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Maul has his double bladed light saber and Ventress has her dual light sabers.

They fight on Lothal.

Maul

Definitely Maul.

Ventress was closer to Opress level.

I think it's close either way.

Ventress in a difficult match

Ventress bested Grievous in a duel while Grievous appeared to have the upper hand against Maul.

While not enough to say Ventress wins it's something to consider.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Ventress bested Grievous in a duel while Grievous appeared to have the upper hand against Maul.
what

Maul > Ventress
Maul > Grievous

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Ventress bested Grievous in a duel while Grievous appeared to have the upper hand against Maul.

While not enough to say Ventress wins it's something to consider.

Ventress was empowered by the Dark Side of Dathomir, so it's an invalid feat.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Ventress was empowered by the Dark Side of Dathomir, so it's an invalid feat.


Filoni stated it was a legit feat.

But then canon authors have ignored dark side nexus amps for the most part

Aside from Mortis, have "nexus amps" even been mentioned or used in canon at all?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Ventress was empowered by the Dark Side of Dathomir, so it's an invalid feat. I call BS on that. The entire clan of Night Sisters were taken down by imbacile droids on their own planet.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Aside from Mortis, have "nexus amps" even been mentioned or used in canon at all?


Dont think so. Places strong in the dark side exist, but nothing about them amping a darksider. More to do with it being easier to give in to your rage.

Although I suppose its logical to put 2 and 2 together, writers/directors seem to have ignored that amping them. Like Filonis commentary in the case of Ventress vs Grievous. Although Ventress did bring Vos to Dathomir to help him embrace the dark side in Dark Disciple IIRC.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dont think so. Places strong in the dark side exist, but nothing about them amping a darksider. More to do with it being easier to give in to your rage.

That's no different, though. If a dark sider, who draws strength from passion, is exposed to something that triggers his/her rage, then it follows that they will become stronger. It's a similar principle to the enhancing element of Bane's orbalisk armor.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's no different, though. If a dark sider, who draws strength from passion, is exposed to something that triggers his/her rage, then it follows that they will become stronger. It's a similar principle to the enhancing element of Bane's orbalisk armor.


Like I said, its logical. But writers/directors have pretty much ignored that in canon, as far as im aware.

And no specific quotes like was described for Dooku on Vjun in Dark Rendezvous.

Maul should win

Maul wins

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dont think so. Places strong in the dark side exist, but nothing about them amping a darksider. More to do with it being easier to give in to your rage.

Although I suppose its logical to put 2 and 2 together, writers/directors seem to have ignored that amping them. Like Filonis commentary in the case of Ventress vs Grievous. Although Ventress did bring Vos to Dathomir to help him embrace the dark side in Dark Disciple IIRC. Like for example I'm pretty sure Ahch-To was powerful with the Force, so does that mean it was amping Luke??

yes

But why? Canon hasn't put any emphasis on any "nexuses" amping force users at all,, aside from Mortis (which was a UNIVERSAL nexus so that made sense.)

Almost seems like it should be looked at on a case by case basis where canon is concerned. Like, if the text mentions them drawing on the power of the "nexus" or whatever, then obviously they were using its power. But it doesn't seem like the intent is that they are automatically amped just by stepping foot on a nexus imo.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Filoni stated it was a legit feat.

But then canon authors have ignored dark side nexus amps for the most part

Filoni's statements don't override what the official material says i.e. StarWars.Com.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Filoni's statements don't override what the official material says i.e. StarWars.Com.


They dont need to, given his comments dont contradict the official material.

The win was legit though as per Filoni.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
They dont need to, given his comments dont contradict the official material.

The win was legit though as per Filoni.

No statements from any creators are canonical in and of themselves, and I wasn't disputing that Ventress defeated Grievous because that's not mutually exclusive with the Dark Side Nexus of Dathomir empowering her. Can I see the exact wording of Filoni's comments of their fight?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
No statements from any creators are canonical in and of themselves, and I wasn't disputing that Ventress defeated Grievous because that's not mutually exclusive with the Dark Side Nexus of Dathomir empowering her. Can I see the exact wording of Filoni's comments of their fight?


Director commentary is usual used. Just like we use Lucas commentary of the films.

And you are right Ventress superiority being legit is not mutually exclusive with her being amped by a dark side nexus, as it just means she will win with or without that amp.

I will provide the quote later. In the meantime you can provide the quote that states Ventress was amped.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Director commentary is usual used. Just like we use Lucas commentary of the films.

And you are right Ventress superiority being legit is not mutually exclusive with her being amped by a dark side nexus, as it just means she will win with or without that amp.

I will provide the quote later. In the meantime you can provide the quote that states Ventress was amped.

OK, I'll wait for you to retrieve Filoni's quote before I comment more on the Ventress vs Grievous fight. Force Nexuses do exist in Canon in some capacity, and Dathomir is an implied Dark Side Nexus:



^ Scroll down to the 16th image of the history gallery and you'll find it.

So the official SW site describes Dathomir as being "steeped in Dark Side powers," which sounds like a description of a Dark Side Nexus, so the Nightsister inhabitants would logically be empowered beyond their regular abilities. This is confirmed by Maul:



Maul says that the witches i.e. another term for the Nightsisters, had a connection with the planet that made them strong, and we know that Ventress is a nightsister:



This is also shown in the show itself, when Mother Talzin says "She is one of us," to the other Nightsisters that attacked Ventress without realising what she was, and Dooku also knows this, hence why he says "Savage, you could make amends for your mistake by destroying this witch!"

^ Okay thats more related to Dathomir amping Nightsisters, than it is about a dark side nexus amping dark siders.

And I agree that much is quite clear.

However unless Ventress was actually using nightsister magic, I fail to see the relevance. She was a trained force user (more so in the dark side), and wasnt well versed in nightsister magic as far as we know.

And Even as a dark sider, she already seemed to be on her path to redemption by that point.

