Barbatos vs Chaos King

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deft
Who wins?

xJLxKing
Chaos King

MrMind
CK

Diesldude
Barbatos.

vansonbee
CK > Forger > Barbatos

MrMind
^Everyday I come here I see shitpost like this

Stoic
Originally posted by MrMind
^Everyday I come here I see shitpost like this

We agree WF is greater than either.

Astner
Batbatos was a threat to the multiverse, Chaos King was a threat to the universe. Do the math.

abhilegend
Originally posted by vansonbee
CK > Forger > Barbatos
Lolwut?

TheHulkster
Originally posted by Astner
Batbatos was a threat to the multiverse, Chaos King was a threat to the universe. Do the math.

https://m.imgur.com/a/852gr

MrMind
oh boy here we go again

Astner
To recap. The Chaos King never destroyed any universes. All he ever destroyed was afterlives and various pocket dimensions.

The first domain he destroyed was that of the Pantheon of Zenn-La.

https://i.imgur.com/HfTdZNMm.jpg

Then he destroyed Impossible Man's domain.

https://i.imgur.com/V20LfM7m.jpg

Then he destroyed the underworld.

https://i.imgur.com/Zvchf8Wm.jpg

Then he destroyed the Dream Dimension.

https://i.imgur.com/mHNMW4Mm.jpg

Then he destroyed the realms of the Earthly Pantheons.

https://i.imgur.com/UlbmOR6m.jpg

These are all the domains we see him attack in the original run and the spin-offs. There are no attacks on alternate Earths or timelines, the attacks are all confined to realms associated with the 616 Universe.

The main argument for the attack being multiversal is this quote by Amadeus Cho.

https://i.imgur.com/OUIGQKim.jpg

The issue is that this describes the multiverse as finite, since percentages are fractions, which only applies to finite numbers.

It's clear from the context that Amadeus is talking about is the universe and the various realms associated with it.

In fact, when Hercules attained all-father status he was able to defeat the Chaos King.

https://i.imgur.com/5w6VUuNm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tc1b8WTm.jpg

Athena even compares him to Zeus, after he defeated the Chaos King.

https://i.imgur.com/k1K8Tpom.jpg

At the end of the series Hercules refers to Amadeus' "multiverse" as the universe.

https://i.imgur.com/ZFQaiflm.jpg

The fact that Amadeus or Hercules refers to the 616 Universe as a multiverse means jack-shit, because they're not talking about the Marvel Multiverse, and this is made clear in the story. Of course, I'm fully aware of the fact that this won't stop fanboys from ripping panels out of context, ignore the story, and present their own headcanon of how Skyfathers are multiversal threats, and tell me that I'm just a hater.

Stoic
Great post Astner. It says the greatest threat that this Multiverse has ever seen. But it still never clearly tells the reader what level of power he was at. The only statement that could be quoted concerning his power levels came when he was directly compared to Eternity.

Astner
He wasn't compared to Eternity in power. Eternity made it clear that he simply couldn't fight him for pseudo-philosophical reasons.

https://i.imgur.com/ZhRW6lZm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/xhUcOu1m.jpg

Eternity would clearly win, since the Chaos King was a skyfather-level threat.

And if this wasn't made clear enough, it's even explained in Scarlet Witch #13 that the Chaos King was nowhere near Eternity in terms of power.

https://i.imgur.com/HVOwWv1l.jpg

Stoic
Okay, well then that seals the deal. Barbatos is way above CK, except for one last thing. Is CK Oblivion?

Galan007
Good stuff, Astner. thumb up


Also worth noting that they ultimately beat Chaos King by allowing him to think he'd "won"... And they accomplished this by placing CK in his own universe(singular) without his knowledge, of which he absorbed/overtook:
http://i.imgur.com/RP4D70fm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/2dxnfdVm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3PXDq6Tm.jpg


Point being: an entity that was truly multiversal would surely know the difference between overtaking one universe vs. overtaking infinite universes.

