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Bane (The Dark Knight Rises) vs Batroc (The Winter Soldier)

H2H combat

Who wins?

Originally posted by deft
Bane (The Dark Knight Rises) vs Batroc (The Winter Soldier)

H2H combat

Who wins?

Batroc without a doubt for me.

Batroc is the better fighter but he can't put Bane down, and Bane can fairly easily knock Batroc out. Bane is obviously not nearly Cap's level in brute force (or in any category really), but forcing knocking Cap off balance with a surprise assault before Cap gets serious and easily takes him down (nonlethally by choice, because someone who can punch Ultron through concrete pillars could kill a normal human) doesn't give Batroc the win here IMO.

Although I concede that Bartroc is physically stronger than Bane, don't forget that Bane was defeated by a much slower, physically weaker and older oponent.

Bane's mask is an issue, an issue Bartroc will soon realize to exploit.

Considering that Bartroc is agile and fast enough, unless Bane goes for a quick end, the long term would be Bartroc's.

I think Batroc the Leper wins, personally.

Let's see:

Who was visibly faster? Batroc.
Who fought a more dangerous opponent? Batroc?
Who's more skilled? Don't know, but Batroc moved way more impressively.
Who's stronger? Depends, is it harder to militart press Batman or knock Cap off his feet?

Anyway, Batroc wins.

Batroc knocking Steve off his feet isn't a pure strength showing though. He did it by blind-siding him and then pressuring him with a rapid series of kicks, not allowing him to regain his balance. Once Steve did though, the fight became completely one-sided.

Bane wouldn't be able to keep up with that level of agility or speed. And if Batroc is flipping around and delivering kicks like he gave to Cap, Bane's gonna be overwhelmed.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Batroc knocking Steve off his feet isn't a pure strength showing though. He did it by blind-siding him and then pressuring him with a rapid series of kicks, not allowing him to regain his balance. Once Steve did though, the fight became completely one-sided.

It wasn't just the first kick that knocked him down though. Cap was able to block the 2nd kick with his shield and it still knocked him down. Granted, he wasn't fully prepared and braced for the blow but when you consider Cap's stats + his shield abilities then that's still no mean feat for Batroc.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Batroc knocking Steve off his feet isn't a pure strength showing though. He did it by blind-siding him and then pressuring him with a rapid series of kicks, not allowing him to regain his balance. Once Steve did though, the fight became completely one-sided.

Well, consider that Bane isn't nearly to Cap's strength. Don't see him having better luck.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It wasn't just the first kick that knocked him down though. Cap was able to block the 2nd kick with his shield and it still knocked him down. Granted, he wasn't fully prepared and braced for the blow but when you consider Cap's stats + his shield abilities then that's still no mean feat for Batroc.

Never said it was just the first kick. But he kept attacking Steve over and over, knocking him again and again before he could regain his balance. It's extremely hard to bring your strength properly to bear if you don't have a moment to get stable footing underneath you. Steve managed to lift his shield, but his feet weren't particularly planted. Once that actually happened, he easily fended off all of Batroc's attacks, including his kicks, and beat his ass.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well, consider that Bane isn't nearly to Cap's strength. Don't see him having better luck.

I wasn't arguing either/or. Just pointing out that there is a huge difference between knocking a surprised opponent off their feet and outright lifting someone above your head.

To give an example, this is the kind of hit Steve can block with shield and a moment to properly brace:

https://media.tenor.com/images/076368ea033d40a4d5186eb2d9624c3f/tenor.gif

Unless people want to argue that a kick from Batroc is comparable to a robo-arm haymaker from Hydra-mode Bucky.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Never said it was just the first kick. But he kept attacking Steve over and over, knocking him again and again before he could regain his balance. It's extremely hard to bring your strength properly to bear if you don't have a moment to get stable footing underneath you. Steve managed to lift his shield, but his feet weren't particularly planted. Once that actually happened, he easily fended off all of Batroc's attacks, including his kicks, and beat his ass.

That's because Steve is actually superhuman and is obviously above Batroc's class. But it's not like Steve didn't completely have his feet under him. He was able to put his feet under him, just didn't have time to fully brace himself. Doesn't mean that he was completely off balance.

All I'm saying is, I don't see Bane knocking down Cap on his ass like that repeatedly, even if we allowed him to get a surprise attack in.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I wasn't arguing either/or. Just pointing out that there is a huge difference between knocking a surprised opponent off their feet and outright lifting someone above your head.

Originally posted by FrothByte
That's because Steve is actually superhuman and is obviously above Batroc's class. But it's not like Steve didn't completely have his feet under him. He was able to put his feet under him, just didn't have time to fully brace himself. Doesn't mean that he was completely off balance.

All I'm saying is, I don't see Bane knocking down Cap on his ass like that repeatedly, even if we allowed him to get a surprise attack in.

Except I posted an example of what Steve can do when he blocks properly. If he is strong enough to stop a blow from Winter Soldier's robo-arm, then he clearly couldn't have been able to put much strength behind the block if Batroc still knocked him back. Having your feet underneath you =/= actually being planted and braced. Your actual foot and leg positioning plays a huge role, and you know this.

