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Perpetual night.

Well?

loki has too many options here. bfr is an obvious and cheap way to win every time, but intangibility would make it impossible for hulk to hit him. transmutation would also be an issue though hulk has some feats of resisting that or healing past it. something like a sleep spell could work though and i'm not even going into some of his more exotic attack options. a full capacity loki is a tough match up for most, let alone one dimensional bricks.

Leo, Loki isn't what he used to be. War of the Realms shows this fact in vivid colors. I don't think he'd win this.

.....he just killed his dad and became king of the entire realm...

SPOILERS DS JESUS

You can just call me DS, but DS Jesus also suffices.

Will do

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
.....he just killed his dad and became king of the entire realm...

And the Hulk couldn't do the same? He also had a powerful weapon.

My point was that he's hardly diminished in that storyline.....

Already been confirmed that Hulk is more powerful than Loki and the team he was on during the time. Outright said Hulk is above him. Yes, Hulk powers through his attacks and win. Loki needs a team for this.

I thought you were all about the versatility, Carv?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought you were all about the versatility, Carv?

I am which is why I said Hulk powers through his versatility. Anything Loki can conjure, Hulk have bypassed it...

Even bfr

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41624451/SmartSelect_20190718-071112_Chrome.jpg.html

So you think the Space Stone is not a temp amp?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you think the Space Stone is not a temp amp?

He said "as the most powerful".

Also mentioned here...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41624467/SmartSelect_20190718-071609_Chrome.jpg.html

Originally posted by carver9
He said "as the most powerful".

Also mentioned here...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41624467/SmartSelect_20190718-071609_Chrome.jpg.html This scene was so laughably retarded.

She wanks Hulk like he can use the space gem to preform some sort of esoteric feat we've never seen before...But then all he does is fly, lol.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624495_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624496_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-016.jpg

Wow... Super creative way to use the infinite power of the space gem there, Hulkie.

Originally posted by carver9
He said "as the most powerful".

Also mentioned here...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41624467/SmartSelect_20190718-071609_Chrome.jpg.html

Not sure how that helps with BFR, but ok

Originally posted by Galan007
This scene was so laughably retarded.

She wanks Hulk like he can use the space gem to preform some sort of esoteric feat we've never seen before...But then all he does is fly, lol.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624495_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624496_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-016.jpg

Wow... Super creative way to use the infinite power of the space gem there, Hulkie.

As always, CIS and in character rulings are in play lol

Originally posted by Galan007
This scene was so laughably retarded.

She wanks Hulk like he can use the space gem to preform some sort of esoteric feat we've never seen before...But then all he does is fly, lol.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624495_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624496_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-016.jpg

Wow... Super creative way to use the infinite power of the space gem there, Hulkie.

Agreed but in issue 6, he did use the gem to punch a black hole inside of someone.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not sure how that helps with BFR, but ok

If Hulk doesnt want to get bfred, it's not going to happen.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed but in issue 6, he did use the gem to punch a black hole inside of someone. Yeah, that was neat.

I'm just talking about the scene you posted. Emma's like: "Z0MG!!!! Watch what the most powaful one of us can do with the space gem!!!111!1!!!"

Then he just.... Flies. none

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, that was neat.

I'm just talking about the scene you posted. Emma's like: "Z0MG!!!! Watch what the most powaful one of us can do with the space gem!!!111!1!!!"

Then he just.... Flies. none

i've only barely been following war of the realms--i think it really sucks--so i'm not up on the MOST current loki. i guess if the current version is being shown less capable than the classic one, then maybe hulk can win. and are we giving hulk a gem in this...?

anyway, current, who cares? classic loki still wins this every time.

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed but in issue 6, he did use the gem to punch a black hole inside of someone.
So the most powerful hero in Marvel, amped by the infinite power of the Space Stone, is Billy Batson level?

I kid, I kid.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've only barely been following war of the realms--i think it really sucks--so i'm not up on the MOST current loki. i guess if the current version is being shown less capable than the classic one, then maybe hulk can win. and are we giving hulk a gem in this...?

anyway, current, who cares? classic loki still wins this every time.

Naah, not the gem. He is just considered the most powerful on a team that have Loki on it. Hulk is the powerhouse of the team.

Power =/= winning the fight.

There's lots of characters that are more powerful than another one, but they'd lose to them. Match-ups and match-ups.

Versatility is a b*tch.

Only when the 'specialist' is SO specialized, does it make a difference.
Flash, for example. All he does is speed.....but with forum rules as they are, he can trump many others who are more versatile than him.

But at this level, over the distance? Am surprised Carv suddenly doesn't support versatility, unlike in the Surfer/Doomsday thread and the Blue Marvel/WW thread....

^ Those threads didn't have Hulk, though.

Hulk can apparently punch versatility in its face.

We're 15 years into carver not realizing that no matter how strong and durable Hulk will ever get, he can't win against specific power sets, like people who can simply suspend him helpless in air, or who can make it so that they're never touched etc.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Those threads didn't have Hulk, though.

Hulk can apparently punch versatility in its face.

I agree with Phil. That's why people like Surfer, Beta Ray Bill and Stardust stomps any version of Doomsday skull in.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Only when the 'specialist' is SO specialized, does it make a difference.
Flash, for example. All he does is speed.....but with forum rules as they are, he can trump many others who are more versatile than him.

But at this level, over the distance? Am surprised Carv suddenly doesn't support versatility, unlike in the Surfer/Doomsday thread and the Blue Marvel/WW thread....

Are you implying the forum rules are bias towards only speed? If so, I agree.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree with Phil. That's why people like Surfer, Beta Ray Bill and Stardust stomps any version of World Breaker Hulk's skull in.

fix that for you my boy

Originally posted by carver9
Are you implying the forum rules are bias towards only speed? If so, I agree.

It's not a bias, it's fact.

