Sidious vs Vader (Details)

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Scizard
In the new canon it seems quite clear that Disney has given Vader a significant 'buff' we see he's regarded as "the most powerful sith lord", the best red lightsaber duelist and his armour now makes him far stronger than weaker. But for the story this doesn't entirely make sense.

What argument would you make for (ROTS-ROTJ) Palpatine > Vader?

McP
Shitsney canno't change the movies that are already done. And they are still basing on Lucas' vision. Vader still needs Luke to overthrow the Emperor, Vader still has shitty feats compared to the Emperor, even in Rebels it seems that unlike Vader, Palpatine is still somehow untouchable.

Galan007
Originally posted by Scizard
What argument would you make for (ROTS-ROTJ) Palpatine > Vader? The most I would ever argue is that Vader's TK(and possibly saber skill) might approach Palpatine's level. Aside from that, Palpatine is superior across the board by virtue of possessing a far greater depth of power/knowledge than Vader ever displayed.

McP
^
Vader lacks feats in duels in terms of TK. Even Maul has superior feats at that point.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by McP
^
Even Maul has superior feats at that point.


By Force shoving Rebels Ahsoka he scales above Maul in that arena.

McP
^
Because he's canonicaly superior, yes. I've never said otherwise. But if we consider feats only, then Maul choked Obi-Wan once, catch him by TK another time and Force push him at least once.

Vader has a great TK feats as long as he's not fighting a strong enemy. To be honest, Sidious display of TK during his duel with Savage and Maul is above all of Vader's best feats against all of Force-users combined.

Dooku has superior feats in-battle to Vader as well. By far. And I'm not saying that Dooku is more powerful.

Scizard
Still pretty sure TK power stays the same throughout, I don't see a reason to believe otherwise. If Maul/Dooku can do something Vader's also capable of doing the same. I would bet on Vader being able to ragdoll Maul in the exact same way if he chose to do so.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by McP
^
Because he's canonicaly superior, yes. I've never said otherwise. But if we consider feats only, then Maul choked Obi-Wan once, catch him by TK another time and Force push him at least once.

Vader has a great TK feats as long as he's not fighting a strong enemy. To be honest, Sidious display of TK during his duel with Savage and Maul is above all of Vader's best feats against all of Force-users combined.

Dooku has superior feats in-battle to Vader as well. By far. And I'm not saying that Dooku is more powerful.


Well Maul always did that to Obi-Wan circumstancially (aside from TPM).

But yeah I suppose Dooku TKing Obi-Wan is still better, but just pointing out what Vader did to Ahsoka is above anything Maul has done to someone that good in a fair 1 v 1.

As for Dooku, I honestly think Vader would be a nightmare opponent for him. Between his physical might and ridiculous raw TK, I dont see Dooku doing well. But yes I agree chances of Vader force choking Dooku mid Saber fight isnt very high.

McP
^
I'm not that sure. Vader overhelmed Ahsoka in a saber duel to a degree, when she was barely holding her own. Then he managed to Force push her. It's rather easy to imagine, that he coulnd't just Force push her. Just as she needed to find opening at the beginning of the fight and Force pushed him in counter to his missed saber slash.

Just like Dooku; he needed to find that opening In Kenobi's guard, he overhelmed him and Anakin in a saber lock, thrown them off balance, which was enough to find that opening.

Maul find opening in Kenobi's guard as well, but it was easier as Kenobi had to split his attention to Maul and Savage.

As for Vader TK: he did to Ezra something similar that Dooku and Yoda did to Ventress. Yoda TKed her, disarmed her without any difficulty. She as well could be on youngling level, that would change nothing.
Sidious did something similar to Maul and Savage, but he did that rather by suprise. Wasn't that clear as Yoda's showing, but well, Savage and especially Maul are above Ventress in the Force overall.
Dooku was capable to subdue Ventress by TK hold as well, but short before he overhelmed her in saber duel to the level when she barely was holding her own.

Anyway, Vader did that to Ezra. To Ezra. And he Force pushed Ahsoka after overhelming her. Not TK hold or choke her.

Still, compering Vader's showings on neutral ocasions and his hype to his showings against Force users on decent level, he is just... medicore.

Darth Thor
^ Yes but his Force push on Ahsoka sent her flying. Whereas Ahsokas force push on Vader just forced him back a little, but he stood his ground. Thats the difference.

But yeah it usually happens after gaining an advantage in a Saber fight. An instantaneous ragdoll like Sidious did to Maul and Savage is rare. And I admit Vader hasnt proven himself on that level yet. But given his feats, he should be close to that level.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Galan007
The most I would ever argue is that Vader's TK(and possibly saber skill) might approach Palpatine's level. Aside from that, Palpatine is superior across the board by virtue of possessing a far greater depth of power/knowledge than Vader ever displayed.

Well TK and sabers have always been Vader's bread and butter.

Though honestly I don't get why some see this Vader as different from before, maybe it's just because more people are able to read the newer stuff as it comes out and is more mainstream popular?

But eh, there is still the issue that Vader wanted Luke to join him and said he could destroy the Emperor and would complete his training and with their combined strength would bring order to the galaxy.

McP
@Darth Thor

Well, at that point i wouldn't say that it was that impressive. Yes, he has shown a greater raw power in TK to her, but was it that strong? Could be about two meters as well, but she was at the edge and she fell from that. Perhaps that is what makes it look far worse. Anyway, Ahsoka was barely defending herself and Vader had a clear TK strike, while Ahsoka just found a very small opening. Vader was in better position, but mostly due to being superior combatant overall and better fencer.
Still, Maul's Force push against Kenobi was far more impressvie in my opinion.

And, basing on a "in-battle" feats, I really don't see Vader to be anywhere close to Palpatine. And to be clear: I'm not saying that Vader ins't close to him. His feats "in-battle" just doesn't suggest that at all. Only that.

Darth Thor
^ Its easy to say that only happened because Ahsoka was on the edge, but fact is that kind of fall doesnt do much to Jedi. They can easily land. So she was obviously thrown out of control.

Point taken about In Battle TK.

Galan007
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well TK and sabers have always been Vader's bread and butter.

Though honestly I don't get why some see this Vader as different from before, maybe it's just because more people are able to read the newer stuff as it comes out and is more mainstream popular?

But eh, there is still the issue that Vader wanted Luke to join him and said he could destroy the Emperor and would complete his training and with their combined strength would bring order to the galaxy. I think it's more that canon hasn't really emphasized a huge difference between Palpatine and Vader in those departments, nor have their been any references to the suit hindering Vader's power/skill at all. If anything, he improved in the years between RotS and RotJ.

Oh yeah, Palpatine is still much more powerful than Vader overall. Raw TK and sabers are the only areas where you might argue that they would be close, but Sheev should still have the advantage.

Darth Thor
Nothing about the suit hindering him, but his injuries obviously still hindered his potential, otherwise he would have been much more powerful than the Emperor by the OT.

That said, even in terms of actualised power, I doubt Vader > Peak ROTS Anakin. But his TK control and mastery has clearly vastly improved.

Scizard
Last time I asked you why you thought Vader > Peak ROTS Anakin you never answered.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Scizard
Last time I asked you why you thought Vader > Peak ROTS Anakin you never answered.


Me? I dont recall, but never really believed that.