And I could also claim that I don't see Batroc casually lifting and carrying a fully-armoured Batman (which is likely well over 200lbs in total) with one hand, by the neck, like Bane did.

https://www.popoptiq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/The-Dark-Knight-Rises-Fight.jpg

You could definitely make an argument for Batroc being faster, more skilled and more agile than Bane. But strength? I am not even remotely convinced.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except I posted an example of what Steve can do when he blocks properly. If he is strong enough to stop a blow from Winter Soldier's robo-arm, then he clearly couldn't have been able to put much strength behind the block if Batroc still knocked him back. Having your feet underneath you =/= actually being planted and braced. Your actual foot and leg positioning plays a huge role, and you know this.

And I could also claim that I don't see Batroc casually lifting and carrying a fully-armoured Batman (which is likely well over 200lbs in total) with one hand, by the neck, like Bane did.

https://www.popoptiq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/The-Dark-Knight-Rises-Fight.jpg

You could definitely make an argument for Batroc being faster, more skilled and more agile than Bane. But strength? I am not even remotely convinced.

Yeah, and if you look at that pic you posted, you can clearly see that WS's punch was at a downward angle and that Steve was braced under his shield... which is a way stronger position to brace in than the lateral hit that Batroc delivered.

I mean, what's the strongest hit that Cap has blocked with his shield parallel to the ground?

In any case, I never claimed Batroc was stronger than Bane. I just posted their strength feats to show that it was a toss up.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, and if you look at that pic you posted, you can clearly see that WS's punch was at a downward angle and that Steve was braced under his shield... which is a way stronger position to brace in than the lateral hit that Batroc delivered.

I mean, what's the strongest hit that Cap has blocked with his shield parallel to the ground?

In any case, I never claimed Batroc was stronger than Bane. I just posted their strength feats to show that it was a toss up.

Except Steve was standing relatively straight, on the hood and windshield of a car, not the ground, which detracts from that. But he actually had his one foot braced in front of the other, knees slightly bent, so that he could properly brace and push back, which made a difference. Then there is also stuff like this, which didn't even make him budge:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MatureFrequentAnnashummingbird-size_restricted.gif

And I disagree about it being a toss-up. One guy has a feat which can at least partially be attributed to surprise/his opponent being off balance. The other guy can outright lift and carry armored, fully-grown men by the neck with one hand.

Batroc is visibly faster, more skilled and agile.

IMO, he wins.

Batroc without difficulty

If Batroc is able to damage Bane's mask with a kick before Bane wrecks him, he wins. I'd give it 2/10 for Batroc.

Batroc is clearly faster, agile and more skilled. He went toe to toe with a super soldier while Bane beat up an old decrepit Batman with weak ass fighting skills..

Batroc takes this at least 8/10

I really dont see Bane landing a hit.

Bane suffers from the utterly horrendous fight choreography in DKR. It was laughably bad and slow.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Except Steve was standing relatively straight, on the hood and windshield of a car, not the ground, which detracts from that. But he actually had his one foot braced in front of the other, knees slightly bent, so that he could properly brace and push back, which made a difference. Then there is also stuff like this, which didn't even make him budge:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MatureFrequentAnnashummingbird-size_restricted.gif

And I disagree about it being a toss-up. One guy has a feat which can at least partially be attributed to surprise/his opponent being off balance. The other guy can outright lift and carry armored, fully-grown men by the neck with one hand.

Standing relatively straight with his shield angled at a diagonal. In other words, it wasn't parallel to the ground.

And let's be honest here, in that gif you just posted Thor was clearly delivering a downward blow against Cap's shield which was meant to be a glancing hit, not a direct hit against Cap.

As for Cap being surprised, sure he was, but let's not forget that he's also superhuman, who's reflexes and balance are good enough to still land on his feet after a surprise rush from Quicksilver. And like I said, you're ignoring the fact that Cap was already on his feet and was able to bring his shield to bear the 2nd time he was knocked on his ass. Was he fully prepared? No. But he certainly wasn't surprised anymore.

Besides, yes Cap was on the back foot when he got knocked down, but Batman was also not doing anything to stop Bane from lifting him up.

Again, I never said Batroc was stronger than Bane. But being able to push Cap around like that, even if he got the drop on him, is no small feat. BW also got the drop on WS and she barely managed to budge him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Standing relatively straight with his shield angled at a diagonal. In other words, it wasn't parallel to the ground.

And let's be honest here, in that gif you just posted Thor was clearly delivering a downward blow against Cap's shield which was meant to be a glancing hit, not a direct hit against Cap.

As for Cap being surprised, sure he was, but let's not forget that he's also superhuman, who's reflexes and balance are good enough to still land on his feet after a surprise rush from Quicksilver. And like I said, you're ignoring the fact that Cap was already on his feet and was able to bring his shield to bear the 2nd time he was knocked on his ass. Was he fully prepared? No. But he certainly wasn't surprised anymore.

Besides, yes Cap was on the back foot when he got knocked down, but Batman was also not doing anything to stop Bane from lifting him up.

Again, I never said Batroc was stronger than Bane. But being able to push Cap around like that, even if he got the drop on him, is no small feat. BW also got the drop on WS and she barely managed to budge him.