Anyway will post Filonis later when im on my laptop (hardly ever post on KMC from a laptop anymore).

Steeped in dark side powers can mean a variety things. Like all the weird ass magic they do.

In any case darksiders getting a combat amp because a planet is steeped in the dark side has not been confirmed anywhere in canon. Though it does apply to Legends.

Also what homicidal behaviour did we see from her at that point?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Steeped in dark side powers can mean a variety things.

Yes but it clearly means that it's strong with the Dark Side of the Force, hence why it says "Dark Side powers". A planet with powers described like that would evidently empower Force users that use the Dark Side because Dark Siders not only have their own strength to draw on (anger, hatred, malice etc.) but also the planet's Dark Side powers.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Like all the weird ass magic they do.

That doesn't actually help your point, but helps mine because the nature of Nightsister magic is really similiar to Sith sorcery, hence why Talzin's magic transformed Savage into a massive hate filled Dark Side warrior:



As the official SW site says, Savage became filled with hate and and Dark Side as a result of Talzin's magic.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In any case darksiders getting a combat amp because a planet is steeped in the dark side has not been confirmed anywhere in canon. Though it does apply to Legends.

I'd say it does because absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence, mainly because that Canon is using Legends to flesh out their own lore. Filoni and his creative team may not pay attention to Force Nexuses and how they work, but the Rebels creative team are only a small number of the Lucasfilm staff who are involved in Star Wars projects, so the notion of them failing to realise Force Nexuses and stuff doesn't rule it out.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also what homicidal behaviour did we see from her at that point?

The fact that she is screaming like a typical Dark Sider while fighting Grievous: https://youtu.be/TWGYnSUDdRY?t=60

And she already hates Grievous anyway.

Maul's performance against the Inqs in Rebels was >>> Ahsoka's, and considering Maul was holding back, trying to appear feeble (why would he say he can't kill Vader alone but turn on his teammates?) as well as it being "the logical choice" to send him with Ezra (the weakest Jedi) is evident of his superiority to her. Ahsoka's performance against Vader is something Ventress cannot replicate.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212


I'd say it does because absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence, mainly because that Canon is using Legends to flesh out their own lore. Filoni and his creative team may not pay attention to Force Nexuses and how they work, but the Rebels creative team are only a small number of the Lucasfilm staff who are involved in Star Wars projects, so the notion of them failing to realise Force Nexuses and stuff doesn't rule it out.





So who does use Dark Side nexus to boost combat abilities in canon? Which Author has stated that in which canon novel or comic?

It's not just Filoni, but also Pablo Hidalgo and Matt Smith. IOW even the Story Group hasn't given it much thought, yet you're acting as if it's canon that Ventress only beat Grievous due to some major amp


In any case here is Filoni's commentary of the fight:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

Relevant comment:

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight."


Now I don't want you twisting his commentary of his. You can make the argument that not everything he says is necessarily canon, but if you twist his words to pretend he didn't actually mean Ventress is better than Grievous in sabers when that's exactly what he said, then I'm done here.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So who does use Dark Side nexus to boost combat abilities in canon?

Dark Siders would use it because they use the Dark Side of the Force and a nexus gives them more of that :/

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which Author has stated that in which canon novel or comic?


None from what I'm aware (if you're talking about Dathomir), I'm going by holistic intent, not statements, because canon takes inspiration from Legends a lot, to the point they reprint stuff from Legends stuff into Canon stuff e.g. Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


I don't think it's factual that Ventress was amped in canon but it's likely. And when Pablo Hidalgo was asked about if Vader was empowered by Malachor on twitter, he said it's possible but didn't confirm it or disconfirm it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In any case here is Filoni's commentary of the fight:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/...season-4?page=3

Relevant comment:

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight."

Now I don't want you twisting his commentary of his. You can make the argument that not everything he says is necessarily canon, but if you twist his words to pretend he didn't actually mean Ventress is better than Grievous in sabers when that's exactly what he said, then I'm done here.


Filoni has made himself clear in that article, but in his statement he says that "I still don't believe" that Grievous would beat Ventress, so it's his arbitrary opinion as he explicitly says. Leland Chee IIRC, has said that the opinions of SW officials aren't canon because they have their own biases, and Filoni's incredulity sounds biased.

I think Dathomir is meant to be a Dark Side nexus, this source heavily implies it is:



The source above is either from 2013 or 2014, it was published after the existence of TCW. There's more sources reinforcing it:







And we also have Maul's statement confirming that Dathomir is what made the nightsister witches strong.

Maul wins.

I just rewatched the Ventress/Kenobo vs Maul/Opress battle on the YouTube and noticed Ventress seemed to hold her own against Maul whenever they battled. I don't know if fighting with one lightsaber affected her ability because her style relies on two sabers.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I just rewatched the Ventress/Kenobo vs Maul/Opress battle on the YouTube and noticed Ventress seemed to hold her own against Maul whenever they battled. I don't know if fighting with one lightsaber affected her ability because her style relies on two sabers.

If you're going to argue that fighting with one lightsaber affected her ability, then I can also argue the same thing for Maul because there are multiple quotes indicating that Maul is better than two blades than 1 blade, one source i.e. Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force, even saying that Maul finds a single blade "far too limiting" to be blunt. Moreover, you're also neglecting to mention that version of Maul i.e. TCW S4 Maul, is inferior to his TPM self, let alone his SoD self, because it's the first lightsaber fight he's been in for 12 years, so he's barely gotten over ring rust in that episode, and throughout the course of TCW, much of his growth is basically shaking of 12 years of rust, it's only when Maul has taken over Mandalore that he has finally surpassed his TPM self. Morever, the same version of Maul in that fight, is fighting with a pair of chicken legs that were explicitly stated to be inferior to his mandalorian legs because these chicken legs hampered Maul's ability to incorporate martial arts and acrobatics in his fighting style, whereas Maul's mandalorian legs didn't, given that they had the same build as his organic Zabrack legs prior to being separated. SoD Maul > TPM Maul > TCW S4 Maul.