At best I see OT Vader being approx on par with Peak ROTS Anakin.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nothing about the suit hindering him, but his injuries obviously still hindered his potential, otherwise he would have been much more powerful than the Emperor by the OT. Vader's potential was still there -- his injuries didn't affect that.

However, it was implied that Palpatine was hoarding knowledge for himself, instead of sharing it with Vader to help him reach his potential.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007
Vader's potential was still there -- his injuries didn't affect that.



They did according to Lucas. Ive not seen Disney outright contradict that yet. Im sure the databank says somewhere that Palpatine knew that as soon as he was injured but will have it find it.

But suffice to say, Vader should have surpassed both Yoda and Palpatine. But doesnt seem like he was ever truly on or with either of them.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Im sure the databank says somewhere that Palpatine knew that as soon as he was injured but will have it find it.


Doesnt seem to be on the databank anymore, so may be retconned.

Scizard
Apologies I meant why you thought ROTS Anakin > Vader ROTJ

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
They did according to Lucas. Ive not seen Disney outright contradict that yet. Im sure the databank says somewhere that Palpatine knew that as soon as he was injured but will have it find it.

But suffice to say, Vader should have surpassed both Yoda and Palpatine. But doesnt seem like he was ever truly on or with either of them. GL's comments regarding Vader being weaker after Mustafar are no longer canon.

Per canon, Vader's injuries only bolstered his power:



And Paul Kemp(writer of Lords of the Sith) spoke a bit on Vader's potential:
https://i.imgur.com/KEXldVQ.jpg
-Insider 157


Also:
https://i.imgur.com/7eyHCOP.jpg
-Rebels Visual Guide: Epic Battles



So yeah, the notion that Vader's injuries weakened him no longer applies.


As mentioned, his potential was still there, but the implication is that Palpatine was only giving him just enough teachings/knowledge to keep him subservient and wanting more:
https://i.imgur.com/z4ek7aP.jpg
-Insider #157


Even Lord Momin mused that Palpatine was hoarding knowledge for himself:
https://i.imgur.com/sbCKPyK.jpg
-Darth Vader v2 #24



...Which is why he never transcended Palpatine.

Zenwolf
His injuries never weakened him before, his potential was lost, that could count as being weakened. But then I'm just looking at this from a different angle, since a lot of the new stuff just seems to retread from older stuff.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007
GL's comments regarding Vader being weaker after Mustafar are no longer canon.

Per canon, Vader's injuries only bolstered his power:



And Paul Kemp(writer of Lords of the Sith) spoke a bit on Vader's potential:
https://i.imgur.com/KEXldVQ.jpg
-Insider 157


Also:
https://i.imgur.com/7eyHCOP.jpg
-Rebels Visual Guide: Epic Battles



So yeah, the notion that Vader's injuries weakened him no longer applies.


As mentioned, his potential was still there, but the implication is that Palpatine was only giving him just enough teachings/knowledge to keep him subservient and wanting more:
https://i.imgur.com/z4ek7aP.jpg
-Insider #157


Even Lord Momin mused that Palpatine was hoarding knowledge for himself:
https://i.imgur.com/sbCKPyK.jpg
-Darth Vader v2 #24



...Which is why he never transcended Palpatine.


Ah okay. Well thats Disney Canon then.

Not sure how I feel about them retconning Lucas story. I mean sure no need to make him a slow robot man. But the idea that Vader lost potential which Luke still had was an important part of Lucas commentary of the OT.



Originally posted by Scizard
Apologies I meant why you thought ROTS Anakin > Vader ROTJ


Well aside from Vaders ridiculous TK feats on inanimate objects, in battle against Jedi/Sith I just find overpowering Dooku to that extent more impressive than overpowering Ahsoka, or slowly beating Old Ben.

Not that Ahsoka or Ben are weak. But Dooku level? Perhaps Old Ben is, but Anakins overpowering of Dooku was still more impressive Imho.

Scizard
I would agree that Anakin's feat against Dooku is more impressive than Suited Vader's feats but I just considered it as that's a feat for Vader as well since sources indicate that he got stronger.

Basically how I see it is if Anakin can do it Vader can do it as well.

Galan007
Originally posted by Zenwolf
His injuries never weakened him before, his potential was lost, that could count as being weakened. But then I'm just looking at this from a different angle, since a lot of the new stuff just seems to retread from older stuff. Right, but in Legends Vader's potential was gimped(like you said), which prevented him from ever being able to reach his true power. He was capped at 80% of Palpatine, iirc.

But in canon, Vader's potential was still there. The implication is that he never realized his full potential because Palpatine was only feeding him just enough knowledge to keep him on his side, but not enough for Vader to transcend him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah okay. Well thats Disney Canon then.

Not sure how I feel about them retconning Lucas story. I mean sure no need to make him a slow robot man. But the idea that Vader lost potential which Luke still had was an important part of Lucas commentary of the OT. I normally don't appreciate when Lucas' original intent is f*cked with... But in Vader's case, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. He is one of the only characters that Disney hasn't wrecked... They've actually put him on a massive pedestal.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Scizard
I would agree that Anakin's feat against Dooku is more impressive than Suited Vader's feats but I just considered it as that's a feat for Vader as well since sources indicate that he got stronger.

Basically how I see it is if Anakin can do it Vader can do it as well.


Well thats according to Vader mind you. The same guy who told Kenobi not to underestimate his power before doing a move he clearly couldnt pull off.

I see Vader and Anakin about on par. But with Anakins peak state probably being superior, whereas Vader being better in terms of consistency. I.e. Vader wouldnt stalemate ROTS Kenobi in a force contest and wouldnt be kicked on to his butt by Dooku.

But My point is ive not seen anything from Vader to put him above Peak Anakin level.



Originally posted by Galan007

I normally don't appreciate when Lucas' original intent is f*cked with... But in Vader's case, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. He is one of the only characters that Disney hasn't wrecked... They've actually put him on a massive pedestal.


Doesnt have to be either/or though. Fact is Vader was still < Palpatine in the OT. So likely < Yoda as well. And still needed Luke to overthrow Sidious. And keeping him within that margin doesnt give him much room for improvement since ROTS.

So can make him as powerful as they want up to that point, but still keep to the explanation that hes not the Mortis level entity he was capable of being due to his injuries.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Doesnt have to be either/or though. Fact is Vader was still < Palpatine in the OT. So likely < Yoda as well. And still needed Luke to overthrow Sidious. And keeping him within that margin doesnt give him much room for improvement since ROTS. Well I mean, Palpatine also logically improved quite a bit after RotS, given the knowledge-hoarding he was doing.

So assuming that Vader kept pace with Palpatine during the OT(and we have no clear reason to assume he didn't), then I suppose you could make an argument that Vader may have surpassed the level of RotS Palpatine(and therefore Yoda) by the time of RotJ.

Canon hasn't really indicated that there was ever a massive discrepancy between Vader and Palpatine in terms of raw power. Palpatine would ultimately beat him, but I doubt the battle would be nearly as one-sided as most would be inclined to think. For all we know, canon Vader could have been 99.9% of Palpatine, but needed Luke's help to given him that extra push and clear advantage.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So can make him as powerful as they want up to that point, but still keep to the explanation that hes not the Mortis level entity he was capable of being due to his injuries. But again: Vader's injuries didn't hinder him at all. His potential never diminished in canon.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007

But again: Vader's injuries didn't hinder him at all. His potential never diminished in canon.