He was standing at a slopped angle against Bucky (one foot literally against a windshield), hence the angle of the punch. Not because he was bracing from below. The direction of the shockwave of Thor's hit and the damage it does to a small platoon of Hydra soldiers disagrees with your assessment, considering that action=opposite reaction, so even the glancing hit will reflect back to a degree on Steve. And I am ignoring what? You mean I didn't explicitly state how being on your feet doesn't mean you are planted. You mean I didn't point out that it greatly depends on how your legs and feet are positioned? Oh, wait, I did. So, please explain to me how I am ignoring that.

And Quicksilver delivering a single shoulderblock before buggering off is not the same as repeatedly hitting a guy. If Quicksilver had repeatedly rammed Cap and he landed on his feet every time, then you would have a point.

I find it interesting how you go on about how great a feat this is for Batroc, yet every example I post of Steve blocking hits you find an excuse to downplay or dismiss it. So, then why is it a good feat for Batroc? I am done doing your job for you. Post examples of Steve blocking hits parallel to the ground with his shield to prove it's an impressive feat for Batroc. Because doing what Bane did is pretty much impossible by real-world standards.

And Batman wasn't trying to resist? I guess he was just pulling at Bane's wrist at his throat for shits and giggles.

So, back your claim. Prove that what Batroc did is comparable to what Bane did.

Not sure who wins but I feel like yall are overhyping Batroc just a little bit. I never felt like Cap was in any danger of losing that fight.

IMO, it might take some time to wear him down, But as Batroc is faster and more skilled. it's his fight to lose.

I've got zero problems with people arguing that Batroc is faster, more skilled and more agile, or with people arguing that he can win this. If he hammers Bane's mask with a rapid series of kicks, there is a decent chance IMO that he could do some damage to it, at which point Bane might be in trouble. My only contention is strength, based on the points already raised.

Yeah, Bane is probably stronger.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Batroc is visibly faster, more skilled and agile.

IMO, he wins.

Being visibly faster isn't an automatic win. Bane has the necessary speed and skill to block attacks.

I'm not sure if Batroc can even hurt Bane significantly enough.

I'm not sure if Batroc is significantly more skilled, flashy kicks and flips doesn't prove better fighting skill to me.

Bane can seriously hurt Batroc with strikes and is much stronger if the two grappled.

Baleman even being over the hill overpowered Bane's strength/arm, and his blows were affecting Bane before the mask exploit.
Also it was Balemans left arm vs. Bane's right.

This is shown around the 2:05 mark.

fpw0ajm3_5k

Originally posted by h1a8
Being visibly faster isn't an automatic win. Bane has the necessary speed and skill to block attacks.

I'm not sure if Batroc can even hurt Bane significantly enough.

I'm not sure if Batroc is significantly more skilled, flashy kicks and flips doesn't prove better fighting skill to me.

Bane can seriously hurt Batroc with strikes and is much stronger if the two grappled.

Prove that Bane has the speed and skill needed to block attacks.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He was standing at a slopped angle against Bucky (one foot literally against a windshield), hence the angle of the punch. Not because he was bracing from below. The direction of the shockwave of Thor's hit and the damage it does to a small platoon of Hydra soldiers disagrees with your assessment, considering that action=opposite reaction, so even the glancing hit will reflect back to a degree on Steve. And I am ignoring what? You mean I didn't explicitly state how being on your feet doesn't mean you are planted. You mean I didn't point out that it greatly depends on how your legs and feet are positioned? Oh, wait, I did. So, please explain to me how I am ignoring that.

And Quicksilver delivering a single shoulderblock before buggering off is not the same as repeatedly hitting a guy. If Quicksilver had repeatedly rammed Cap and he landed on his feet every time, then you would have a point.

I find it interesting how you go on about how great a feat this is for Batroc, yet every example I post of Steve blocking hits you find an excuse to downplay or dismiss it. So, then why is it a good feat for Batroc? I am done doing your job for you. Post examples of Steve blocking hits parallel to the ground with his shield to prove it's an impressive feat for Batroc. Because doing what Bane did is pretty much impossible by real-world standards.

And Batman wasn't trying to resist? I guess he was just pulling at Bane's wrist at his throat for shits and giggles.

So, back your claim. Prove that what Batroc did is comparable to what Bane did.

Hey man, you're the one who questioned my stance, not me who questioned yours. So lay off the attitude.

I don't NEED to prove that what Batroc did was comparable to what Bane did because I never claimed that. I never said who was stronger but posted examples of their strength feats. You made the claim that it wasn't a strength feat that Batroc knocked Cap of his feat, so you prove it. Don't ask me to prove something I never claimed. You keep dissing Batroc's feats without considering the fact that 1. Cap is superhuman and 2. That his shield has energy absorption abilities.

But sure, I'll give you some things to think about.

the world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.

In comparison, can you name me a time when a regular human knocked a super soldier in their ass multiple times in the MCU?

I don't know how to post gifs, but there's also this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/Fv6ZBEh3GLg7VgV48

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hey man, you're the one who questioned my stance, not me who questioned yours. So lay off the attitude.

