Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11136/111369603/6827444-abstract%20entities.jpg

vs

https://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~lgardner/images/endless.jpg

there was a discussion between me and Astner

the thread was deleted because of forum glitch

permission to keep this thread open so I can continue this discussion with Astner

because it's actually a quite interesting topic

So was there a reason why my post was deleted in that other thread? Out of the 15 responses in that thread mine seems to have vanished. And then apparently the entire thread followed too. Is there a reason for that or that's the norm now that active threads and posts get deleted for no reason?

Ah, so Galan's a mod now. Yeah now everything's starting to make sense.

haven't seen you much lately. nice to see you post. you've missed some interesting talk the last 3 weeks or so. lol recent jl events, the superman moratorium--a multiversal upheaval in kmc. not hard to believe though. i've only recently noticed how closely kmc's own cosmology parallels dc's: perpetua=raz, world forger=bada, monitor=pr and the anti-monitor=galan.

mmm

I've frequented the forum on very rare occasions but just... wasn't interested in debating that much. And yes, im aware of the recent developments in DC btw. Bet the superman fans are having the time of their lives.

Originally posted by operator616


I've frequented the forum on very rare occasions but just... wasn't interested in debating that much. And yes, im aware of the recent developments in DC btw. Bet the superman fans are having the time of their lives.

nope, superman threads are banned

Originally posted by operator616
So was there a reason why my post was deleted in that other thread? Out of the 15 responses in that thread mine seems to have vanished. And then apparently the entire thread followed too. Is there a reason for that or that's the norm now that active threads and posts get deleted for no reason?

First I want to say, it is good having you back. Second, if someone deleted his post, that isnt right, at all.

Originally posted by operator616


I've frequented the forum on very rare occasions but just... wasn't interested in debating that much. And yes, im aware of the recent developments in DC btw. Bet the superman fans are having the time of their lives.

lol yeah, it's been...a bit over over-the-top--and i'm a superman fan! lol

Originally posted by MrMind
nope, superman threads are banned

Seriously? Im assuming because of flame-wars after JL 25?

Originally posted by carver9
First I want to say, it is good having you back. Second, if someone deleted his post, that isnt right, at all.

Thanks.

You know i thought it was particularly weird because a few minutes after i posted, my post literally vanished as if it had not existed at all. And what's even weirder the posts above and below mine were still intact.

I thought... i was hallucinating for a second, so decided to get a good's night sleep. I wake up and the entire thread is gone. WTF!! It's like the universe is conspiring against me not once, but twice.

my entire cosmology thread is...gone.

Damn. I remember that thread. It was one of the best.

I get blamed for everything.

We like you a lot Galan. You're the first name to pop up in our heads which makes it even easier to blame you.

Originally posted by Galan007
I get blamed for everything.

in my defense i suggested you were in cahoots with bada and pr.

Originally posted by carver9
We like you a lot Galan. You're the first name to pop up in our heads which makes it even easier to blame you. Awww, thanks carv.


https://i.imgur.com/F47WrwD.png

Originally posted by leonidas
in my defense i suggested you were in cahoots with bada and pr. I still blame REX.

In a Hulk issue, it was revealed that Marvel's Death is the same Death from the Endless so who's team is she fighting on lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
In a Hulk issue, it was revealed that Marvel's Death is the same Death from the Endless so who's team is she fighting on lol

except parody doesn't count for anything

death of the endless is outerversal like I mentioned above, marvel death is universal/multiversal

The Endless are on a infinitely higher dimension plane

the concept of higher plane doesn't auto-translate to overall power though. just because the cosmologies are set up differently, doesn't mean that a higher plane entity in dc>top of the marvel food chain. at all.

take the highest incarnation of death in marvel--maybe the multiversal embodiment--and that level of death (or whatever) would equate to dc's death--both are supreme within their purview, and in a neutral setting they would/should be seen as equals.

and suggesting that the dark multiverse=the entire marvel omniverse makes no sense either....

Pretty much.

Like i said in my now non-existent post, in terms of cosmology everything one posts for DC can also be found in Marvel (literally scan for scan). And vice versa. Lowballing one company to make the other one look better is a tactic we're all too familiar with. And two can play this game.

Originally posted by leonidas
the concept of higher plane doesn't auto-translate to overall power though. just because the cosmologies are set up differently, doesn't mean that a higher plane entity in dc>top of the marvel food chain. at all.

take the highest incarnation of death in marvel--maybe the multiversal embodiment--and that level of death (or whatever) would equate to dc's death--both are supreme within their purview, and in a neutral setting they would/should be seen as equals.

and suggesting that the dark multiverse=the entire marvel omniverse makes no sense either....
Not really. You can match on theory only for so long. Marvel Death has too many low feats and is decidedly universal as shown in Thanos Imperative.

DC Death is far superior to marvel Death.

Also being bigger than an entire dimension or multiverse DO relate to power, that's how Beyonder was so powerful and Darkseid nearly destroyed the multiverse by just falling. This is false equivalency at best.

that's why i used the multiversal level of marvel's death as a possible example. my point was that at the highest levels of each, both should be seen as equals. i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being.

and at times higher dimensions can be equated with higher power levels. i said it doesn't auto-translate. mxy is pretty unequivocally considered the most powerful being in dc (minus an extreme few) and yet there are several dimensions beyond the fifth which mxy has been able to affect effortlessly. though iirc mxy's uncle (?) has been shown to be more powerful than mxy as well. whatever. my point stands. hell, a 'lowly' 3d being--superman--punched out a 6th dimensional wf last month.... like i said, it doesn't automatically follow as regards higher dimensions and personal power.

Death is a function of Multi-Eternity- who is multiversal space time continuum.

Death of the Endless on the other hand has a claim on Destiny of the Endless, who contains all of multiversal space time continuum in his book. including platonic realms. that's something Marvel doesn't have.

So like I said, competely different leagues

that....doesn't mean much. using terms like "platonic realms" sounds cool and all, but all batman was saying was that the new gods were conceptual beings (something not consistently shown to be the case, btw.) but conceptual entities exist in marvel, obviously, so they have their own platonic/achetypal beings and they have their own realm--overspace. also, in an old what if we see one version of death claim eternity after korvac destroys it. apparently death in marvel can also lay claim to platonic entities.... death has worked against 'life' in the past in an effort to claim the universe. that's hardly anything new nor does it set dc's death apart. though dc's death is way cooler.

death was also just an example. like i said earlier--i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being. at the very highest levels, there really is no reason not to view them as relative equals. /shrug

the dc infinite universes exist as infinitesimal bubbles in new genesis.

dream realm is the same dimensional plane as genesis

the infinite universes are dust in relation to the endless

above the sphere of god is limbo, a realm where time doesn't exist, a non material higher dimension

furthermore, destiny of the endless is above the monitor realm on the map

monitor realm view the prime dc multiverse as germ

and destiny is above that

the endless are not killable, you kill morpheus you, dream doesn't die, he's replaced by daniel, endless avatars to choose from, different incarnations

red king was able to destroy endless universes with just a fraction of dream's power

Originally posted by leonidas
that's why i used the multiversal level of marvel's death as a possible example. my point was that at the highest levels of each, both should be seen as equals. i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being.

There's no multiversal Death in marvel. I'm not either but not every character needs to be equaled in DC and Marvel.

Both are exception to the rule instead of being the rule.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also being bigger than an entire dimension or multiverse DO relate to power, that's how Beyonder was so powerful and Darkseid nearly destroyed the multiverse by just falling. This is false equivalency at best. Nah, bro.

When Marvel is bigger, it matters. See: Beyonder, any event saying "Universe" refers to "Multiverse/Omniverse" , any discussion when DC was supposedly only one Universe/52 Universes, etc.

When DC's cosmology makes the entirety of Marvel seem like a 'drop in the ocean' in size, it's back to "it's all the same, no matter what!".

Meanwhile, The One Above All is not Omnipotent, the Living Tribunal's power is dependent on the state of the prime Multiverse, to the point where he can get trashed by lower abstracts in those circumstances, the IG is specifically only working in its own Universe, etc.

Funny how things change.

LT has got to be the most overrated character ever, he only has statements going on for decades and jobbed against pretty much everything.

Posters here made fun of Spectre who actually has feats for him.

...then he disappears when people call him on his bs.

but if you don't agree with him you're automatically a troll lol. So sad

Originally posted by abhilegend
There's no multiversal Death in marvel. I'm not either but not every character needs to be equaled in DC and Marvel.

Both are exception to the rule instead of being the rule.

as i said, i was just using death as an example--marvel doesn't really have a known equivalent to vertigo death (though that marvel parody seems to indicate that marvel would be happy to say vertigo death also rules death in marvel--i'd be very cool with that....) if we assume a multi-eternity though, then the other pillars likely exist as well. my point was though that at the highest levels the entities (like ultimate supreme beings) are relatively equivalent imo.

and maybe they are exceptions, but they prove my point. in marvel it's the same--higher dimensional beings lose to lower ones who aren't as powerful as beings below them. how many times in marvel or dc has a 'god' or 'new god' been whipped down by a random earth hero? each time that happens, a lower level being defeats a higher one whether they originate from the fourth world or the sphere of the gods. it's no where near as rare as you think it is, imo, or maybe you just don't think the 4th world is a higher dimensional plane than the earth universe is? what difference does it really make if the 4th world is bigger than dc's earth universe if earth heroes can beat down 4th worlders?

@mrmind--you do like your list of scales, eh? lol. scale is irrelevant when you have lower dimensional beings beating higher dimensional ones. again, scale doesn't necessarily translate to power. in marvel, pym grew large enough to reach the 16th dimensional overspace, the realm that exists beyond the multiverse, but i don't think anyone is calling pym a supreme being--aside from scientist supreme.

@phil--not really a fair shot. in the latest jl arc the terms universe, world and multiverse were used with complete and almost random abandon. the witch mark arc also made a mess of terminology talking about magic on EARTH, then skipping around to dimension, universe and multiverse--all seemingly used interchangeably. terminology has ALWAYS been grossly mishandled by both companies. masters and abhi have been wrangling over terminology in several threads. sides choose and highlight the terminology that best suits their needs.....

regardless, i find comparing 'infinities' is a useless exercise. how big is overspace? underspace? the realm of the one below all? the realm of the one above all? bigger than the beyond realm? no idea. just because a caption doesn't say 'this realm is this many times bigger than this realm!' doesn't mean everything in marvel is small. i mean, really?

i don't believe i have ever been of any opinion other than the one that says dc/marvel are relatively the same 'size' throughout their existences--though i don't ever really recall having this level of discussion about it. i mean if we're comparing, do we factor into the marvel side the countless MULTIVERSES that make it up and that interact directly from time to time with marvel's mainstream multiverse? i mean you're factoring in the dark multiverse so i guess we should include the countless multiverses for marvel, and the megaverses beyond those? and how big is a megaverse? are the other multiverses in marvel bigger than the mainstream one? i sure as hell don't know. and the realm of overspace--does it surround all those megaverses? or the beyond realm? the realm where the infinites exist which appears to be beyond the multiverse as well (if we view eternity as a multiverse)?

the exercise becomes absurd imo. you want to say dc is bigger?
i....really don't care. my only issue is with being TOLD it's bigger, like if you don't believe it you're an idiot as though it were some simple, abc comparison. it's not. at all, and never has been.

not sure why the issue of which is bigger really means anything anyway when lower dimensional beings beat higher dimensional ones all the time in BOTH companies.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i said, i was just using death as an example--marvel doesn't really have a known equivalent to vertigo death (though that marvel parody seems to indicate that marvel would be happy to say vertigo death also rules death in marvel--i'd be very cool with that....) if we assume a multi-eternity though, then the other pillars likely exist as well. my point was though that at the highest levels the entities (like ultimate supreme beings) are relatively equivalent imo.

and maybe they are exceptions, but they prove my point. in marvel it's the same--higher dimensional beings lose to lower ones who aren't as powerful as beings below them. how many times in marvel or dc has a 'god' or 'new god' been whipped down by a random earth hero? each time that happens, a lower level being defeats a higher one whether they originate from the fourth world or the sphere of the gods. it's no where near as rare as you think it is, imo, or maybe you just don't think the 4th world is a higher dimensional plane than the earth universe is? what difference does it really make if the 4th world is bigger than dc's earth universe if earth heroes can beat down 4th worlders?