I get what canon says. Im saying its silly given how little he progressed from ROTS to the OT. And contradicts Lucas commentary on a Huge plot point of the OT.

Scizard
In telekenetic feats Vader improved greatly. Sabers pretty much impossible to tell since he doesn't face an adversaries above his ROTS self. You can't say he didn't progress much since we don't know how much he progressed.

You could also argue that he didn't progress much because he was not fighting powerful adversaries. During the Clone Wars he constantly fought Count Dooku who is a very similar level to Anakin during its end, meaning he was able to progress faster.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I get what canon says. Im saying its silly given how little he progressed from ROTS to the OT. And contradicts Lucas commentary on a Huge plot point of the OT. I see what you're saying.

Originally posted by Scizard
You could also argue that he didn't progress much because he was not fighting powerful adversaries. During the Clone Wars he constantly fought Count Dooku who is a very similar level to Anakin during its end, meaning he was able to progress faster. I think Anakin and Dooku only fought like 4 or 5 times during the entirety of TCW(counting the movie), and a few of those weren't even prolonged battles. I always felt like Anakin's power-creep between AotC and RotS had more to do with him just always being engaged in standard battles and whatnot, which allowed him to hone in his power/skill. Obviously fighting the likes of Dooku and Asajj from time to time wouldn't have hurt either, but you get what I'm saying.

And as we've seen in Rebels, along with the comics and novels, Vader was constantly involved in battles/warfare during the 20+ year period between RotS and ESB(and many of those he fought over this time were exceptionally skilled/dangerous) -- and he was also training the Inquisitorius on the side. So it's not like his saber skills would have diminished due to a lack of practice, imo.

Scizard
I don't think his skills would have diminished. Just that fighting adversaries of higher skill would give him more opportunity to learn. When Vader fights most of his opponents, he doesn't even have to try, and would gain little knowledge/experience from the fight.

Whereas Anakin was constantly fighting one of the best duelists. I think duelling high skill opponents would be what would improve your duelling abillity the most, although I would say that just general combat and using force augmentation, etc would allow you to hone your overall skill.

And by the end of ROTS Anakin has fought Dooku what seven times? Along with ventress a few times. Overall my point is that you can make sense of Anakin progressing a lot faster than Vader.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Scizard
In telekenetic feats Vader improved greatly. Sabers pretty much impossible to tell since he doesn't face an adversaries above his ROTS self. You can't say he didn't progress much since we don't know how much he progressed.



I mean Anakin was already considerably stronger than Dooku (at his peak). So given Vader didnt surpass Palpatine (or presumably Yoda), that really doesnt leave much room for improvement over 20 years.

And its not like he was ragdolling Ahsoka or Ben Kenobi, and realistically how far can we scale them up? Is Ahsoka on Dookus level? Ben on Yodas?

More likely Ben is on Dookus level. Even if hes a little above Dooku, that still doesnt put Vader much above Peak Anakin, if at all.

Now I do believe Vader improved on Anakin in terms of consistency and control, hence the improved use of TK. But overall there doesnt seem to be a much of a change in terms of where we place him in comparison to other characters.

Galan007
Originally posted by Scizard
I don't think his skills would have diminished. Just that fighting adversaries of higher skill would give him more opportunity to learn. When Vader fights most of his opponents, he doesn't even have to try, and would gain little knowledge/experience from the fight.

Whereas Anakin was constantly fighting one of the best duelists. I think duelling high skill opponents would be what would improve your duelling abillity the most, although I would say that just general combat and using force augmentation, etc would allow you to hone your overall skill.

And by the end of ROTS Anakin has fought Dooku what seven times? Along with ventress a few times. Overall my point is that you can make sense of Anakin progressing a lot faster than Vader. I mentioned it above, but I'm pretty sure Anakin and Dooku only fought like 4 or 5 times during TCW, and a few of those weren't even prolonged battles. While I do agree that fighting the likes of Dooku and Asajj would've helped Anakin improve, you still have to chalk his power-creep up to more than *just* his fights with them, considering that he likely went months at a time(on average) without ever directly encountering them... Which is why I think that much of his growth throughout TCW can be credited to constantly fighting in the standard battles and whatnot, which further honed his power/skill. Also keep in mind that his growth took place over a period of only 3 years.

That being said, Vader was also constantly engaged in battles in the time between RotS and ANH/ESB, and many of which were against very powerful/dangerous opposition(like Kirak, Koth, the Grysk, Momin, etc.) Difference is that following the events of RotS, Vader's connection to the Force was stronger than ever, and by ESB he'd been at it for over 20 years. We know Vader's raw power with the Force was superior to Anakin's, but logically speaking, his saber skill should have been as well.

Forschbewithu
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Doesnt seem to be on the databank anymore, so may be retconned.

It was not retconned. You have to go to "Darth Sidious' biography gallery." I thought it was gone too, but I looked under "Palatine's biography gallery." There are two different ones.

As usual, we have conflicting information in star wars. How powerful is Darth Vader truly? Did he lose his potential? Keep it? Is he more powerful than his Jedi self? Depends on which canon material you read 🙁.

Scizard
^
So why do you think Vader's progression was seemingly slowed or are you not of that opinion?

Regarding his fights with Dooku I was counting every single fight, that lasts longer than a couple of clashes. So AOTC, CW Movie, Naboo, Naboo, Obi Dah, Dark Disciple, ROTS. So yes 4 times during the series/movie. 7 in total.

@Darth Thor - I don't see any reason to believe that Anakin was considerably stronger than Dooku. He only bests Dooku after he expends his energy on Kenobi. So I don't see a significant gap. Plus we're unaware of the gap between Dooku-Palpatine/Yoda and there's a source implying that Vader is a better duelist than Palpatine, atleast technically.

There's no reason for Vader to have diminished therefore at the very least Vader must be an equal to ROTS Anakin, though it's more likely he's quite a bit above him. We have no clue how strong Ahsoka is in the force so you can't diminish
Vader from that, same goes with Ben Kenobi like Vader he had 20 extra years to practice his force abillities I'm sure he was a lot stronger.

It's noted that Vader was specificly being cautious in regards to fighting Kenobi so you cannot say they're near equals in their fight. Especially considering Kenobi basically suicides. For all Kenobi knew Vader could've just dragged Luke towards him if he actually cared at that point in time, Kenobi would've held off Vader longer if he was actually able to.

Palpatine was only able to ragdoll Maul in the fight when he sat down out of breath. Palpatine could've literally swung at him with his lightsaber and I doubt Maul would've even been able to dodge it. His energy was completely diminished.

Vader is stronger in the force and stronger physically, he's also got two decades more experience and sources implying he's > Palpatine. Not that I believe that is entirely true, it's still telling.

There's no middle ground for Vader to fight in between Dooku and Sidious. He believed he wasn't ready to fight Sidious on his own so that's out of the question. Yoda is in hiding. You can't see the change because there's no one to scale off of other than Anakin. Which he seems to be above.

Galan007
Originally posted by Forschbewithu
It was not retconned. You have to go to "Darth Sidious' biography gallery." I thought it was gone too, but I looked under "Palatine's biography gallery." There are two different ones. I'm not seeing it in Palpatine's bio. You have a link?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Scizard


@Darth Thor - I don't see any reason to believe that Anakin was considerably stronger than Dooku. He only bests Dooku after he expends his energy on Kenobi. So I don't see a significant gap. Plus we're unaware of the gap between Dooku-Palpatine/Yoda and there's a source implying that Vader is a better duelist than Palpatine, atleast technically.


