Count Dooku vs Mace Windu

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juggernaut74
Surprised this didn't show up on the search.

Anyways canon feats only for these two.

Fight takes place at Jabba's palace.

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Surprised this didn't show up on the search.

Anyways canon feats only for these two.

Fight takes place at Jabba's palace.

This has been done a billion times.

Windu wins.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Surprised this didn't show up on the search.

Because you can't use the search engine:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=634631&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=642029&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=654700&highlight=title%3A%28windu+dooku%29

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=657478&highlight=title%3A%28windu+dooku%29

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=658022&highlight=title%3A%28windu+dooku%29

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=658154&highlight=title%3A%28windu+dooku%29

relentless1
Even though Sidious faked his loss to Mace, Mace was still able to contend with him for some time which automatically puts him a level above Dooku so I give to Mace 9/10 times here

NewGuy01
The Count.

Darth Thor
Make it Dooku + Grievous vs Mace and it becomes a fair fight.

Total Warrior
Mace wins

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Make it Dooku + Grievous vs Mace and it becomes a fair fight. I didn't realize Mace was so far above Dooku. Other than Sidious faking his loss to Mace what other victories does Windu have?

I know he was holding his own against Mother Talzin.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I didn't realize Mace was so far above Dooku. Other than Sidious faking his loss to Mace what other victories does Windu have?

I know he was holding his own against Mother Talzin.


Mace overpowered Sidious in Sabers. Nothing fake about that.

Even IF it was planned by Sidious, Lucas outright confirmed Mace can compete against him.


So he seems to just be younger and stronger than Dooku.

That said Dooku is way cooler thumb up

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace overpowered Sidious in Sabers. Nothing fake about that.

Even IF it was planned by Sidious, Lucas outright confirmed Mace can compete against him.


So he seems to just be younger and stronger than Dooku.

That said Dooku is way cooler thumb up These are two of my favorites characters in Star Wars.

Though I just thought of something, Mace was holding his own against Talzin in a saber duel and in the Son of Dathomir Talzin took control of Dooku's body and attacked Sidious he then states that while she has control of Dooku's body she don't have his skill.

That seems to me he wasn't impressed with her skill and she was able to hold her own against Windu.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I didn't realize Mace was so far above Dooku. Other than Sidious faking his loss to Mace what other victories does Windu have?

I know he was holding his own against Mother Talzin.

Check out the polls.

It's always extremely close or 50:50.

Windu has that RotS showing against Sidious and it's often argued how his fighting style would overpower Dooku's defense, like Anakin did.

Scizard
Mace but quite a close fight.

Zamp
Funnily enough, I googled this yesterday (and found a bunch of old KMC threads).

There's some exposition in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous that asserts that of all the jedi (aside from Yoda) only Mace even has a chance against Dooku on even ground. And it's certainly not a guaranteed victory.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zamp
Funnily enough, I googled this yesterday (and found a bunch of old KMC threads).

There's some exposition in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous that asserts that of all the jedi (aside from Yoda) only Mace even has a chance against Dooku on even ground. And it's certainly not a guaranteed victory.


Theres that and a quote from the same novel saying Dooku was the strongest of the Jedi Temple students. The latter quote has been repeated in a Canon source book as well.

That all said, Mace is younger and physically stronger. Plus his Saber style is more lethal especially against dark siders.

StiltmanFTW
I'm against the popular opinion that Windu should take it. Samuel L. Jackson had to throw a tantrum on set and demanded Lucas to write him a badass fighting scene.

Not to mention that Tyranus also has a great feat under his belt - stalemating Yoda.

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by juggernaut74
I didn't realize Mace was so far above Dooku. Other than Sidious faking his loss to Mace what other victories does Windu have?

I know he was holding his own against Mother Talzin.

Sidious faking his loss to Mace has been debunked.

And the Revenge Of The Sith novelization, which is Canon to the film reaffirms Mace's usage of Vapaad, which is what caused Mace to overwhelm and defeat Sidious.

