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Who wins?

Nur eats him.

Apoc

Despero TPs him.

Does he now? Apoc's pretty resistant.

Controlling Arthur the Halibut King and Manjobber is almost as impressive as the Jedi Mind Trick working on a stormtrooper

Has Apocalypse ever been defeated by telepathy before?

The only one I can think of who has was Ultimate Apocalypse (who was basically a crazy possessed Sinister), and even that took a fully Phoenix'd Jean Grey going all out, since Xavier's attacks completely failed.

Does Apoc have any TP feats? I mean I know he's meant to have TP, but I haven't really seen it tbf....

He punked Xavier, but that was during the Twelve Arc, when he was amped, if memory serves. So not usable.

--
He's knowledgeable about the astral plane, he's read Ozymandias' mind... but nobody's gonna argue that he can control/beat Despero with TP --- unless he redirects Despero's own psionic energy back at him, which is something he was shown to do.

Yah....I mean, he has some decent resistance feats, but then so would Hal, Bruce, Jonn, Arthur etc....and he mind controlled all of them simultaneously, whilst having a punch up with Supes.

Assuming its pre52 Despero, obv. I'm not familiar with how the forum is treating the various timelines after Doomsday's Cock.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm not familiar with how the forum is treating the various timelines after Doomsday's Cock.

Probably same as usual... the most biased way possible... which is using the composite version including feats from anything that happened Post-Crisis to current

Sinister has some potent TP --- and he had no doubt he would still be destroyed even by weakened Apocalypse.

Assuming post-Crisis Despero, he wins.

Apocalypse hasn't really been tested by this level of TP.

Despero wtf pwns

Ok, based on what do you say Apoc can fend off a TP attack? I DID ask for feats, and Stilt was the only one who answered. The only feat of note is redirecting Jean's psychic attack.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Apoc

Originally posted by carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, based on what do you say Apoc can fend off a TP attack? I DID ask for feats, and Stilt was the only one who answered. The only feat of note is redirecting Jean's psychic attack.

Well, there's also the fact that Sinister didn't even bother trying to psionically assault him in his weakened state --- and ran for his life instead.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, based on what do you say Apoc can fend off a TP attack? I DID ask for feats, and Stilt was the only one who answered. The only feat of note is redirecting Jean's psychic attack.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, there's also the fact that Sinister didn't even bother trying to psionically assault him in his weakened state --- and ran for his life instead.

@DS. There's no evidence to prove that Despero would have TP power over Apoc. We should therefore stick to what we know. That's what I'm saying.

If Apoc takes it to a physical fight, he'd be hard pressed to beat him.

NO ONE BEATS DESPERO!!!

Apoc restrained the Hulk with a single coil/arm... and hits with enough force to sever young Thor's skull from his spine, according to the impartial narrator.

Despero singelhandedly took on JLA lineups that would annihilate Apocalypse!

Originally posted by Stoic
@DS. There's no evidence to prove that Despero would have TP power over Apoc. We should therefore stick to what we know. That's what I'm saying.

Well we can compare their foes - and I am willing to bet Martian Manhunter has better TP feats than Apoc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well we can compare their foes - and I am willing to bet Martian Manhunter has better TP feats than Apoc.

It has less to do with TP feats and more to do with TP resistance feats, and the tech backing to accomplish said feats. J'onn has better TP manipulation feats than Lobo as well, but he'd never be able to give Lobo the mind whammy.

At this point we should just stick with what we know is all I'm getting at. Apoc on the other has devices that would scramble Despero's nervous system like what he initially rigged up for the Hulk, prior to making him War. Apoc has never been a physical pushover as far as I know either.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Despero singelhandedly took on JLA lineups that would annihilate Apocalypse!