StarWars.com also states that both Ventress and Savage were overwhelmed by the "raw power" of Maul and Savage, which is why they retreated, meaning that if they hadn't retreated, they would've eventually died, and considering the fact that Ventress and Maul were fighting each other in the final moments of the battle, this means that Maul would've eventually overwhelmed Ventress through "raw power" if she hadn't retreated.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
If you're going to argue that fighting with one lightsaber affected her ability, then I can also argue the same thing for Maul because there are multiple quotes indicating that Maul is better than two blades than 1 blade, one source i.e. Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force, even saying that Maul finds a single blade "far too limiting" to be blunt. Moreover, you're also neglecting to mention that version of Maul i.e. TCW S4 Maul, is inferior to his TPM self, let alone his SoD self, because it's the first lightsaber fight he's been in for 12 years, so he's barely gotten over ring rust in that episode, and throughout the course of TCW, much of his growth is basically shaking of 12 years of rust, it's only when Maul has taken over Mandalore that he has finally surpassed his TPM self. Morever, the same version of Maul in that fight, is fighting with a pair of chicken legs that were explicitly stated to be inferior to his mandalorian legs because these chicken legs hampered Maul's ability to incorporate martial arts and acrobatics in his fighting style, whereas Maul's mandalorian legs didn't, given that they had the same build as his organic Zabrack legs prior to being separated. SoD Maul > TPM Maul > TCW S4 Maul.

StarWars.com also states that both Ventress and Savage were overwhelmed by the "raw power" of Maul and Savage, which is why they retreated, meaning that if they hadn't retreated, they would've eventually died, and considering the fact that Ventress and Maul were fighting each other in the final moments of the battle, this means that Maul would've eventually overwhelmed Ventress through "raw power" if she hadn't retreated. Ok I see you seem to think that I think Ventress wins, which I don't.

1. I didn't say it effected just that maybe it did(and I knew you'd come back with Maul only using a single blade).

2. So your saying an inferior S4 Maul can overpower a Jedi Master Kenobi? Because I recall Kenobi doing just fine against these two by himself and even chopping Savages arm off.

Maul wins. But it's fairly close. Kenobi, Ventress, and Maul are all on a similar level during TCW.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Ok I see you seem to think that I think Ventress wins, which I don't.

1. I didn't say it effected just that maybe it did(and I knew you'd come back with Maul only using a single blade).

2. So your saying an inferior S4 Maul can overpower a Jedi Master Kenobi? Because I recall Kenobi doing just fine against these two by himself and even chopping Savages arm off.

1. Cool. If it did affect Ventress, the same would apply to Maul.

2. No? Which version of "Jedi Master" Kenobi are you talking about? Kenobi in S5 beat Maul and Savage through an environmental advantage that limited the brother's movements, which is Sokan use on Obi-Wan's part. Plus, Kenobi was using Jar Kai at that point, which is optimized for multiple opponents.

What is Maul's best feat?

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
1. Cool. If it did affect Ventress, the same would apply to Maul.

2. No? Which version of "Jedi Master" Kenobi are you talking about? Kenobi in S5 beat Maul and Savage through an environmental advantage that limited the brother's movements, which is Sokan use on Obi-Wan's part. Plus, Kenobi was using Jar Kai at that point, which is optimized for multiple opponents.

Really? That's your argument?

That just means Kenobi is smart enough to alter his tactics.

Originally posted by Scizard
What is Maul's best feat? He killed a Padawan in a prequel comic once.

Beat a non force user Pre Vizla

Killed Qui-Gon

Killed an Inquisitor or two.

Maul's got some good ones for sure.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Really? That's your argument?

That just means Kenobi is smart enough to alter his tactics.

What's wrong with it? LFL sources indicate that Maul is better with two blades than 1 blade, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass.

Yeah he used different tactics, but they weren't fighting on neutral ground, and they were also initially caught off guard by Obi-Wan's aggression because their tactics and instincts were accustomed to the tempo of a defensive and passive Kenobi. This wouldn't happen to SoD Maul and Savage as of The Lawless episode because they'll know what to expect this time.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
What's wrong with it? LFL sources indicate that Maul is better with two blades than 1 blade, I'm not pulling shit out of my ass.

Yeah he used different tactics, but they weren't fighting on neutral ground, and they were also initially caught off guard by Obi-Wan's aggression because their tactics and instincts were accustomed to the tempo of a defensive and passive Kenobi. This wouldn't happen to SoD Maul and Savage as of The Lawless episode because they'll know what to expect this time. Man you need to stop making stuff up. If Maul and Savage were so skilled they'd alter their moves the same way Kenobi Does, kudos to Kenobi.

BTW in the first fight they were in close quarters as well I recall they were fighting in a cargo bay of a ship. The second fight made it pretty clear that Kenobi could have killed Savage if Maul wasn't there to save him. Kenobi learns from his mistakes as well.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Man you need to stop making stuff up. If Maul and Savage were so skilled they'd alter their moves the same way Kenobi Does, kudos to Kenobi.

BTW in the first fight they were in close quarters as well I recall they were fighting in a cargo bay of a ship. The second fight made it pretty clear that Kenobi could have killed Savage if Maul wasn't there to save him. Kenobi learns from his mistakes as well.

it mentioned somewhere that Kenobi was quite amped then and had more of an advantage because the place was falling apart thats why maul had to resort to force pushing kenobi away after he had chopped savages arm of ..

Do you guys make stuff up?

I find the one lightsaber thing to be a bit bs. If Maul really found it THAT limiting he would've just stole Savage's saber.

I also don't see how the small space is a disadvantage to anyone but Kenobi considering it only makes him more trapped than he already is and they all have lightsabers, not like their swords are gonna get stuck.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Man you need to stop making stuff up. If Maul and Savage were so skilled they'd alter their moves the same way Kenobi Does, kudos to Kenobi.