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mace overpowered Sidious in Sabers. Nothing fake about that.

Even IF it was planned by Sidious, Lucas outright confirmed Mace can compete against him.


So he seems to just be younger and stronger than Dooku.

That said Dooku is way cooler thumb up

thumb up

Mace defeated Sidious with Vapaad, and especially against a Dark Sider, Mace would be faster and stronger than Dooku.

Mace can also see and strike Shatterpoints, which is also partially how he defeated Sidious.

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Check out the polls.

It's always extremely close or 50:50.

Windu has that RotS showing against Sidious and it's often argued how his fighting style would overpower Dooku's defense, like Anakin did.

thumb up

And Mace would see Dooku's shatterpoint and strike it as well.

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm against the popular opinion that Windu should take it. Samuel L. Jackson had to throw a tantrum on set and demanded Lucas to write him a badass fighting scene.

Not to mention that Tyranus also has a great feat under his belt - stalemating Yoda.

Dooku stalemated a rusty-Yoda, which is less impressive.

Also, it was actually established all the way back in 2003 in the novel Shatterpoint- way before Revenge Of The Sith, that Windu had created the Lightsaber Form of Vapaad - and Labyrinth Of Evil revealed that Mace had created Vapaad specifically for the purpose of defeating Sidious.

So one way or another, Mace was going to defeat Sidious and it was completely justified. smile

CaveDude33211
Mace Windu defeats Dooku - with less difficulty than it took him to defeat Sidious.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by CaveDude33211
Mace Windu defeats Dooku - with less difficulty than it took him to defeat Sidious. Well Mace might one-shot Dooku because Mace had little problems with Sidious it seems.

ares834

CaveDude33211
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Well Mace might one-shot Dooku because Mace had little problems with Sidious it seems.

thumb up smile

I agree that Mace would realistically defeat Dooku with very little effort.

juggernaut74

Galan007
The RotS novelization provides a bunch of context.

Suffice to say, Mace definitely had issues with Palpatine.

Rebel95
Leaning towards Mace

Darth Thor
Yeah in the novel Palpatine and Sidious fought dead evenly, until Mace finally won via tactics and shatter point.

Even in the film its pretty clear they are going back and forth. And Gillard confirmed they were both level 9 duelists, even later retconning Mace down a tiny bit to a 8.5/9.

ares834
Originally posted by juggernaut74
He didn't appear to have any issues defeating Sidious. Nor did he ever seem like he was in danger.

Did you, like, not watch the movie?

NewGuy01
With regards to Mace vs Palpatine, there's probably no point in rehashing the same old arguments regarding whether or not Mace's disarming of Palpatine was legitimate; since the fight is never shown from Palpatine's perspective, there's no way to prove his intentions one way or the other. What we do have is Mace's perspective, and what can be said for sure is that, even taking the most generous possible interpretation for Mace, blade-to-blade he'd reached an impasse with Sidious:


Then, after sensing fear in his opponent, he made to take advantage of that moment of weakness and score the decisive blow:


That's the questionable bit, though, since Palpatine suggests just afterwards that it hadn't been his fear and hesistance that Mace had sensed at all--but rather Anakin's:


Even if we disregard the legitimacy that the narration lends to the claim, and assume that Palpatine was just bluffing, Mace still wouldn't have bested Sidious had the contest continued. Once again, impasse is the most favorable possible interpretation:


All of this is pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, though, since Mace's contest with Palpatine is the outlier. His sole feat that suggests parity with Yoda amongst the wealth of them that he has, performed under clearly extraordinary circumstances. For those who aren't aware, Mace's fighting style, Vaapad, is a technique that uses negative emotions, like the Sith do. When Mace fights, he flirts with the dark side, with his discipline--his diligence in holding himself back--being the only thing that prevents him from falling to evil like Vaapad's other practitioners did:



Like with the Sith, Mace's strength is rooted in the intensity of his passions and negative thoughts, which is crucial to note, because his inner darkness is explicitly at an unprecedented, all-time high going into his fight with Sidious:



This is directly referenced in the fight itself. Mace fights for his "secret love," casting away his Jedi restraint and allowing himself to be swallowed by the dark, in contrast with his previous disposition:



Given that Dooku is not the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, and that Mace is (presumably) not coming into the fight fresh after having his heart "shredded, burned to ashes, and fed to him," it's fair to assume that his performance here will be more in line with the rest of his performances, rather than the outlier that is his contest with Palpatine.