No Anakin was considerably above Dooku. The source which says Dooku expended energy on defeating Kenobi is the novelisation which also makes it clear that Dooku replenished his reserves, and that blocking every strike against Anakin took more energy than defeating Obi-Wan.

There is a noticeable gap between Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda. Yes. But like I said Anakin was already considerably stronger than Dooku. So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement for the Chosen One with an unrivalled midichlorian count over a whopping 20 years.



Originally posted by Scizard
There's no reason for Vader to have diminished therefore at the very least Vader must be an equal to ROTS Anakin, though it's more likely he's quite a bit above him. We have no clue how strong Ahsoka is in the force so you can't diminish
Vader from that, same goes with Ben Kenobi like Vader he had 20 extra years to practice his force abillities I'm sure he was a lot stronger.


I'd say there's no reason to believe Vader is significantly > Peak Anakin for the reasons already stated above.

Ben Kenobi's clearly more powerful than before, but you are upscaling them for the sake of your Vader argument only, and not being very realistic IMO.

I mean just how powerful do you suppose Ahsoka and Ben Kenobi are? Ashoka would have to be Dooku level for Vader to just be on Peak Anakin's level.

So the best Vader could be is Peak Anakin level Imho.


Originally posted by Scizard
It's noted that Vader was specificly being cautious in regards to fighting Kenobi so you cannot say they're near equals in their fight. Especially considering Kenobi basically suicides. For all Kenobi knew Vader could've just dragged Luke towards him if he actually cared at that point in time, Kenobi would've held off Vader longer if he was actually able to.


Vader was going for the kill against Ben. Vader never passed his defences, though seemed to be slowly gaining ground on him.

Hence Ben needs to be better than Dooku just to scale Vader up to Peak Anakin level. We gotta be realistic in how far we are scaling up both Ahsoka and Ben just for the sake of scaling Vader up. Peak Anakin level is the best he could realistically be IMO.


Originally posted by Scizard
Palpatine was only able to ragdoll Maul in the fight when he sat down out of breath. Palpatine could've literally swung at him with his lightsaber and I doubt Maul would've even been able to dodge it. His energy was completely diminished.


Palpatine rag dolled both Maul and Opress with ridiculous ease. And vader wasn't even rag dolling Ahsoka erm


Originally posted by Scizard
Vader is stronger in the force and stronger physically, he's also got two decades more experience and sources implying he's > Palpatine. Not that I believe that is entirely true, it's still telling.


There's no reason to believe he's stronger. Like I have already pointed out, he certainly has better control of his Force powers, so can act effectively on a more consistent basis, but that doesn't make him stronger than peak Anakin in a duel.


Originally posted by Scizard
There's no middle ground for Vader to fight in between Dooku and Sidious. He believed he wasn't ready to fight Sidious on his own so that's out of the question. Yoda is in hiding. You can't see the change because there's no one to scale off of other than Anakin. Which he seems to be above.

Vader doesn't have a showing better than trouncing Dooku.

Honestly I think peak Anakin maybe a bit much. But there's no way he's above that.

Galan007
Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his powers at all. To the contrary, the injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever before.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his lightsaber skill. He simply had to create/adopt a new style in order to overcome his bulkier stature.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his overall potential with the Force.
Fact: We have no reason to believe that Vader's power/skill did anything but increase in the years between RotS and RotJ.

...So why are you trying to cap OT Vader at RotS Anakin level? erm


Seems like you're using his fight with Ahsoka as the primary measuring stick here, in lieu of logic to the contrary. We all know that Filoni isn't going to have anyone(I don't care how powerful they are) just waltz up and casually ragdoll/own his pet character Ahsoka... Not even Palpatine himself was able to do that:
https://i.imgur.com/AWzMFWK.jpg


As for Vader's fight with Ben: From A Certain Point of View makes it clear that it was ultimately a one-sided stomp in Vader's favor. Ben(the same guy who owned Maul in three strikes) could defend against Vader for a brief period, but he had absolutely no chance of winning.

Rebel95
thumb up Vader>Anakin (in canon)

Scizard
Originally posted by Darth Thor
No Anakin was considerably above Dooku. The source which says Dooku expended energy on defeating Kenobi is the novelisation which also makes it clear that Dooku replenished his reserves, and that blocking every strike against Anakin took more energy than defeating Obi-Wan.

There is a noticeable gap between Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda. Yes. But like I said Anakin was already considerably stronger than Dooku. So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement for the Chosen One with an unrivalled midichlorian count over a whopping 20 years.






I'd say there's no reason to believe Vader is significantly > Peak Anakin for the reasons already stated above.

Ben Kenobi's clearly more powerful than before, but you are upscaling them for the sake of your Vader argument only, and not being very realistic IMO.

I mean just how powerful do you suppose Ahsoka and Ben Kenobi are? Ashoka would have to be Dooku level for Vader to just be on Peak Anakin's level.

So the best Vader could be is Peak Anakin level Imho.


Vader was going for the kill against Ben. Vader never passed his defences, though seemed to be slowly gaining ground on him.

Hence Ben needs to be better than Dooku just to scale Vader up to Peak Anakin level. We gotta be realistic in how far we are scaling up both Ahsoka and Ben just for the sake of scaling Vader up. Peak Anakin level is the best he could realistically be IMO.





Palpatine rag dolled both Maul and Opress with ridiculous ease. And vader wasn't even rag dolling Ahsoka erm





There's no reason to believe he's stronger. Like I have already pointed out, he certainly has better control of his Force powers, so can act effectively on a more consistent basis, but that doesn't make him stronger than peak Anakin in a duel.




Vader doesn't have a showing better than trouncing Dooku.

Honestly I think peak Anakin maybe a bit much. But there's no way he's above that.

"Anakin is considerably above Dooku"
-Like I mentioned proof? Dooku expending energy on Anakin does not mean he is considerably more powerful and aren't you the one who always denies the novelizations being canon?

"So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement"
-You have no idea how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Vader by this point. Same goes with Palpatine, his knowledge and likely power grew over those two decades.

Yes Vader was going for the kill, but he was specifically being cautious, that is why he gains ground slowly. It's still a one-sided fight.

I'm not arguing Ben/Ahsoka's levels I'm simply saying you can't downplay Vader. We don't know how strong they grew in the force. It's completely realistic that two prodigies gained enough power to resist Vader's TK with 20 years of experience.

You're downplaying Vader simply because he hasn't fought anyone stronger than who Anakin's fought but you're treating them as separate beings. Like Vader suddenly lost his memory after his accident. To me, it sounds like your logic is just because Vader hasn't fought an opponent who's above Dooku level he's not Anakin level when they're the same person.

If we follow a similar logic ROTJ Palpatine and ignore the fact that Vader didn't try to kill Palpatine. ROTJ Palpatine must be way worse than ROTS Palpatine because OT Palpatine doesn't have any feats. Or AOTC Kenobi is superior to TPM Palpatine because TPM Palpatine doesn't have any feats.