BTW in the first fight they were in close quarters as well I recall they were fighting in a cargo bay of a ship. The second fight made it pretty clear that Kenobi could have killed Savage if Maul wasn't there to save him. Kenobi learns from his mistakes as well.

I'm not making anything up, you just don't understand my argument and tbh I think you're just low balling Maul and Savage. Shadow Conspiracy explicitly states that Maul and Savage were "startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attack" which doesn't contradict the episode, because it's describing the internal reactions of the characters, which the episodes themselves don't spell out for us. The reason why they were initially startled was because their tactics and instintcs are accustomed to an Obi-Wan who was only using one blade in a defensive approach, so they mentally unprepared for the random change in Obi-Wan's approach. The fact that Maul and Savage don't immediately alter their moves isn't because they lack skill, it's because they used the wrong tactics at the beginning of the fight, not realising that Kenobi was going to fight more aggressively.

As for the cargo ship, Maul and Savage fought Kenobi there, but Kenobi was rapidly being pressed back and he knew he was going to lose on neutral ground.

Originally posted by Scizard
I find the one lightsaber thing to be a bit bs. If Maul really found it THAT limiting he would've just stole Savage's saber.

I also don't see how the small space is a disadvantage to anyone but Kenobi considering it only makes him more trapped than he already is and they all have lightsabers, not like their swords are gonna get stuck.

The reason why he didn't steal Savage's lightsaber is because Savage needed his double bladed lightsaber, so the quotes aren't actually BS.

It wasn't a disadvantage to Kenobi tbh, that's assuming that Kenobi intentionally hindered himself, which is ludicrous because Kenobi is a famous Sokan user. Moreover, the environment itself absolutely would've limited the brothers' movements because they're much bigger and taller than Kenobi, whereas Kenobi is smaller and shorter, and this is proven that he feasibly performed really elobarate acrobatics, whereas all what Savage could do is a simple backflip, whereas Maul doesn't even leap at any point. despite being notorious for incorporating acrobatics in his fighting style -- this might have something to do with the fact that Maul's elongated legs made him unusually taller, and he wasn't able to perform his usual acrobatics in that small environment due to the limited space and unusual build of his legs. Maul and Savage blindly followed Kenobi to the cave because Maul experienced tunnel vision due to his plans being disrupted, he didn't know what Kenobi was doing.

Originally posted by Scizard
What is Maul's best feat?

Fighting Mace Windu & Aayla Secura in a mostly off panel fight in SoD comics.

Not really long enough to be considered a proper feat.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I'm not making anything up, you just don't understand my argument and tbh I think you're just low balling Maul and Savage. Shadow Conspiracy explicitly states that Maul and Savage were "startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attack" which doesn't contradict the episode, because it's describing the internal reactions of the characters, which the episodes themselves don't spell out for us. The reason why they were initially startled was because their tactics and instintcs are accustomed to an Obi-Wan who was only using one blade in a defensive approach, so they mentally unprepared for the random change in Obi-Wan's approach. The fact that Maul and Savage don't immediately alter their moves isn't because they lack skill, it's because they used the wrong tactics at the beginning of the fight, not realising that Kenobi was going to fight more aggressively.

As for the cargo ship, Maul and Savage fought Kenobi there, but Kenobi was rapidly being pressed back and he knew he was going to lose on neutral ground. Like I said stop making stuff up. Kenobi was smart enough to learn from his mistakes the same way Maul/Savage should have but apparently didn't. Originally posted by Scizard
I find the one lightsaber thing to be a bit bs. If Maul really found it THAT limiting he would've just stole Savage's saber.

I also don't see how the small space is a disadvantage to anyone but Kenobi considering it only makes him more trapped than he already is and they all have lightsabers, not like their swords are gonna get stuck. It didn't make a difference.

Surely being a dark side acolyte is far superior to being a Sith Lord. Let alone that with dual lighstabers you can attack from two directions at the time. Saberstaff is as inferior to dual blads as Sith Lord is to Dark Acolyte. Ventress stomps.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Like I said stop making stuff up. Kenobi was smart enough to learn from his mistakes the same way Maul/Savage should have but apparently didn't.

It didn't make a difference.

I'm not making stuff up, I literally quoted a sentence from an LFL source and added further analysis of it, and this is this is your response? And the notion that Maul/Savage apparently didn't learn from their mistakes is assuming that they had another fight with Kenobi in the exact same type of environment - this is obviously false, but it didn't happen. You've not addressed anything that I've said, I don't want to spend several pages repeating myself, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think Maul has a slight edge over Ventress

Originally posted by Scizard
Not really long enough to be considered a proper feat.

Then define what a "proper feat" is, because people's definitions of good feat varies from what I've noticed. I think it's Maul's best feat because he fought Mace mother****ing Windu whilst duelling another Jedi at the same time, both Jedi were demonstrably attacking Maul from different directions, and Maul, whilst dividing his attention span between both opponents, was able to fend them both off by parrying Windu's strike, whilst delivering a powerful kick to Aayla Secura at the same time. Not to mention, he achieved this whilst only using 1 blade, and Maul's primary form, Juyo, isn't suitable for multiple lightsaber wielding opponents, but Maul's mastery of Juyo was refined and masterful enough to achieve this feat.

Granted, this happened in a short period of time, but what can't be denied is that it happened in a comic. Take a look at this:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5426373-4228702-cut%2Bcontent.png

When looking at Maul's fight with Windu, you don't exactly see any actions that are complicated, the most "complicated" action you see is Maul kicking Secura in the face while simultaneously parrying a strike with Windu, which is a simple action to depict. The artists of the Son of Dathomir comics only depicted small fractions of the entire fight so that the space of the entire Comic isn't being used up by a simple fight, they don't have enough space to show the readers the entire fights as a whole because of the amount of events that take place in the storyline. Showing the audience lightsaber battles isn't the only priority for the writers. Story telling and character development was more important, and the writer prioritized that over the action and battles because of the writer's limited resources.