There's a reason why militaries have been moving toward faster and faster weaponry. From hand held weapons, to slingshots,to arrows, to crossbows, to muskets, to rifles, to missiles, to ICBMs.....propellor driven planes to jet fighters.....speed is and always has been the primary driver of offensive weaponry.

You don't see fighters practicing to be slow, do you?

Originally posted by Galan007
This scene was so laughably retarded.

She wanks Hulk like he can use the space gem to preform some sort of esoteric feat we've never seen before...But then all he does is fly, lol.

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624495_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/41624496_Infinity_Wars_05_of_06-016.jpg

Wow... Super creative way to use the infinite power of the space gem there, Hulkie.

GALAN, YOU MONSTER

YOU'RE THE HERALD OF THE LUCIFERIAN AGE

LOOK AT THE LAST PANEL

YOU F*CKING ANTI-CHRIST

I'M REPORTING YOU TO BLUEDICKRIDER

http://i66.tinypic.com/1z5i6g7.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not a bias, it's fact.

There's a reason why militaries have been moving toward faster and faster weaponry. From hand held weapons, to slingshots,to arrows, to crossbows, to muskets, to rifles, to missiles, to ICBMs.....propellor driven planes to jet fighters.....speed is and always has been the primary driver of offensive weaponry.

You don't see fighters practicing to be slow, do you?

So you mention speed but in the same post you mention versatility. The military isnt focusing on ONE weapon either. Even though speed is a factor, they are also trying to revolutionize the weaponry their weapons.

And yes, you are bias.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not a bias, it's fact.

There's a reason why militaries have been moving toward faster and faster weaponry. From hand held weapons, to slingshots,to arrows, to crossbows, to muskets, to rifles, to missiles, to ICBMs.....propellor driven planes to jet fighters.....speed is and always has been the primary driver of offensive weaponry.

You don't see fighters practicing to be slow, do you?
Oh I don't think that's true at all. Yes speed is a big issue, but it's not like their primary goal is to have rapid firing hand held weapons and slingshots, what the military wants more than anything is to have a lot of options. They want the most efficient ways to bring down the enemy in any given situation whether it's high tech machine guns, napalm, poison gas, cruise missiles, EMPs, or anything else they manage to cook up.

Originally posted by carver9
So you mention speed but in the same post you mention versatility. The military isnt focusing on ONE weapon either. Even though speed is a factor, they are also trying to revolutionize the weaponry their weapons.

And yes, you are bias.

Of course they're not.

But speed is a primary attribute.

Who wins - a guy with a Swiss army knife which can do 101 different things, or a guy with a gun?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I don't think that's true at all. Yes speed is a big issue, but it's not like their primary goal is to have rapid firing hand held weapons and slingshots, what the military wants more than anything is to have a lot of options. They want the most efficient ways to bring down the enemy in any given situation whether it's high tech machine guns, napalm, poison gas, cruise missiles, EMPs, or anything else they manage to cook up.

Exactly. I dont know what Darksaint is talking about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Of course they're not.

But speed is a primary attribute.

Who wins - a guy with a Swiss army knife which can do 101 different things, or a guy with a gun?

So if the military had a choice between a speedy weapon vs an untold amount of options for weaponry, they would choose the speedy weapon?

Originally posted by carver9
Exactly. I dont know what Darksaint is talking about.

That's a usual thing with you though lol.

If you can do 100 different things, but I can do my one thing and land my one attack on you before you can even think of which of your 100 things you're going to do to me...who wins?

Originally posted by carver9
So if the military had a choice between a speedy weapon vs an untold amount of options for weaponry, they would choose the speedy weapon?

Depends what the goal is. To win without fear of repercussions? Yes.

That's why there are nuclear strikes, delivered by....you guessed it, uncatchable missiles.

That's why soldiers are armed with guns, instead of the untold amount of options in hand to hand weapons.

That's why boxers train in hand speed, not in Shaolin temple breaking of bricks over their heads.

That's why kinetic energy weapons are a thing....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Depends what the goal is. To win without fear of repercussions? Yes.

That's why there are nuclear strikes, delivered by....you guessed it, uncatchable missiles.

That's why soldiers are armed with guns, instead of the untold amount of options in hand to hand weapons.

That's why boxers train in hand speed, not in Shaolin temple breaking of bricks over their heads.

That's why kinetic energy weapons are a thing....

Carver will nuke you with his gamma fist... durhulk

All I'm saying is, there's a reason it's called first strike and not 'tank everything and then strike back at my leisure'.

Yeah, I actually liked your posts here. Carry on.

Just keep in mind our Gamma Father might not be as forgiving and understanding as his humble servant.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Of course they're not.

But speed is a primary attribute.

Who wins - a guy with a Swiss army knife which can do 101 different things, or a guy with a gun?
Well I totally agree with speed being A primary attribute, I just disagree that it's THE primary attribute. As for the swiss knife/gun analogy, it's not really representative of the discussion because the two items are on totally different levels. You gotta close up that gap in a discussion about which is more important. If you were a about to go into combat would you rather have a comic tech sub-machine gun that fires rounds 100 times faster than any other machine gun and rounds that fly 100 times faster, or Judge Dredds gun that fires a variety of ammo upon command?

Anyway, we can totally continue if you want, but if we do we should probably move it to the discussion thread.

Frank couldn't beat a guy wearing one of Tony's suits with mere bullets.

He had to use his knife and skill

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Depends what the goal is. To win without fear of repercussions? Yes.

That's why there are nuclear strikes, delivered by....you guessed it, uncatchable missiles.

That's why soldiers are armed with guns, instead of the untold amount of options in hand to hand weapons.

That's why boxers train in hand speed, not in Shaolin temple breaking of bricks over their heads.

That's why kinetic energy weapons are a thing....