I also don't see any proof he ragdolled Maul with ease. Maul is kneeling/on the floor to him in two instances. Vader was able to ragdoll Sidious in similar circumstances, that doesn't mean he can ragdoll Sidious with ease. Sidious held Maul for all of about 2 seconds in the first instance and wasn't doing enough damage to warrant Maul trying to use the force to defend himself anyway and there's an argument to be made that it's harder to defend yourself once you're already being levitated and slammed into a wall. Just because Sidious butchered Maul with ease does not mean he can freely use the force on Maul. One the first case Maul is shocked as it comes out of nowhere. Second case Maul basically gets baited, and is completely wide open. We see force users employ force attacks when characters leave themselves wide open. This is a near equivalent to Vader pushing Ahsoka. The third time he is out of breath and already on the floor.

There are multiple reasons for Vader to be stronger:
1. He did not deteriorate therefore he is at least peak Anakin.
2. His suit 'amplified' his powers therefore he is at least above peak Anakin.
3. He has two decades more experience and time to hone his skills.
4. He is physically stronger than Anakin.
5. Sources say his potential grew.
6. Sources say he is a better duelist than Palpatine, at least technically.
7. He has far more durability.
8. His force power evidently grew. This means he can last longer in a fight, amplify his physicals more or employ telekinesis on objects to hinder an opponent. Anakin has not shown the ability to do this effectively.

Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier.

The only way you can downplay Vader is by saying he has less mobility, but Galan has already mentioned that he centered his fighting style to overcome this issue and you cannot say that this one point > all the other 8 points that I made.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Scizard
"Anakin is considerably above Dooku"
-Like I mentioned proof? Dooku expending energy on Anakin does not mean he is considerably more powerful and aren't you the one who always denies the novelizations being canon?


You brought up expending energy to defeat Kenobi which came from the novel. Without the novel it's just speculation that cost him considerable energy.

Proof is the databank which states Anakin grew vastly in power from S5 TCW to ROTS. We already saw they were near equals in S4 TCW.




Originally posted by Scizard
"So placing Vader below Palpatine and Yoda doesn't leave much room for improvement"
-You have no idea how powerful Yoda is in comparison to Vader by this point. Same goes with Palpatine, his knowledge and likely power grew over those two decades.


We know Vader NEEDS Luke to overthrow Palpatine.



Originally posted by Scizard
Yes Vader was going for the kill, but he was specifically being cautious, that is why he gains ground slowly. It's still a one-sided fight.


Didn't seem very one sided tbh. I presume you will provide your source how Vader was being extra cautious, hence defeating Ben extra slowly?




Originally posted by Scizard
I'm not arguing Ben/Ahsoka's levels I'm simply saying you can't downplay Vader. We don't know how strong they grew in the force. It's completely realistic that two prodigies gained enough power to resist Vader's TK with 20 years of experience.


You are arguing Ben/Ahsoka's level by default.

It's only logical that if Vader is =/> Peak Anakin, then both Ahsoka and Ben would need to be >/= ROTS Dooku.

We do have an idea of Ahsoka's level given her confrontation with Maul and Inquisitors. So lets not act like she's a complete unknown at this point.



Originally posted by Scizard
You're downplaying Vader simply because he hasn't fought anyone stronger than who Anakin's fought but you're treating them as separate beings. Like Vader suddenly lost his memory after his accident. To me, it sounds like your logic is just because Vader hasn't fought an opponent who's above Dooku level he's not Anakin level when they're the same person.


I'm not downplaying Vader at all. He's simply limited by plot. There's no reason to presume he's above Anakin for no reason except he claims his anger has made him stronger in LOTS.

I'm asking for evidence that he's > Peak Anakin for which I've not been convinced at all. As he simply doesn't have a combat feat on par with overpowering Dooku the way Peak Anakin did. We also know from the plot of the OT that Vader was still < Palpatine.

So again, for what reason should I give Vader so much credit to actually place him above Peak Anakin?

The way I see it, he's likely still above Dooku level, but still below Yoda/Palptine level. So where's the improvement exactly? In use of TK? Sure. As an all out combatant at his best? You've not convinced me.



Originally posted by Scizard
If we follow a similar logic ROTJ Palpatine and ignore the fact that Vader didn't try to kill Palpatine. ROTJ Palpatine must be way worse than ROTS Palpatine because OT Palpatine doesn't have any feats. Or AOTC Kenobi is superior to TPM Palpatine because TPM Palpatine doesn't have any feats.


There's no reason to presume ROTJ Palpatine is above or below ROTS Palpatine in combat. Though we know he's been gathering artifacts/knowledge e.t.c.

Originally posted by Scizard
I also don't see any proof he ragdolled Maul with ease. Maul is kneeling/on the floor to him in two instances. Vader was able to ragdoll Sidious in similar circumstances, that doesn't mean he can ragdoll Sidious with ease. Sidious held Maul for all of about 2 seconds in the first instance and wasn't doing enough damage to warrant Maul trying to use the force to defend himself anyway and there's an argument to be made that it's harder to defend yourself once you're already being levitated and slammed into a wall. Just because Sidious butchered Maul with ease does not mean he can freely use the force on Maul. One the first case Maul is shocked as it comes out of nowhere. Second case Maul basically gets baited, and is completely wide open. We see force users employ force attacks when characters leave themselves wide open. This is a near equivalent to Vader pushing Ahsoka. The third time he is out of breath and already on the floor.


Sidious practically had both Maul and Opress frozen from the get go. And he was laughing while doing it. The only greater show of dominance I've seen is Yoda over Ventress. Except Maul and Opress combined are obviously >>>> Ventress.

Sidious also force choked Count Dooku over a hologram.

So why are we assuming Vader is his near equal again?



Originally posted by Scizard
There are multiple reasons for Vader to be stronger:
1. He did not deteriorate therefore he is at least peak Anakin.
2. His suit 'amplified' his powers therefore he is at least above peak Anakin.
3. He has two decades more experience and time to hone his skills.
4. He is physically stronger than Anakin.
5. Sources say his potential grew.
6. Sources say he is a better duelist than Palpatine, at least technically.
7. He has far more durability.
8. His force power evidently grew. This means he can last longer in a fight, amplify his physicals more or employ telekinesis on objects to hinder an opponent. Anakin has not shown the ability to do this effectively.



There's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT.

By all showings and feats, he's definitely Anakin's superior in the use of TK and his consistent control of the Force.

But there's nothing to place him above Peak Anakin in combat.

Oh and by the way Anakin's still got the greatest force feat as well on Mortis. But he wasn't consistent in his use of the Force, which is why I say Vader had better mastery and consistent use of his TK. Didn't seem to help much against any notable opponents though for some reason.


Originally posted by Scizard
Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier.


No that's wrong. Because he's fought both Ben and Ahsoka. You can argue special effects for Ben (but Disney used that fight to determine how Rebels Ben fights Maul, so they are beholden to that fight being complete canon). But Ahsoka was recent and in animated form. He force pushed her at one point, and had her potentially defeated. But it was hardly a rag doll.


Originally posted by Scizard
The only way you can downplay Vader is by saying he has less mobility, but Galan has already mentioned that he centered his fighting style to overcome this issue and you cannot say that this one point > all the other 8 points that I made.


Except I'm not even attempting to downplay Vader. At all.

Jeez saying someone at their best is on par with Peak Anakin is not a downplay. The only people above that are Luke, Palpatine and Yoda. Aside from that only Windu might be on par with that level. How on Earth is that downplaying? He's still in both his Anakin and Vader incarnations > both of Sidious's previous apprentices, probably > than any previous Sith and greater than all other Jedi.