Originally posted by McP
Surely being a dark side acolyte is far superior to being a Sith Lord. Let alone that with dual lighstabers you can attack from two directions at the time. Saberstaff is as inferior to dual blads as Sith Lord is to Dark Acolyte. Ventress stomps.

Indeed. Ventress is a true Sith Lord, Maul was a mere assassin!

Of course you have to cut a lot and wow he managed to block one strike against Mace Windu and use his leg against another featless Jedi.

We have literally no idea how well he did against Windu. Ezra fights Vader for two seconds, that doesn't make it a feat worthy of praise. Sure I get your point about comic books can't spend time on everything, but you can't just assume that Maul had a noteworthy fight with Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Scizard
Of course you have to cut a lot and wow he managed to block one strike against Mace Windu and use his leg against another featless Jedi.

We have literally no idea how well he did against Windu. Ezra fights Vader for two seconds, that doesn't make it a feat worthy of praise. Sure I get your point about comic books can't spend time on everything, but you can't just assume that Maul had a noteworthy fight with Mace Windu.

Blocking one strike from Mace Windu whilst delivering a kick to Aayla Secura, who by the way, isn't a featless Jedi at all , isn't something to scoff at, and you've handwaved my explanation for why it's impressive.

Ezra didn't fight Vader for 2 seconds LMFAO, he fought him for 25 seconds, and Vader probably didn't even exert himself because he takes pauses while duelling, to make a conversation with Ezra, and Ezra was blatantly outclassed by Vader anyway when they actually locked blades.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Blocking one strike from Mace Windu whilst delivering a kick to Aayla Secura, who by the way, isn't a featless Jedi at all , isn't something to scoff at, and you've handwaved my explanation for why it's impressive.

Ezra didn't fight Vader for 2 seconds LMFAO, he fought him for 25 seconds, and Vader probably didn't even exert himself because he takes pauses while duelling, to make a conversation with Ezra, and Ezra was blatantly outclassed by Vader anyway when they actually locked blades.

We're talking about legends now? Mixing up canon with legends doesn't go well. Canon Aayla isn't the same as legends Aayla.

I'll clarify why it isn't impressive then. Maul is leagues above Aayla, shown by how he just one shots her, directing a bit of energy to dispose of Aayla isn't all that impressive. It just shows he is capable of multi-tasking.

And by the way Mace is holding his lightsaber it looks like Mace is the one blocking the strike, not Maul. I would say it also shows strength and balance, but it doesn't suddenly make Maul that impressive, it's certainly not a scalable feat. It doesn't tell us anything other than Maul can clash blades with Mace Windu, which is obvious considering he was able to briefely clash with Palpatine and even extremely weak characters are able to clash with far stronger opponents. I don't see what else this proves?

Also I'm referring to his fight in Season 2, not one.

Originally posted by Scizard
We're talking about legends now? Mixing up canon with legends doesn't go well. Canon Aayla isn't the same as legends Aayla.

I'll clarify why it isn't impressive then. Maul is leagues above Aayla, shown by how he just one shots her, directing a bit of energy to dispose of Aayla isn't all that impressive. It just shows he is capable of multi-tasking.

And by the way Mace is holding his lightsaber it looks like Mace is the one blocking the strike, not Maul. I would say it also shows strength and balance, but it doesn't suddenly make Maul that impressive, it's certainly not a scalable feat. It doesn't tell us anything other than Maul can clash blades with Mace Windu, which is obvious considering he was able to briefely clash with Palpatine and even extremely weak characters are able to clash with far stronger opponents. I don't see what else this proves?

Also I'm referring to his fight in Season 2, not one.

Son of Dathomir comics exist in Legends to, not just Canon. It exists in both continuities, so it's usable for both Legends and Canon debates.

Yes it shows that Maul is leagues above Aayla, what's bad about being leagues above Aayla? And Maul wasn't just merely multitasking, he was multitasking when fighting Mace mother****ing Windu whilst dealing with Aayla at the same time, and this speaks volumes of Maul's refined skill set because Juyo, his main form, isn't designed for multiple opponents, Maul's feat of contending with Mace whilst dealing with another Jedi at the same time shows us that Maul is a great and masterful swordsman.

Comic panels are static images though, I could also argue that Maul is parrying a strike from Mace, and even if Maul is attacking and Mace is blocking Maul's strike, that doesn't render it less impressive. I'm not trying to use the feat to scale off anything, so you're strawmanning me. Maul clashed blades with Sidious indeed... Whilst having help from Savage Opress, whilst fighting a Sidious who was trolling them given how he is almost constantly laughing his ass off, and in the Shadow Conspiracy novelised version of the fight, Sidious ramps up his speed at the end and becomes far too fast for Maul to percieve, which implies that Sidious only starts getting serious in the end of the fight, which is when Maul is rage amped over Savage's death.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I'm not making stuff up, I literally quoted a sentence from an LFL source and added further analysis of it, and this is this is your response? And the notion that Maul/Savage apparently didn't learn from their mistakes is assuming that they had another fight with Kenobi in the exact same type of environment - this is obviously false, but it didn't happen. You've not addressed anything that I've said, I don't want to spend several pages repeating myself, so we'll have to agree to disagree. The key quote here: "added my further analysis".

Just because you want to make excuses as to why Kenobi was doing really well against Maul and Savage don't mean we have to accept it we accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi out manned still managed to hold his own and you could even argue had the advantage the 2nd time they met.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Son of Dathomir comics exist in Legends to, not just Canon. It exists in both continuities, so it's usable for both Legends and Canon debates.