But that isnt the argument here though. I get what you're trying to say but that doesnt translate to the forum rules being bias. Speed is a necessary while versatility isnt an option. The argument is, why would a speedster allow an attack to hit when speed is a basic power of theirs. Lol... whereas someone like, SURFER would ya know, blast, or Thor wouldn't use Mjlonir versatility as a first course of action. So, Gladiator gets to utilize his speed but Surfer, who is known to use his versatility consistently will resort to blasting. Versatility to Surfer is just as much a basic ability to him as speed is to Gladiator or Wonder Woman, etc... so why hinder Surfer while making Gladiator or similar characters, whole. Then, this fighting style completely ignores their comic counterpart. An argument can be made for Flash utilizing his speed during combat situations but Gladiator or people like him, on panel showings clash against what the debating style that is being discussed across the forum is asking for. You are either going to debate powerset which excludes ALL comic showings which means, theirs no need in even posting scans, the only thing you need to prove is, they can do it... oooorrrrrr, you provide evidence using comics which shows Gladiator, in character, fighting in a fashion where people like Kalibak could slap him. At the end of the day, there's more evidence that Gladiator and characters like him gets punched by Kalibak like beings vs Thor also using his weapon primarily as a blunt force weapon.

All I am saying is, for every scan you post of Thor not utilizing Mjlonir versatility, I can post Gladiator and characters like him being hit by a brick during combat. The difference is, on KMC Thor uses Mjlonir as a blunt weapon but Gladiator have the ability to fight at speeds that are not displayed in comics.

this isn't just 'any' character we're talking about, nor it is just 'any' sort of versatility. loki has been shown multiple times to be on strange's level (or above) and magic isn't just any type of versatility--it's likely THE best all around tool in the shed--and classic loki is as good at magic as almost anyone. it's not like we're talking about some street guy who's 'versatile'. we're talking about a thor-level guy who has some ss-esque levels of versatility. hulk isn't beating a serious forum loki--no brick is.

Originally posted by leonidas
this isn't just 'any' character we're talking about, nor it is just 'any' sort of versatility. loki has been shown multiple times to be on strange's level (or above) and magic isn't just any type of versatility--it's likely THE best all around tool in the shed--and classic loki is as good at magic as almost anyone. it's not like we're talking about some street guy who's 'versatile'. we're talking about a thor-level guy who has some ss-esque levels of versatility. hulk isn't beating a serious forum loki--no brick is.

I understand what you're saying Leo. I think the argument shifted.

lol yeah i know. i was trying to bring it back around to the match at hand. i know how once you and ds make eye contact you get lost in each other....

Originally posted by leonidas
lol yeah i know. i was trying to bring it back around to the match at hand. i know how once you and ds make eye contact you get lost in each other....



The sexual tension between them is insane.

what can loki do to hulk that he hasnt resisited already

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
what can loki do to hulk that he hasnt resisited already

anal

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
anal

Very true, the Gorilla rekt Hulk this way before.

Hulk even asked him to playfully bite his neck.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I don't think that's true at all. Yes speed is a big issue, but it's not like their primary goal is to have rapid firing hand held weapons and slingshots, what the military wants more than anything is to have a lot of options. They want the most efficient ways to bring down the enemy in any given situation whether it's high tech machine guns, napalm, poison gas, cruise missiles, EMPs, or anything else they manage to cook up.


And power is a big one tbh.

The Atom bomb ended WW2. Wasnt about the speed it reached its target. Not was it about versatility. Just raw destructive power.

Originally posted by carver9
But that isnt the argument here though. I get what you're trying to say but that doesnt translate to the forum rules being bias. Speed is a necessary while versatility isnt an option. The argument is, why would a speedster allow an attack to hit when speed is a basic power of theirs. Lol... whereas someone like, SURFER would ya know, blast, or Thor wouldn't use Mjlonir versatility as a first course of action. So, Gladiator gets to utilize his speed but Surfer, who is known to use his versatility consistently will resort to blasting. Versatility to Surfer is just as much a basic ability to him as speed is to Gladiator or Wonder Woman, etc... so why hinder Surfer while making Gladiator or similar characters, whole. Then, this fighting style completely ignores their comic counterpart. An argument can be made for Flash utilizing his speed during combat situations but Gladiator or people like him, on panel showings clash against what the debating style that is being discussed across the forum is asking for. You are either going to debate powerset which excludes ALL comic showings which means, theirs no need in even posting scans, the only thing you need to prove is, they can do it... oooorrrrrr, you provide evidence using comics which shows Gladiator, in character, fighting in a fashion where people like Kalibak could slap him. At the end of the day, there's more evidence that Gladiator and characters like him gets punched by Kalibak like beings vs Thor also using his weapon primarily as a blunt force weapon.

Because versatility is NOT a basic power like speed. By it's very definition, it's not a basic power.

Put it this way. If you see a hand coming to slap you, you instinctively flinch away, right?

A kid would do it. A dog would do it. Hell, even a fly would do the same.

Defensive speed is instinctual. There's literally no conscious thought needed. A hand is coming to slap you in the face, you don't want to get hit, you flinch away.

With versatility? Conscious thought is needed. Hmm, I can do option A, or option B, or C, D, E,F,G etc etc. Option A doesn't work, because he's resisted me before; maybe B; no, C etc etc.

I may know 10,000 different martial art style. But I may use a simple punch more often than not, rather than the somersaulting tornado kicking headbutt as practiced by the praying mantis monks of Rhodesia. THAT'S what Surfer and Thor do. Sure, they have versatility. But more often than not, either because they prefer to go up close and melee (Thor) or because they are.....more comfortable, I guess? (Surfer?) With blasting, that's what they use IN CHARACTER.

With Flash and other speedsters? I mean, we all agree they DON'T want to get hit, right? So they'll use their speed to not get hit. In character. Because its instinctual. Like you flinching when someone goes to slap you.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And power is a big one tbh.