Sheev
Originally posted by Galan007
Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his powers at all. To the contrary, the injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever before.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his lightsaber skill. He simply had to create/adopt a new style in order to overcome his bulkier stature.
Fact: Vader's injuries didn't diminish his overall potential with the Force.
Fact: We have no reason to believe that Vader's power/skill did anything but increase in the years between RotS and RotJ.

...So why are you trying to cap OT Vader at RotS Anakin level? erm


Seems like you're using his fight with Ahsoka as the primary measuring stick here, in lieu of logic to the contrary. We all know that Filoni isn't going to have anyone(I don't care how powerful they are) just waltz up and casually ragdoll/own his pet character Ahsoka... Not even Palpatine himself was able to do that:
https://i.imgur.com/AWzMFWK.jpg


As for Vader's fight with Ben: From A Certain Point of View makes it clear that it was ultimately a one-sided stomp in Vader's favor. Ben(the same guy who owned Maul in three strikes) could defend against Vader for a brief period, but he had absolutely no chance of winning. 100% thisthumb up

The argument that Vader peaked in ROTS ignores every single thing we know about him in new canon.

Sheev
I also think there are sources that state Vader was Sidious's most powerful apprentice, which automatically scales him above Dooku.

Galan007
Indeed:

https://i.imgur.com/yAjN4i0.jpg


And though you could rightly argue that "light years" isn't exactly quantifiable, the obvious intent of the dialogue is that Vader was FAR above Dooku and Maul.

Scizard
Wasn't talking about the novel. Of course it requires energy to use the force.

Obviously not that much vastly in power considering he gets pushed back by Dooku in S6 and kicked while Kenobi is on Dooku. Anakin is also getting visibly outskilled in ROTS. Dooku rising both Anakin and Kenobis blade and then kicking them. I'll agree to Anakin>Dooku but not that he is vastly or considerably more powerful than Dooku considering his fights at the moment. My mind is open to change on this.

And so what? He's likely still a very similar level to Palpatine. That's growth.

Pretty sure Galan has the source.

I'm not arguing Ahsoka/Kenobi > Dooku at all. Anakin wasn't able to just ragdoll Dooku either. So I think there's a misunderstanding. I'm saying that Vader not being able to ragdoll Ahsoka/Kenobi doesn't mean his force powers are weaker than you think.

If you're referring to sabers then, there's an argument to be made for Ahsoka/Kenobi to be near Dooku, but they're both struggling against Vader. You can visibly see it for Ahsoka and as soon as they re-engage you can see Vader is far more aggressive and Ahsoka would've died had she not been saved by Ezra.

This is what you don't understand. It does not matter than Vader does not have a feat that is superior to overpowering Dooku because he has not deterriated. It's like arguing can the Anakin who was on Coruscant during ROTS do the same as Invisible Hand Anakin and the suit enhances Vader.

"Vader is peak Anakin an enhanced suit and two decades more experience.
here's nothing concrete there. You are basically saying he logically should be > Anakin. But he is not, because that's not how Lucas designed the OT to be. Even when Disney retcon that, they are still beholden to the plot of the OT."

You're literally just saying here. Logically Vader is stronger but I'll choose to ignore that because Lucas says so. Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore. Disney can make Vader as powerful as they like.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. I'm not saying Vader is LIGHT YEARS beyond Anakin. Just that he is peak Anakin but better. All the sources point to this.

"Vader doesn't have a better showing than Anakin because no one other than Palpatine is available to give him a better showing, as I mentioned earlier."

"No that's wrong."
What's wrong about it? I'm not arguing ragdolling here. I'm saying that no one Vader can fight is CONFIRMED above Dooku which means Vader CANNOT have a better showing than Anakin because there is no one to give him a better showing.

Palpatine had 20 years to practice the dark side so it's logical that atleast his force augmentation has improved, however I will agree that there's nothing absolutely concerete on this matter that I'm aware of.


And yes there's plenty concrete in my 1-8 points. Most of them are facts and Mortis is literally a one off situation so I hope you are not using that in your defence.

You are trying to argue that Vader is not superior to Anakin. He is superior to Anakin. Having a suit that enhances and having more force power is enough to say Vader > Anakin. Let alone all the wank that say he is above Sidious "the most powerful sith lord", best red lightsaber duelist, slamming Sidious into a wall....

If you're saying Vader is an equal to Anakin. Then you're implying that Vader did not grow at all in two decades and yes you tend to go off by what is logical within reason and when it does not contradict other stuff.

Regarding Maul like I said, Maul was not expecting to be flung against a wall. He was not defending himself. The same applies to Dooku. If you want to go by that logic then Vader > Sidious because Vader was able to do the same thing.

Eli Vanto
Vader is way beyond Anakin in Disney canon. How is that even a question? confused

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Galan007
We all know that Filoni isn't going to have anyone(I don't care how powerful they are) just waltz up and casually ragdoll/own his pet character Ahsoka... Not even Palpatine himself was able to do that:
https://i.imgur.com/AWzMFWK.jpg

.

Which is so very annoying..

Galan007
It's ridiculous how much Filoni wanks her.

Forschbewithu
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not seeing it in Palpatine's bio. You have a link?

https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

Scroll down to where Vader is upright on the operating table for the quote.

Galan007
Cool, thanks. thumb up

Perhaps Vader was 'weaker' right off the operating table in RotS(which is what that quote seems to be referencing), as he basically woke up in a new body that he was obviously not used to... Though that also may not be the case, depending on how you interpret the opening scene from Soule's series:
https://i.imgur.com/BdZRqrt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FMv6cNg.jpg

...Along with the fact that Vader fought Kirak Infil'a(who was stated to be more powerful than any Jedi he had ever fought in the solicits for issue #3) just a few days after the events of RotS.

But either way, in Lords of the Sith it was explained that when Vader was forced to wear the armor, he initially hated it and viewed it as foreign. After growing accustomed to his armor, however, Vader's power and overall connection to the Force became stronger than ever:

Galan007
I guess it's also worth mentioning that during an interview with Charles Soule and Giuseppe Camuncoli regarding the events of Darth Vader v2 #3(set just a few days after RotS), Giuseppe stated this about Vader:

" armor is just new to him, so of course you have to make him feel a little less confident then he is when he's in his older days But somehow he is such a great fighter. He is a being of great power. He was a great Jedi before, and he's become maybe the most powerful Sith around."

Granted that's the artist talking, but he obviously worked very closely with Soule on the plots/scripts, and Soule didn't opt to correct him in the interview... So take that for what it's worth. /shrug

ares834
Vader's potential being curbed by the suit was something that never made sense to me. I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it ties the Force to the mundane to much and seems to really contradict Yoda's "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" speech. And, yeah, like I said earlier it just doesn't make any sense.

That Vader's issues were mental rather than physical was always a better idea.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Vader is way beyond Anakin in Disney canon. How is that even a question? confused


Way beyond?

His fights against Ben and Ahsoka say differently Imo.



Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which is so very annoying..


To be fair, both her and Ezra did run from Palpatine. She didnt run from Vader.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

Scroll down to where Vader is upright on the operating table for the quote.


Ah so its still there. Weaker than before, but his hatred/anger still gives him great power.


Originally posted by ares834
Vader's potential being curbed by the suit was something that never made sense to me. I get what Lucas was trying to do, but it ties the Force to the mundane to much and seems to really contradict Yoda's "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" speech. And, yeah, like I said earlier it just doesn't make any sense.