@mrmind--you do like your list of scales, eh? lol. scale is irrelevant when you have lower dimensional beings beating higher dimensional ones. again, scale doesn't necessarily translate to power. in marvel, pym grew large enough to reach the 16th dimensional overspace, the realm that exists beyond the multiverse, but i don't think anyone is calling pym a supreme being--aside from scientist supreme.

@phil--not really a fair shot. in the latest jl arc the terms universe, world and multiverse were used with complete and almost random abandon. the witch mark arc also made a mess of terminology talking about magic on EARTH, then skipping around to dimension, universe and multiverse--all seemingly used interchangeably. terminology has ALWAYS been grossly mishandled by both companies. masters and abhi have been wrangling over terminology in several threads. sides choose and highlight the terminology that best suits their needs.....

regardless, i find comparing 'infinities' is a useless exercise. how big is overspace? underspace? the realm of the one below all? the realm of the one above all? bigger than the beyond realm? no idea. just because a caption doesn't say 'this realm is this many times bigger than this realm!' doesn't mean everything in marvel is small. i mean, really?

i don't believe i have ever been of any opinion other than the one that says dc/marvel are relatively the same 'size' throughout their existences--though i don't ever really recall having this level of discussion about it. i mean if we're comparing, do we factor into the marvel side the countless MULTIVERSES that make it up and that interact directly from time to time with marvel's mainstream multiverse? i mean you're factoring in the dark multiverse so i guess we should include the countless multiverses for marvel, and the megaverses beyond those? and how big is a megaverse? are the other multiverses in marvel bigger than the mainstream one? i sure as hell don't know. and the realm of overspace--does it surround all those megaverses? or the beyond realm? the realm where the infinites exist which appears to be beyond the multiverse as well (if we view eternity as a multiverse)?

the exercise becomes absurd imo. you want to say dc is bigger?
i....really don't care. my only issue is with being TOLD it's bigger, like if you don't believe it you're an idiot as though it were some simple, abc comparison. it's not. at all, and never has been.

not sure why the issue of which is bigger really means anything anyway when lower dimensional beings beat higher dimensional ones all the time in BOTH companies.

DC is bigger

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DC is bigger

tl;dr.

I'll preface by saying I'm not talking specifically about you.

Nobody is saying Marvel is small. They're saying it's smaller

They're showing evidence of how big DC is, and, as a a consequence of presented arguments, bigger than Marvel. A lot bigger.

---

x = marvel cosmology posters
y = dc cosmology posters

It's like a guy Y coming and telling guy X he can bench-press more than him, then proceeding to do so with 1000 lbs.

X has never benched more than 200 lbs in actual real life canon, but frustrated X just says to him "How much I can press? you mean how BIG MY pectorals are? WHY....ARE YOU SAYING YOUR PECTORALS ARE BIGGER THAN MINE?! We are all the same, equivalent bench pressing #OneHumanity"

It's a lazy way to mask the actual problem - lack of arguments/muscle - behind a "I don't need arguments, so I'll just say it's the same because it's convenient right now". Asking "how big is Realm X in Marvel? WE MAY NEVER KNOW! So we don't know ANYTHING" is not an actual argument. It's the opposite of an argument.

The burden of proof/lifting is on X. Always. Because that's how argumentation works.

@phil--oh, i get WHY you're saying it, and....there really is NOT a SPECIFIC argument against it for the marvel side, but that's because the set ups are so different. dc's set up is ordered--now--and it seems to be an order followed by most of the writers. we have direct statements comparing relative sizes of dimensions.

marvel does NOT organize things like that, so since they don't directly state--x dimension is y times larger than x, do we simply assume x and y are....small? or large? marvel--like dc--has seemingly endless dimensions or 'infinite' size. i'm just not sure when dealing with infinite infinities we can say with any sort of certainty that one is bigger or smaller than the other. shrug

i made a thread about the brothers and even (at the time) marvel and dc seemed to believe the companies were relatively the same in regards to size and scope, as was made apparent by the equality of the brothers. if they feel that way (and i'd be surprised if they still didn't) i don't think it's unreasonable to see the companies STILL as relative equals in that regard.

Well, that's the thing - if we don't have explicit arguments on the Marvel side, then they simply can't match the size of current DC. I completely understand your 'fairness' position in a vacuum - but if people really want to argue one way or another, they have to bring arguments. Or they could simply...not argue.

We agree that the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse was bigger than the pre-ZH post-Crisis Universe. We agree that current DC is bigger than the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse. We agree that the Beyonder realm was millions of times bigger than the pre-Retcon Marvel infinite Multiverse. We agree on comparing a lot of infinities with clear delimitations on which one is bigger than the other.

But when it comes to comparing inter-company, well...

I mean, of course, I get it. But still.

DC fans have been slammed over the head for the last....15 years? On how big Beyonder is? How big Marvel is? How many levels of infinity there are? . Suddenly, there's things in DC that makes the Beyonder/Marvel like a speck themselves comparatively.

Surely, you've seen all of this and you understand why they do this when the tables turn.

@phil--i can honestly say i don't recall any discussions revolving around the size of the companies, or the beyonder as he relates to size. but i may just not be remembering.



hmm, i'm not even 100% sure i'd agree with all those things. each version of what made up dc, STILL had essentially infinite different dimensions in them. some new dimensions have been added or removed or whatever. is one all-encompassing 'universe' with access to a literal infinity of other universes, really...."smaller" than an infinity of smaller 'alternate' universes? dude, i really have no idea. are the 52 smaller than the pre-crisis collection of alternates? again, i don't know. you can still access infinite dimensions from either, you have access to hypertime, or the bleed (like marvel has (had??) the superflow) so man, i'll be honest--i'm not sure all of those comparisons follow as neatly as you think they do. again, at least not imo.

Every Beyonder discussion has been about how he's millions of times bigger and more powerful than the entirety of Marvel, and in order to argue against that, you'd have to argue that DC is that much bigger, too, in terms of size/power -- even though Beyonder, himself, is also Marvel. But that's having your cake and eating it, too. Which is what's been going on since 2007.



This is not a whatever, though. Hypertime came into being a decade after COIE -- if I sent you back in time right now, would you say the....let's say, 1990 DC Universe is equivalent with Marvel? Would you say that one infinite Universe is equivalent with Marvel's infinite Multiverse? You're applying the knowledge you have right now about how DC has always been retroactively , to argue that it's always been that size -- but knowing what you knew then, you wouldn't say the same.

This is...obvious. Nobody argues that the size of DC as it was presented in the early 90s, is the same as it is presented now .

In DC, right now, you can go to the Monitor world, and observe the infinity of infinities inside an Orrery. Or you can go to the 4th world. Or you can go to the 5th dimension. You have infinity -- then infinity of infinities -- then infinities that makes the clusters of infinities look small etc.

How big is current DC?

Nothing in DC makes Marvel look like a speck. It only "seems" that at the current state of affairs DC is exploring its cosmology more than Marvel. But we're talking about the entire history of each company here, do you really think anything Mr Mind posted does not apply to Marvel?

Infinite spatial and fractional dimensions? explored in detail in Dr Strange 21.

countless universes inside bubbles? Dr strange has gone to random realms like this since the 60s.

Metaverses? Howard the duck series.

infinite multiverses? Quasar and captain marvel series.

the morrison map which shows infinitely bigger realms nested inside each other? Silver Surfer 1401-45 showed such universes which are infinitely nested in each other( and make the universes inside them look insignificant) ad infinitum.

Im not sure if you were talking about me or not but i think ive been consistent in the past to point out that the two companies are equal in terms of cosmology.

Originally posted by operator616
Nothing in DC makes Marvel look like a speck. It only "seems" that at the current state of affairs DC is exploring its cosmology more than Marvel. But we're talking about the entire history of each company here, do you really think anything Mr Mind posted does not apply to Marvel? Putting things in "" doesn't suddenly make it an illusion, though. Yes, taking into account the entire history of companies and the arguments presented, Marvel is smaller, compare to what DC is shown as.

Yes, infinite dimensions also exist in Marvel

The mainstream Universe(s) are the bubbles. The DCU itself exists inside bubbles in the 4th world:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80518/6897121-0007872617-HLPSv.jpg

Darkseid's shadow was cast across the entire DC Multiverse when he fell:
https://imgur.com/X7nlqjQ

So please, let's start with something simple like this.

Show me something as big comparatively with the Marvel Multiverse as the 4th World, and we can work our way up from there.

Metaverse is not about size, it's about purpose. The source of all stories/cosmology - which is what the prime Universe in DC is, for all of what's built around it, as Manhattan observed. I'm mainly talking about size. I think Mr. Mind was trying to show the diversity of the DC - if not the size, with that one.

I don't think we've ever talked about this so, suffice to say, it's not about you - or even necessarily one person.

Also -- I'd appreciate some scans, kind of like Mr. Mind did I'd post them in your stead, but it's double-work and I'd be talking to myself.

lol what?


The highest numbered Marvel Universe known is this: Earth-28,744,923,048,932, on top of being a true 'Quantum Universe' - every single possibility exists, with beings that are able to exist outside this "Quantum Universe" and act upon it without causing new Universes to split off.

There are two videos by the Imaginary Axis that discusses the Multiverses of both:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDoIFvVAwM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAt0xpQe934

Alongside the First Firmament, these are five other Eternities, each one the living embodiment of 'infinite multiverses', with Infinity becoming the embodiment of the Seventh Multiverse (the one pre-Secret Wars). They themselves were also shown to have existed and have returned from a place called the Far Shore, and took the First Firmanent to a place beyond the Far Shore, where everything begins.

Last time I checked, DC comics doesn't have anything on this kind of scale.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pv1rFGPW/lkm.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
as i said, i was just using death as an example--marvel doesn't really have a known equivalent to vertigo death (though that marvel parody seems to indicate that marvel would be happy to say vertigo death also rules death in marvel--i'd be very cool with that....) if we assume a multi-eternity though, then the other pillars likely exist as well. my point was though that at the highest levels the entities (like ultimate supreme beings) are relatively equivalent imo.

Now you're saying it but for years TOAA and LT were treated as untouchables at abstract level, Galactus and Odin untouchables at skyfather level (God forbid anyone suggest any skyfather coughMordrucough could beat Odin, the poor fella gets banned by your reports).

Why would anyone be exempt from the same logic? Because they are forum's sacred cows?

Because most of the times those are retconned by writers as avatars. Thanos losses are accepted as retconned by Starlin but same can't be accepted for new gods? Hypocrisy much?



That was retconned as Loki messing with Pym. And he wasn't in 16th dimension and marvel dimensional space isn't structured as DC is.