Despero was also hurt by Aquaman, so we know that Apocalypse should be able to hurt him as well. Say what you want, but Virtue and Vice left a bad taste in my mouth with all of the flip flopping. The heroes literally ran face first into his fist. None of them fought to the best of their ability. Then we have the shit-ton of Despero versions, and their variable power levels. Apoc would easily be able to slap tech on Despero and give him a number imo.

Martian Manhunter ALSO has TP resistance feats. Spectre tried to get in - no bueno.

Not to mention Hal Jordan, Batman et Al - all of whom have impressive TP resistance, all of whom were SIMULTANEOUSLY controlled by Despero.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Martian Manhunter ALSO has TP resistance feats. Spectre tried to get in - no bueno.

Not to mention Hal Jordan, Batman et Al - all of whom have impressive TP resistance, all of whom were SIMULTANEOUSLY controlled by Despero.

Despero couldn't control Lobo though, and he's well below a couple that you mentioned. A nice resume doesn't give Despero a free pass to control a creature that has yet to be controled. The only time that I recall Apoc being manipulated was by Nate Grey's quasi reality warping TP. Not selling Despero short, but I never got the impression that he was on Nate Grey's highest levels? Despero like Lobo has tech to stunt the effects of mind domination. That tech on the other hand has been used to enthral many other characters.

Can you say without a doubt that Despero would be able to mind rape Apoc? If not, well it's like I said earlier.

I bet Mr Pickles would beat the both of them.

I dont think you should be using the despero/lobo fight. IIRC, that was a watered down Despero, who switched minds with L-Ron.

Typically, despero's TP is powerful enough to own MM telepathically.

I failed to see how this fight is close when you consider their average showings are on completely different tiers. Despero is a team buster that's capable of taking down elite teams like JLA. apocalypse fuk with X Men. I'm not brushed up on x men at all but from what I've seen apoc is not much above other villains like magneto if at all. And someone like magneto would be not be the top tier of teams like JLA or JSA

Originally posted by Stoic
Despero couldn't control Lobo though, and he's well below a couple that you mentioned. A nice resume doesn't give Despero a free pass to control a creature that has yet to be controled. The only time that I recall Apoc being manipulated was by Nate Grey's quasi reality warping TP. Not selling Despero short, but I never got the impression that he was on Nate Grey's highest levels? Despero like Lobo has tech to stunt the effects of mind domination. That tech on the other hand has been used to enthral many other characters.

Can you say without a doubt that Despero would be able to mind rape Apoc? If not, well it's like I said earlier.

Lobo's defence is above anyone here though, so I wouldn't use that like some kind of low showing. He literally doesn't do logic.

I dont think despero even used TP on lobo, if its the encounter I'm thinking.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lobo's defence is above anyone here though, so I wouldn't use that like some kind of low showing. He literally doesn't do logic.

If not for the Celestial technology there'd be no reason to disagree. However, it is known that he possesses it, and as such I don't think that we'd come to a true conclusion if we simply ignored it. TP doesn't work on Lobo because he too has tech that denies mind domination.

So where do we go from there? Do we venture to other possibilities, or outcomes? In other words, when does this become a physical confrontation, and what happens when we consider Apoc's ability to physically enthrall opponent's vs Despero's brawler type of fighting. Was it PIS when Aquaman hurt Despero?

Well considering in the very same issue Despero was surviving reentry whilst fighting MMH....you tell me. Personally, yes, I consider it PIS. But there you go.

TP doesn't work on Lobo....BUT we know that TP DOES work on Apoc. So it's really not the right analogy.

Originally posted by MrMind
I failed to see how this fight is close when you consider their average showings are on completely different tiers. Despero is a team buster that's capable of taking down elite teams like JLA. apocalypse fuk with X Men. I'm not brushed up on x men at all but from what I've seen apoc is not much above other villains like magneto if at all. And someone like magneto would be not be the top tier of teams like JLA or JSA

Nur stalemated HE who stalemated Galactus for a while, who had to resort to BFR

Does HE have telepathy?