That Vader's issues were mental rather than physical was always a better idea.



Point is though something must have been restricting him not to have overthrown the Emperor 20 years post ROTS.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed:

https://i.imgur.com/yAjN4i0.jpg


And though you could rightly argue that "light years" isn't exactly quantifiable, the obvious intent of the dialogue is that Vader was FAR above Dooku and Maul.


So was Peak Anakin tbh.

But I digress that quote should put him at Peak Anakin level. Still not convinced hes progressed much beyond that level though. Except in consistency of his high showings and control.

Scizard
He's still beyond Peak Anakin even if it isn't by a significant amount.

Galan007
But why wouldn't Vader be beyond Anakin by a significant amount? Because of his fights with Ahsoka and Ben? Please.

As mentioned, Ahsoka is Filoni's pet character. No one is going to casually ragdoll her under Filoni(not even Palpatine did) -- so that's a moot argument as far as I'm concerned. And tbh, I'm not sure why you'd even try and faux-lowball Vader by cherry-picking this one showing..? Especially when Vader beat her in both 'rounds' of their fight. /shrug

As for Ben- he three-pieced Maul, yet the novel From a Certain Point of View makes it abundantly clear that he had absolutely NO chance of beating Vader:


Again:
-Vader didn't lose any of his potential.
-His injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever.
-His lightsaber skill was just as good, if not better, than ever before(a canon source puts him above Palpatine in sabers, for what it's worth.)
-He had 20+ years of near-constant battle to further hone his abilities.
-He was massively(ie. "light years"wink beyond the likes of Dooku.
-And a few sources imply that he was in Palpatine's tier from the get-go.

...Given all of the above, why on earth would we assume that Vader plateaued at RotS-level power/skill? confused

Scizard
Significant isn't the right word. Not sure how I'd describe Vader's superiority to Anakin. Probably something on the lines of if Anakin was the top of A tier, Vader would be around the bottom of S Tier.

Darth Thor
Again whats with the accusations of lowballing Vader? How is placing him somewhere in between Dooku and Palpatine lowballing exactly? Id argue you guys are lowballing just how powerful Peak Anakin already was, with his utter dominance over Dooku. Not to mention him once overpowering The Son and Daughter combined ffs.

-The databank has made it clear Palpatine KNEW Vader would be weaker after his injuries. He wasnt talking about needing recovery time after coming off the operating table.

-Ahsoka did run from Palpatine. Her and Ezra combined could not hold Palpatine off. And I dont recall pretending Vader didnt beat her.

- Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor. This was according to Lucas himself, because Vader possibly lost the potential to do so. Nothing in the new canon has changed that. The plot of the OT has not been retconned.

- Exactly where was this room for improvement when Peak Anakin was already beyond Maul and Dooku? There was even a quote from Lucas implying he was already Palpatines equal.


Vader improved in his use of TK. And in consistent performances. So that is an improvement, and power up of sorts. But aside from that hes not levelled up one from Anakins peak performances. Nothing shows that anywhere.

Zentrex
Let's come at this from a different angle:

How powerful was peak Anakin?

Definintely not Mortakin level.

While the intention behind the RotS fight was that Anakin was significantly and distinctly more powerful than Dooku, since no other source supports that in Canon, Disney could be trying to spin the fight to mean that Dooku was tired after fighting Obi-Wan, and his loss to Anakin was circumstancial.

And since so many authors and sources seem to insist (despite logic and Lucas' original intention) that Vader has improved significantly, it's reasonable to assume that if he's >Dooku now, he wasn't before.

In other words, Anakin (at his peak) could potentially lose to Dooku or Windu, whereas Vader would always win.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not to mention him once overpowering The Son and Daughter combined ffs. On Mortis... The ultimate universal Force nexus that was amping all of them(especially Anakin.) That is certainly not something that Anakin would have been able to do under normal circumstances.

For a point of reference, not even The Father could control his children off of Mortis.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
-The databank has made it clear Palpatine KNEW Vader would be weaker after his injuries. He wasnt talking about needing recovery time after coming off the operating table. That quote is clearly referring to Vader just off the operating table in RotS, as per the corresponding picture.

After becoming accustomed to his armor, however, Vader's abilities were not hindered at all... To the contrary, he was more powerful than ever.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
-Ahsoka did run from Palpatine. Her and Ezra combined could not hold Palpatine off. Right.

But the point is that even Palpatine didn't instantly ragdoll/own Ahsoka, despite wielding hyper-powerful Sith magics at the time(so powerful, in fact, that he literally ripped into TWBW without a proper gateway)... So I'm not sure why you would expect Vader to just waltz up and TK ragdoll her in a Filoni-created/produced show? We all know that's not going to happen, and certainly doesn't diminish Vader's standing.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
- Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor. This was according to Lucas himself, because Vader possibly lost the potential to do so. Nothing in the new canon has changed that. The plot of the OT has not been retconned. Again, Palpatine's power certainly continued increasing in the 20+ years between RotS and RotJ as well, due to his incessant knowledge-hoarding.

However, this does not preclude the notion that Vader also grew tremendously over the same period, and could have very well surpassed the level of RotS Palpatine, due to reasons I have already detailed. He simply needed Luke's help to overthrow Palpatine at that point in time(ESB/RotJ-era.)

Originally posted by Darth Thor
- Exactly where was this room for improvement See above.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader improved in his use of TK. And in consistent performances. So that is an improvement, and power up of sorts. But aside from that hes not levelled up one from Anakins peak performances. Nothing shows that anywhere. One more time:
-Vader didn't lose any of his potential.
-His injuries made his connection to the Force stronger than ever.
-His lightsaber skill was just as good, if not better, than ever before(a canon source puts him above Palpatine in sabers, for what it's worth.)
-He had 20+ years of near-constant battle to further hone his abilities.
-He was massively(ie. "light years"wink beyond the likes of Dooku.
-And a few sources imply that he was in Palpatine's tier from the get-go.

Vader not being able to fight random, Dooku-level foes all the time, doesn't change the abundance of information(and moreover logic) at hand. We have every reason to believe he did nothing but improve across the board after the events of RotS, and literally no legitimate reason to believe he capped at RotS level. erm

Zenwolf
I never really got the whole Anakin > Vader thing in either Canonicity. Because it always just seems to be "Well Anakin has more raw power" and...that's kinda it. Raw power/potential is all well and good, but if it's not actually usable then it's not meaning anything.

Always felt like they were close due to their own advantages, but obviously there are differences between the two given one is in a life support armored suit.

Galan007
I could at least follow the logic in Legends(even though it never made sense to me), because they made it a point to emphasize that Vader's injuries did reduce his power/potential, and the armor did inhibit him to some extent.

...But in canon it's the complete opposite. The injuries didn't gimp Vader's potential, and ultimately just increased his overall power/connection to the Force, and the armor didn't hinder him at all once he was accustomed to it.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Galan007
I could at least follow the logic in Legends(even though it never made sense to me), because they made it a point to emphasize that Vader's injuries did reduce his power/potential, and the armor did inhibit him to some extent.

...But in canon it's the complete opposite. The injuries didn't gimp Vader's potential, and ultimately just increased his overall power/connection to the Force, and the armor didn't hinder him at all once he was accustomed to it.

It was the same with previous lore too, he got accustomed to his suit and all that, it's stated he grew in power, being a threat to Sidious, etc and so on. It just wasn't out the gate like the new canon.