I don't NEED to prove that what Batroc did was comparable to what Bane did because I never claimed that. I never said who was stronger but posted examples of their strength feats. You made the claim that it wasn't a strength feat that Batroc knocked Cap of his feat, so you prove it. Don't ask me to prove something I never claimed. You keep dissing Batroc's feats without considering the fact that 1. Cap is superhuman and 2. That his shield has energy absorption abilities.

But sure, I'll give you some things to think about.

the world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.

In comparison, can you name me a time when a regular human knocked a super soldier in their ass multiple times in the MCU?

I don't know how to post gifs, but there's also this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/Fv6ZBEh3GLg7VgV48

I will lay off the attitude when you don't accuse me of ignoring things I clearly addressed or accuse me of saying things I didn't. And you said it was a toss up. Toss up generally means hard to pick between the two i.e. comparable.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I just posted their strength feats to show that it was a toss up.

And no, I said Batroc's feat was not a pure strength feat. That there were other factors involved. Which I have addressed in previous posts. I did not say that it is not a strength feat at all.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Batroc knocking Steve off his feet isn't a pure strength showing though.

That's been addressed before in Bane-related threads. Picking someone up by the neck is different than, say, holding someone centre mass, like some skaters/dancers do. It has to do with the actual grip available and weight distribution to perform the lift, which is why we don't actually see grown men being one-hand-hauled around by the neck in real-life, unlike the other examples. Nemebro has gone quite in-depth into this in multiple of these threads in the past, even referencing that other big-ass dumbbell with the thick grip and name that escapes me now.

Anyway, I sincerely doubt this discussion is going anywhere productive from this point on. Because I am not even remotely more convinced that Batroc is as strong as Bane is than when we started. And you don't seem like you have any intention of changing your view either. So, I'm out. I'm going to see if Hyperdrive on Netflix is actually worth watching. Because I have no interest in getting dragged into a potentially circular argument, like the ones where people basically just repeat themselves over and over using different wording, like the Faora vs Wonder Woman, Superman vs Captain Marvel etc. threads. And based on the distinct lack of progress despite multiple exchanges now, this looks to be heading that way.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I will lay off the attitude when you don't accuse me of ignoring things I clearly addressed or accuse me of saying things I didn't. And you said it was a toss up. Toss up generally means hard to pick between the two i.e. comparable.



And no, I said Batroc's feat was not a pure strength feat. That there were other factors involved. Which I have addressed in previous posts. I did not say that it is not a strength feat at all.



That's been addressed before in Bane-related threads. Picking someone up by the neck is different than, say, holding someone centre mass, like some skaters/dancers do. It has to do with the actual grip available and weight distribution to perform the lift, which is why we don't actually see grown men being one-hand-hauled around by the neck in real-life, unlike the other examples. Nemebro has gone quite in-depth into this in multiple of these threads in the past, even referencing that other big-ass dumbbell with the thick grip and name that escapes me now.

Anyway, I sincerely doubt this discussion is going anywhere productive from this point on. Because I am not even remotely more convinced that Batroc is as strong as Bane is than when we started. And you don't seem like you have any intention of changing your view either. So, I'm out. I'm going to see if Hyperdrive on Netflix is actually worth watching. Because I have no interest in getting dragged into a potentially circular argument, like the ones where people basically just repeat themselves over and over using different wording, like the Faora vs Wonder Woman, Superman vs Captain Marvel etc. threads. And based on the distinct lack of progress despite multiple exchanges now, this looks to be heading that way.

Those last few sentences... wow. Was that a backhanded insult?

Jeeze Vault, I did not expect that from you. I don't mind debating with you regarding different opinions, even if it might get heated. But I certainly didn't expect personal insults from you.

Anyway, I said you ignored stuff because you did ignore the fact that Cap's shield was at an angle when he blocked WS's blow and because you ignored that Thor's hit was obviously a glancing blow not meant to knock Cap off his feet.

And yes, I was part of those debates regarding Bane's strength. I did not say gymnasts could replicate the feat. I posted those examples to show that Bane's feat is not too much out of the realm of possibility, no more than the ability to knock a superhuman off his feat at least.

I also see that you ignored my last post regarding the drop kick against an unsuspecting Arnold.

And yes, it's a toss up. Can't say I see Batroc lifting Batman up by one hand but neither do I see Bane knocking Cap on his ass repeatedly.


In any case, I don't know what I did to piss you off so. It's not like we're not allowed to disagree with each other here. It is a debate forum after all.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Those last few sentences... wow. Was that a backhanded insult?

Jeeze Vault, I did not expect that from you. I don't mind debating with you regarding different opinions, even if it might get heated. But I certainly didn't expect personal insults from you.

Anyway, I said you ignored stuff because you did ignore the fact that Cap's shield was at an angle when he blocked WS's blow and because you ignored that Thor's hit was obviously a glancing blow not meant to knock Cap off his feet.

And yes, I was part of those debates regarding Bane's strength. I did not say gymnasts could replicate the feat. I posted those examples to show that Bane's feat is not too much out of the realm of possibility, no more than the ability to knock a superhuman off his feat at least.

I also see that you ignored my last post regarding the drop kick against an unsuspecting Arnold.