This honestly feels like a bitter rant at this point.

Soon, we'll see it argued that the DeMatteis' Macroverse in Silver Surfer is the same as the 4th World. Be prepared for a new era.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Alongside the First Firmament, these are five other Eternities, each one the living embodiment of 'infinite multiverses', with Infinity becoming the embodiment of the Seventh Multiverse (the one pre-Secret Wars). They themselves were also shown to have existed and have returned from a place called the Far Shore, and took the First Firmanent to a place beyond the Far Shore, where everything begins.

Last time I checked, DC comics doesn't have anything on this kind of scale.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pv1rFGPW/lkm.jpg
Marvel has seven multiverses then? Because DC has infinite multiverses.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80518/6897137-0147744403-Hv5aV.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Marvel has seven multiverses then? Because DC has infinite multiverses.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80518/6897137-0147744403-Hv5aV.jpg


Aside from the fact that those six Multiverses (the First Firmament is a Universe) all existed before the present Eternity chronologically. As in, those Eternities existed long before the present Marvel Universe, continued to exist afterwards the next Multiverse succeeded them.

Here is what exists within the Eternity/Multiverse we are familiar with for Marvel:

https://i.postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y/pvll.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn/oal.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DmjYZCyg/unvl.jpg

Universes where the natural laws of nature differ; pocket universes where Gods and demons live; Universes where natural laws range from science to magic, but share concepts; Universes with spatial dimensions measured in "irrational numbers", with Universes with spatial dimensions lower than 2.726(etc) or higher than 6.298(etc) each having their own clusters, each administered to by the Living Tribunal.

So, unless you try to claim that the DC Multiverse somehow encompasses all of the above and more, the scale starts to weigh in favor of the Marvel Multiverse. And with the existence of the other Eternities, there is the possibility that all of them bore similar structures as their youngest brother.

past multiverses in DC Comics are just the same Multiverse that underwent cosmological changes due to drastic cosmic events, which is why you have entities able to remember the events and worlds of DC all the way back to Pre-Crisis. I.e. all the big "Crisis events" took place within the confines of the Bleed, meaning all the changes to the structure of the Universe/Multiverse were confined to the Bleed during the cross-over events where that happened.

There are only "multiple multiverses" in the Bleed now because Convergence's ending resulted in the Anti-Monitor being stopped before he could destroy the original, Pre-Crisis Multiverse, effectively turning every iteration of the DC Universe (those within the Bleed) into one cohesive whole, with each "multiverse" existing in its own grouping within the Bleed.

With the multiple Eternities, on the other hand, it would be as if Relic's Universe still existed, rather than collapsing and dying out completely to make way for the DC Universe as we know it. The Eternities are ancient Multiverse embodiments, each of them predating the modern Marvel Multiverse, each of them still alive.

And just so we're clear you completely agree with Mr Mind's argument correct? So limbo, gods sphere, 4th and 5th dimension completely dwarf the entirety of marvel including the beyond realm, right?



It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:

https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475

Also im assuming you're aware of the size of the beyond realm?




Great feat for Darkseid. Personally i was always under the impression that it referred to his essence as dying and dragging the multiverse with him, not actually literally falling on the multiverse. But it's open to interpretation i guess. Morrison did seem to turn the New Gods to living concepts.

Anyway, here's the scan from surfer's run: Basicaly the idea is that Surfer's universe (616) and other all mainstream universes (referred to as the "macroverse" in this story arc) exist inside a bigger universe which in turn exists within a bigger one, ad infinitum (so infinite layers above)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NF2ZQHVZLDc/VoTbjsoLz0I/AAAAAAAAUSQ/N2OSXdR8-Eo/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nx8f_HDNWpo/VoTbj9sKfpI/AAAAAAAAUSQ/NvcczoF8IRY/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpg

Also Dematteis followed up on that idea in Defenders i believe.



The metaverse in DC was previously featured in a superman story where it contained every possibility, that's what i was referring to not the new one which you're referring to. But Marvel has all kinds of diversity, it had something called the "ideaverse" in deadpool comics a few years back.



Fair enough.

^^ Check the latest Doomsday Clock issues, Op.

Originally posted by operator616
And just so we're clear you completely agree with Mr Mind's argument correct? So limbo, gods sphere, 4th and 5th dimension completely dwarf the entirety of marvel including the beyond realm, right?



It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:

https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475

Also im assuming you're aware of the size of the beyond realm?




Great feat for Darkseid. Personally i was always under the impression that it referred to his essence as dying and dragging the multiverse with him, not actually literally falling on the multiverse. But it's open to interpretation i guess. Morrison did seem to turn the New Gods to living concepts.

Anyway, here's the scan from surfer's run: Basicaly the idea is that Surfer's universe (616) and other all mainstream universes (referred to as the "macroverse" in this story arc) exist inside a bigger universe which in turn exists within a bigger one, ad infinitum (so infinite layers above)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NF2ZQHVZLDc/VoTbjsoLz0I/AAAAAAAAUSQ/N2OSXdR8-Eo/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nx8f_HDNWpo/VoTbj9sKfpI/AAAAAAAAUSQ/NvcczoF8IRY/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpg

Also Dematteis followed up on that idea in Defenders i believe.



The metaverse in DC was previously featured in a superman story where it contained every possibility, that's what i was referring to not the new one which you're referring to. But Marvel has all kinds of diversity, it had something called the "ideaverse" in deadpool comics a few years back.



Fair enough.

the imgur links for that similar new god arc is broken my guy, would love to see it. seems interesting

Re-read the arc. The Macroverse was playing the role of the multiverse in that arc. It's because the microverse was featured as well, so Dematteis wanted to differentiate between levels of reality. Where the macroverse meant the collection of regular sized universes. While the microverse was the small scale universe. And yet there were infinitely higher universes than the macroverse

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the imgur links for that similar new god arc is broken my guy, would love to see it. seems interesting

https://imgur.com/a/RXC7HqJ

@philosophia please refer to these scans.

that is a pretty stupid stance to take. /shrug

the beyonder was a bit different though i guess in that he was the literal manifestation of his realm. the monitors for example, are not actual embodiments (ie conceptual entities representing the whole of their sphere). i GUESS beyonder (pre retcon) could be seen as being a form of abstract entity. maybe. anyway, this isn't an argument i've made, so.....



yes....depicted differently though but still filled with infinite worlds...



but dc has never been just one universe....there have always been different worlds/dimensions/times whatever.



but that's what the new map is--retroactively applied. we assume the outer spheres have always been in place. if the prime universe/es are small infinitesimal in comparison anyway, it really doesn't matter much how they have fluctuated--i mean from a comparison stand point. if the 3d worlds are almost imperceptible at the higher scales, what does it matter if they've grown some or shrank some--meaningless to the overall size of the multiverse, no?

and hypertime may have only been introduced, but again we need to look at it retroactively imo. but even if not, there were still infinite different worlds in dc. there always has been.



i'd argue it's always been that way, just the infinities now are better defined and ordered and followed by writers.

before the prime universe was shattered by krona into the multiverse that first universe was as infinite as the later multiverse was imo. or at least i've always viewed it that way. the universe was the window, the fractured universes were shards. it's even been drawn that way.

marvel has a similar theory regarding the celestials creating the multiverse. marvel has simply never been as ordered as dc's set up right now. strange made mention of infinities within infinities when talking about the number of universes in the multiverse and even tried to talk about the number being TRANSFINITE. a silly number that i think the writer wanted to imply was GREATER than infinity.

again, my underlying assumption has been, and remains that the 2 companies are essentially the same size. just too many infinities to suggest otherwise imo.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Now you're saying it but for years TOAA and LT were treated as untouchables at abstract level, Galactus and Odin untouchables at skyfather level (God forbid anyone suggest any skyfather coughMordrucough could beat Odin, the poor fella gets banned by your reports).

Why would anyone be exempt from the same logic? Because they are forum's sacred cows?



wtf are you even talking about....? sacred cows?? and where have i ever said marvel's supreme being>dc's? and you didn't get banned for saying mordru could beat odin but it's hilarious that's how you're trying to paint it. lol i don't even think i reported you in that thread, though i said i would. i didn't have to, you made yourself difficult for mods NOT to notice. but glad you're over it though lying about why you were banned isn't the best idea.



lol what? every time any new god has been beaten by any earth hero or villain has been retconned now? and any time a hero or villain has beaten a god has also been retconned? dude.....




if that was retconned i never saw it. that would be for the best, but scan? and no sh!t they aren't structured the same. i've said that i hundred times. doesn't mean an outer realm doesn't scale though. universes within universes has been a thing in marvel for a long time.

and bitter rant?? lolol i've been nothing but cordial during this entire discussion. your opinions of everything dc related vs everything marvel related are known by....everyone. which is why your opinion is so meaningless to everyone. you are the consummate dc fanboy, incapable of looking at things in an unbiased way. everyone knows just who and what you are. since i don't want any repeats of our last go-round, carry on talking to whoever will entertain you.

the macroverse is stated to be "a level above" 616 universe. sure its larger in scale then 616 but that definitely doesnt mean it scales infinitely beyond marvels entire 3d infinity

the difference is

Marvel Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses
DC Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses + different levels of existence to reach archetypal infinity

the higher dimension planes of beings in DC look at the main multiverse, like us real life human beings looking at comic book characters, if that makes sense

that's why monitor's realm has manisfestation of narration and meta thought forms.




Correction, IN MY OPINION I said the god sphere or dark multiverse are comparable to the beyond ream. if you compare these statements

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg

https://imgur.com/xOTsy6u

https://imgur.com/WCUCWAi

any higher dimensions in DC should be larger. and we both know, the outer side of the dc multiverse map, the bigger the realm.

https://i.imgur.com/XqIEm3h.jpg

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the macroverse is stated to be "a level above" 616 universe. sure its larger in scale then 616 but that definitely doesnt mean it scales infinitely beyond marvels entire 3d infinity

Basically like wonderworld in dc

the scale and perception starts to alter from wonderworld, and goes from there

https://imgur.com/a/R7be6FI

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the macroverse is stated to be "a level above" 616 universe. sure its larger in scale then 616 but that definitely doesnt mean it scales infinitely beyond marvels entire 3d infinity

And no one said it does. The key term you're missing is ad infinitum. There are realms within realms within ... you get the idea. All the way till infinity. Macroverse (mainstream universes) are just one level of this infinite hierarchy.


Originally posted by MrMind
the difference is

Marvel Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses
DC Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses + different levels of existence to reach archetypal infinity

the higher dimension planes of beings in DC look at the main multiverse, like us real life human beings looking at comic book characters, if that makes sense

that's why monitor's realm has manisfestation of narration and meta thought forms.


Well.. you're wrong. I already said (and scans were posted) that Marvel has infinite dimensional structure.

https://postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y
https://postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn
https://postimg.cc/DmjYZCyg

These scans which i referenced (Dr Strange 21) and alberto posted exactly satisfy your criterion of infinite levels of existence. You need to take a step back and read the scans carefully.

1) imagine a 2D plane. X-Y plane.
2) in the center of this (actually center-less) plane (since it extends to infinity in all directions) put the infinite 3-D universes of the multiverse. So you can visualize it as infinite points on y = 0 line (so an infinite line).
3) as you go outward (so above or below y=0, say y=1) you encounter universes with spatial dimensions higher than 3rd. Now those between roughly 0. something and 6. something are clustered together in a group, but there are infinite other groups (the plane extends infinitely outward). As you go outward these dimensions are higher spatial dimensions which humans can't conceive of.