Yes, among many other powers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well considering in the very same issue Despero was surviving reentry whilst fighting MMH....you tell me. Personally, yes, I consider it PIS. But there you go.

TP doesn't work on Lobo....BUT we know that TP DOES work on Apoc. So it's really not the right analogy.

What instance are you referring to concerning Apoc being affected by TP?

Has Despero ever been bested in TP?

Originally posted by Stoic
What instance are you referring to concerning Apoc being affected by TP?

With Jean Grey.

Although, he couldn't access the astral plane himself, and needed Cable to help him as he didn't have the power to do so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With Jean Grey.

He also mentioned how he would prepare for such an assault in the future

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Although, he couldn't access the astral plane himself, and needed Cable to help him as he didn't have the power to do so.

True.

At the same time, Cable thought it'd be wise to psionically "hide" Invisible Woman from Nur, iirc.

Apocalypse is one of those weird characters, whose powers haven't been well defined. Resistance to psionics is something that seems to be a standard part of his powerset, though.

616, TAS, other realities, too.

Problem with Desp is that he seems to be able to penetrate most defenses, right?

Yeah I mean, we could spam Batman's high end psi resistance feats Hal's, Aquaman, J'onn etc....and he took them all over and was controlling them simultaneously.

And yes, Cable hid Susan from Apocalypse. As a kid he was also able to block Apocalypse.

Lobo? He's meant to have the rock station playing 24/7, which is what gives him immunity. Hence what I mean by apples and oranges.

Despero can penetrate most defenses because of his third eye. The stronger the will, the easier it is to break down their will, iirc.

I'd say Post Crisis Despero's telepathic feats are better than Pre.

- absorbing psychic energy to power his own.
- feeding off emotions.
- creating life like illusions to fool the entire Justice league.
- mind controlling people across the universe.
- mind controlling Cyborg while on Rann.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/despero/4005-9548/forums/post-flashpoint-despero-respect-thread-1858248/

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I mean, we could spam Batman's high end psi resistance feats Hal's, Aquaman, J'onn etc....and he took them all over and was controlling them simultaneously.

And yes, Cable hid Susan from Apocalypse. As a kid he was also able to block Apocalypse.

Lobo? He's meant to have the rock station playing 24/7, which is what gives him immunity. Hence what I mean by apples and oranges.

True, but tech to prevent mind domination is still tech to prevent mind domination. Doesn't really much matter what it's called. This still becomes a subject that no one knows for certain. H2H seems to be the next logical step.

Who has Apoc prevented from getting into his head?

Jean Grey.

Then you have Sinister and Cable not even bothering to assault him telepathically... Essex fleeing from his master, Cable going hand-to-hand with him and using his psimitar.

I've never seen Despero's penis on panel.

Originally posted by Stoic
True, but tech to prevent mind domination is still tech to prevent mind domination. Doesn't really much matter what it's called. This still becomes a subject that no one knows for certain. H2H seems to be the next logical step.

But Apoc doesn't have this. He's been affected by TP (see my reply to you on the previous page).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With Jean Grey.

Although, he couldn't access the astral plane himself, and needed Cable to help him as he didn't have the power to do so.

Explain the Jean Grey encounter to me please.

When Apoc fought Jean wasn't she without the PF?

Originally posted by Stoic
Explain the Jean Grey encounter to me please.

Here's the scan:

http://i.imgur.com/r7c6pi4.png

Here is a separate incident, where Apocalypse doesn't have the power to get onto the astral plane without Cable's help:

http://i.imgur.com/ORvzAcu.jpg

Before people lose the point I am trying to make, the point is that Apocalypse can be affected by TP.

Do you have any recollection of Apoc being mind raped? That scan doesn't seem to be enough evidence. Apoc isn't actively resisting.

Originally posted by Stoic
Do you have any recollection of Apoc being mind raped? That scan doesn't seem to be enough evidence. Apoc isn't actively resisting.