And yes, it's a toss up. Can't say I see Batroc lifting Batman up by one hand but neither do I see Bane knocking Cap on his ass repeatedly.


In any case, I don't know what I did to piss you off so. It's not like we're not allowed to disagree with each other here. It is a debate forum after all.

No, it was not a back-handed insult. It was a statement of fact. A lot of threads end up at a point where it is clearly not going anywhere, yet people persist for some reason. This is a general observation of the MvF board. I used to do it myself until I realised I was literally spending hours repeating myself to no effect where I could have been doing something else instead.

And no, I did not ignore those things. I directly addressed the angles of the hits and why they were like that. If Cap is standing at a slope, then his shield will be at a slope while holding it right in front of him. And I pointed out the directionality of the blow, as well as the physics that would reflect back on Steve.So, when you claim I say something isn't a strength feat when I said it isn't a "pure strength feat", when you claim I ignore things I addressed, you are outright strawmanning me. And then you wonder why I get annoyed. I can disagree with someone all day, but when they start misrepresenting my statements, then we have an issue. And me equating "toss up" to "comparable" (given the similarity in meaning and implication) is not the same as that.

And that Arnold gif is a bad example. One, the guy is a lot smaller than him. Two, he is not a trained fighter. Three, he did not launch repeated kicks, unlike Batroc. But the most important one is Four, if you actually look at the whole footage (which actually happened here, in SA, a few months ago), you will see that the kick actually did knock him forward into the camera:

hh6DmEUXh5g

And this is where I refer back to my first paragraph. I have basically typed out a small essay here, taking several minutes to do so, yet I doubt it's going to make any difference whatsoever to either of our views on the matter. Hence my previous long-winded way of essentially saying, let's agree to disagree.

Originally posted by FrothByte

the world record for a military press is 485 lbs. Divide that by two and it's not exactly impossible to lift a 200+ man with one arm, at least as far as action movie logic goes. A good number of dancers, gymnasts and even I've skaters are able to lift their partners with one hand. Granted their partners probably aren't as heavy as Batman and there's more cooperation there, but it still proves that it's not completely impossible.

It's not impossible to lift 200+ pounds with one arm, but to do it by the neck is. Neck lifting is impossible unless there is a significant difference in mass between the two people. I'd imagine Halfthor could probably neck lift Peter Dinklage for example. No one can neck lift someone approximately their own size.

It isn't just the weight you see, it's the fact that a man's neck is too thick.

Compare the Thomas Inch dumbell, which is 172 pounds, but is notoriously hard to lift due primarily to the thickness of its grip, which is about the same as a coke can apparently. As far as I know only Mark Henry has managed to get it over his head with a one handed clean and jerk.

QD9Ix_6DCL0

So to recap, it is considered extremely difficult to the point where only one extraordinarily strong man has been verified to do it to lift this dumbell. Batman in full gear is heavier than this dumbell, and his armoured neck is much thicker than its grip, but Bane held him in the air and easily walked with him with a single hand clenched on his throat.



Arnold was kicked into someone else, he wasn't kicked while isolated, not a good example.

But this entire debate is dumb. Why is that? Because hitting hard =/= being physically strong.

Mark Henry is likely over four times stronger than Mike Tyson was in his prime. Which of these men do you think punched harder? So even if Batroc kicks harder than Bane punches, it doesn't prove he wouldn't be strangled to death in a grapple.

And just or fun, let's have some more Bane strength feats, like this one where Bane snaps one of his men's necks by squeezing:

3a8jlMvBCGY

Now, one might be inclined to argue he didn't necessarily snap his neck, but let's see what the film's subtitles say:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/10/105634/3678020-screenshot%20neck%20snap.png

But yeah, if you want to compare feats, compare Batroc knocking Cap over with a barrage of kicks he wasn't prepared for to feats like, idk, punching holes in that pillar or breaking Batman's mask with a few punches.

I don't feel particularly strongly about this fight and understand why so many are willing to give a guy who made Captain America get a little serious the win, even if I feel that his sole claim to fame is effectively unquantifiable in any meaningful sense (he knocked Cap down, but Cap wasn't braced or ready, and it's not like he was any to do any damage to Cap). But the arguments trying to force some sort of parity in brute strength aren't really convincing and don't hold up to much scrutiny.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No, it was not a back-handed insult. It was a statement of fact. A lot of threads end up at a point where it is clearly not going anywhere, yet people persist for some reason. This is a general observation of the MvF board. I used to do it myself until I realised I was literally spending hours repeating myself to no effect where I could have been doing something else instead.

And no, I did not ignore those things. I directly addressed the angles of the hits and why they were like that. If Cap is standing at a slope, then his shield will be at a slope while holding it right in front of him. And I pointed out the directionality of the blow, as well as the physics that would reflect back on Steve.So, when you claim I say something isn't a strength feat when I said it isn't a "pure strength feat", when you claim I ignore things I addressed, you are outright strawmanning me. And then you wonder why I get annoyed. I can disagree with someone all day, but when they start misrepresenting my statements, then we have an issue. And me equating "toss up" to "comparable" (given the similarity in meaning and implication) is not the same as that.