I mean really, it seemed like it was the same for Anakin who would grow to be a threat to Sidious, his power grew and all that.

So I never really felt any huge gap between the pair.

Scizard
Don't see how the databank makes sense, it says Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him *weaker* than before.

Whereas Lords of the Sith says that Vader's injuries strengthened his connection to the force and says he never felt more connected to the force then when his fury burned, which he always due to his hatrid remaining.

There's a source that also says Vader's suit enhanced his powers.

So if he's stronger in the force how can Sidious know that he is weaker than before. Makes no sense. confused

Galan007
Per the corresponding picture, the databank quote is referring to Vader just coming off the operating table in RotS, when his armor and mangled body were still foreign to him. Perhaps that may have gimped his powers initially(or so Palpatine thought.)

Lords of the Sith(and all the other sources referenced), however, are referring to Vader's power after he became accustomed to the injuries/armor... And in so doing, his overall abilities became stronger than ever.

Heck, you could even argue that the databank blurb is contradicted by Soule's Darth Vader series, given that the moment Vader stepped foot off the operating table, he TK-hurled Palpatine into a wall and held him there for a bit:
https://i.imgur.com/BDVlY3T.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BdZRqrt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FMv6cNg.jpg

Then literally just a few days afterward, he was already fighting Kirak Infil'a, who scales above the likes of RotS Kenobi if the solicits for issue #3 are any indicator:
"A Jedi more powerful than ANY Vader has faced before."

And when coupled with Giuseppe Camuncoli's statement regarding Vader's power in issue #3:
" armor is just new to him, so of course you have to make him feel a little less confident then he is when he's in his older days But somehow he is such a great fighter. He is a being of great power. He was a great Jedi before, and he's become maybe the most powerful Sith around."

...It paints a pretty telling picture of where he stood immediately after RotS.


Either way, the databank quote doesn't negate anything mentioned thus far in regard to Vader's power-creep between RotS and RotJ.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I never really got the whole Anakin > Vader thing in either Canonicity. Because it always just seems to be "Well Anakin has more raw power" and...that's kinda it. Raw power/potential is all well and good, but if it's not actually usable then it's not meaning anything.

Always felt like they were close due to their own advantages, but obviously there are differences between the two given one is in a life support armored suit.

Funny.



Make no mistake: the only, only reason Vader could fight competently in Legends at all was because Anakin was that good to begin with. Vader is disabled in almost every way imaginable.
He's half-blind, half-deaf, has so much weight and bulk he might as well be morbidly obese, his sensations and reflexes are patchy at best, he's chronically intubated and catheterized with machines taped to his chest and pelvis, he never sleeps, and his connection to the force is less than half as strong as it was previously

xPRIMEx
Those sources are legends?

Galan007
Yeah, Legends.

It's from The Rise of Darth Vader.

NewGuy01
I also threw in a tidbit from Revenge of the Sith since it was pertinent.

Total Warrior
Still, it seemed like RotS Anakin was about to surpass Yoda and Sidious, if he hadn't already. Hell, there are some sources that state he was already the strongest Jedi. And him dominating Dooku kinda solidifies it. If he still got more powerful after Mustafar... how come he was always weaker than the Emperor?

Galan007
^ Because Palpatine's power increased over that time as well.

But even if we assume that Vader's power already rivaled Palpatine's just after RotS, Vader certainly wouldn't have tried to challenge/kill him at that point, because he was still very subservient and felt there was much that Palpatine could teach him. He only became 'disgruntled' with Palpatine later in life.

Scizard
In Lords of the Sith, IIRC, Vader theorizes that Palpatine was holding back his true strength during their little adventure. It's quite possible that Vader couldn't identify Palpatines true strength/limits and decided not to challenge him without Luke (insurance) for that reason. He could just generally be overestimating Palpatine.

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx
The way I look at it is like a football play who had a bad injury but came back and became even better than before. It would still take the football player a lot of time to recover and regain their old skills.

Zenwolf
As I noted Newguy, Vader got accustomed to his suit. Never said he immediately got used to it.

Zentrex
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Because Palpatine's power increased over that time as well.
I was about to scoff at that, considering Anakin could just be weaker in the NuCanon, but then I realized this was Sheevwank. And since I am obligated to peddle and support all reasonable Sheevwank, this will be my main Sidious ranking from now on smile

Galan007
laughing out loud Fair enough.

But it's also a completely logical assertion based on the info at hand.

We know that Vader's injuries never really gimped his potential. We know that his armor never really hindered his power/skill. We know his connection to the Force was stronger than ever as a result of his injuries. We have every reason to believe that his overall abilities only increased over the years.

So in order for Palpatine to maintain supremacy over Vader, his own powers must have increased substantially as well... And given the knowledge-hoarding that Palpatine was doing, there's really no logical way for his power to not have increased over the course of 20+ years.

Zentrex
Correct, though what I was getting at was Anakin's power. In Legends, he was godlike at the time of Knightfall, but only because he was about to be pushed back down to reasonable levels.

It was a little hard for me to believe that he would be that powerful in Canon, since that would scale RotJ Palpatine leagues beyond every other force user up to his time (aside from the Ones). Although this would lend some credence to Vader's claim that his master was more powerful than the Bendu.

But then Luke and Rey would be even crazier levels of powerful. I guess I can accept it for now, but this really changes things.

Galan007
Probably because you're still thinking of Knightfall Anakin from Legends, who was mused(if not directly stated) to be the most powerful Jedi in the Order, and beyond even Yoda at the time. Then Mustafar happened and he diminished significantly across the board.

In canon, however, 'Knightfall' Anakin doesn't have the accolades of his Legends counterpart -- all we know is that he was obviously very powerful/skilled. Difference in canon is that after the events of RotS, Vader wasn't implied to have diminished at all. To the contrary, his power/skill was greater than ever. ie. if he was a 10 before Mustafar, he was still a 10 after... And only continued growing from there.

Inedian
Vader is the best lightsaber fighter. Sidious said Vader powers in the Force as being unparallaled. In Force Awakens Dictionary it is said that through Ren flows bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith (of course implying on Vader). He TKed Sidious which was obvious it wasn't easy for Sidious and that was ROTS Vader. He is the only one with power level besides the Son to cast red force lightning, easily the most powerful force lightning. He did it in subtle form, he probably doesn't use in physical form because of the suit, his force powers are up to that level. The depth of power (which is only latent in Vader case) was always on side of Vader and by a wide margin, no contest. And without reaching up his true depth of power, he already destroys Sidious. At best Sidious could put Vader to the edge which would mean Vader would destroy him. Mortis Anakin is what Anakin would always become in time, revealing him his real nature and his true power level, that was the point of Mortis, not only an amp, showing him what he already had in him and would always become that. The Father obviously knew that. Sidious was always scared of Vader and was shitting his pants of the thought of Vader truly turning on him and going after him.

Vader was always the true terror not Sidious.

Scizard
Nah I don't see it as clear cut as that, Vader says that he must obey his master, when referencing the dark side. I definitely think Palpatines power > Vaders, he also fears that Sidious wasn't showing his true power in LOTS, and I'm pretty sure Vader hypes up Sidious in Thrawn.

If Vader was leagues above Sidious then he would've dealt with him already. Although I do think it's quite possible that Vader's lightsaber skills are superior.

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