Astner
Originally posted by Stoic
Okay, well then that seals the deal. Barbatos is way above CK, except for one last thing. Is CK Oblivion?
No, he's an agent of Oblivion. Similar to Maelstrom. The difference is that Maelstrom would've become powerful enough to subjugate Oblivion.

https://i.imgur.com/lRmnw7y.jpg

In fact, in an alternate universe where Maelstrom won he fought Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet for supremacy.

Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/6UOYrAz.png

https://i.imgur.com/oRyeCPim.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/UojuszGm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/ghrtkE7m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/09WJ5pcm.jpg

So how powerful is Oblivion? About as powerful as Eternity, Infinity, or Death.

https://i.imgur.com/bIYX807m.jpg

Astner
Originally posted by Galan007
Point being: an entity that was truly multiversal would surely know the difference between overtaking one universe vs. overtaking infinite universes.
Technically you can call it a multiverse, because it's not just a regular universe, it's also a bunch of pocket dimensions. But this is like calling the Dragon Ball Universe a multiverse because it has an afterlife. It makes sense, but it's not how the term is used here.

When we refer to the Marvel Multiverse, we're referring to the infinite portfolio of Alternate Earths. We see this in Time Runs Out with White Panther.

https://i.imgur.com/g6ABg0o.jpg

It's clear that this is a character from a different Earth than the 616. So this is clearly a different category of multiverse than the one referred to in Chaos War.

The problem is that a lot of people are too lazy to read the stories and instead latch on to semantics used rather than feats.

MrMind
CK still win this fight after all he was still defeated only via bfr
He was powerful enough to drive Death out of underworld, beating Impossible Man. I get that making skyfathers and Galactus his ***** is not all that, but those 2 feats I mentioned make him beyond universal level.

Chaos War was just inconsistent, Cho has used the term multiverse multiple times saying they saved the multiverse and Chaos King destroyed 98 something percent of the multiverse

and Herc said he repaired the "universe" after they won, maybe the arthor was using multiverse and universe interchangeably (sort of like the case with Lucifer)

So really either arguments can be made, also if we view 616 as a multiverse (as in putting all the realms and pocket dimensions as seperate realities) then yeah maybe Chaos King did only destroy 616

Barbatos on the other hand got his body blow through by hawkgirl with nth metal and eventually chained up. Barbatos is wildly inconsistence. By his status, his power should dwarf the 52 universes by infinity, Dark Multiverse is infinite. But he did not rack up any feats before his low fashion defeat

Astner

Astner
This is almost as bad as when Mr Master tried to argue that Thanos with the Heart of the Universe was "omniversal" because he called himself one with omni-reality, despite he fact that it was made abundantly clear throughout the story that it was just the universe.

Don't get me wrong, Mr Master is definitely one of the best posters here because he's one of the few that has read comics for God knows how long, and backs up his arguments with scans. But like anyone he can be a complete doughnut.

My point is that arguments based on semantics have no place on a battle board.

DeadpoolXXX
mr master posted scans that were often extremely misleading, and strategically cropped in such a way that any information that might contradict the "point" he was trying to make was removed.

the guy hasnt read a comic in YEARS. why do you think he constantly pastes the same damn MS word posts that he's been using for over a decade?

he can occasionally make a decent argument, but it's rare. more often then not his bs is called out for what it is......thats why he had to make like 6 different sock accounts to agree with him in these threads lmao.

Stoic
Thank for the rundown guys. I had no idea how some of those things fit into place. So Astner or Mr. M, can you give the rundown on Barbatos? I saw CK do battle, where does Barbatos rank in fights? Or, do we just assume implied power based on narration?

Wonder Man
Chaos King has been described as like Blackheart.
Mephisto could take him.

TheHulkster
CK is shown well above Galactus and empowers Zeus to the point where he can hurt Galactus. Galactus is shocked that a "mere skyfather" can hurt him? So how can CK be only skyfather level when shown well.above Galactus?

Hasn't the argument of there cannot be a fraction of infinity been ridiculed here when posited by someone arguing for a Marvel character? If you can't have 98.7% of a Multiverse, then you can't have 100% of one. Thus a multiverse can't be destroyed. Of course in comics, you can have a fraction of a multiverse.