And that Arnold gif is a bad example. One, the guy is a lot smaller than him. Two, he is not a trained fighter. Three, he did not launch repeated kicks, unlike Batroc. But the most important one is Four, if you actually look at the whole footage (which actually happened here, in SA, a few months ago), you will see that the kick actually did knock him forward into the camera:

hh6DmEUXh5g

And this is where I refer back to my first paragraph. I have basically typed out a small essay here, taking several minutes to do so, yet I doubt it's going to make any difference whatsoever to either of our views on the matter. Hence my previous long-winded way of essentially saying, let's agree to disagree.

1. Arnold had his back turned when he was kicked. Cap was facing Batroc and had his shield up the 2nd time he was kicked.
2. The guy kicking Arnold was not a martial artist, but old Arnold is also nowhere near Captain America's stats.
3. Arnold was knocked into someone else but it's not like he fully collapsed onto someone. Also, see #1 regarding Cap facing Batroc with shield in place. Let's not keep ignoring that fact shall we?

When I say you "ignored" something, I'm not saying you didn't address it but rather that you ignored (or probably better to say downplayed) it's significance. Like how you're downplaying the fact that being able to brace yourself underneath a shield, even if at an angle, grants you way better leverage then bracing against a parallel hit. You made an argument, got frustrated when I pointed out inconsistencies in the proof you provided, then tried to shift burden of proof to me.

Now you accuse me of strawmanning when you're the one arguing with me about statements I never made.

Anyway, you're right about one thing: this isn't a debate worth having if you agree that Batroc wins anyway.

Just a few points I'd like to address though. "Toss up" does not mean "comparable". It means indecisive. It means we don't have enough info to judge a clear winner from. Nemebro made a good point: striking strength is not the same as lifting strength. Which one is more important in a fight like this? I'm not sure, which is why I said it's a toss up.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Prove that Bane has the speed and skill needed to block attacks.

You have to state that he does not and then I'll engage it.

Ok, I disagree with your claim.

There, now back up your claim.

How's it that this thread is still raging on?

Bane has a large strength advantage going by feats. The neck pickup feat is nuts, especially considering Bane did it casually as can be.

Batroc has speed and agility based on what we saw in Winter Soldier.

Really depends on if Batroc tags Bane's mask enough. If he exploits his mask weakness quickly and methodically while keeping his distance, Batroc takes the big boi down. I actually will say that Bane could win the fight though if things get close enough to start grappling.

So, props to Bane on a possible win and this thread for arguing both sides pretty well.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Ok, I disagree with your claim.

There, now back up your claim.

You disagree that Bane has the speed and skill to block attacks?
If so then that's trolling.
But ok.
Bane blocked and dodged several of Batman's attacks.

So? Baleman also fought visibly slower than Batroc.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So? Baleman also fought visibly slower than Batroc.

That's irrelevant to the discussion.

But to address your point, Batman varied in speed of his attacks. Some attacks were slow and others were pretty quick (quick snaps). Bane actually blocked, dodged, caught some pretty quick attacks from Batman. Bane did some very quick attacks to Batman, arguable QUICKER than anything Batroc has done.

Batroc definitely can lands some blows. Bane can definitely defend against some of Batroc's attacks. This is not really debatable.

If it's irrelevant to the discussion, why did you bring it up?

But to address your response. Batroc is visibily faster than Bane. he is also visibily more skilled. thus the vast majority of Batroc's attacks will land and the vast majority of Bane's attacks will either be dodged or blocked.

This is Batroc's fight to lose.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If it's irrelevant to the discussion, why did you bring it up?

But to address your response. Batroc is visibily faster than Bane. he is also visibily more skilled. thus the vast majority of Batroc's attacks will land and the vast majority of Bane's attacks will either be dodged or blocked.

This is Batroc's fight to lose.

Baleman being visibly slower than Batroc has nothing to do with Bane's ability to block attacks. That's why it was irrelevant.

Bane is stronger and more durable than Batroc. Batroc will probably do little with his strikes. One good blow from Bane can end Batroc.

Baleman's speed had no bearing on Bane's ability to block his attacks?

This is the part where everyone just laughs at you.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Baleman's speed had no bearing on Bane's ability to block his attacks?

This is the part where everyone just laughs at you.

The argument was whether Bane has the speed and skill to block attacks.
You are creating a strawman at this point.

I already related that Bane blocked, caught, etc some very fast attacks from Batman.

But none of this has nothing to do with what I said in the end about durability and strength and one good hit can end Batroc.

No, the argument was whether or not Bane could block Batroc's attacks, not attacks in general. Therefore my point isn't a strawman.

Who is slower and less skilled than Batroc.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, the argument was whether or not Bane could block Batroc's attacks, not attacks in general. Therefore my point isn't a strawman.

Who is slower and less skilled than Batroc.

Prove it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bane has the necessary speed and skill to block attacks.



Originally posted by Silent Master
Prove that Bane has the speed and skill needed to block attacks.


Speed is irrelevant if two characters are close enough to each other in speed.
Batroc didn't show great defensive skill. He got tagged a lot. Just flashy kicks and flipping (which don't really work in real fighting).

Speed is never irrelevant.