Yes it shows that Maul is leagues above Aayla, what's bad about being leagues above Aayla? And Maul wasn't just merely multitasking, he was multitasking when fighting Mace mother****ing Windu whilst dealing with Aayla at the same time, and this speaks volumes of Maul's refined skill set because Juyo, his main form, isn't designed for multiple opponents, Maul's feat of contending with Mace whilst dealing with another Jedi at the same time shows us that Maul is a great and masterful swordsman.

Comic panels are static images though, I could also argue that Maul is parrying a strike from Mace, and even if Maul is attacking and Mace is blocking Maul's strike, that doesn't render it less impressive. I'm not trying to use the feat to scale off anything, so you're strawmanning me. Maul clashed blades with Sidious indeed... Whilst having help from Savage Opress, whilst fighting a Sidious who was trolling them given how he is almost constantly laughing his ass off, and in the Shadow Conspiracy novelised version of the fight, Sidious ramps up his speed at the end and becomes far too fast for Maul to percieve, which implies that Sidious only starts getting serious in the end of the fight, which is when Maul is rage amped over Savage's death.

Thought this was a canon debate? And what's your point then? Because my point is it really isn't useful for a debate, if that feat wasn't there then it wouldn't change anything.

At the end of the day all Maul does is swing his blade at maul and then kick Aayla from behind. It being Mace Windu changes little because it's only ONE swing.

Grievous could swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time as well. I'm sure Ventress could also swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time.

Yes, you are correct about Sidious, the point is lesser opponents are capable of BRIEFELY fighting way stronger opponents. So this does not mean Mace is close to Maul if that's what you're trying to imply, which is the only way I see this being Mauls 'best feat'.

Although I feel we are just arguing semantics now, and if you think that I'm strawmanning you then that's not my intention. I just don't see how this is a note worthy feat in the circumstances of a 1v1 debate.

Also, no one is denying Maul is a great swordsmen?

Also I'm curious to what people think of Asajj straight up knocking out Kenobi while she's fighting Anakin as well. Now I see that as impressive as Kenobi should be a similar level as Asajj, and maybe it could've been over for Kenobi if Anakin wasn't there?

Originally posted by Scizard
Also I'm curious to what people think of Asajj straight up knocking out Kenobi while she's fighting Anakin as well. Now I see that as impressive as Kenobi should be a similar level as Asajj, and maybe it could've been over for Kenobi if Anakin wasn't there? When did this happen? Not sure I remember that but it sounds pretty legit to me.

https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152

Originally posted by Scizard
https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152 That looks legit to me she even appeared to be somewhat injured because she was holding her side when she got out of the wreckage.

Savage seems superior to Assaj though in their encounters and duels... Obviously Maul is better than savage though, i reckon edge to Maul ..

Originally posted by Scizard
Thought this was a canon debate? And what's your point then? Because my point is it really isn't useful for a debate, if that feat wasn't there then it wouldn't change anything.

At the end of the day all Maul does is swing his blade at maul and then kick Aayla from behind. It being Mace Windu changes little because it's only ONE swing.

Grievous could swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time as well. I'm sure Ventress could also swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time.

Yes, you are correct about Sidious, the point is lesser opponents are capable of BRIEFELY fighting way stronger opponents. So this does not mean Mace is close to Maul if that's what you're trying to imply, which is the only way I see this being Mauls 'best feat'.

Although I feel we are just arguing semantics now, and if you think that I'm strawmanning you then that's not my intention. I just don't see how this is a note worthy feat in the circumstances of a 1v1 debate.

Also, no one is denying Maul is a great swordsmen?

The OP didn't specify if this is Legends, Canon, or both. My point is that SoD can be used for any Canon or Legends debates because it exists in both continuities. And the feat itself is absolutely usable for debating purposes, I'm tired of explaining this and I'm tired of you handwaving it as nothing more than "Maul only exchanged ONE blow with Mace whilst kicking Aayla" because this is assuming that's all they did, which is absolutely incorrect because there's the concept of an off panel fight, all we know is that Maul fights Mace and Aayla at the same time, and the most significant thing that happens is that Maul kicks Aayla whilst fending off Mace, which is why it was shown on panel, the writers don't have the resources to show fights in their entirety.

You're arguing that Grievous and Ventress can replicate this performance in the same timeline to trivialise the feat, but did that happen? No it didn't, so you're just using the "Oh I'm sure these guys can also do that" card to trivialise Maul's feat. No I'm not arguing that Mace and Maul are near equals, there's no evidence for that, but they don't need to be near equals for this to be Maul's best feat.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
The key quote here: "added my further analysis".

Just because you want to make excuses as to why Kenobi was doing really well against Maul and Savage don't mean we have to accept it we accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi out manned still managed to hold his own and you could even argue had the advantage the 2nd time they met.


I wrote this analysis to explain why Maul and Savage were initially startled by Obi-Wan's aggression, and I find it amusing that you completely brushed it off and decided to lecture me.

Just because you don't want to accept the in-universe ramifications for why Kenobi doing really well against Maul and Savage doesn't mean that we have to bow down to your personal incredility. We accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi, outnumbered, holding his own against the Zabrack brothers in the cave, but additional sources that go into further detail that the on screen episodes themselves can't spell out, tell us more.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
The OP didn't specify if this is Legends, Canon, or both. My point is that SoD can be used for any Canon or Legends debates because it exists in both continuities. And the feat itself is absolutely usable for debating purposes, I'm tired of explaining this and I'm tired of you handwaving it as nothing more than "Maul only exchanged ONE blow with Mace whilst kicking Aayla" because this is assuming that's all they did, which is absolutely incorrect because there's the concept of an off panel fight, all we know is that Maul fights Mace and Aayla at the same time, and the most significant thing that happens is that Maul kicks Aayla whilst fending off Mace, which is why it was shown on panel, the writers don't have the resources to show fights in their entirety.