Originally posted by MrMind


Correction, IN MY OPINION I said the god sphere or dark multiverse are comparable to the beyond ream. if you compare these statements

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg

https://imgur.com/xOTsy6u

https://imgur.com/WCUCWAi

any higher dimensions in DC should be larger. and we both know, the outer side of the dc multiverse map, the bigger the realm.



Except... these are not the only scans we're all referring to. There's an FF annual which shows that the LT safeguards all multiverses. And yet all that is literally dwarfed by the beyond realm. But as ive pointed out, marvel has other structures similar to it.

Originally posted by operator616
And no one said it does. thats where the argument would have definitely gone. nipped it in the buds before that happened




Originally posted by operator616
https://postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y
https://postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn
https://postimg.cc/DmjYZCyg

These scans which i referenced (Dr Strange 21) and alberto posted exactly satisfy your criterion of infinite levels of existence. You need to take a step back and read the scans carefully.

1) imagine a 2D plane. X-Y plane.
2) in the center of this (actually center-less) plane (since it extends to infinity in all directions) put the infinite 3-D universes of the multiverse. So you can visualize it as infinite points on y = 0 line (so an infinite line).
3) as you go outward (so above or below y=0, say y=1) you encounter universes with spatial dimensions higher than 3rd. Now those between roughly 0. something and 6. something are clustered together in a group, but there are infinite other groups (the plane extends infinitely outward). As you go outward these dimensions are higher spatial dimensions which humans can't conceive of. mrmind was talking about scale as you move upwards in dc's dimensions i think. these scans do not adress scale at all. they just mention that marvel has infinite universes and realms (like dc does) which no one was questioning

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
thats where the argument would have definitely gone. nipped it in the buds before that happened


You simply misinterpreted the scene. That's what happened.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

mrmind was talking about scale as you move upwards in dc's dimensions i think. these scans do not adress scale at all. they just mention that marvel has infinite universes and realms which no one was questioning

Could you please read my post before you reply? This was exactly what i was talking about. I wasn't talking about infinite universes obviously, i was talking about how you have infinite levels/dimensions above the regular 3d ones.

dont be a cocky dickhead. i didn't misinterpret anything. i just added more info about the macroverse because now we know it is only "A level above" the 616 universe.....which wasnt mentioned in the scans you posted.

right but mrmind was talking about scale. your scans dont address scale so theyre irrevelent and dont disprove the point he was making.

...what?

operator, deadpool's a troll. if you dont know

say the dumbass who posted this when he was WRONG lol-
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I'm gonna be straight forward with you. I don't really care what you think he did, or anything YOU say really. You ride other people wave and consistently lowball marvel to get an argument on purpose. do that with carver, not me

now get back in your cage you punk

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
dont be a cocky dickhead. i didn't misinterpret anything. i just added more info about the macroverse because now we know it is only "A level above" the 616 universe.....which wasnt mentioned in the scans you posted.

right but mrmind was talking about scale. your scans dont address scale so theyre irrevelent and dont disprove the point he was making.

Really? then go ahead and quote where i said that. All i said about the macroverse is that it played the role of the multiverse in that story and there were infinite realms above it. Stop blatantly misquoting me.

lol i wasn't quoting you or even directing my first post at you mah dude. like i said- i was just adding context to where the macroverse sits in marvels structure so that others (no you) didnt try to say that marvel scales equal to dc "cuz macroverse"

I only have one request here - for us to not split this into more quotes. It's a pain in the ass and it makes it really hard to get perspective on anything.
Originally posted by operator616
And just so we're clear you completely agree with Mr Mind's argument correct? So limbo, gods sphere, 4th and 5th dimension completely dwarf the entirety of marvel including the beyond realm, right? We are talking about the initial pre-retcon Beyonder realm? If so, I'm undecided where to liken it in size to the Fourth World or the Dark Multiverse.

Originally posted by operator616
It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:

https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475

Also im assuming you're aware of the size of the beyond realm?I edited my post so as to not seem as rude - but you're kind of missing the point of discussion. I'm asking you to show me, in Marvel, something akin to the Fourth World, from where Darkseid falling casts a show on the mainstream Multiverse and all mortal Universes exists in bubbles. I'm not asking you to show me pocket dimensions, sub-atomic dimensions, microverses, or anything of the kind. Our starting point, for scale, is, for the lack of a better word - a normal Universe.

I'm not about to bring Doctor Fate's Universe in a helmet helmet or any of that stuff. I mean...congrats about the atomic Universes Dr. Strange visited....? What can I say. Here's Ray Palmer going to a sub-atomic Universe, too:
https://imgur.com/a/315LpeM

I.... don't know what you think I'm arguing. The number of 'niche' Universes each one has? No, I'm talking about scale, size.

Originally posted by operator616
Great feat for Darkseid. Personally i was always under the impression that it referred to his essence as dying and dragging the multiverse with him, not actually literally falling on the multiverse. But it's open to interpretation i guess. Morrison did seem to turn the New Gods to living concepts.

Anyway, here's the scan from surfer's run: Basicaly the idea is that Surfer's universe (616) and other all mainstream universes (referred to as the "macroverse" in this story arc) exist inside a bigger universe which in turn exists within a bigger one, ad infinitum (so infinite layers above)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NF2ZQHVZLDc/VoTbjsoLz0I/AAAAAAAAUSQ/N2OSXdR8-Eo/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nx8f_HDNWpo/VoTbj9sKfpI/AAAAAAAAUSQ/NvcczoF8IRY/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpg

Also Dematteis followed up on that idea in Defenders i believe.

Re-read the arc. The Macroverse was playing the role of the multiverse in that arc. It's because the microverse was featured as well, so Dematteis wanted to differentiate between levels of reality. Where the macroverse meant the collection of regular sized universes. While the microverse was the small scale universe. And yet there were infinitely higher universes than the macroverse I'm sorry in advance to do this to you, operator, since you seem like a nice guy.

But...you're wrong. *shrug*

This was revamped and expanded further on by Reed Richards. The Macroverse does not contain the mainstream Universe, it's simply a Universe that is accessed by growing to the point where planet/suns there are miniature:
https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41389255_WgDyjsA.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41389256_EE1DXLs.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t/41389257_6JSaKYX.jpg

For emphasis:
https://i.imgur.com/VVhkwm3.png
https://i.imgur.com/S3t5Id4.png

Furthermore, DeMatteis entire work is about consciousness, dreams and thoughts forming Universes, who in turn form other Universes from the people's thoughts and forms -- it's a poetical way of saying that every dream creates another Universe, and those dream of another one and so on, as he's literally stated in Spectre, too:
http://i.imgur.com/2mfCSKl.jpg
And again:
https://i.imgur.com/nlHeckj.jpg

So....yeah. Sorry.

If you want, I can send you the issues and we'll talk afterwards.

Originally posted by operator616
The metaverse in DC was previously featured in a superman story where it contained every possibility, that's what i was referring to not the new one which you're referring to. But Marvel has all kinds of diversity, it had something called the "ideaverse" in deadpool comics a few years back.
Oh, I was referring to the latest Metaverse in Doomsday Clock - which is Meta, but not quite "Mxy punches photos of writers and has the power of actual retcons" metas, since that gets us nowhere.

Originally posted by operator616
Fair enough.

But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.

Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.



Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pb
u4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600

The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.

So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg

"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"

Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.

And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around.

"several" universes doesnt equate to "infinite" universes. it actually just goes along with reed and spidey saying that the macroverse is "a level above" 616

It doesn't matter because phil was arguing that it doesn't contain any universes but simply makes suns/planets look tiny. This is true in the story he posted from. But as i said: Writers use same terminology to mean different things. And in the surfer arc it most certainly contained universes. That's the point. Seriously deadpool are you reading the posts?

I would actually say that it actually meant infinite because that's heavily implied in the story (tenebrae's statements) but that's not even the point im arguing.

biggest dimension marvel has is beyond realm. dc have realms that not only match the beyond realms size but are much much larger.

all the stuff in between is just editorializing on the point. dc IS bigger then marvel where dimension size is concerned.

Originally posted by operator616
But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.

Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well. You threw a lot of stuff at me - from fractal dimensions, universe inside bubbles etc. - which, funnily enough, is exactly what your scan shows of Doctor Strange, him entering a psychedelic 'pocket' dimension the size of a beach ball. Creating/visiting pocket/small Universes is something neither company is strange to . The problem is that you're getting this backwards - it's not a matter of the 'normal' Universe/characters interacting with smaller Universes/Dimensions. It's a matter of higher dimensions making his Multiverse a speck - as the Fourth World does in DC.

To put it succinctly - I keep asking you to show me a hand that's as big as a building compared to yours, but you keep showing me yours compared to a miniature building that you built as a hobby.


Originally posted by operator616
Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pb
u4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600

The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.

So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg

"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"

Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.

And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around. I understand the frustration but the macroverse - as it is being defined currently, is not what you say it is. Call the Fantastic Four/Spiderman issue a retcon, or a clarification, if you'd like, but it is simply the case that it takes absolute precedence that the Macroverse is simply a 'bigger' Universe than the mainstream one, and it does not contain it - and we see that's the case, as Reed says it and shows it as the reverse of the coin of the microverse - which is what it was in Surfer's story, too https://imgur.com/a/2VF5ggw]. In the Hank Pym instance he also says that Reed told him how to go through it, also by simply increasing his size https://imgur.com/a/QcJZH6Q] so that's even further proof.

I'd like to entertain going into pre-retcon (x2...lol) territory, because I disagree with your assessment there, too seemed to be accessed by some sort of 'wormhole' , and issue #43's description literally says that the mainstream Universe and the Macroverse are separate: https://imgur.com/a/aS0YaMH - "Breach the zone between the macroverse and our current Universe to get back to Earth", contradicting itself in what it was said in the earlier issue], but we'd be going too much into retcon-fan-fiction, since it's no longer relevant.

As for the later part, it's so blatant when looking at Dematteis' line of work with dreams/Universes what he means, that while I respect your opinion, I'll have to hard disagree with it. I can count on one hand the comic books I've read where he didn't associate dreams/consciousness with creating/shaping worlds.

Unless there's something new here, I'll leave it to agree to disagree on the 4th world/Marvel cosmology.

ya im interested in the scale of things also.

i feel like the only way marvel can even think about scaling equal to dc is if they have a dimension that scales orders of magnitude beyond.....the beyond realm. but if they have nothing larger then the beyond realm then how does marvel even begin to compare to dc in that respect?

Feel like this same discussion about scaling has played out a few different times recently, no?

Both companies have infinite numbered dimensions, no doubt... But aside from Marvel's Beyond Realm(which I do feel is about equal to DC's Monitor Sphere in terms of scale) I still have yet to see any explicit evidence suggesting that Marvel's upper-echelon dimensions scale to the same magnitude as DC's upper-echelon dimensions(ie. those that are above even the Monitor Sphere.) Perhaps Marvel does scale to such a degree and I've just never seen the evidence/scans. If anyone would know it'd be operator, though, so I'm curious what his thoughts are here.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Aside from the fact that those six Multiverses (the First Firmament is a Universe) all existed before the present Eternity chronologically. As in, those Eternities existed long before the present Marvel Universe, continued to exist afterwards the next Multiverse succeeded them.

