mace successfully overpowered Sidious with the Force and was killing him.
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctycj.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeNeighboringGuineapig-max-1mb.gif

Apparently simply re-posting your original claim is legitimate evidence...

I'll get down to addressing this next weekend. I don't have the time or energy right now.

Sidious loses?! Are you an idiot?!

Originally posted by relentless1
for the umpteenth time, vaapaad isn't a thing in the films; its not real. What is real though is Mace being known as Yodas second; Sidious beat Yoda and Mace "beat" Sidious? That can only happen if Sidious threw the fight which makes perfect sense from a storytelling perspective as he needed to force a choice from Anakin No, this is ridiculous. It is a matchup or style issue with the terrain being different. Anakin was more powerful than Kenobi yet still lost. Quit trying to headcanon the facts away so you deal with reality.

Originally posted by gold slorg
the movie goes out of its way to demonstrate Yoda and Sidious as equals, tbh

first Palpatine knocks down Yoda with the Force via sudden attack
then Yoda does the same
then Sidious pushes Yoda back with the pods
then Yoda pushes Sidious back with the pods
then they overpower each other simultaneously with Sidious having a better position Only the biased think they are not equals in force power. Winning a fight is not always proof of superior power just superior fighting ability in that particular situation.

Been working on other posts. I'll get down to a response sometime during the week.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211

Finally got down to responding. This might be my last response on the topic as well because quite frankly I've lost any enthusiasm I had during this debate and I'd rather spend my time doing other things. Anyway enjoy:




Mace and Yoda being on the same tier doesn't make them equals. For example, Jinn and Kenobi circa TPM are stated to be on the same tier yet we can clearly see based on their performances against Maul that they aren't equals. The same holds true for Yoda and Sidious.



Gillard said this in 2008 yet clarified in 2017 that Mace was an 8 bordering on a 9. If you treat the statements as contradictory then the later one takes precedence which would be my quote. So no Mace isn't on Yoda's tier.



It's referenced in both the ROTS Script and Junior Novelization.



1. Mace didn't overpower Sidious in a bladelock. He pushed Sidious's blade downwards while the latter was in a poor position. Sidious recovered and actually matched Mace's augmentative strength.

2. Mace's attempt to re-direct Sidious's Lightning wasn't a smashing success. He strained massively to do and was on the verge of getting overpowered per the novelization and comic.

3. Yoda got sent flying because their power overloaded. Before this however, Yoda was clearly beginning to get the better of Sidious.



Entirely unsubstantiated. The fact that they can both keep up with Sidious does not make them equals given that we can clearly see one of them (Windu) is Sidious's combative inferior and that the other (Yoda) is Sidious's combative superior.



Utter nonsense as I previously explained.



The quote is from Yoda's POV for starters not, Dooku's. Secondly, Dooku isn't equal to Yoda in AOTC. Dooku gets stonewalled by Yoda, pushed back and then retreats. Not to mention the quote in question suggests Dooku is potentially better than Windu by noting that Windu is "perhaps" equal to Dooku. The "perhaps" in the sentence indicates uncertainty of Windu is equal to Dooku implying Dooku's superiority.



Lucas doesn't even know like anything about the EU or Fact Files lmao. It being canon doesn't mean it has Lucas's blessing. Regardless it's still an IU quote and subject to scrutiny as I previously stated.



Addressed previously in my post.



When did I ever say this? My original quote was this:

"Yeah sure he disarmed Sidious (whether or not Sidious let him is up for debate but I won't get too much into that now) however it's clear Sidious was still holding him off with Lightning and was on the verge of overpowering him before he pretended to be weak and powerless."

I said whether or not he legitimately disarmed Sidious is up for debate and there isn't conclusive evidence either way. My claim with concrete proof is that Sidious feigned weakness in the Lightning clash which is corroborated by Lucas himself as you've so kindly quoted. Not to use your own words: "go clean your glasses".



I never said that Sidious getting hit by lethal Lightning was part of the plan. I said that Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Mace (corroborated by two sources) and feigned weakness to the Lightning to get Anakin to join the Dark Side.



Addressed and debunked.