You're arguing that Grievous and Ventress can replicate this performance in the same timeline to trivialise the feat, but did that happen? No it didn't, so you're just using the "Oh I'm sure these guys can also do that" card to trivialise Maul's feat. No I'm not arguing that Mace and Maul are near equals, there's no evidence for that, but they don't need to be near equals for this to be Maul's best feat.

I already understand that the fight COULD be longer, however Aayla still could've been kicked in the first seconds of the fight. This is what you're not understanding, briefely fighting someone does not prove anything, and you cannot prove this was anything longer than a brief fight. Sure comic pannels can be longer but that doesn't mean that this was nesscearily a long or even medium sized fight. The only thing you can say is that this fight is probably longer than one kick from Maul and one parry/block from Mace. Anything else and you're making assumptions.

And I still don't see how this is a feat you can use in a 1v1 debate here. It's not going to prove anything, ok Maul fought Aayla and Mace for like two seconds? Stop trying to say it's anything more than that. It could be, but it could also only be two seconds and if it was longer, it also could be Mace Windu kicking Mauls ass for 60 seconds. It's not useful at all because there's too many variables.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I wrote this analysis to explain why Maul and Savage were initially startled by Obi-Wan's aggression, and I find it amusing that you completely brushed it off and decided to lecture me.

Just because you don't want to accept the in-universe ramifications for why Kenobi doing really well against Maul and Savage doesn't mean that we have to bow down to your personal incredility. We accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi, outnumbered, holding his own against the Zabrack brothers in the cave, but additional sources that go into further detail that the on screen episodes themselves can't spell out, tell us more. You are once again making stuff up without backing it up. Maul didn't seem to have any issues with Kenobi in the tight quarters in their first fight on the ship that was in itself tight quarters.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You are once again making stuff up without backing it up. Maul didn't seem to have any issues with Kenobi in the tight quarters in their first fight on the ship that was in itself tight quarters.

In other words, this is just a contrived repetition of "NOPE, NOPE, YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT!!" whilst not understanding what I am saying.

Oh and when Maul and Kenobi's fight on the cargo ship, on Florrum, was actually a lot wider and more spacious than the cave, so you're incorrect.

Originally posted by Scizard
I already understand that the fight COULD be longer, however Aayla still could've been kicked in the first seconds of the fight. This is what you're not understanding, briefely fighting someone does not prove anything, and you cannot prove this was anything longer than a brief fight. Sure comic pannels can be longer but that doesn't mean that this was nesscearily a long or even medium sized fight. The only thing you can say is that this fight is probably longer than one kick from Maul and one parry/block from Mace. Anything else and you're making assumptions.

And I still don't see how this is a feat you can use in a 1v1 debate here. It's not going to prove anything, ok Maul fought Aayla and Mace for like two seconds? Stop trying to say it's anything more than that. It could be, but it could also only be two seconds and if it was longer, it also could be Mace Windu kicking Mauls ass for 60 seconds. It's not useful at all because there's too many variables.

OK, at least we've made some progress. Maul and Windu & Secura's fight is longer than it would appear (i.e. 2 seconds), but honestly, even a 10-20 second fight is still something to consider. I've not been trying to insert anything into the fight, because all we actually saw was Maul kicking Aayla whilst either attacking Mace or defending himself from Mace. The thing that I was trying to emphasise that it's not a 2 second fight. I think it was a 10 second fight, maybe 20 seconds, perhaps even 30 seconds, but either of that is good enough for me. If you don't think a 10-30 seconds fight is good enough, then we just have different methodology, so we'll just need to agree to disagree. You are mistaken if you are thinking that I was trying to add something what happened off panel. Indeed we don't know what happened off panel, all we know is that they fought off panel AND on pannel, but did I make a claim about what happened off panel, besides that they fought off panel? No.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
OK, at least we've made some progress. Maul and Windu & Secura's fight is longer than it would appear (i.e. 2 seconds), but honestly, even a 10-20 second fight is still something to consider. I've not been trying to insert anything into the fight, because all we actually saw was Maul kicking Aayla whilst either attacking Mace or defending himself from Mace. The thing that I was trying to emphasise that it's not a 2 second fight. I think it was a 10 second fight, maybe 20 seconds, perhaps even 30 seconds, but either of that is good enough for me. If you don't think a 10-30 seconds fight is good enough, then we just have different methodology, so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Okay.

Originally posted by Scizard
https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152

Maul > Savage >= Ventress > Ventress injured > Anakin and Obi-Wan > Dooku confirmed

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
In other words, this is just a contrived repetition of "NOPE, NOPE, YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT!!" whilst not understanding what I am saying.

Oh and when Maul and Kenobi's fight on the cargo ship, on Florrum, was actually a lot wider and more spacious than the cave, so you're incorrect. You are making stuff up there is no way to sugar coat it.

Both fights they were in close quarters and you cannot deny that. Also, in the first fight they were fighting in such close quarters their sabers were hitting things around them during the fight. LOL.

Originally posted by McP
Maul > Savage >= Ventress > Ventress injured > Anakin and Obi-Wan > Dooku confirmed

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You are making stuff up there is no way to sugar coat it.

Both fights they were in close quarters and you cannot deny that. Also, in the first fight they were fighting in such close quarters their sabers were hitting things around them during the fight. LOL.

I'm not making anything up though, so quit spouting.

Both fights were in different types of environments and you cannot deny. In Maul's 1v1 with Kenobi on Florrum, they spent quite a lot of that fight fighting on the ground, before even fighting on the ship, which was much wide than the tunnel/cave that the fought in, and since when did the lightsabers hit anything in that 1v1?

Good fighters make adjustments so quit making fairy tales.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Good fighters make adjustments so quit making fairy tales.