Here is what exists within the Eternity/Multiverse we are familiar with for Marvel:

https://i.postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y/pvll.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn/oal.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DmjYZCyg/unvl.jpg

Universes where the natural laws of nature differ; pocket universes where Gods and demons live; Universes where natural laws range from science to magic, but share concepts; Universes with spatial dimensions measured in "irrational numbers", with Universes with spatial dimensions lower than 2.726(etc) or higher than 6.298(etc) each having their own clusters, each administered to by the Living Tribunal.

So, unless you try to claim that the DC Multiverse somehow encompasses all of the above and more, the scale starts to weigh in favor of the Marvel Multiverse. And with the existence of the other Eternities, there is the possibility that all of them bore similar structures as their youngest brother. Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
past multiverses in DC Comics are just the same Multiverse that underwent cosmological changes due to drastic cosmic events, which is why you have entities able to remember the events and worlds of DC all the way back to Pre-Crisis. I.e. all the big "Crisis events" took place within the confines of the Bleed, meaning all the changes to the structure of the Universe/Multiverse were confined to the Bleed during the cross-over events where that happened.

There are only "multiple multiverses" in the Bleed now because Convergence's ending resulted in the Anti-Monitor being stopped before he could destroy the original, Pre-Crisis Multiverse, effectively turning every iteration of the DC Universe (those within the Bleed) into one cohesive whole, with each "multiverse" existing in its own grouping within the Bleed.

With the multiple Eternities, on the other hand, it would be as if Relic's Universe still existed, rather than collapsing and dying out completely to make way for the DC Universe as we know it. The Eternities are ancient Multiverse embodiments, each of them predating the modern Marvel Multiverse, each of them still alive.
What are you spasming about now?

Originally posted by leonidas


wtf are you even talking about....? sacred cows?? and where have i ever said marvel's supreme being>dc's? and you didn't get banned for saying mordru could beat odin but it's hilarious that's how you're trying to paint it. lol i don't even think i reported you in that thread, though i said i would. i didn't have to, you made yourself difficult for mods NOT to notice. but glad you're over it though lying about why you were banned isn't the best idea.

We are not talking about supreme beings though. You're so keen to equalize every character when it come to DC/Marvel but not when its reversed.

Tell me which skyfather in DC is equal to Odin then? Which character is equal to Galactus?

Get over your hypocrisy? Far from it.



Yes, it is confirmed in Final Crisis and Multiversity. You're not accepting it?

Yes, it is.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9f1c3a679e77f23e9d29850017c77bd0

So is in DC. We are talking about dimensions bigger than multiverse though which is just not there in marvel. When you go outside multiverse in marvel, there is just a void as seen in Ultimates.



Yes, everyone here is a DC fanboy who thinks DC cosmology is bigger than marvel and you're the only rational person.


We get it dude.

Originally posted by operator616
But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.

Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.



Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pb
u4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600

The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.

So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg

"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"

Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.

And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around.
Ewing has made it clear that marvel omniverse/multiverse is made of individual universes.

https://i.postimg.cc/Xp4mb9pK/Al-Ewing-explains-Eternity-003.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Wh8KbtkB/IMG-20170104-175712-3280.jpg


And what happens when you go outside multiverse? There's just void.

https://i.postimg.cc/TpQdMdYw/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zyBJqsVk/image.jpg

So where is the dimension that is bigger than multiverse in marvel?

Originally posted by operator616

It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:

https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475


Like this then?


http://i.imgur.com/Hr8Otv1.jpg

"Universes explodes within atoms"!!!

edit

wrong thread

Originally posted by operator616


Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg

It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.



I expected this from Master, not you. Kubik and Kosmos went to the edge of the universe there and never beyond it hence they turned into microverse next. That would make Beyond realm even smaller as it is just at the edge of the universe.

https://i.postimg.cc/8PDfjwq1/RCO054.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/bNTDbkh1/RCO055.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VkkSFvfp/RCO056.jpg

@Mr Mind


Oh there are countless beings beyond the omniverse in marvel. in captain america & the mighty avengers series it was revealed that there are debasers, gardeners (different from ex-nihilo's race) and many other races who toy with reality: https://imgur.com/a/K6UcsFL

Indeed they exist beyond the omniverse entirely: https://imgur.com/a/OjWNomX

This was a portal beyond the omniverse created by WESPE (terrorist organization) and through it one of them came (as mentioned above: the smallest part of a some race)

Does DC have countless races beyond the omniverse?



existing outside of time is hardly something to be impressed over. If you look at my dr strange scan even that realm portrayed time as having spatial existence (as in, it exists everywhere at once), there are many dimensions like this.

Also according to your own theory of how DC is structured, where are the 7th, 90th and 792923th (higher) dimensions located? Are they below the sixth dimension? if so do you have proof?

Btw, Marvel's cosmology isn't as well as organized as DC, so it does not have an equivalent of this and that, im putting this together myself and so are you to an extent. Or were you under the impression that any of today's writers take into account a New Gods story from 1996?



They're designated numerically for the most part, but are usually referred to by their ruler's name, like tiboro's or dweller's dimension. In dormammu's case it's dark dimension. They haven't been thoroughly explored or at least not in an impressive way. In that same series Dweller and his cousin were referred to as higher dimensional beings to whom the 3rd are insignificant, but they weren't that overly powerful. There were however other super dimensional beings whose shockwaves shook galaxies. Not that impressive, i know but i never claimed that Marvel's higher dimensional beings were as powerful as DC's. But the cosmological structure is the same. Id post scans of what i said but there really isn't anything too impressive to brag about so unless you request something, id rather not.

@philosophia


I don't get where are you getting the pocket universe thing. See those spheres in the second scan? those literally represent universes, a cosmos containing countless such spheres/universes. It's nothing similar to ones contained in helmets or hats. It may not dwarf mainstream universes, but it doesn't matter, since we have no reason to believe those universes were anything but normal ones. But even if you disagree (which is fine) the (pre and post retcon) beyond realm should satisfy your criterion



You're reaching into other comics -- while ignoring the relevant (surfer) arc at hand -- to try to disprove what happened in the surfer arc even though they were written by different writers with completely different ideas in mind? So now that Ewing sees the marvel omniverse as a single multiverse we're supposed to ignore all of Marvel's previous history and see it as a single multiverse right? Because that's exactly what you're doing here. Anyway here is another instance, under a yet different writer (from Galactus the devourer series) than all those mentioned where Surfer goes into the microverse and mentions he must get back to the macroverse:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/2HRqOlyX1nFojS5DN7Ip9iJy0juVo4VFz2CZL1s1cZWG_JK0W-kIo_B1MyFlALK9qMp_SsbyRJVO=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KuugumSzxb83MV3y2MCzmyeipxI-v_VUqbEhSFRDpQGqbhd-XKmN77mHE-ybORPn0pjtmWTyCdYh=s1600

Next page he does get back and we see the so called "macroverse" he was referring to was the good old mainstream universe: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/N8LxeNjqIqKMb23fghjccR9z_t4dVhhoW7FCJxrgQ6-Lg2KuybQuVAc18dz_CIENBMvvCQ518OZf=s1600

Like i said different writers, different intentions. The Hank Pym instance was also a similar case where pym broke the barriers of reality/macroverse (regular universe) to go to overspace.

You can argue about whether the macroverse was meant to represent the multiverse or whether it's simply a level of existence from which you see tiny universes, either way it was definitely not supposed to represent a universe so not sure what your point there is? And either way there are infinite levels above it... And im not sure what you're arguing with Dematteis either, you're saying that the entire surfer arc was a dream?

Originally posted by Galan007
Feel like this same discussion about scaling has played out a few different times recently, no?

Both companies have infinite numbered dimensions, no doubt... But aside from Marvel's Beyond Realm(which I do feel is about equal to DC's Monitor Sphere in terms of scale) I still have yet to see any explicit evidence suggesting that Marvel's upper-echelon dimensions scale to the same magnitude as DC's upper-echelon dimensions(ie. those that are above even the Monitor Sphere.) Perhaps Marvel does scale to such a degree and I've just never seen the evidence/scans. If anyone would know it'd be operator, though, so I'm curious what his thoughts are here.

They obviously don't scale the same as the 5th or 6th dimension that's for sure. But DC seems to be inconsistent in portraying dimensions higher than that. So DC does have infinite dimensions (according to Rama kushna) do they all scale the same way the 5th scales from 3rd? I doubt it. Since 6th is the highest plane of existence. Apart from those two i would say that marvel scales the same as DC. However the beings occupying those dimensions in Marvel are much weaker. That's for sure. Marvel's supposedly "higher dimensional" beings have a terrible record in terms of power level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ewing has made it clear that marvel omniverse/multiverse is made of individual universes.

https://i.postimg.cc/Xp4mb9pK/Al-Ewing-explains-Eternity-003.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Wh8KbtkB/IMG-20170104-175712-3280.jpg


And what happens when you go outside multiverse? There's just void.

https://i.postimg.cc/TpQdMdYw/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zyBJqsVk/image.jpg

So where is the dimension that is bigger than multiverse in marvel?

We're debating entire history of both companies not just the cosmology of one single writer. I could just as well ask you where are all those bubbles every time the 4th world is shown.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like this then?


http://i.imgur.com/Hr8Otv1.jpg

"Universes explodes within atoms"!!!

The 2 instances are completely different. Show me where universes are contained in spheres.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I expected this from Master, not you. Kubik and Kosmos went to the edge of the universe there and never beyond it hence they turned into microverse next. That would make Beyond realm even smaller as it is just at the edge of the universe.


Re-read the issue. It revolved around universe structured like a wheel. kubik and kosmos went to the highest plane of existence and then to the lowest because that's how apparently things are. Transcending the highest plane gets you back to the lowest. Really nothing ambiguous about this issue, tbh.

Originally posted by operator616
I don't get where are you getting the pocket universe thing. See those spheres in the second scan? those literally represent universes, a cosmos containing countless such spheres/universes. It's nothing similar to ones contained in helmets or hats. It may not dwarf mainstream universes, but it doesn't matter, since we have no reason to believe those universes were anything but normal ones. But even if you disagree (which is fine) the (pre and post retcon) beyond realm should satisfy your criterionI don't understand why you find this so difficult to understand, op.

A Universe existing in a sphere the size of a beach ball - the same as a Universe existing in Dr. Fate's helmet, for example - has nothing to do with what's being talked about - which is a Dimension where the mainstream Multiverse itself is inside bubbles.

I'm asking you to give me an equivalent to the 4th World.

You have failed, repeatedly, to provide arguments, and go into unrelated tangents of "Universe" existing in beach balls - which has zero relevance.

To be able to make you understand, I even gave you an example.

So.

Take a step back, and read this again:
To put it succinctly - I keep asking you to show me a hand that's as big as a building compared to yours, but you keep showing me yours compared to a miniature building that you built as a hobby.

Then come back with a better argument, once you fully do.

As I said - the pre-retcon Beyond realm may be comparable to the Fourth World, I'm still undecided.

You can go all the way back to my first post, but I can help you and quote it, if you want.



I'm using other comics because I have knowledge - better, more recent knowledge of the dimension you talked about, than the one you provided. The Macroverse was clearly defined, after the Surfer comic book, which contradicts your position. I don't care about different writers - I care about Marvel cosmology as it is clearly defined in canon. Jim Shooter probably had a different opinion of Beyonder, too - but that didn't stop the actual canon version to be vastly different than what it was initially assumed to be. Reed directly addressed the Surfer comic by clarifying that the mainstream Universe WAS NOT inside the Macroverse:

https://i.imgur.com/S3t5Id4.png

We're not about to discuss pre-retcon beyonder and pre-retcon Macroverse . We're not going into looney-tunes absurdity here.