The Atom bomb ended WW2. Wasnt about the speed it reached its target. Not was it about versatility. Just raw destructive power.

Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?


Yes but speed wasnt the weapon or the game changer there. Thats the point.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but speed wasnt the weapon or the game changer there. Thats the point. Nah, the point is that that level of power would be much less effective without the means to quickly carry it to its destination.

To put it another way:

Hulk is like a nuke being carried to its destination by a wagon being pulled by a bicycle.

Superman is like a nuke being carried to its destination by the fastest jets our current technology can allow.

. Thanks weeb.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And power is a big one tbh.

The Atom bomb ended WW2. Wasnt about the speed it reached its target. Not was it about versatility. Just raw destructive power.

Exactly.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?
But they didn't use their fastest planes to deliver it, did they?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because versatility is NOT a basic power like speed. By it's very definition, it's not a basic power.

Put it this way. If you see a hand coming to slap you, you instinctively flinch away, right?

A kid would do it. A dog would do it. Hell, even a fly would do the same.

Defensive speed is instinctual. There's literally no conscious thought needed. A hand is coming to slap you in the face, you don't want to get hit, you flinch away.

With versatility? Conscious thought is needed. Hmm, I can do option A, or option B, or C, D, E,F,G etc etc. Option A doesn't work, because he's resisted me before; maybe B; no, C etc etc.

I may know 10,000 different martial art style. But I may use a simple punch more often than not, rather than the somersaulting tornado kicking headbutt as practiced by the praying mantis monks of Rhodesia. THAT'S what Surfer and Thor do. Sure, they have versatility. But more often than not, either because they prefer to go up close and melee (Thor) or because they are.....more comfortable, I guess? (Surfer?) With blasting, that's what they use IN CHARACTER.

With Flash and other speedsters? I mean, we all agree they DON'T want to get hit, right? So they'll use their speed to not get hit. In character. Because its instinctual. Like you flinching when someone goes to slap you.

What does this have to do with a person NOT using their versatility though. I understand people flinching off instinct but if a person is versatile and they know that they are versatile, why would they resort to blasting? Let's say you're Surfer and you are familiar with all of your abilities and Kalibak is in front of you and you know his intentions are to kill, battle starts, what are you going to do?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah, the point is that that level of power would be much less effective without the means to quickly carry it to its destination.

To put it another way:

Hulk is like a nuke being carried to its destination by a wagon being pulled by a bicycle.

Superman is like a nuke being carried to its destination by the fastest jets our current technology can allow.


Sure, but the fastest shot bullet in the world is still just a bullet and wont be a nuke level threat on its own.

If a Nuke goes missing, the world would be in panic, and thats solely because of its destructive potential.

Originally posted by carver9
What does this have to do with a person NOT using their versatility though. I understand people flinching off instinct but if a person is versatile and they know that they are versatile, why would they resort to blasting? Let's say you're Surfer and you are familiar with all of your abilities and Kalibak is in front of you and you know his intentions are to kill, battle starts, what are you going to do? Surfer would use his rudimentary abilities(ie. strength, speed, and generic cosmic blasts) first, and then perhaps use the deeper aspect of his versatility as the fight progressed.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure, but the fastest shot bullet in the world is still just a bullet and wont be a nuke level threat on its own.

If a Nuke goes missing, the world would be in panic, and thats solely because of its destructive potential. Sure, and that's why I don't think anyone gives Quicksilver the win over Hulk. Despite Quicksilver's far superior speed, he can't actually do any real harm to Hulk in a fight because the gap in raw power is too high and he has no esoteric mean of taking Hulk out (anyone more familiar with X-Men go ahead and correct me on this if I'm wrong).

But against someone who does have either the raw hard-hitting power to wound Hulk or has some hax ability that can phuck with him, the speed difference becomes incredibly important. Much more important than a strength difference would be, because strength alone does nothing to prevent you from being tagged by an ability that ignores conventional defense or helps you actually apply that strength and hit your opponent.

Originally posted by Galan007
Surfer would use his rudimentary abilities(ie. strength, speed, and generic cosmic blasts) first, and then perhaps use the deeper aspect of his versatility as the fight progressed. It's also important to note that his versatility has to be reflected in the fights he's had on-panel.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's also important to note that his versatility has to be reflected in the fights he's had on-panel.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?
As far as I know, actually opening a black hole inside someone has only been referenced as an option in a non canon story(though he did use something resembling an energy time bomb to open a black hole inside of Airwalker that engulfed the enemies that were pursuing them.

But he has had his board speed blitz them while he did other things, trapped them in cocoons of hardened energy, trapped their weapons inside of force fields, transmuted their weapons, transmuted them directly, teleported them off the battlefield with a wave of his hand, seemingly turned them 2D to trap them inside his board, absorbed their internal energy, thrown their internal energy out of phase, BFRd them through time, traveled to the past to prevent their birth, attacked them on the astral plane because he's even more powerful there, strait up shut off their powers, used blast of light against his opponent because that's what his opponent was most vulnerable to, and whatever else I'm forgetting. Relative to his number of full on fights, he uses his versatility fairly often. As for him waiting until late into the fight, it could be argued that he waits for the same reason that Flash waits to start using his speed effectively... PIS. I mean we know that he doesn't actually like violence so it makes more sense for him to use it early in a forum fight where he's not allowed to just leave the battlefield and he knows there's no chance of talking his opponent down.

Edit

Originally posted by carver9
Why?
Advice carv, make sure he's willing to continue the discussion. Galan's cool and pretty reasonable, but you don't want anyone to think that you're arguing with a mod over an official forum policy.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's also important to note that his versatility has to be reflected in the fights he's had on-panel.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?