Not every good fighter can whist their fighting styles to every environment in SW, especially ones who use Juyo, which is Maul's primary form, because no one is invincible. You've just been appealing to your own personal incredulity for this entire conversation.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Not every good fighter can whist their fighting styles to every environment in SW, especially ones who use Juyo, which is Maul's primary form, because no one is invincible. You've just been appealing to your own personal incredulity for this entire conversation. You're basing the fact that Savage and Maul weren't do so well against Kenobi on hopes and dreams and fairy tales. Basically you making stuff up to fit what you wanted to happen.

You're claiming they were fighting in too close of quarters but in fact both fights were in close quarters and as I said previously in the first fight the space was so limited their sabers were cutting the walls around them which in fact was closer than when they were fighting in the cave.

A skilled fighter worth a damm has the ability to adjust their style if need be.

Moral of the story? Stop making sh!t up and expect people to have to accept it, if you want that's fine.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You're basing the fact that Savage and Maul weren't do so well against Kenobi on hopes and dreams and fairy tales. Basically you making stuff up to fit what you wanted to happen.

I'm not making anything thing up, I honestly find it incredibly ironic that you're handwaving my arguments as "hopes and dreams and fairy tales" and that I am "making stuff up to fit" what I wanted to happen, and yet you're the one who is gloating, being incredulous, high and mighty whilst not actually offering a proper rebuttal. I'm basing it on logical inference and I also have an LFL source backing me up:



Granted, this quote is a bit simplified, but it is still correct in priniciple i.e. the environment is a disadvantage for Maul and Savage, and it's an LFL source that still fundamentally backs up my argument in that Maul and Savage's movements were limited the cave. An official Lucasfilm licensed source >>>> your personal incredility. Keep in mind that the quote itself puts emphasis on Maul and Savage being at the disadvantage rather than Kenobi. Even when watching the actual Episode itself, Maul and Savage it's really obvious Maul and Savage were weakened by the environment Because Kenobi specifically chose that environment, at first he's literally running away from them, but stops around the corner of the end to fight them there:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5607306-1.gif

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5607307-2.gif

This is typical of Kenobi because he is a tactical mastermind who's an expert with the use of tactical ingenuity and using the environment to gain a tactical advantage in the form of Sokan.

similar to Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin on Mustafar, where he used the environment to gain a tactical advantage against Anakin who was consumed by uncontrolled rage i.e. the high ground. He's also used it against Ventress in a Clone Wars Comic, saying:



https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5684966-8094721815-NrQ5gaCJeocE7KXMnhY1PhTyIr_LliTCEgHBuH-ISX3-ziirRQ05J8Xhseqj0AlgeThgYSetbglH%3Ds0

Sokan is all about using the environment to gain a tactical advantage. He specifically chose the environment to fight Maul and Savage, which inferably and explicitly stated to have been a disadvantage for them, note that Maul and Savage are much taller, wider and larger combatants than Obi-Wan. In fact when looking closely at Maul's size, he's actually taller than Savage Opress (who is an absolute juggarnaut in size) because of his long Cybernetic legs, whereas Obi-Wan is shorter and and slimmer in size than both Maul and Savage. Obi-Wan was still able to perform several acrobatic movements nand leaps whilst using two lightsabers, whereas all what Savage is able to do is leap back ONCE, and Maul doesn't, which is very telling of how restrictive the environment is for them because keep in mind that Maul is a very energetic and fast paced duelist who is notorious for being acrobatic, in many ways embodying the prequel trilogy era of lightsaber combat, and he doesn't perform a single acrobatic movement in this fight. Moreover, Maul's main form, Juyo, is a kinetic fighting style:



Form VII, which is what Maul uses, is open and kinetic, meaning that it is involves and produces a lot of movements, it's not suitable for narrow environments. Here in this fight, he has little-to-no room for maneuverability, especially due to his clunky cybernetic legs.

As for Savage, let's not forget that he's a saberstaff wielder, the saberstaff itself involves a lot wide movement arcs to be utilized most effectively. Next:



No, I never said they were fighting in too close quarters, I said that they were fighting in an a cave, an environment that limited Maul and Savage's movements, which is reinforced by an official lucasfilm licensed source. Show me where Maul and Obi-Wan's lightsabers were cutting walls around them in their 1v1 in that Revival episode.



Bro, a skilled fighter can try adjusting their fighting style to a narrow environment, but said narrow environment will still give them less options, for example, even senate pods were a disadvantage for even guys Yoda and Sidious:



They fought on senate pods that provided little room for maneuvering, note that the text doesn't impose any limitations to Yoda and Sidious, rather than one of them, so it was a problem for both of them. The senate pods were so cramped that it restricted their movements, so they have less options. If I fight in an environment that gives little room for me to maneuver, then I have less options regardless of how well i adjust my tactics, because on open and wide ground, I can use tactics that kinetic.



There is no moral of the story, I'm not making any shit up and I'm getting fed up of you patronising me. If you still don't believe me, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, how about that?

You just wasted a bunch of bandwidth for nothing you are still grasping at straws man.

And no I can't agree to disagree when you are clearly wrong.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You just wasted a bunch of bandwidth for nothing you are still grasping at straws man.

And no I can't agree to disagree when you are clearly wrong.

10/10 rebuttal 👏

not sure

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
10/10 rebuttal 👏
-> Quotes a early draft of the script that says the fight is narrow with both brothers on one side
-> Actual finalized episode has the two brothers on opposite sides f Kenobi with Kenobi fighting far more acrobatically than either
-> "Correct in principle"
No it's not. It's completely contradicted by actual canon, iow, it's been retconned.

But if you want t use that script, you should remember that, the script has kenobi having an upperhand on maul in their 1v1, and has him breaking both kenobi and oppress's telekinetic defense simulteously.

However you cut it, the dude who survived anakin is a better fighter than the one who got ran out of his palace by ahsoka.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
10/10 rebuttal 👏 I don't need to write a novel to prove that you are wrong I did it with several sentences.

You're assuming everything and expecting others to buy it. Close quarters was a factor in both fights and more so in the first.

Common sense.