Multiverses are often called universes, but universes are not called multiverses.

The term used for Hercules is "All-Father". "All-Father" is a title, not a power level. Current Thor is the All-Father and he is just regular Thor powerwise.

Mikaboshi is skyfather level. After gaining enough power to become Chaos King, he becomes enormously above that.

zopzop
Wasn't it confirmed by Oblivion in a later issue that Chaos King did indeed almost destroy the entire multiverse?
https://i.postimg.cc/xNyC7LwP/0Dqxx2V.png

Juntai
Whats the rest of that sentence?

zopzop
Originally posted by Juntai
Whats the rest of that sentence?
https://i.postimg.cc/WdT6Ynkh/sy4iPKC.jpg
That's the full page. CK managed to almost destroy the whole multiverse but ultimately failed. Scrier and Other fighting all out would finish the job.

Juntai
Thats not what that says though.
It says Chaos War was just a prelude to the coming destruction of the multiverse. Or is there more to it I'm missing?

abhilegend
Originally posted by TheHulkster
CK is shown well above Galactus and empowers Zeus to the point where he can hurt Galactus. Galactus is shocked that a "mere skyfather" can hurt him? So how can CK be only skyfather level when shown well.above Galactus?

Hasn't the argument of there cannot be a fraction of infinity been ridiculed here when posited by someone arguing for a Marvel character? If you can't have 98.7% of a Multiverse, then you can't have 100% of one. Thus a multiverse can't be destroyed. Of course in comics, you can have a fraction of a multiverse.

Multiverses are often called universes, but universes are not called multiverses.

The term used for Hercules is "All-Father". "All-Father" is a title, not a power level. Current Thor is the All-Father and he is just regular Thor powerwise.

Mikaboshi is skyfather level. After gaining enough power to become Chaos King, he becomes enormously above that.
Well Ares survived the same blast and he is no skyfather. Also Hercules before he became All Father oneshotted the same Zeus.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Zeus owns Galactus and gets owned by skyfather Hercules.


https://s18.postimg.cc/v1vc8te91/3_07.jpg https://s18.postimg.cc/fge0ova0l/3_08.jpg https://s18.postimg.cc/mwdaaod5h/3_09.jpg https://s18.postimg.cc/qu0jzhzsl/3_10.jpg https://s18.postimg.cc/lilnest5h/3_11.jpg

TheHulkster
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well Ares survived the same blast and he is no skyfather. Also Hercules before he became All Father oneshotted the same Zeus.

What does this have to do with whether CK is only skyfather level? You last scan shows Zeus saying that every skyfather on Earth is needed to beat CK. How does a skyfather level being need every skyfather to beat him?

abhilegend
Originally posted by TheHulkster
What does this have to do with whether CK is only skyfather level? You last scan shows Zeus saying that every skyfather on Earth is needed to beat CK. How does a skyfather level being need every skyfather to beat him?
You're acting as if Galactus was portrayed beyond skyfather level and thus Chaos King is also skyfather level. Its not.

That was a ploy from Chaos King to get to Earth pantheons.

zopzop
Originally posted by abhilegend
Well Ares survived the same blast and he is no skyfather.
That's because by this point in the story, Death had fled the universe and the dead were walking around and the living couldn't die.

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
That's because by this point in the story, Death had fled the universe and the dead were walking around and the living couldn't die.
The dead were not more durable somehow. Hercules broke Zeus' body in the very same scans.

zopzop
Originally posted by abhilegend
The dead were not more durable somehow. Hercules broke Zeus' body in the very same scans.
Zeus' body was just a shell for the CK. He faked 'dying' to pull on Hercules' heartstrings and get him to reveal the Council of Godheads :

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
Zeus' body was just a shell for the CK. He faked 'dying' to pull on Hercules' heartstrings and get him to reveal the Council of Godheads :
Hercules cracked his body which tanked Galactus' blast. That wasn't fake.

celeyhyga17
Hmm... Kinda like Astner's stuff about the "multiverse" with how the story progressed. Not buying the "skyfather level" stuff. CK was definitely > skyfathers at the very least towards the end of Chaod War.