Surfer has used VERSATILITY in combat. This is the argument. Superman (Flash have though) doesnt blitz around at untouchable speeds during combat. I can only think of 1 instance where he fought someone and did a DBZ like fighting style. This is what I mean. People apply things towards one character while not reflecting the same things towards all characters. Surfer has used his versatility in combat more times than Superman have fought at light speed or became untouchable.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Advice carv, make sure he's willing to continue the discussion. Galan's cool and pretty reasonable, but you don't want anyone to think that you're arguing with a mod over an official forum policy.

Gotcha. Edited.

Edited

.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer has used VERSATILITY in combat.

Who said he hasn't?



Haven't you read Our Worlds at War like five times? He blitzed Mongul II, one of the projections on Warworld, at least two Imperiex Probes. And that's just from one story.

In more recent time him, Rogal Zaar, and Zod all explicitly fight at speeds that can't be perceived by most.

In Last Son of Krypton, he was able to blitz Zod and Ursa as a fast-moving blur.

But what does any of this matter? I'm sure you've seen all of these scans before so I won't bother posting them, and I'm sure you've worked out ways to try to invalidate the feat so that the inevitability of him beating Hulk to a bloody pulp before Hulk can throw a clumsy hook seems less inevitable for you.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Who said he hasn't?



Haven't you read Our Worlds at War like five times? He blitzed Mongul II, one of the projections on Warworld, at least two Imperiex Probes. And that's just from one story.

In more recent time him, Rogal Zaar, and Zod all explicitly fight at speeds that can't be perceived by most.

In Last Son of Krypton, he was able to blitz Zod and Ursa as a fast-moving blur.

But what does any of this matter? I'm sure you've seen all of these scans before so I won't bother posting them, and I'm sure you've worked out ways to try to invalidate the feat so that the inevitability of him beating Hulk to a bloody pulp before Hulk can throw a clumsy hook seems less inevitable for you.

So the fts you've named are proof that he can beat up Hulk before he could throw a clumsy hook? Aren't you the guy that is always asking how fast a character was going during something? Provide those calcs.

Can Loki move at those speeds? I have yet to see anything special that he has done presently. He didn't even defeat the Armadillo convincingly, and he's up against a guy that could finger flick Armadillo into space. This discussion has 5 full pages of gibberrish, because Loki is heavilly nerfed when outside of Asgard or Jottunheim. Every spell that he conjures comes with a cost, so as I mentioned earlier, Loki is not what he used to be back in the 90's.

Yeah but.....he's NOT being heavily nerfed by being outside Jotunheim/Asgard,...so your original assertion that he's diminished is also gibberish....

Wow who knew a Hulk v Loki thread would have so many highlights?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol yeah i know. i was trying to bring it back around to the match at hand. i know how once you and ds make eye contact you get lost in each other....

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
anal

Originally posted by Galan007
Surfer would use his rudimentary abilities(ie. strength, speed, and generic cosmic blasts) first, and then perhaps use the deeper aspect of his versatility as the fight progressed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
As far as I know, actually opening a black hole inside someone has only been referenced as an option in a non canon story(though he did use something resembling an energy time bomb to open a black hole inside of Airwalker that engulfed the enemies that were pursuing them.

But he has had his board speed blitz them while he did other things, trapped them in cocoons of hardened energy, trapped their weapons inside of force fields, transmuted their weapons, transmuted them directly, teleported them off the battlefield with a wave of his hand, seemingly turned them 2D to trap them inside his board, absorbed their internal energy, thrown their internal energy out of phase, BFRd them through time, traveled to the past to prevent their birth, attacked them on the astral plane because he's even more powerful there, strait up shut off their powers, used blast of light against his opponent because that's what his opponent was most vulnerable to, and whatever else I'm forgetting. Relative to his number of full on fights, he uses his versatility fairly often. As for him waiting until late into the fight, it could be argued that he waits for the same reason that Flash waits to start using his speed effectively... PIS. I mean we know that he doesn't actually like violence so it makes more sense for him to use it early in a forum fight where he's not allowed to just leave the battlefield and he knows there's no chance of talking his opponent down.

I'm curious how ppl would think a Hulk vs Strange match would go. In their earlier tifs, Strange would just trap him in the Bands of Cyttorak. But could Hulk smack Strange before Strange got a chance to in a Forum battle?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Sure, and that's why I don't think anyone gives Quicksilver the win over Hulk. Despite Quicksilver's far superior speed, he can't actually do any real harm to Hulk in a fight because the gap in raw power is too high and he has no esoteric mean of taking Hulk out (anyone more familiar with X-Men go ahead and correct me on this if I'm wrong).

But against someone who does have either the raw hard-hitting power to wound Hulk or has some hax ability that can phuck with him, the speed difference becomes incredibly important. Much more important than a strength difference would be, because strength alone does nothing to prevent you from being tagged by an ability that ignores conventional defense or helps you actually apply that strength and hit your opponent.


Yeah sure. The Quicksilver vs Hulk analogy makes sense.

I was just responding to the point that Speed is the all and end all.

But neither speed nor versatility mean much without sufficient power to have a significant enough impact on your opponent.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah sure. The Quicksilver vs Hulk analogy makes sense.

I was just responding to the point that Speed is the all and end all.

But neither speed nor versatility mean much without sufficient power to have a significant enough impact on your opponent.

Of course.

But it's moot when speedsters are able to hit with infinite mass, or Superman has his strength feats.

Really, it's just Marvel speedsters who are poorly served. Quicksilver needed iron piping against Mr X, for example.

In THIS thread, Loki isn't about fisticuffs. He doesn't care about matching power levels. He's all about the sneak sneak avoiding direct confrontation if he can help it.

So will use his versatility much sooner than Thor, who would prefer to use his sheer brute force.

It's about knowing your character, rather than just arguing powerset, which is wrong.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


But it's moot when speedsters are able to hit with infinite mass, or Superman has his strength feats.

Really, it's just Marvel speedsters who are poorly served. Quicksilver needed iron piping against Mr X, for example.




Well Superman has been banned from debates for now anyway due to being too OP.