He was tagged by Cap who is both faster and more skilled than Bane.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Speed is never irrelevant.

He was tagged by Cap who is both faster and more skilled than Bane.

Reading comprehension is Lacking for you.
I said it's irrelevant under a certain stipulation. You ignore the stipulation and again create a strawman.

Even under that certain stipulation speed is still relevant, so no. I'm not lacking in reading comprehension. I'm just not allowing you to lie.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Even under that certain stipulation speed is still relevant, so no. I'm not lacking in reading comprehension. I'm just not allowing you to lie.

I stated "Close enough".


For example, two fighters can be within 99% of each other in speed. The faster WILL NOT determine the victor. Therefore speed, in that case, is irrelevant.

"enough" means to where it is irrelevant.
If speed difference is relevant, then that contradicts "close enough".
So again, you are lacking in comprehension.

Bane is stronger and more durable than Batroc. Batroc will probably do little with his strikes. One good blow from Bane can end Batroc.

So Bane is so strong/tough that Batrocs hits dont matter.

But Batroc being so much faster than Bane doesnt mean Bane can't hit him?

Originally posted by h1a8
Batroc will probably do little with his strikes. One good blow from Bane can end Batroc.
Baleman was affecting Bane with his strikes just fine in the final fight before the mask exploit.
Bane's punches connected with baleman and baleman wasn't out for the count.
Bane's right arm was also overpowered by Baleman's left arm.
It's all in the video I posted.
And I do think Batroc can make short work of Baleman.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stated "Close enough".


For example, two fighters can be within 99% of each other in speed. The faster WILL NOT determine the victor. Therefore speed, in that case, is irrelevant.

"enough" means to where it is irrelevant.
If speed difference is relevant, then that contradicts "close enough".
So again, you are lacking in comprehension.

Bane is stronger and more durable than Batroc. Batroc will probably do little with his strikes. One good blow from Bane can end Batroc.

Speed is only "irrelevant" because the guy you want to win is the slower character.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Baleman was affecting Bane with his strikes just fine in the final fight before the mask exploit.
Bane's punches connected with baleman and baleman wasn't out for the count.
Bane's right arm was also overpowered by Baleman's left arm.
It's all in the video I posted.
And I do think Batroc can make short work of Baleman.

Watch the movie again. Batman wasn't doing anything to Bane in their first fight. Batman used the mask weakness in the 2nd fight.
Stop trying to pick the lowest showings for the character you want to lose.

Bane busted through solid stone. That's well beyond anything from Batroc and busted Batman through his mask (busted the mask too).

Batroc will get in a few ineffective hits before getting stunned from a blow from Bane. Then Bane will finish him off.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Speed is only "irrelevant" because the guy you want to win is the slower character.

Wrong! Bane defended against attacks that snapped out in about the same time (or less) as any of Batroc attacks. Remember Batman has done quick attacks as well as slow attacks against Bane.

Originally posted by h1a8
Watch the movie again. Batman wasn't doing anything to Bane in their first fight.
The first fight Batman was out of shape, unprepared, and his knees were pretty much done.

Originally posted by h1a8
Batman used the mask weakness in the 2nd fight.

Watch the second fight I posted were Batman was actually more prepared to fight Bane. Even though he was still over the hill and knees still bad. But he was at least in better shape and prepared.
Baleman was outfighting Bane and his strikes were affecting him just fine BEFORE the mask exploit. It was also shown Batman overpowering Bane as well.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bane busted through solid stone.
I dont think it was a totally "solid" stone pillar based on screen evidence. Anyhow this is irrelevant, because we see Batman outfighting Bane in the final battle, and also we see Bane's strikes not KO Batman when he landed hit on him.
You are making it seem like Bane is 1 punch man. Hes not based on his screen fight i posted.

Go watch the clip I posted.

Here it is cause I know you're lazy or will try to ignore it.

fpw0ajm3_5k

Like I said, Batroc is both faster and more skilled. This is his fight to lose

Originally posted by Inhuman
The first fight Batman was out of shape, unprepared, and his knees were pretty much done.



Watch the second fight I posted were Batman was actually more prepared to fight Bane. Even though he was still over the hill and knees still bad. But he was at least in better shape and prepared.
Baleman was outfighting Bane and his strikes were affecting him just fine BEFORE the mask exploit. It was also shown Batman overpowering Bane as well.


I dont think it was a totally "solid" stone pillar based on screen evidence. Anyhow this is irrelevant, because we see Batman outfighting Bane in the final battle, and also we see Bane's strikes not KO Batman when he landed hit on him.
You are making it seem like Bane is 1 punch man. Hes not based on his screen fight i posted.

Go watch the clip I posted.

Here it is cause I know you're lazy or will try to ignore it.

fpw0ajm3_5k

None of Batman's strikes affected Bane before the mask weakness. Making Bane's head bounce slightly back isn't the same as affecting him. There was no damage or stun effect. If you disagree then give me the timestamp to where Batman affected Bane before the mask weakness.

And stop measuring Batman to Batroc. Batman wears armor and thus has a much greater durability than Batroc. Bane not koing Batman isn't a low showing for Bane but a good showing for Batman and his armor. And Batman was easily taking out humans before he fought Bane.