Hey now. You're moving the goal posts:

Originally posted by Stoic
What instance are you referring to concerning Apoc being affected by TP?

I was saying that Apoc has been affected by TP. Because your original post was:

Originally posted by Stoic
If not for the Celestial technology there'd be no reason to disagree. However, it is known that he possesses it, and as such I don't think that we'd come to a true conclusion if we simply ignored it. TP doesn't work on Lobo because he too has tech that denies mind domination.

So..my point is that Apoc HAS been affected by psi attacks, doesn't have the power to access the astral plane, and this is all despite his Celestial tech.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hey now. You're moving the goal posts:



I was saying that Apoc has been affected by TP. Because your original post was:



So..my point is that Apoc HAS been affected by psi attacks, doesn't have the power to access the astral plane, and this is all despite his Celestial tech.

Sorry I was rushed earlier. I only had time to glance at the 1st scan. The art is so bad that I barely made out that mess being Apoc in pain. You're absolutely correct. Despero should absolutely be able to peel his head open like a soft melon. Unless he's able to bounce it back like he did in that scan.

To be fair, that was Apoc from the past --- from the Victorian era of UK, to be precise.

If a psionic attack had been a viable option, then he wouldn't have trashed people like Exodus.

His TP defense is certainly implied to be high , but it depends how far we're willing to go with it without actual, direct feats.

I mean, we can give Prime crazy TP defenses, considering who he faced, too

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
To be fair, that was Apoc from the past --- from the Victorian era of UK, to be precise.

If a psionic attack had been a viable option, then he wouldn't have trashed people like Exodus.

Yeah fine, we can have IMPLIED feats if we want. But that's a slippery slope, as Phildo points out.

Explicitly not having the power to access the Astral Plane is more telling, I feel. Especially since both my scans are actually from Apocs respect thread.

You should beg Phil for forgiveness and commit seppuku, as you used the awful one from reddit.

Emma couldn't even handle a mere horseman, btw.

Meh it's horsemen, not the actual real deal.

Exactly.

That's why telepaths don't even bother with that strategy against Apoc himself

Despero would just pick up the Smurf, crush him into a nice round shape and play soccer with him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Exactly.

That's why telepaths don't even bother with that strategy against Apoc himself

Lol. Whilst Apoc has to rely on second hand feats and scaling, Despero goes ahead and steamrolls characters who have double or even triple the feats Apoc has.

Manjobber and Aquaman have anti-feats, mostly

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Manjobber and Aquaman have anti-feats, mostly

Don't ****ing push me.

Nur reversed a whole pyschic attack from Jean before

https://i.postimg.cc/K1FYXrbS/5013691-reverses-jean-greys-telepathic-attack.png

Never seen that, who is in that scan?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never seen that, who is in that scan?

Jean and Apocalypse

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never seen that, who is in that scan?

DC retconned Arthur's tp to be just another fancy sea power --- I hope you're digging that, Pr

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
DC retconned Arthur's tp to be just another fancy sea power --- I hope you're digging that, Pr

Again? Or are you talking about N52, which has since been retconned?

Nah, it was during Rebirth, Drowned Earth.

Life Force magic shenanigans.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
DC retconned Arthur's tp to be just another fancy sea power --- I hope you're digging that, Pr

Rrally when? I keep up with that comic and i haven't seen anything loke that

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nah, it was during Rebirth, Drowned Earth.

Life Force magic shenanigans.

https://i.ibb.co/7C18N8b/aquamansucks1.png

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/7C18N8b/aquamansucks1.png



Oh, that? I guess you could look at it that way. It's not like DC hasn't been pushing him more and more magic stuff for a while now.

Hear the ocean, Pr.

https://tinyurl.com/ubwodgg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hear the ocean, Pr.

https://tinyurl.com/ubwodgg

lol.

It is sad though, how far Abnett has fallen since he and Lanning stopped working together.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Whilst Apoc has to rely on second hand feats and scaling, Despero goes ahead and steamrolls characters who have double or even triple the feats Apoc has.