Hulk has actually been portrayed as a speedster himself at times. Blitzing opponents. Well maybe Speedster is taking it a bit far, but he is an incredibly fast brute.

Yeah he's fast for his size, no doubt.

But not speedster levels. There's acres of leeway between him and a true speedster.

That's like comparing Luke Cage's superstrength to the Hulk's.

Loki deals with Mjolnir speeding towards him just fine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well Superman has been banned from debates for now anyway due to being too OP.

Hulk has actually been portrayed as a speedster himself at times. Blitzing opponents. Well maybe Speedster is taking it a bit far, but he is an incredibly fast brute.

He has been shown to possess super speed though. Not Superman/Gladiator level speed but he have it. Even with it, I wouldn't say he goes around blitzing at untouchable speeds.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Loki deals with Mjolnir speeding towards him just fine.

Hulk does as well though.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk does as well though.

By sidestepping it in such a casual manner like this?

https://m.imgur.com/a/cJEgD

Originally posted by carver9
He has been shown to possess super speed though. Not Superman/Gladiator level speed but he have it.


Yeah thats what I said.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By sidestepping it in such a casual manner like this?

https://m.imgur.com/a/cJEgD

Naah, he jumps over it and blitz Thor afterwards...

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g340/Fernando072295/hulkvsavengers01_zps487bcb53.jpg

FAR better.

....not sure how you can objectively say it's far better?

Especially when Loki has literally danced around Thor's attacks, and dodged America Chavez's attacks..

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, he jumps over it and blitz Thor afterwards...

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g340/Fernando072295/hulkvsavengers01_zps487bcb53.jpg

FAR better.


Damn ive not seen that one!



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
....not sure how you can objectively say it's far better?

Especially when Loki has literally danced around Thor's attacks, and dodged America Chavez's attacks..


Perhaps Hulk is faster and Loki more maneuverable..

That said Loki has gone toe to toe with classic Surfer, who would dance around Savage Hulk... But then that was only Savage Hulk.

But this is Immortal Hulk, who has no speed feats.

That's if you're limiting yourself to specific Hulk incarnations.

Didnt know more powerful versions of the Hulk gets slower. I think you all try to use his mental state as a downplay to the character.

If they can get less durable they sure as hell can get slower.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
If they can get less durable they sure as hell can get slower.

Well, I wouldn't say less durable. I haven't seen Hulk standing in one spot tanking hits from Thor level beings without flinching or laughing while a trans tier (possibly skyfather) punch him. He isnt less durable, at all.

Didn't Betty just carve his chest open?

Yes, I know Abomination was secreting the acid. But it was affecting his HF, not his durability.

Unless Betty is above Thor and skyfather level beings?

Betty is Betty

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Didn't Betty just carve his chest open?

Yes, I know Abomination was secreting the acid. But it was affecting his HF, not his durability.

Unless Betty is above Thor and skyfather level beings?

I'm unsure how powerful current Betty is and I thought Hulk durability, strength, etc, is part of his anger? Think about why I'm asking that.

So you're saying there is the possibility that Betty is above Skyfather level?

Not asking you to say she is. But if you say you are unsure, you're saying that there is a good chance that she is indeed abstract level.

I'm the best wingman. You can thank me later Darkstar.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm unsure how powerful current Betty is and I thought Hulk durability, strength, etc, is part of his anger? Think about why I'm asking that.

Betty is Betty

So Dark Dimension busting power level obviously

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you're saying there is the possibility that Betty is above Skyfather level?

Not asking you to say she is. But if you say you are unsure, you're saying that there is a good chance that she is indeed abstract level.

What I'm saying is, Immortal Hulk was at his most vulnerable during that state and since his power is based primarily on his rage, she was able to achieve the results she did.

Originally posted by carver9
What I'm saying is, Immortal Hulk was at his most vulnerable during that state and since his power is based primarily on his rage, she was able to achieve the results she did.

Because he wasn't angry? But he was still in his Immortal Hulk persona, so surely as a more powerful Hulk than previous (for example, Savage) Hulks, he would still be above Savage etc?

He can't be simultaneously angry (and in Immortal Hulk phase) and not angry (so Betty can carve him apart).

How about when Bushwhacker shot him? Was that with Abstract level weaponry? He was packing enough heat to take down Eternity etc?

Before using the acid, Abomination was also knocking him about. Was he at Abstract level power?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because he wasn't angry? But he was still in his Immortal Hulk persona, so surely as a more powerful Hulk than previous (for example, Savage) Hulks, he would still be above Savage etc?

He can't be simultaneously angry (and in Immortal Hulk phase) and not angry (so Betty can carve him apart).

How about when Bushwhacker shot him? Was that with Abstract level weaponry? He was packing enough heat to take down Eternity etc?

Before using the acid, Abomination was also knocking him about. Was he at Abstract level power?

So you're saying a Hulk with no legs, arms, eyes, is still more powerful than Savage? Stop talking out your booty hole.

Lol... he was on the ground crying like a punk. No, he wasnt angry.

What did Bushwack shoot him with? Prove it when you answer it.

You guys can't even spell villains' names right.

BUSHWACKER.

Stilt put all the nerds in their place even here

Originally posted by carver9
So you're saying a Hulk with no legs, arms, eyes, is still more powerful than Savage? Stop talking out your booty hole.

Lol... he was on the ground crying like a punk. No, he wasnt angry.

What did Bushwack shoot him with? Prove it when you answer it.

Wasn't he still Immortal Hulk at that stage? Simple q. Yes or no.

You're the one saying Immortal is > previous Hulks. So if that is true, then .....yeah. I mean, an armless, legless eyeless Living Tribunal is still more powerful than Batman, right?

I note you didn't mention Abominations attacks; I was referring to this scene:
https://imgur.com/a/79Ke316

BEFORE he used acid.