Zop's scan on Oblivion heavily implies multiverse however("All Universes"wink...
hmm

Juntai

celeyhyga17
Yeah but it's heavily implied that CK "came so very close" to what Obliv wants to happen here.... Which is the "annihilation of all universes".

DarkSaint85
That there were more than one universe, Astner does not dispute.

It's that they weren't universe like universe 74849 and universe 3925, but instead places like Hell etc.....iow, all within the 616 u

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That there were more than one universe, Astner does not dispute.

It's that they weren't universe like universe 74849 and universe 3925, but instead places like Hell etc.....iow, all within the 616 u

That was understood

DarkSaint85
Yeah, so what's not computing?

The statement about ALL universes is referring to all universes withing 616

celeyhyga17
Whers ure definitive proof thats what Oblivion meant when he said, "All Universes"?

DarkSaint85
See Astners scans.

celeyhyga17
Smh..

That was already understood. Ure telling me something that I already acknowledged. I was hoping someone had more insight or something more to add. Maybe something missed.

DarkSaint85
Because it's really not as complicated as you're trying to make it out to be?

All universes =/= the Marvel Multiverse, so even when CK came close to destroying all universes, that doesn't mean anything - its literally the same as saying 98.7% of the multiverse.

The same argument that Astner applied to that 98.7% scan is EXACTLY the same argument that can be applied to the sentence 'came close to destroying all universes'.

What's so hard to comprehend?

TheHulkster
No one calls hell and places like those "universes".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marvel_Comics_dimensions

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dimensionsrealms-universes-roman-harambura

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it's really not as complicated as you're trying to make it out to be?

All universes =/= the Marvel Multiverse, so even when CK came close to destroying all universes, that doesn't mean anything - its literally the same as saying 98.7% of the multiverse.

The same argument that Astner applied to that 98.7% scan is EXACTLY the same argument that can be applied to the sentence 'came close to destroying all universes'.

What's so hard to comprehend?
Y r u regurgitating everything that was already acknowledged? His point was already understood.

Not sure why u keep repeating an already understood position, without actually adding anything new...

Ure ramming ure head to the same wall hoping for a different result.

DarkSaint85
I could say the same for you.....

You understand the point, good. Can you understand that it applies you your statement as well?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I could say the same for you.....

You understand the point, good. Can you understand that it applies you your statement as well?
It doesnt apply. I never took a stance. I was inviting more insight. Not the same idea over and over.

Again...

Where is the definitive proof that Oblivion did not actually mean "All Universes"? On panel, that is what's shown.

And in dealing with characters like Scrier and the Other, the idea that we're talking at a larger scale than Astner's take is not far fetched.
Scrier alone had spoken of earth dying and reborn thousand times. That alone suggests he's seen multiple earths. He's also spoken of time being meaningless to him and seeing multiple realities. He also errected a barrier at a nexus where millions of realities converge.
He seems to deal with a pretty large scale.
So...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
It doesnt apply. I never took a stance. I was inviting more insight. Not the same idea over and over.

Again...

Where is the definitive proof that Oblivion did not actually mean "All Universes"? On panel, that is what's shown.

And in dealing with characters like Scrier and the Other, the idea that we're talking at a larger scale than Astner's take is not far fetched.
Scrier alone had spoken of earth dying and reborn thousand times. That alone suggests he's seen multiple earths. He's also spoken of time being meaningless to him and seeing multiple realities. He also errected a barrier at a nexus where millions of realities converge.
He seems to deal with a pretty large scale.
So...

The definitive proof being that he was referring to CKs attack.

Which was said to be a universe, on panel. On panel, that is what's shown.

Moreover, on panel, we were NOT shown....well, any other Earths.

Really, i am not sure why you keep asking when it has already been answered?

Galan007
Also, how do you consolidate the fact that CK was tricked into thinking he'd fully accomplished his goal and "won" after the heroes preformed the switcheroo and placed him in a universe(singular) that he fully absorbed?