We don't pick and choose a character's worst over their all their other showings. That's trolling.

Bane busted a stone pillar. That's enough to kill Batroc, if not seriously stun him. Bane is a grappler too. If he grabs Batroc then it is over.

Batroc flips and has fancy kicks (that will do almost nothing to Bane). Batroc showed no defensive ability (block, dodge kicks and punches and grabs) and no grappling skills.

Bane will kill Batroc after a few minutes tops.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Baleman was affecting Bane with his strikes just fine in the final fight before the mask exploit.

Baleman also has quantifiably better striking feats, as opposed to "uh, I guess he knocked Cap over when he wasn't prepared for it".



A guy with quantifiably better strength and durability feats than Batroc wearing body armour can withstand Bane's punches. And this means Batroc can?



Baleman is physically much stronger than Batroc, and there is literally no feat you can bring that would dispute that. Not even "B-but Captain America!" since all he did was strike him and get punched up.

Bane is stronger than Batroc full stop, regardless of anything Baleman accomplished in his fight with him. Bane can lift over two hundred pounds with barely any grip above his head with one arm and can snap necks by squeezing. Batroc has literally no actual strength feats, just striking feats. How did you think this line of reasoning would hold up? If Baleman has actually outright overpowered Bane, then Baleman is just stronger than Batroc (and he is, he's had better strength feats since Batman Begins).

Without going around in circles for 5 more pages, the mask exploit is a valid way to win. OP didn't exclude it, so Bane loses either way.

How on hell is this thread still running?

Bane has no way of defeating Batroc.

If well Bane is stronger and maybe more durable than Batroc. Batroc is way faster, agile and overall a better fighter.

What's worse, if we compare Batroc to TDNR Batman, then Batroc would outclass Baleman in every aspect.

If Bale was able defeat Bane, then Batroc will definitely do.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
How on hell is this thread still running?

Bane has no way of defeating Batroc.

If well Bane is stronger and maybe more durable than Batroc. Batroc is way faster, agile and overall a better fighter.

What's worse, if we compare Batroc to TDNR Batman, then Batroc would outclass Baleman in every aspect.

If Bale was able defeat Bane, then Batroc will definitely do.

Batric never showed good defense. Just flashy kicks and flips. One good hit or grab then it is over.

Hell I'm convinced that Bane can sit there for a whole minute allowing Batroc to hit him without much affect. Bane can take a hit to deliver a hit or to grab.

Originally posted by Inhuman
Without going around in circles for 5 more pages, the mask exploit is a valid way to win. OP didn't exclude it, so Bane loses either way.

Batroc doesn't know about the mask weakness. Also he may not have the striking power to even affect it. After all, Bane took plenty of hits in the front of his face without the mask being affected.

A good hit from Bane will quickly turn the tides. Also Bane can grab him and do some serious damage.

Originally posted by h1a8
Batric never showed good defense. Just flashy kicks and flips. One good hit or grab then it is over.

Hell I'm convinced that Bane can sit there for a whole minute allowing Batroc to hit him without much affect. Bane can take a hit to deliver a hit or to grab.



Batroc doesn't know about the mask weakness. Also he may not have the striking power to even affect it. After all, Bane took plenty of hits in the front of his face without the mask being affected.

A good hit from Bane will quickly turn the tides. Also Bane can grab him and do some serious damage.

Except Batroc, who is a normal human, was fighting Steve Rogers who is a supersoldier.

You couldn't possibly expect good results from Batroc.

Do you agree that Batroc is in better condition than Baleman?

Well, how was standing while getting punched in the face by Batman ended up for him?

Originally posted by h1a8
Hell I'm convinced that Bane can sit there for a whole minute allowing Batroc to hit him without much affect.

Proof that you're too biased to debate this topic.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Except Batroc, who is a normal human, was fighting Steve Rogers who is a supersoldier.

You couldn't possibly expect good results from Batroc.

Do you agree that Batroc is in better condition than Baleman?

Well, how was standing while getting punched in the face by Batman ended up for him?

Baleman is stronger and more durable than Batroc. Bane taking hits without effect means that Batroc won't affect Bane either. Bane has bone crushing blows and has the ability to grab. We all know that fancy kicks and flips go out the window when someone grabs you.

Originally posted by h1a8
Baleman is stronger and more durable than Batroc. Bane taking hits without effect means that Batroc won't affect Bane either. Bane has bone crushing blows and has the ability to grab. We all know that fancy kicks and flips go out the window when someone grabs you.

Based on what? Baleman in TDKR was weak and old.

Based on what is he stronger than Batrock who is in peak condition and managing to fo against Cap?

You are forgetting speed and agility. Bane won't be able to tag Batroc.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Based on what? Baleman in TDKR was weak and old.

Based on what is he stronger than Batrock who is in peak condition and managing to fo against Cap?

You are forgetting speed and agility. Bane won't be able to tag Batroc.

There was no indication by the writer's that Batman was significantly weaker (in strength) than earlier Batman. Batroc has no strength feats above Batman.

Bane has made attacks that were visually as fast as Cap's attacks that landed. Batroc showed no defensive skill whatsoever, especially against being grabbed.