See this is what I mean. There is still the possibility that he might resist long enough to go into offense. I agree with your stance, but it still isn't 100% guaranteed that things would play out that way. This might actually turn into a huge upset.

IMO, if Despero is able to win the mind domination battle, he wins big. But if he doesn't... We'd need to consider that Apoc has his own methods of winning by enthrallment, and his reach advantage is considerable. I do agree with your stance but I just can't agree that your conclusion is the only relevant conclusion.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Exactly.

That's why telepaths don't even bother with that strategy against Apoc himself It's funny how sometimes, Apoc's underlings/horsemen/henchmen have feats that would make even him proud . Until we saw him against Thor, we'd have thought that type of performance would be above him

I should probably update the respect thread with Harbinger's showings...

Magneto.

Stilt, fight me

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You just asked one of the biggest Magnus fans on the web to repeat what he's been saying for 13 years.

Are you going to ask zopzop if he's gay next?



Yeah, I see what you're saying, but War's performance against Emma is not something Nur shouldn't be capable of.

Phil, do you remember if Jean had her Phoenix powers when she met Essex and Apoc in the past? I know that she did go by the codename "Phoenix" then and the book title is saying that too, but I'm still not sure.

@DS

Anyway, we're going in circles now, I already agreed on page 2 that Despero is tailor-made for conquering all minds, strong or not. That's his whole thing. I agree.

At this point, I can't follow what Jean taps when with what Phoenix force. I just consider her "regular" Jean.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Stilt, fight me

I'm getting too old for this shit.

https://tinyurl.com/t96vycm

--
As mentioned already, Apoc does have a great track record against telepaths (Jean, Exodus, Cable) and powerful beings with vast arrays of powers, including some psionic abilities (Prime Eternal Ikaris, High Evolutionary).

Then you have Mister Sinister, who keeps rebelling/plotting against Nur... instead of, you know, obliterating him with a barrage of mental blasts.

I agree that Blue Lips needs more on panel feats, but Marvel keeps wanking Purple Chin instead.

Racism at its worst.

I think it's regular Jean, but that's me. Or at least at the time it was mean to be, anwyay.

Any idea why she still goes by Phoenix, then?

I always thought she used that codename for a reason, you know.

Then again, women never make any sense.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Any idea why she still goes by Phoenix, then?

I always thought she used that codename for a reason, you know.

Then again, women never make any sense.

Was it not something to do with Rachel asking her to, or something? It's been a while since I read it.

Edit: Found it:

https://i.imgur.com/O0yVbk9.jpg

Originally posted by -Pr-
Was it not something to do with Rachel asking her to, or something? It's been a while since I read it.

Edit: Found it:



Great find. That'd explain it. Thank you.

And thank Marvel for revealing to us how Phoenix-less Jean is even more powerful...

lol np.

When did the retcon happen? Or are you talking about what happend after Zero Tolerance?

Nah, not Zero Tolerance.

I'm talking about the quite recent events --- shortly after Jean was brought back.

Scans were posted on KMC (but they got buried, as usual), I think the idea got explored in the X-Men: Red run:

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-red-jean-grey-more-powerful-phoenix/

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nah, not Zero Tolerance.

I'm talking about the quite recent events --- shortly after Jean was brought back.

Scans were posted on KMC (but they got buried, as usual), I think the idea got explored in the X-Men: Red run:

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-red-jean-grey-more-powerful-phoenix/

JFC.

Also, credit to the artist for the third panel in which she's squatting to take a shit on our childhoods.

There is True Darkseid... there is True Jean... stop hating, bro

lol.

Also, just fyi, that scan is from Cyclops and Phoenix #4. Not the Further Adventures, which is the one posted earlier with Apoc and Sinister.

Thank you

I love how Lex Luthor makes a cameo in your scan biscuits