As I said earlier: a being who had allegedly absorbed ~99% of the multiverse would surely be able to tell the difference between INFINITE universeS and ONE universe, right? Point being: if CK were actually multiversal beforehand, he wouldn't have 'settled' for absorbing a just single universe... Nor would he have been duped into thinking he'd "won" after absorbing that universe.

If I have $100 in my wallet, I'm certainly going to know if $99 comes up missing. ermm

TheHulkster
The repeated use of "multiverse" has been pointed out. Why does "multiverse" mean "universe" while "universe" does not mean "multiverse"?

If anything, history has shown that characters call multiverses "universes" while I have never seen a single universe called a "multiverse". To say that "multiverse" is referencing a single universe and it's realms is erroneous.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The definitive proof being that he was referring to CKs attack.

Which was said to be a universe, on panel. On panel, that is what's shown.

Moreover, on panel, we were NOT shown....well, any other Earths.

Really, i am not sure why you keep asking when it has already been answered?
Sigh..

I get it. I get the idea that was initially presented. U dont have to repeat it over and over. I've read CW and that is a very plausible viewpoint, as I've mentioned repeatedly.

But now we have an updated account of those events. When I say updated, I mean a more recent description of those accounts. A description that heavily implies the scale at which that event took place was bigger than what may have been presented. What if there was a retcon being that a newer description heavily implies a larger scale? Or what if this was not even a retcon, but actually a clarifiaction of said events so that there would be no more conflicting views? Where is your definitive proof that Obliv didn't mean All Universes even though on-panel he clearly states "All Universes"?


@Galan
In comics, seemingly omnipotent beings or nigh omnipotent can be defeated by some wacky plot. Isnt it a common occurence for these type beings to be defeated in some underwhelming manner? They get built up all story long, but fall face flat because the writer wrote himself into a proverbial corner.
Plus CK/Mikaboshi was always portrayed as batshiet nutz.

TheHulkster
Pak himself stated that CK seeks to destroy "all of creation".

celeyhyga17
Mind showing a link?

TheHulkster

celeyhyga17
Thanks...


























Stilt.
shifty

Wonder Man
Chaos King got rid of the people he had to answer to if I remember his origins.

Astner
So there are a couple of things I want to clarify.

When I say "Skyfather" I'm referring to the strongest beings beneath the Abstracts. Odin, Zeus, Rune King Thor, All-Father Hercules, Surtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and the Celestials all fall under this definition.

Some posters prefer further division of these characters, and while some of them tend to be more powerful than others it's still ambiguous enough to where I'd consider them to be in the same weight-class.

I call Chaos King a Skyfather because:He never fought anyone stronger than a Skyfather.He was defeated by a Skyfather.These characters, like I said, have the potential to destroy the 616 and all the realms associated with it.

The Chaos King's conquest was, according to the event and tie-ins, limited to the 616. He never attacked an Alternate Earth, a past, or a future. Not only isn't it shown on panel, it's never even hinted at. So there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Chaos War was on the scale of Time Runs Out.

As for Oblivion referring to it as the multiverse, all creation, or all the universes; it doesn't matter, for the same reason it doesn't matter that Amadeus Cho uses the term multiverse in the series.

Because regardless of what you call it it was just the 616 and it's never going to become more than the 616 because of what it's called.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
No one calls hell and places like those "universes".
https://i.imgur.com/eTQrJaz.jpg

Wonder Man
The mutliverse is one branch in the larger marvel universe with 616 being our earths marvel.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Astner
So there are a couple of things I want to clarify.

When I say "Skyfather" I'm referring to the strongest beings beneath the Abstracts. Odin, Zeus, Rune King Thor, All-Father Hercules, Surtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and the Celestials all fall under this definition.

Some posters prefer further division of these characters, and while some of them tend to be more powerful than others it's still ambiguous enough to where I'd consider them to be in the same weight-class.

I call Chaos King a Skyfather because:He never fought anyone stronger than a Skyfather.He was defeated by a Skyfather.These characters, like I said, have the potential to destroy the 616 and all the realms associated with it.