I don't have to prove anything, lmao. You're saying Immortal Hulk tanks Thor level and Skyfather level attacks....I'm saying he was hurt by Bushwhacker's gun. If what you say is correct, then than means Bushwacker's gun is > Skyfather level. I.e. Abstract.

YOU'RE the one saying it, not me.

That Abomination carved his face. So Abomination is also abstract level?

Edit: and if you have the nerve to say 'I'm not sure' or words to that effect, you're saying there's a good chance that yes, Abstract level characters are running about and a Daredevil villain has an Abstract level weapon lol.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Stilt put all the nerds in their place even here

Thank you, thank you.

https://tinyurl.com/yxtzdqjg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't he still Immortal Hulk at that stage? Simple q. Yes or no.

You're the one saying Immortal is > previous Hulks. So if that is true, then .....yeah. I mean, an armless, legless eyeless Living Tribunal is still more powerful than Batman, right?

I note you didn't mention Abominations attacks; I was referring to this scene:
https://imgur.com/a/79Ke316

BEFORE he used acid.

I don't have to prove anything, lmao. You're saying Immortal Hulk tanks Thor level and Skyfather level attacks....I'm saying he was hurt by Bushwhacker's gun. If what you say is correct, then than means Bushwacker's gun is > Skyfather level. I.e. Abstract.

YOU'RE the one saying it, not me.

That Abomination carved his face. So Abomination is also abstract level?

Edit: and if you have the nerve to say 'I'm not sure' or words to that effect, you're saying there's a good chance that yes, Abstract level characters are running about and a Daredevil villain has an Abstract level weapon lol.

Yep and his power is dependent on his rage. He was vulnerable at that point.

Lol... of course Abomination claws can hurt Hulk, its Abomination. Doomsday claws hurt Superman. Zod blasted a hole through Superman with heat vision. Zod broke Superman jaw with a blitz. Despero clawed his face. It still doesnt take away from what Superman has endured.

He does withstand Thor level attacks and getting clawed by a physical beast doesnt change that.

Did Thor, Hercules or any of the people I've named clawed at Hulk? Is this the debate?

You mentioned Superman. I'll have to ban you.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
You mentioned Superman. I'll have to ban you.

My bad Mr. Mod.

Originally posted by carver9
Yep and his power is dependent on his rage. He was vulnerable at that point.

Lol... of course Abomination claws can hurt Hulk, its Abomination. Doomsday claws hurt Superman. Zod blasted a hole through Superman with heat vision. Zod broke Superman jaw with a blitz. Despero clawed his face. It still doesnt take away from what Superman has endured.

He does withstand Thor level attacks and getting clawed by a physical beast doesnt change that.

Did Thor, Hercules or any of the people I've named clawed at Hulk? Is this the debate?

Lol what does Superman have to do with this 😂😂

So you're saying that Abomination is above Skyfather level? I like how you changed it to just Thor level lmao.

You said his durability hasn't decreased. That he tanks attacks from Skyfather level beings. YOUR WORDS.

SO, if attacks DO affect him, then they MUST be >>Skyfathers, right?

Bushwacker has an Abstract level weapon, AS PER YOU.

Abomination is Abstract level, AS PER YOU.

Or......you don't need Abstract level attacks to hurt Hulk. Unless you want to power scale LMAO, in which case, oh boy do I have arguments ready for you!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol what does Superman have to do with this 😂😂

So you're saying that Abomination is above Skyfather level? I like how you changed it to just Thor level lmao.

You said his durability hasn't decreased. That he tanks attacks from Skyfather level beings. YOUR WORDS.

SO, if attacks DO affect him, then they MUST be >>Skyfathers, right?

Bushwacker has an Abstract level weapon, AS PER YOU.

Abomination is Abstract level, AS PER YOU.

Or......you don't need Abstract level attacks to hurt Hulk. Unless you want to power scale LMAO, in which case, oh boy do I have arguments ready for you!

First I want to ask, why do you keep saying Abstract? Are you ok?

Originally posted by carver9
First I want to ask, why do you keep saying Abstract? Are you ok?

Because they're above Skyfathers?

And you said:

Originally posted by carver9
Well, I wouldn't say less durable. I haven't seen Hulk standing in one spot tanking hits from Thor level beings without flinching or laughing while a trans tier (possibly skyfather) punch him. He isnt less durable, at all.

So if he laughs whilst a trans tier (possibly Skyfather) attacks him, SURELY (as per YOU), surely this means attacks which hurt him are >>>trans tier, so easily Abstract?

I capitalise the first letter so it jumps out at you. I know you can't read too good.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because they're above Skyfathers?

And you said:



So if he laughs whilst a trans tier (possibly Skyfather) attacks him, SURELY (as per YOU), surely this means attacks which hurt him are >>>trans tier, so easily Abstract?

I capitalise the first letter so it jumps out at you. I know you can't read too good.

Give Thor, Hercules, the Collector durable claws, they can hurt him AND Savage Hulk or any other incarnation of Hulk. There, do you feel better now? Back to what I said, he withstood attacks from High Heralds and trans tier PLUS character without pause.

Originally posted by carver9
Give Thor, Hercules, the Collector durable claws, they can hurt him AND Savage Hulk or any other incarnation of Hulk. There, do you feel better now? Back to what I said, he withstood attacks from High Heralds and trans tier PLUS character without pause.

And Bushwacker? Daredevil villain? He's got a Skyfather (poss Abstract lmao) weapon?

C'mon now.

He also fought the Punisher, who is beyond TOAA and Presence.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Bushwacker? Daredevil villain? He's got a Skyfather (poss Abstract lmao) weapon?

I dont know what he have. Can you give some details on his weapons capabilities? Who did it not damage? Show me how weak it is.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont know what he have. Can you give some details on his weapons capabilities? Who did it not damage? Show me how weak it is.

You haven't even read the issue?