So, no. You used outdated statements from a Surfer comic that has since been clarified.

I'm not into people not accepting the evidence, op. So if you continue to do so, I will put an end to the discussion.

Do you have other evidence, or is this a wrap?

When I brought up the Eternities, my comment was that DC doesn't have something on that scale - multiple embodiments of Multiverses existing in the same cosmology - based on what is known of both franchises.

Instead, DC cosmology functions solidly on string theory and branes, and the vibrational frequencies of said strings and branes. The Orrery of Worlds is the lowest dimensional brane, existing below the Sphere of the Gods, which in turn exists below the Monitor Sphere, then the Source Wall which separates everything from the Overmonitor.

Long story short: the DC cosmology is shaped through different branes which exist at different vibrational frequencies.

The Marvel multiverse structure is defined by divergence in time, but it is also a multiverse that possesses a Brane structure, like the DC Multiverse, because the cosmic abstracts are able to interact with each other and exist on higher-dimensional planes.

https://i.postimg.cc/GT0t9K6p/PBLO.jpg

Up to at least 16-dimensions, according to this scan. It can be said to be how cosmic entities like the Living Tribunal can act in individual realities without causing time divergences - they already exist "outside" those timelines.

But the Beyonders themselves also exist and come from their own higher-dimensional Universe, one which the Living Tribunal itself mentions, and is where the energies for the Cosmic Cubes come from.

In other words, another Universe on a higher dimension separate from the main Marvel Multiverses in their entirety - separate from the First Firmament, the Second to Sixth Cosmos, and separate from the two-in-one Seventh and Eighth Cosmos.

The Marvel cosmology allows for more than one cosmic embodiment of infinite multiverses to exist at any one time, with the Far Shore (and whatever is beyond it) being another plane of existence where those other Eternities reside.

On the other hand, most of the infinite Universes (or multiverses) of the DCU are confined within the Bleed. With the Bleed itself being a "brane" within the Sphere of the Gods, housing its own dimensions; the Sphere of Gods being a "brane" within the Monitor Sphere.

It is easier to judge which is bigger based on looking at the cosmology as a whole

@philosohpia: Why are you so hinged on the macroverse to begin with? It's just a name given to a particular level of existence and there are infinite levels above it -- not called the macroverse, so let's call them the A-realms. Here, that's better.

So great, the macroverse has been retconned -- which as i said is irrelevant in the first place because it's used in different contexts -- what happened to the A-realms? Did they just disappear or what?

But to answer your last comment, ive posted everything i have so if you're not convinced this will be a waste of both of our time from now on.

Originally posted by operator616




We're debating entire history of both companies not just the cosmology of one single writer. I could just as well ask you where are all those bubbles every time the 4th world is shown.

Why? Who said we are debating entire history of both companies? Final Crisis explicitly showed even a single new god as bigger than the multiverse. Why would universes in bubbles be necessary then?

Why? Both are universes in atoms, first prove that those universes were as big as a normal universe because realm unknown isn't as big as a multiverse.





Seriously? They straight up said it was a single universe they went around. Are you turning into master and confusing universe with multiverse?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
When I brought up the Eternities, my comment was that DC doesn't have something on that scale - multiple embodiments of Multiverses existing in the same cosmology - based on what is known of both franchises.

Instead, DC cosmology functions solidly on string theory and branes, and the vibrational frequencies of said strings and branes. The Orrery of Worlds is the lowest dimensional brane, existing below the Sphere of the Gods, which in turn exists below the Monitor Sphere, then the Source Wall which separates everything from the Overmonitor.

Long story short: the DC cosmology is shaped through different branes which exist at different vibrational frequencies.

The Marvel multiverse structure is defined by divergence in time, but it is also a multiverse that possesses a Brane structure, like the DC Multiverse, because the cosmic abstracts are able to interact with each other and exist on higher-dimensional planes.

https://i.postimg.cc/GT0t9K6p/PBLO.jpg

Up to at least 16-dimensions, according to this scan. It can be said to be how cosmic entities like the Living Tribunal can act in individual realities without causing time divergences - they already exist "outside" those timelines.

But the Beyonders themselves also exist and come from their own higher-dimensional Universe, one which the Living Tribunal itself mentions, and is where the energies for the Cosmic Cubes come from.

In other words, another Universe on a higher dimension separate from the main Marvel Multiverses in their entirety - separate from the First Firmament, the Second to Sixth Cosmos, and separate from the two-in-one Seventh and Eighth Cosmos.

The Marvel cosmology allows for more than one cosmic embodiment of infinite multiverses to exist at any one time, with the Far Shore (and whatever is beyond it) being another plane of existence where those other Eternities reside.

On the other hand, most of the infinite Universes (or multiverses) of the DCU are confined within the Bleed. With the Bleed itself being a "brane" within the Sphere of the Gods, housing its own dimensions; the Sphere of Gods being a "brane" within the Monitor Sphere.

It is easier to judge which is bigger based on looking at the cosmology as a whole
DC multiverse already has infinite dimensions.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111238764/4834110-8508705470-45534.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely. Moreover, marvel dimensions don't become infinitely bigger with each dimensions.

Originally posted by abhilegend
DC multiverse already has infinite dimensions.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111238764/4834110-8508705470-45534.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely. Moreover, marvel dimensions don't become infinitely bigger with each dimensions.

What are you talking about? That's not even adressing the point I'm making.
Everything within the Source Wall is just one Multiverse, even when you take into account Convergence bringing back past iterations of the Multiverse within the Bleed. There is what is within the Bleed, the Orrery of Worlds, and then there is what exists in the Sphere of the Gods and Monitor Sphere. That's all one Multiverse, as defined by Morrison's map, and the limit of the Presence's Creation (thus of the DC Multiverse).

The fact that all of those dimensions and branes are interconnected with one another. Heaven, Hell, Nightmare, Dream, Highland, and the Underworld are all connected to the worlds inside the Bleed; they simply exist on a higher vibrational realm/brane than the Universes in the Bleed do, with the same applying to the Monitor Sphere.

They are individual realms and dimensions, but the way the Multiverse is set up makes all of them part of one Multiverse.

AND Actually, the Fifth Dimension is situated within proximity to the Bleed, so it is not "outside" the Multiverse, but part of it. try again

https://i.postimg.cc/KKqMNCsp/troll.jpg

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
What are you talking about? That's not even adressing the point I'm making.
Everything within the Source Wall is just one Multiverse, even when you take into account Convergence bringing back past iterations of the Multiverse within the Bleed. There is what is within the Bleed, the Orrery of Worlds, and then there is what exists in the Sphere of the Gods and Monitor Sphere. That's all one Multiverse, as defined by Morrison's map, and the limit of the Presence's Creation (thus of the DC Multiverse).

The fact that all of those dimensions and branes are interconnected with one another. Heaven, Hell, Nightmare, Dream, Highland, and the Underworld are all connected to the worlds inside the Bleed; they simply exist on a higher vibrational realm/brane than the Universes in the Bleed do, with the same applying to the Monitor Sphere.

They are individual realms and dimensions, but the way the Multiverse is set up makes all of them part of one Multiverse.
Haha, WTF? Sphere of gods is above multiverse, so big that just a new god is bigger than multiverse. How is it the same multiverse? Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
AND Actually, the Fifth Dimension is situated within proximity to the Bleed, so it is not "outside" the Multiverse, but part of it. try again

https://i.postimg.cc/KKqMNCsp/troll.jpg

Again, shut up.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/37/Perpetua_Multiverse5.jpeg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, WTF? Sphere of gods is above multiverse, so big that just a new god is bigger than multiverse. How is it the same multiverse?

Again, shut up.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/3/37/Perpetua_Multiverse5.jpeg


the 6th dimension is still inside the Source Wall. So 5 would be too.

The Source Wall was explicitly made to seal all of Perpetua's creation from the Void.

That's why the Anti-Monitor gets upset, his realm was supposed to surround everything, but the Source Wall rendered it null and void. The Dark Multiverse is inside the Source Wall too, but it's not on the map either, the map only shows 4D space, but we know stuff in the map rotates through 5D space (the House of Heroes)

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why? Who said we are debating entire history of both companies? Final Crisis explicitly showed even a single new god as bigger than the multiverse. Why would universes in bubbles be necessary then?

Why? Both are universes in atoms, first prove that those universes were as big as a normal universe because realm unknown isn't as big as a multiverse.

Seriously? They straight up said it was a single universe they went around. Are you turning into master and confusing universe with multiverse?

Because that's what the discussion is about. And you missed the point, but here let me try again: every time the multiverse is featured in DC now do we assume it has infinite dimensions (upper) even though it is not mentioned in the arc?

You're asking me to prove a negative. Why will those universes not be normal?

Where in my post did i mention the multiverse? i was talking about levels of existence.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the 6th dimension is still inside the Source Wall. So 5 would be too.

The Source Wall was explicitly made to seal all of Perpetua's creation from the Void.

That's why the Anti-Monitor gets upset, his realm was supposed to surround everything, but the Source Wall rendered it null and void. The Dark Multiverse is inside the Source Wall too, but it's not on the map either, the map only shows 4D space, but we know stuff in the map rotates through 5D space (the House of Heroes)

Seriously, shut up troll. The map of multiverse straight up shows source wall sorrounding the multiverse.

https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely, yet here's this guy.

facepalm

Originally posted by operator616
Because that's what the discussion is about. And you missed the point, but here let me try again: every time the multiverse is featured in DC now do we assume it has infinite dimensions (upper) even though it is not mentioned in the arc?

No, it's about current cosmology.

Absolutely, unless its retconned.

Because they are subatomic.

For what purpose? They were dimension within a universe, useless in this discussion. We are talking about fourth world which is infinitely bigger than the multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's about current cosmology.

Absolutely, unless its retconned.

Because they are subatomic.

For what purpose? They were dimension within a universe, useless in this discussion. We are talking about fourth world which is infinitely bigger than the multiverse.

Which includes all past history, yes, i agree.

Thus my point is proven. We apply it by default. Anyway did you see my scans regarding beyonders, debasers, gardeners, etc...?

They were never mentioned to be subatomic so that's an assumption on your part.

And so is the beyond realm.

Originally posted by operator616
Which includes all past history, yes, i agree.

Thus my point is proven. We apply it by default. Anyway did you see my scans regarding beyonders, debasers, gardeners, etc...?

They were never mentioned to be subatomic so that's an assumption on your part.

And so is the beyond realm.

was just curious, regarding this https://imgur.com/a/K6UcsFL

Are these Al Ewing stories....?
If so...he was already called on the carpet for interchanging omniverse and multiverse...since Marvel long ago established the omniverse is absolutely everything...so there is no "beyond" "everything".

Originally posted by operator616
Which includes all past history, yes, i agree.

Unless its retconned.

Ultimates retconned it as nothing is outside Eternity.

They are universes within atoms, unless atoms are something foreign for you, that's just stupid.

Not anymore after FF 319 retcon.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
was just curious, regarding this https://imgur.com/a/K6UcsFL

Are these Al Ewing stories....?
If so...he was already called on the carpet for interchanging omniverse and multiverse...since Marvel long ago established the omniverse is absolutely everything...so there is no "beyond" "everything".

Yes, Captain America & Mighty Avengers #6-7 written by Ewing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Unless its retconned.

Ultimates retconned it as nothing is outside Eternity.