The Chaos King's conquest was, according to the event and tie-ins, limited to the 616. He never attacked an Alternate Earth, a past, or a future. Not only isn't it shown on panel, it's never even hinted at. So there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Chaos War was on the scale of Time Runs Out.

As for Oblivion referring to it as the multiverse, all creation, or all the universes; it doesn't matter, for the same reason it doesn't matter that Amadeus Cho uses the term multiverse in the series.

Because regardless of what you call it it was just the 616 and it's never going to become more than the 616 because of what it's called.


https://i.imgur.com/eTQrJaz.jpg

This is just a repeat of your earlier point, I don't understand why you're just repeating yourself.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is just a repeat of your earlier point, I don't understand why you're just repeating yourself.

Illusory truth effect?

DarkSaint85
Sarcasm

TheHulkster

Astner
Originally posted by TheHulkster
https://m.imgur.com/a/OSa3R
This is, for the same reason as with Eternity, not indicative of power. Unless there's an actual battle, or an implication of a power-difference then it's not good enough as an argument.

The only time we see Death in the series is in a tie-in where Death flees the underworld or at the very least the scene, when Pluto denies Ares his place in Elysium. And Pluto and Ares are around the same level of power, which is certainly not Abstract-level.

https://i.imgur.com/ey0AN9km.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/w0Iikj6m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/jEJ61H1m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/V93lSLIm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/lmrw5fum.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/7xKVj7Lm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/XirF77jm.jpg

The main issue I have with your argument is that it relies on very specific interpretations of vaguely worded terms over what we actually see happening and what's explained to be happening in the story.

Not to mention that it's inconsistent with the cosmology as a whole. If the Chaos King was anywhere near as powerful as you suggest he is then he would not struggle as much as he did fighting regular gods, and he certainly wouldn't be defeated by All-Father Hercules.

Wonder Man
Amatsu-Mikaboshi reason was to kill Ares and cause war to be lost in all battles.
Hercules was merely standing up for his brother.

DarkSaint85
KM is just fappy because Snowbird nearly defeated Chaos King, which would make her multiversal + lol.

-K-M-

MrMind
Originally posted by Astner
No, he's an agent of Oblivion. Similar to Maelstrom. The difference is that Maelstrom would've become powerful enough to subjugate Oblivion.

https://i.imgur.com/lRmnw7y.jpg

In fact, in an alternate universe where Maelstrom won he fought Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet for supremacy.



So how powerful is Oblivion? About as powerful as Eternity, Infinity, or Death.

https://i.imgur.com/bIYX807m.jpg

during the Quasar run decades ago it was the M-Bodies of all the abstracts battling,

https://imgur.com/XvF44wG

just because Oblivion's universal avatar equals infinity, eternity, and death does not apply to his true form. marvel fundamental abstracts in their heighest level are multiversal level. Eternity, Infinity or Death all have multiversal form as they embody in all of the multiverse.

Oblivion is the void before creation, he will be there when creation ends,everything springs from Oblivion's loins-- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb
https://i.imgur.com/PRWsxCi.jpg

it couldn't be clearer that he was talking about the entire marvel creaion as a whole, as he's breaking the fourth wall speaking to the readers
https://imgur.com/EMnoEqb

this scan clearly indicate that CK come close to succeeding destroying all universes (he destroyed 99 percent), the fact that CK is an aspect of Oblivion automatically means he's multiversal, Oblivion himself is beyond multiversal (void before creation). Not to mention CK was implied to be the counterpart of multi-eternity

https://postimg.cc/WdT6Ynkh

Astner
Originally posted by MrMind
during the Quasar run decades ago it was the M-Bodies of all the abstracts battling,

https://imgur.com/XvF44wG

just because Oblivion's universal avatar equals infinity, eternity, and death does not apply to his true form. marvel fundamental abstracts in their heighest level are multiversal level. Eternity, Infinity or Death all have multiversal form as they embody in all of the multiverse.
M-bodies aren't lesser avatars, or conduits to a greater sea of power. In fact, the m-bodies aren't even created by the Abstracts, but by an alien race called Manifesters to serve as the mouthpiece of the Abstract beings.