Three convenient examples of Mace's baseline performance are his fights with Sora Bulq, Assaj Ventress, and late-CW General Grievous, three opponents whom Dooku has also fought. In none of these fights does Mace outperform Dooku to any significant degree. His back and forth with Sora Bulq could easily be replicated by Dooku, who easily dispatched Sora while simultaneously fending off Tholme. His overpowering of Ventress (which in the Official Fact File is suggested to have been a demonstration of "all of his skills"wink could easily be replicated by Dooku, who repelled Ventress and two high-ranking Nightsisters at the same time while blinded and drugged.

NewGuy01
When he duels against late-CW Grievous, even though the General's mobility is severely limited by the environment, Mace is pressured, and he even almost has the tables turned on him when he moves to capitalize on an opening created by his environmental advantage:



Dooku's handling of Grievous from the same time period (both in and out of universe) is, once again, as good or better than Mace's. I could also post panels of both of them slapping around Quinlan Vos with impunity, but with this much, the point already ought to be made: in none of the cases where Mace fights opponents that Dooku had also fought, does Mace ever fare decidedly better than Dooku did. Nor does he, in his duels with Saesee Tiin, Depa Billaba, Mother Talzin, or even his 2v1 against Darth Maul or his brief duel with the Count himself, ever perform in line with what one would expect from Yoda or Palpatine.

And this is completely consistent with what we're told. In both Yoda: Dark Rendezvous and the Power of the Jedi sourcebook, Mace and Dooku are presented as peers:



This is consistent with Nick Gillards' categorization of the two as "level eight" combatants, as opposed to Anakin, Yoda, and Palpatine, who were categorized as "level nines":



In fairness, Mace was highlighted as being on the higher end of the "level eight" spectrum, and I would argue that, when he fully embraced his darkness against Sidious, he probably did cross that border into "level nine" territory. Extraordinary circumstances aside, though, he is an eight, his feats are consistent with other eights, and Count Dooku--being significantly stronger than Maul per several sources--is also a likely candidate to be high on the "level eight" spectrum. Ergo, the fight is likely to be decided by compatibility rather than a gulf in skill or power.

Originally posted by CaveDude33211
And Mace would see Dooku's shatterpoint and strike it as well.

Shatterpoint has never been effectively applied that way, though, not by Mace or by anybody else. Shatterpoints typically present themselves in ways that are either too literal or too abstract to be practically useful in a duel. In the case of his contest with Palpatine, Mace's use of shatterpoint is arguably what got him killed:



He was so reassured by his realization that Anakin was Palpatine's shatterpoint, so certain that victory was imminent, that he never even considered that Anakin would betray him. He was right about Palpatine's weakness, but he had no way of making use of it in the battle.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Windu has that RotS showing against Sidious and it's often argued how his fighting style would overpower Dooku's defense, like Anakin did.

Mace's fighting style doesn't actually emphasize physical strength, though; Vaapad is aggressive, but it's all about overwhelming the opponent with fast and erratic strikes, not pounding them like Djem So does. Besides, while Mace does have some fair strength feats to his name, Dooku deals with physically dominant opponents all of the time; his weakness against brute force is overstated. Mace Windu is no Savage Oppress, and he's certainly no Anakin Skywalker.

Sheev
TL;DR

haw-som

juggernaut74
Two days ago when I was in here last the poll had Mace winning 5-4 fastforward to today and Mace has gained 11 straight votes.

Interesting.

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