They are universes within atoms, unless atoms are something foreign for you, that's just stupid.

Not anymore after FF 319 retcon.

Which nothing has, fortunately.

Yeah, always you and your retcons.

So no proof they were atomic universes? Ok then, moving on.

Which was then expanded upon in FF annual #24 and #26 where it returned to its full glory.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Seriously, shut up troll. The map of multiverse straight up shows source wall sorrounding the multiverse.

https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

Fifth dimension is beyond the multiverse entirely, yet here's this guy.

facepalm

EXCEPT We know that all of Perpetua's stuff was sealed off from the Void by the Source Wall. Issue 22, the Forger says the Source Wall closes "us off from the Greater Omniverse," then he proceeds to teleport himself to the Dark Multiverse. This means the Dark Multiverse is bound by the Source Wall. The 6th dimension is also within the Source Wall, not outside it, because it is where the Monitors reform when they die, and if they could just easily travel to and from the greater omniverse, then the Source Wall wouldn't have closed them off from it. The House of Heroes is within the Multiverse, and within the 5th dimension, making it still inside the Source Wall.


and finally, this fourth wall scan has been retconned at this point, since we have a multiverse map and that's not really how it works.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80518/6897121-0007872617-HLPSv.jpg

"The DCU itself exists inside bubbles in the 4th world"

WHICH is not actually true given the Multiversity map. blame retcons eh LOL?
the planets are not inside the 4th world in any way. The 4th world is also no longer a contiguous place.

literally, Have you seen the multiverse map? New Genesis and Apokalips in their true forms aren't near each other vibrationally. Sure you can see them together when you get brought to one, but given everything in DC is about vibrations, vibrationall there are other realms "between" New Genesis and Apokalips, and "between" Apokalips and Earths.

Originally posted by operator616
Yes, Captain America & Mighty Avengers #6-7 written by Ewing.



Which nothing has, fortunately.

Read Ultimates.

Don't be AlbertoJohnAvil, ok? Atomic universes are sub atomic by default.

Scans?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
EXCEPT We know that all of Perpetua's stuff was sealed off from the Void by the Source Wall. Issue 22, the Forger says the Source Wall closes "us off from the Greater Omniverse," then he proceeds to teleport himself to the Dark Multiverse. This means the Dark Multiverse is bound by the Source Wall. The 6th dimension is also within the Source Wall, not outside it, because it is where the Monitors reform when they die, and if they could just easily travel to and from the greater omniverse, then the Source Wall wouldn't have closed them off from it. The House of Heroes is within the Multiverse, and within the 5th dimension, making it still inside the Source Wall.


and finally, this fourth wall scan has been retconned at this point, since we have a multiverse map and that's not really how it works.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80518/6897121-0007872617-HLPSv.jpg Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
"The DCU itself exists inside bubbles in the 4th world"

WHICH is not actually true given the Multiversity map. blame retcons eh LOL?
the planets are not inside the 4th world in any way. The 4th world is also no longer a contiguous place.

literally, Have you seen the multiverse map? New Genesis and Apokalips in their true forms aren't near each other vibrationally. Sure you can see them together when you get brought to one, but given everything in DC is about vibrations, vibrationall there are other realms "between" New Genesis and Apokalips, and "between" Apokalips and Earths.
This is just utter stupidity at this point.

facepalm

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is just utter stupidity at this point.

facepalm


concession accepted

Originally posted by abhilegend
Read Ultimates.

Don't be AlbertoJohnAvil, ok? Atomic universes are sub atomic by default.

Scans?

Already have.

Whatever

You posted the FF annual 24 scans yourself where eternity dwindles into insignificance. The FF annual 26 had Kubik speculating on the origins of the celestials and mentioning their origins may lie in the beyond realm beyond the multiverse. https://imgur.com/a/axkvBAN
It's also under the same writer so it's very much plausible that that Eternity is a multiverse. Obviously you'll disagree so i won't bother commenting on the issue further.

Originally posted by operator616
Already have.

Whatever

You posted the FF annual 24 scans yourself where eternity dwindles into insignificance. The FF annual 26 had Kubik speculating on the origins of the celestials and mentioning their origins may lie in the beyond realm beyond the multiverse. https://imgur.com/a/axkvBAN
It's also under the same writer so it's very much plausible that that Eternity is a multiverse. Obviously you'll disagree so i won't bother commenting on the issue further.
... opr ripping cyber souls apart!

I know it's frustrating, but continue to post the truth with proof brother,

that's our only weapon vs intransigence.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
AND Actually, the Fifth Dimension is situated within proximity to the Bleed, so it is not "outside" the Multiverse, but part of it. try again

https://i.postimg.cc/KKqMNCsp/troll.jpg Wrong.

The Bleed = imagination = 5D energy:
https://i.imgur.com/lJTmrOO.jpg
"Imagination is the blood of the multiverse, the energy that flows between the realms."


However, the 5th dimension itself resides OUTSIDE the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/XmoMvG7.jpg

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the 6th dimension is still inside the Source Wall. Wrong.

The 6th dimension is obviously outside the multiverse as well. Perpetua created the multiversal superstructure from within the 6th dimension, and was literally holding the entire thing in the palm of her hand.

how can the 6th be outside when it was called both the penthouse of the multiverse and the control center of the multiverse...? and where was that 5th dimension scan from? it seems from mxy's retelling that he was implying the 5 dimension was simply the one beyond time when he was describing the structure of the multiverse. those 2 scans appear to contradict each other imo. legit question: is it not your understanding that the source wall was a boundary put in place to surround the multiverse? if that's the case, based on what you showed, the 5th dimension would have to pass freely THROUGH the source wall to extend beyond the multiverse.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
concession accepted

Originally posted by Galan007
Wrong.

The Bleed = imagination = 5D energy:
https://i.imgur.com/lJTmrOO.jpg
"Imagination is the blood of the multiverse, the energy that flows between the realms."


However, the 5th dimension itself resides OUTSIDE the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/XmoMvG7.jpg

Wrong.

The 6th dimension is obviously outside the multiverse as well. Perpetua created the multiversal superstructure from within the 6th dimension, and was literally holding the entire thing in the palm of her hand.

Yeah, but IT'S ALL within the Source Wall, so it just depends on what you call the Multiverse.

Originally posted by operator616
Already have.

Do it again, what's outside multiverse?





So you're turning into master, confusing universe with multiverse after all.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Yeah, but IT'S ALL within the Source Wall, so it just depends on what you call the Multiverse. Originally posted by abhilegend

lol wait are people seriously denying's Eternity multiversal?


Eternity is not the embodiment of just time. He has been called the embodiment of "Time", the Universe, and the Multiverse for Decades. He is all of time/space across the Universe, and every Universe in the Multiverse. This is statemented many times, long before the New Avengers story with the Ivory Kings or the Ultimates comic.

Eternity Infinty stated to be All realities.

https://i.postimg.cc/xqG9bKwZ/trol.jpg


Eternity stated to be Every Universe and also the Multiverse
https://i.postimg.cc/qtCTBncj/ofl.jpg

Once the Universe was destroyed and Eternity referred to it as just 1 aspect of his infinite self
https://i.postimg.cc/mh4tq2R0/onjk.jpg

it stated plainly here, 5th paragraph down that Eternity is the essence of the Multiverse. And this Cpt Marvel comic is from over 15 years ago

https://i.postimg.cc/QFvMqj0Y/pla.jpg

Again, Eternity stated to be everything on every level of creation in the cosmos. This is from 2010.
https://i.postimg.cc/jDnx2GtH/elsa.jpg

even in recent ultimates comic, Eternity's reffered as "The Multiverse"

https://i.postimg.cc/mhdBwbr3/elsas.jpg


Any denial, or head canon/suppostion after this is blatant trolling, period

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
lol wait are people seriously denying's Eternity multiversal?


Eternity is not the embodiment of just time. He has been called the embodiment of "Time", the Universe, and the Multiverse for Decades. He is all of time/space across the Universe, and every Universe in the Multiverse. This is statemented many times, long before the New Avengers story with the Ivory Kings or the Ultimates comic.

Eternity Infinty stated to be All realities.

https://i.postimg.cc/xqG9bKwZ/trol.jpg


Eternity stated to be Every Universe and also the Multiverse
https://i.postimg.cc/qtCTBncj/ofl.jpg

Once the Universe was destroyed and Eternity referred to it as just 1 aspect of his infinite self
https://i.postimg.cc/mh4tq2R0/onjk.jpg

it stated plainly here, 5th paragraph down that Eternity is the essence of the Multiverse. And this Cpt Marvel comic is from over 15 years ago

https://i.postimg.cc/QFvMqj0Y/pla.jpg

Again, Eternity stated to be everything on every level of creation in the cosmos. This is from 2010.
https://i.postimg.cc/jDnx2GtH/elsa.jpg

even in recent ultimates comic, Eternity's reffered as "The Multiverse"

https://i.postimg.cc/mhdBwbr3/elsas.jpg


Any denial, or head canon/suppostion after this is blatant trolling, period
Originally posted by abhilegend


What do you mean? Now, there's a distinct universal Eternity and a multiversal Eternity composed of individual Eternity. If you want to show Eternity as a multiverse, it must be noted in the comic.

I don't know what's funny about what I said.

@galan YES it says that BUT t that story arc also has the statement that everything that was part of Perpetua's realm (6th dimension and downwards) is sealed in by the source wall WHICH YOU ARE blatantly ignoring


So sure the 5th dimension isn't on the map multiverse, but it's still contained within the source wall and thus can still be said to be within the multiverse.


And it depends on what you mean by multiverse. Because multiverse is just a collection of universes, so it can apply to anything. Mxy clearly means one thing, but he was being controlled by the Forger at that point, so it's not like he would necessarily be telling the truth at all points (he straight up lied about the door, for instance)

Everything is funny about what you said.

lol of course it is. When you don't have an argument your last resort is laughing eh

Originally posted by Galan007
Wrong.

The Bleed = imagination = 5D energy:
https://i.imgur.com/lJTmrOO.jpg
"Imagination is the blood of the multiverse, the energy that flows between the realms."


However, the 5th dimension itself resides OUTSIDE the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/XmoMvG7.jpg

Wrong.

The 6th dimension is obviously outside the multiverse as well. Perpetua created the multiversal superstructure from within the 6th dimension, and was literally holding the entire thing in the palm of her hand.

Clear as day.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
lol of course it is. When you don't have an argument your last resort is laughing eh
Troll, Sixth Dimension existed before Perpetua created the multiverse, she showed multiverse in the palm of her hand while she was in the sixth dimension, World Forger created a duplicate multiverse inside the sixth dimension which was inside his anvil, then how the **** can the sixth dimension be inside the multiverse?

Are you retarded or something?

Originally posted by Galan007

Perpetua was literally holding the entire thing in the palm of her hand.
I can see how that's just a "visualization" of the entire thing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I can see how that's just a "visualization" of the entire thing.
Except there was no thought experiment there.

Just like there was no thought experiment over there either.

Yall deduced that being a thing based on not even direct speculative analysis.

That said,
I don't really care,
and I'm not serious here,
and I'm clearly phukin around wit Galan.

Now mind your phukin business and hop of the cyber lady killa son.

Do something, smoke tetas or eat crack,

but you know, there's things to do out there for cats like yourself.

Yes, there was. With a cat and everything.

Actually, no there wasn't. Only via dialogue was the "cat thought experiment" noted.