https://i.imgur.com/Kj5bKGVm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/bJ73kYGm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/mh9aLSvm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/2fyRP5Vm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/xLfGIf9m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/OB7fXrSm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/qgzcZWZm.jpg

The reason for the introduction of the m-body was to explain how Eternity could come back after the destruction by Adam Warlock's hand. The Abstracts naturally use their full power to protect their mouthpiece, so when an m-body is destroyed it's shows that the Abstract is unable to thwart the threat.

Originally posted by MrMind
Oblivion is the void before creation, he will be there when creation ends,everything springs from Oblivion's loins-- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb
https://i.imgur.com/PRWsxCi.jpg

it couldn't be clearer that he was talking about the entire marvel creaion as a whole, as he's breaking the fourth wall speaking to the readers
https://imgur.com/EMnoEqb

this scan clearly indicate that CK come close to succeeding destroying all universes (he destroyed 99 percent), the fact that CK is an aspect of Oblivion automatically means he's multiversal, Oblivion himself is beyond multiversal (void before creation). Not to mention CK was implied to be the counterpart of multi-eternity

https://postimg.cc/WdT6Ynkh
Oblivion is referring to Chaos War, an event that nearly destroyed the 616. So "multiverse" or "all universes" in this context means the 616, because that's what was under threat during the Chaos War.

The only Abstract we know of that has a truly multiversal form is Eternity. Multi-Eternity was first introduced in the Abraxas arc, he was later introduced as Eternity in Ewing's stories. But Ewing made it clear that there are universal Eternities, and that they function as cells in the larger multiversal Eternity, according to Ewing in the QnA section of Ultimates 2 #5. And contrary to your theory these universal Eternities aren't m-bodies, they're actual Eternities.

https://i.imgur.com/MwHgjYI.png

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Astner
So there are a couple of things I want to clarify.

When I say "Skyfather" I'm referring to the strongest beings beneath the Abstracts. Odin, Zeus, Rune King Thor, All-Father Hercules, Surtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and the Celestials all fall under this definition.

Some posters prefer further division of these characters, and while some of them tend to be more powerful than others it's still ambiguous enough to where I'd consider them to be in the same weight-class.

I call Chaos King a Skyfather because:He never fought anyone stronger than a Skyfather.He was defeated by a Skyfather.These characters, like I said, have the potential to destroy the 616 and all the realms associated with it.
I c wut ure saying here. thumb up
One thing thoug, he wasnt really defeated by a (skyfather) in the usual sense. They tricked him into a bfr. And he really was whoopin Supergod Herc's behind.

Originally posted by Astner

The Chaos King's conquest was, according to the event and tie-ins, limited to the 616. He never attacked an Alternate Earth, a past, or a future. Not only isn't it shown on panel, it's never even hinted at. So there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Chaos War was on the scale of Time Runs Out.

As for Oblivion referring to it as the multiverse, all creation, or all the universes; it doesn't matter, for the same reason it doesn't matter that Amadeus Cho uses the term multiverse in the series.

Because regardless of what you call it it was just the 616 and it's never going to become more than the 616 because of what it's called.


https://i.imgur.com/eTQrJaz.jpg
Thats the way it looks in the Chaos War story itself. Hence the confusion with Amd Cho's statement about multiverse.
https://imgur.com/a/goJdU

But going back to Zop's scan, it's highly implied that Oblivion was talking about "All Universes" as in the Marvel multiverse because of characters involved this time around.
Originally posted by zopzop
Wasn't it confirmed by Oblivion in a later issue that Chaos King did indeed almost destroy the entire multiverse?
https://i.postimg.cc/xNyC7LwP/0Dqxx2V.png


Im talking about Scrier and The Other. This is especially with Scrier because when he is involved, there are multiversal implications. The nexus of realities which he is so keen on always protecting or watching over, it involves parallel universes. Im talking about universes with other earths and not just dimensions that have connection with 616.

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