He was prepped for his fight against IH.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont know what he have. Can you give some details on his weapons capabilities? Who did it not damage? Show me how weak it is. I guess if DS doesn't provide an example it would be safe to assume that it could hurt the living tribunal, right?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You haven't even read the issue?

He was prepped for his fight against IH.

'But Stilt.....I am unsure what capabilities it has! Therefore, I am sticking to my guns, and I am going to say there is a POSSIBILITY that it's an Abstract level weapon, because I am Carvrr9!!'

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You haven't even read the issue?

He was prepped for his fight against IH.

Please stop saying I didnt read the comic because i will post the entire thing here. Reread my question.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'But Stilt.....I am unsure what capabilities it has! Therefore, I am sticking to my guns, and I am going to say there is a POSSIBILITY that it's an Abstract level weapon, because I am Carvrr9!!'

Great answer. Glad we nipped that in the bud.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
I guess if DS doesn't provide an example that means it could hurt the living tribunal, right?

Why stop there? It could probably solo the entire Beyonder race at the same time. Only >>trans(poss Skyfather!) level attacks can possibly work against Immortal Hulk!

Originally posted by carver9
Great answer. Glad we nipped that in the bud.

Lmao. Didn't think you'd be that silly, but OK

Inconsistencies in comic books? Well... I never....

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Inconsistencies in comic books? Well... I never....


So which is the inconsistency?

An amped Hulk shrugging off Jane Thor and Herc, then later laughing at the Collector?

Or the Hulk that we've seen throughout Immortal Hulk?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Inconsistencies in comic books? Well... I never....

Bushwacker was packing special ammo.

Abstract ammo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So which is the inconsistency?

An amped Hulk shrugging off Jane Thor and Herc, then later laughing at the Collector?

Or the Hulk that we've seen throughout Immortal Hulk?

You do know in Immortal Hulk he fought the Avengers as well, right? You're trying waaaaayyyy too hard.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know in Immortal Hulk he fought the Avengers as well, right? You're trying waaaaayyyy too hard.

Does it detract from my point?

Good reminder, though. He wasn't laughing off Black Panther's attacks, was he?

Black Panther. Now >>trans level (poss Skyfather!).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Black Panther. Now >>trans level (poss Skyfather!).


Well BP did physically overpower Surfer pretty easily once

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does it detract from my point?

Good reminder, though. He wasn't laughing off Black Panther's attacks, was he?

Black Panther. Now >>trans level (poss Skyfather!).

You're trying to hard. I'm no longer continuing this topic. I already mentioned CANON showings. There's more but I'm satisfied with what I mentioned. Also, Black Panther have trans level tech.

I liked that scene where Hulk overloaded vibranium in a single hit.

I would call this thread a victory.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
I would call this thread a victory.

Me too

Originally posted by carver9
You're trying to hard. I'm no longer continuing this topic. I already mentioned CANON showings. There's more but I'm satisfied with what I mentioned. Also, Black Panther have trans level tech.

I liked that scene where Hulk overloaded vibranium in a single hit.

Wait. Your Carvermaths is wrong

If BP hurts Hulk, who laughs at trans tier attacks (poss Skyfather! Lol)......

BP is actually using Skyfather (poss Abstract!) Level attacks haha.

I'm also using canon showings

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait. Your Carvermaths is wrong

If BP hurts Hulk, who laughs at trans tier attacks (poss Skyfather! Lol)......

BP is actually using Skyfather (poss Abstract!) Level attacks haha.

I'm also using canon showings

Who was covered in Vibranium. Are you really trying to downplay Hulk by using Black Panther? Remember, your Batman examples? Remember who's Batman has dodged and made bleed.

I dont know what BP used against Hulk. Black Panther doesnt casually walk around with weapons that make his body glow. The Avengers were prepped before facing Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Black Panther doesnt casually walk around with weapons that make his body glow.

Wanna bet...?

What does Bushwacker have to do with Loki again? I thought my Strange comparison was way more apt.

It's simple.

Loki is able to affect Hulk:
https://m.imgur.com/a/N3uEX

'Ah!!!' I hear Carver cry. 'This is IMMORTAL HULK!! He is way more powerful than before, look, he laughs at trans (poss Skyfather!) level attacks!! If anything hurts him, that attack MUST be above that level!!!!'

But you see, I am bringing up Bushwacker and Black Panther, and Betty, and Abomination, to show that actually, in his short (20-odd issues, plus three or four guest appearances) run so far, things that would have affected Savage etc, would have also affected Immortal.

In short, let's not pretend that it ONLY takes Skyfather (poss Abstract!) level attacks to harm Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont know what he have. Can you give some details on his weapons capabilities? Who did it not damage? Show me how weak it is.

Cyanide Hollow Points.
https://i.postimg.cc/y6vwzws5/RCO010.jpg
I mean....yeah, they sound bad. But it's not as if they're abstract or trans level weaponry.

Edit

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cyanide Hollow Points.
https://i.postimg.cc/y6vwzws5/RCO010.jpg
I mean....yeah, they sound bad. But it's not as if they're abstract or trans level weaponry.

That wouldn't work on Savage Hulk?

Explain the reasoning behind your question

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's simple.

Loki is able to affect Hulk:
https://m.imgur.com/a/N3uEX

'Ah!!!' I hear Carver cry. 'This is IMMORTAL HULK!! He is way more powerful than before, look, he laughs at trans (poss Skyfather!) level attacks!! If anything hurts him, that attack MUST be above that level!!!!'

But you see, I am bringing up Bushwacker and Black Panther, and Betty, and Abomination, to show that actually, in his short (20-odd issues, plus three or four guest appearances) run so far, things that would have affected Savage etc, would have also affected Immortal.

In short, let's not pretend that it ONLY takes Skyfather (poss Abstract!) level attacks to harm Hulk.

Immortal Hulk isn't Savage Hulk.