Protege vs Molecule Man

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MrMind
vs

1. Pre Retcon MM
2. Post Retcon MM

who wins

operator616
Post-retcon MM has several versions. Which one's you're using?

Pre-retcon MM should win though.

MrMind
Originally posted by operator616
Post-retcon MM has several versions. Which one's you're using?

Pre-retcon MM should win though.

most recent, the one who got killed by griever

operator616
Not sure about that one, tbh. Seems to be inconsistent.

leonidas
also may depend on where and how you view the griever. i think the intimation was--at least when owen and franklin started rebuilding the multiverse--that own>franklin, but as he continued to give away his power.... hard to say for sure. i'd say protege should beat that one--at least as he was when griever killed him. /shrug

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
also may depend on where and how you view the griever. i think the intimation was--at least when owen and franklin started rebuilding the multiverse--that own>franklin, but as he continued to give away his power.... hard to say for sure. i'd say protege should beat that one--at least as he was when griever killed him. /shrug

Even after Franklin/Owen started rebuilding the multiverse in SW 9 Owen appeared to be more powerful than ever in Ultimates.

zopzop
Protege. As long as he can witness MM using his power it's over.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Even after Franklin/Owen started rebuilding the multiverse in SW 9 Owen appeared to be more powerful than ever in Ultimates.

his depiction in ultimates felt...more grand than his depiction in FF. it seems most are now viewing his omniverse/box feat as pretty meaningless, nothing more than metaphor. so guess it would depend on his you view THAT feat as well.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
his depiction in ultimates felt...more grand than his depiction in FF. it seems most are now viewing his omniverse/box feat as pretty meaningless, nothing more than metaphor. so guess it would depend on his you view THAT feat as well.

I disagree that it was merely a metaphor but even that aside Lifebringer Galactus (who was able to fight off 2 abstracts) said that Owen can end him with a thought. That's still a ridiculous amount of power right there. Not to mention he was able to hide in a reality beyond the multiverse from the first firmament for what it's worth. But yeah i can see your point.

leonidas
yeah, i'm not sold on the metaphor idea either--or not completely. he was definitely intended to be viewed as well above--outside/beyond--the other marvel cosmic beings in that run--many of them fully manifested multiverses. of that i don't think there can be too much doubt.

Galan007
In hindsight, I definitely think that the "multiverse in a box" scene was intended to be a primarily metaphorical visual representation of the multiverse -- not an actual multiverse that Owen randomly put in a shoebox.

Owen was simplifying Schrodinger's thought experiment to Lifebringer, which revolves around the principal of quantum possibilities -- hence his initial 'cat in the box' analogy(look it up, it's an actual thing.)

However, the takeaway of the thought experiment is ultimately: "Whatever you may think you know, you don't really know what's in the box until you open it up and look inside" -- and that's what Owen was conveying to Lifebringer there with his visual representation of the multiverse. It was his way of explaining that much of what used to be in the previous creation, still was.

Tbh, the whole issue was full of metaphors. It also started and ended with the myth of Sisyphus and the impossible task, for example.

________________


As for Owen: he was definitely intended to be ridiculously powerful under Ewing -- vastly above Lifebringer, for sure... But also keep in mind that the entire cosmic hierarchy was in a state of flux at the time, and things were able to happen then that wouldn't normally be possible in a 'solidified' cosmology(like Order&Chaos killing LT, for example.) So it's really hard to accurately gauge power-levels from that particular series, imo.

Owen certainly didn't appear to be kept at those same Supreme Being-esque levels in his most recent appearances, though. /shrug

Astner
To be fair, it's through the Molecule Man's power that the multiverse was recreated.

operator616
Originally posted by Galan007
In hindsight, I definitely think that the "multiverse in a box" scene was intended to be a primarily metaphorical visual representation of the multiverse -- not an actual multiverse that Owen randomly put in a shoebox.

Owen was simplifying Schrodinger's thought experiment to Lifebringer, which revolves around the principal of quantum possibilities -- hence his initial 'cat in the box' analogy(look it up, it's an actual thing.)

However, the takeaway of the thought experiment is ultimately: "Whatever you may think you know, you don't really know what's in the box until you open it up and look inside" -- and that's what Owen was conveying to Lifebringer there with his visual representation of the multiverse. It was his way of explaining that much of what used to be in the previous creation, still was.

Tbh, the whole issue was full of metaphors. It also started and ended with the myth of Sisyphus and the impossible task, for example.



The thing is, the whole point of Schrodinger's thought experiment is to ridicule the idea. It's a legit idea alright, but it applies only to quantum systems. As in small scale stuff not cats or people and certainly not universes. As i understand it Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to point out how ridiculous the idea seemed when applied to human sized objects -- specifically to highlight that that's not how every day sized objects behave and why quantum physics is counter-intuitive. I agree that it's quite a vague scene filled with scientific jargon which Ewing probably doesn't understand even, but i honestly don't see how the 2 are connected...? So the fact that you can't be sure if something actually exists until you observe it is somehow meant to convey that much of the previous creation remained intact? Even though Galactus has been observing the latest reality already? Not connecting the dots here at all...

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
The thing is, the whole point of Schrodinger's thought experiment is to ridicule the idea. It's a legit idea alright, but it applies only to quantum systems. As in small scale stuff not cats or people and certainly not universes. As i understand it Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to point out how ridiculous the idea seemed when applied to human sized objects -- specifically to highlight that that's not how every day sized objects behave and why quantum physics is counter-intuitive. I agree that it's quite a vague scene filled with scientific jargon which Ewing probably doesn't understand even, but i honestly don't see how the 2 are connected...? So the fact that you can't be sure if something actually exists until you observe it is somehow meant to convey that much of the previous creation remained intact? Even though Galactus has been observing the latest reality already? Not connecting the dots here at all... Owen begins explaining the human thought experiment to Lifebringer, using Schrodinger's 'cat in a box' paradox. However, he then shifts their discussion to the current state of the multiverse using the same basic analogy: that everything isn't necessarily as it seems -- there could be anything inside the box('box' being a metaphor for the unsolidified Marvel multiverse that was in a state of flux at the time.)

As mentioned, the entire scene was packed with different metaphors and whatnot... Which was Owen's way of explaining the current state of the multiverse to Lifebringer, without being overly explicit:
https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41379704_Ultimates_2015-_006-016.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41379705_Ultimates_2015-_006-017.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41379706_Ultimates_2015-_006-018.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/41379707_Ultimates_2015-_006-019.jpg


The 'multiverse in a box' thing was purely a visual aid that Owen used to help Lifebringer see the bigger picture, imo. All context considered, we are really never led to believe that he placed an actual/full-scale multiverse inside a shoebox for the lulz, just to randomly show it off like that... /shrug

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