Also, you must've missed the point to the "cat in the box" crap

which is to see if the cat is alive or dead.

Alive or dead the cat is there in the box when you peek inside.

Just like there was an Omniverse in the box which I saw with my eyes:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/41397164_Owie.jpg

'But I was lying. See? There's an Omniverse in the box."

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Now unless you can prove that colorful glowing mass is an illusion

or some cheesy molecular light display ...

... don't come at me with this nonsense ever again.

Owen was making the point that the previous omniverse became the new omniverse. He even destroyed the box on the next page.

Ewing later even showed Eternity dying and reborn while first firmament chained him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ewing actually showed Eternity changing from seventh to eighth multiverse.

https://i.postimg.cc/xTk4zQgj/image.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vmyqkVyD/image.jpg

So which multiverse did Owen put into the box?

So where did the omniverse came from?

I know bad ass Owen, easily crushing entire Omniverses.

Oh I see.

You're under the impression
that these Multiverses are morphing from one form to another?
That this is how they die and are reborn?

No silly.

Owen said he had the previous Omniverse, while the New one was already up and running.
Owen even followed on the Iterations concept by saying the lives passed on to the new one.

The old shell (previous omniverse) is meaningless.

Which is why Owen destroyed it without a care.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So again, don't come at me with this malarkey once more.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I know bad ass Owen, easily crushing entire Omniverses.

Oh I see.

You're under the impression
that these Multiverses are morphing from one form to another?
That this is how they die and are reborn?

No silly.

Owen said he had the previous Omniverse, while the New one was already up and running.
Owen even followed on the Iterations concept by saying the lives passed on to the new one.

The old shell (previous omniverse) is meaningless.

Which is why Owen destroyed it without a care.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So again, don't come at me with this malarkey once more.
Eternity died and was reborn, the previous omniverse was destroyed in secret wars. That's exactly how the omniverse change.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/3/3c/ Ultimates_%28Multiverse%29_from_Ultimates_2_Vol_1_
100_001.jpg

Not to mention, the rest of the multiverses are shown in Ultimates 100. So which omniverse did Owen destroyed?

At this point, you're simply trolling. Its amusing.

Exactly. They die, out with the old, and are reborn as something new, in with the new.

Ulti 100, yes, so uhm, then they never died anyway? This shit is too funny.

I'd love for that to be the case. You're in a catch 22: I'm right one way or another lol.

"trolling?" ... says the guy who was banned Twice for literally trolling.

---------------------------------------------------------

Bring it son, yeeeaah baby, wut?

I'm starting to enter your realm b*tch, the realm of phuk it, and phuk that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly. They die, out with the old, and are reborn as something new, in with the new.

Ulti 100, yes, so uhm, then they never died anyway? This shit is too funny.

I'd love for that to be the case. You're in a catch 22: I'm right one way or another lol.

"trolling?" ... says the guy who was banned Twice for literally trolling.

---------------------------------------------------------

Bring it son, yeeeaah baby, wut?

I'm starting to enter your realm b*tch, the realm of phuk it, and phuk that.
One question, which omniverse did Owen destroyed out of the previous seven omniverses?

Answer it please. I want a good laugh.

... you never get comics.

Or, you selectively loose site of what a comic is when it conveniences you.

You're so easy.

Do you do this high? ... ahhh Abhi is boss!

Originally posted by Mr Master
... you never get comics.

Or, you selectively loose site of what a comic is when it conveniences you.

You're so easy.

Do you do this high? ... ahhh Abhi is boss!
Are you stoned? Honest question.

this entire page:

https://imgur.com/a/6AgHMV4

is literally mxy explaining the CURRENT--as per snyder/morrison--multiversal structure of dc:

"BEHOLD THE MULITIVERSE....IT IS EVERYTHING EXISTING AT ONCE"

the 6th dimension is "the very tip top" of everything. it exists BEYOND IMAGINATION, but it stills exists within the multiverse as defined by the source wall. it's also where the wf and his brothers go to reform when they die. how could they reform OUTSIDE the source wall...?

it also clearly states the 6th dimension is BEYOND imagination, meaning the 5th dimension is below the 6th. again, imo, the clear implication is that all these dimensions reside withIN the multiverse as defined by the wall.

https://imgur.com/a/6AgHMV4

the source wall was the shell holding the multiverse in place.

that scan that says the 5th dimension is outside the multiverse is similar to the macroverse business phil was discussing with op (and i agree with phil, btw): new info supersedes older info. in light of synder's work on metal and the jl (all based on exploration and further development of morrison's map) that scan has either been retconned or it needs to be re-interpreted.

if the 5th dimension IS outside the multiverse (ie--passes beyond/through the source wall), that means it exists in the greater omniverse, (or in the overvoid, but i think the overvoid needs to now be backed up to surround the OMNIVERSE, which....leads to some cartographical problems in itself....)

that makes no sense in the context of the story imo, nor does it fit with mxy's OWN description. i do NOT, however, think that scan needs to be 'retconned'. it can still be right--the orrery of worlds is certainly a multiverse in itself. the 5th dimension exists beyond the orrery, so it can easily and correctly be said to exist outside the multiverse--just not outside the...greater mutliverse, or source wall, which, again, makes no sense.

there is also a scan in one of the league books that talks about the how if you travel far enough in any universe/dimension/world you will eventually reach the source wall. maybe someone with a better memory remembers where it was and can post it.

in any event, based on the story and the the description on morrison's map (here is the limit to even thought. beyond lies only monitor mind, the source and the unknowable) i don't think it can be anymore clear that the source wall=the boundary of all dimensions/universes within the redefined dc multiverse. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
this entire page:

https://imgur.com/a/6AgHMV4

is literally mxy explaining the CURRENT--as per snyder/morrison--multiversal structure of dc:

"BEHOLD THE MULITIVERSE....IT IS EVERYTHING EXISTING AT ONCE"

the 6th dimension is "the very tip top" of everything. it exists BEYOND IMAGINATION, but it stills exists within the multiverse as defined by the source wall. it's also where the wf and his brothers go to reform when they die. how could they reform OUTSIDE the source wall...?

it also clearly states the 6th dimension is BEYOND imagination, meaning the 5th dimension is below the 6th. again, imo, the clear implication is that all these dimensions reside withIN the multiverse as defined by the wall.

https://imgur.com/a/6AgHMV4

the source wall was the shell holding the multiverse in place.

that scan that says the 5th dimension is outside the multiverse is similar to the macroverse business phil was discussing with op (and i agree with phil, btw): new info supersedes older info. in light of synder's work on metal and the jl (all based on exploration and further development of morrison's map) that scan has either been retconned or it needs to be re-interpreted.

if the 5th dimension IS outside the multiverse (ie--passes beyond/through the source wall), that means it exists in the greater omniverse, (or in the overvoid, but i think the overvoid needs to now be backed up to surround the OMNIVERSE, which....leads to some cartographical problems in itself....)

that makes no sense in the context of the story imo, nor does it fit with mxy's OWN description. i do NOT, however, think that scan needs to be 'retconned'. it can still be right--the orrery of worlds is certainly a multiverse in itself. the 5th dimension exists beyond the orrery, so it can easily and correctly be said to exist outside the multiverse--just not outside the...greater mutliverse, or source wall, which, again, makes no sense.

there is also a scan in one of the league books that talks about the how if you travel far enough in any universe/dimension/world you will eventually reach the source wall. maybe someone with a better memory remembers where it was and can post it.

in any event, based on the story and the the description on morrison's map (here is the limit to even thought. beyond lies only monitor mind, the source and the unknowable) i don't think it can be anymore clear that the source wall=the boundary of all dimensions/universes within the redefined dc multiverse. /shrug
You're interpreting it as Sixth Dimension being inside the multiverse due to the Source Wall but the same issue showed Sixth Dimension existed before Perpetua created the multiverse and it was in her palm.

https://i.postimg.cc/Lqq4gPwD/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/Q91X03XW/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/9w2cknMg/image.jpg

Perpetua even says that she created the multiverse as positive, anti matter and dark matter, 5th dimension is not created by her.

So either Source Wall is bigger than multiverse/5th dimension which is not possible as Morrison's map is referred in the arc, or you're wrong and sixth dimension is beyond the Source Wall.

Slow but steady we find the cracks on Snyder's cosmology as he obviously bit more than he could chew

any time one writer (even morrison's original map wasn't perfect) tries to do something as all-encompassing as this (rewriting/redefining the entire multiverse) there is bound to be issues of consistency. but since the forum is all about 'current' versions, it does force us to look at things with new eyes, imo. not everything will make sense, but i think we need to try and make them make sense in light of what is currently taking place with morrison's foundation. /shrug

The scans I already posted couldn't have been clearer, imo, but I'll try to explain in greater detail since Albert evidently has a hard time with this stuff...

The 5th dimension = imagination, and at a literal/metafictional level, imagination comprises almost EVERYTHING in the comics we read. So in THAT respect, there is certainly 5D power within the multiverse(inc. the Bleed) -- Mxy said as much. However, the 5th dimension/Zrfff itself sits OUTSIDE the multiverse(I posted the scan), and the 6th dimension is a level/scale above even the 5th dimension(duh)... The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse, and while inside the 6th dimension, Perpetua was literally holding the entire multiversal superstructure in the palm of her hand:

https://i.imgur.com/NQqyXgv.jpg

...So I'm confused how people could think the 6th dimension(which is the realm Perpetua is standing in) actually resides inside the multiverse she is holding? That's like me picking up a basketball, then claiming that myself AND the entire universe now exist INSIDE that basketball.

I don't mind a good discussion, but it seems like some pretty cut-and-dry facts are being willfully ignore here, and I'm not sure why..? To try and lessen DC's established cosmology, and/or make it seem like Marvel's is actually superior?

I don't get it.

I'll address this soon

If you're going to "address" it by ignoring what we have been explicitly shown/told on panel, then please don't bother.

Originally posted by Galan007
If you're going to "address" it by ignoring what we have been explicitly shown/told on panel, then please don't bother.

you're misinterpreting context like the usual

...cuz Surfer blew up that ship, right!? dur


Don't be a dumbass.

what a clown

Okay first of all first.

Abhilegend.


1. If the 6th dimension is beyond the Source Wall, then the Monitors wouldnt have been cut off from the Greater Omniverse.


2. GALAN, I don't think it's in the multiverse she's holding, but multiverse can mean anything.

The Sphere of the Gods is on the multiverse map, but sometimes just the Earths are called the multiverse, for instance, so even in DC people use the word differently.

The Source Wall surrounds the Dark Multiverse, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the normal Multiverse, and together those 2 multiverses+ a universe can also collectively be called a multiverse. Add in the Sphere of Gods, and you can still call it a multiverse. Add in the 5thD and the 6thD, and you can still call it a multiverse.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Okay first of all first.

Abhilegend.


1. If the 6th dimension is beyond the Source Wall, then the Monitors wouldnt have been cut off from the Greater Omniverse.


2. GALAN, I don't think it's in the multiverse she's holding, but multiverse can mean anything.

The Sphere of the Gods is on the multiverse map, but sometimes just the Earths are called the multiverse, for instance, so even in DC people use the word differently.

The Source Wall surrounds the Dark Multiverse, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the normal Multiverse, and together those 2 multiverses+ a universe can also collectively be called a multiverse. Add in the Sphere of Gods, and you can still call it a multiverse. Add in the 5thD and the 6thD, and you can still call it a multiverse.
The monitors were trapped inside the multiverse after the multiverse was reset.