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What evidence is there in new canon that Sidious was more powerful than Vader?

I ask because I've recently come across a few guides and bios that imply that Vader is the most powerful Sith.

Vader needed Luke to overthrow the Emperor, remember? He would have done it himself otherwise.

right right. But that have have also just been a way for Vader to get Luke to his side.

also, I'm more talking about canon info released since 2014.

It doesn't get more canon than ESB. And if Vader could beat Sidious alone why hasn't he done it already? He's been his apprentice for 20+ years.

You could argue knowledge, e.g. still didn't know how to transfer essence.

Always found it strange that everyone assumes to overthrow a Sith Master you have to be able to beat them in a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 face to face confrontation.

Vader is the best pilot in the Galaxy. And Luke not far behind. Would have thought thats far more useful in taking down the Emperor.

Not sure how that'd work though, most of the places the Emperor resides in are probably heavily fortified. There's also a decent chance that Sidious could conjure a force barrier to lessen the injuries.

Maybe attack the Emperor with a transport ship? But we've seen Luke use the force on ships so Sidious would probably be able to do similar to Vader's ship. Unless I'm missing something.

Also there's a good chance Vader overestimated Sidious and is just being extremely careful. It's likely that Vader would've far surpassed Sidious if he just gave it an extra 10-20 years. But with Luke he wouldn't need to wait that time.

Just seems more effective than using a Lightsaber to me, especially when Vader > Palpatine in that particular use of the force.

That said, I see your point, its probably far more effective leading an army of ships into battle against the Emperor. So would require Vader to have his own army loyal to him.

More effective for Luke leading Rogue Squadron.

If Vader really believed that he had the power to kill Palpatine, he would have done it(or at least attempted it) himself... Especially given the rage/hatred he felt towards Palpatine at times.

But the very fact that he didn't suggests he couldn't. This is solidified by Vader wanting to team-up with Luke in order to overthrow Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Just seems more effective than using a Lightsaber to me, especially when Vader > Palpatine in that particular use of the force.

lol what? Sidious would destroy Vader in a saber fight too

Originally posted by relentless1
lol what? Sidious would destroy Vader in a saber fight too



Was talking about as a pilot.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Was talking about as a pilot.

ah ok, misread that then, and yes you're correct on that one; would almost be comical to see Palpatine pilot a fighter tbh... it'd be so out of context lol

Originally posted by relentless1
ah ok, misread that then, and yes you're correct on that one; would almost be comical to see Palpatine pilot a fighter tbh... it'd be so out of context lol


He can definitely do that. Its a pretty standard use of the force for both Jedi and Sith.

Just no reason to believe any Jedi or Sith is on par with Vader or Luke in that regard.

Originally posted by Galan007
If Vader really believed that he had the power to kill Palpatine, he would have done it(or at least attempted it) himself... Especially given the rage/hatred he felt towards Palpatine at times.

But the very fact that he didn't suggests he couldn't. This is solidified by Vader wanting to team-up with Luke in order to overthrow Palpatine.

My point mainly was that I don't think Vader had much idea how powerful Palpatine was sure he can tell force power, in which Palpatine outclasses (most likely) Vader, however, a lot would come down to skills as a duelist since neither would be ragdolling the other.

It seems likely that even if Vader's Sabers was > Palpatine's then I don't see how Vader would know that, it's also possible Palpatine bigged up his fight against Yoda. Which would make Vader even more wary of Palpatine then he already is.

^ That's also assuming a battle between them would even come down to a saber clash.

Yes. What do you think would be the most likely? Disregarding Luke.

If Vader tried to overthrow Palpatine?

Most likely outcome is that he gets dominated with FL.

I thought Vader would be able to just block it like Mace does?

I think there's a few different ways to approach this.

In terms of canon quotes saying Sidious is more powerful, the book Lords of the Sith implies that Sidious is more powerful than Vader, though that book does take place in 14 BBY. It actually goes quite into detail about the relationship between Vader and Sidious, too. Another point is that in the 2015 Vader comic and the following Doctor Aphra comic, we've seen Vader get ambushed and tricked, whereas the same comic claimed that Palpatine's precog was so powerful that he could sense the very instant when hostility toward him turned into action.

The other point is that he clearly had a greater knowledge of the dark side and its powers, which may have given him a combative edge.

Of course, the OT also implies that he's more powerful - "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master."


In terms of why Vader didn't kill him, while it's tempting to say that it's because Vader wasn't more powerful than him, I agree with Darth Thor that he still probably could have killed him. I think it's probably because he was so subservient to him. He was psychologically locked into obeying Sidious, even if that's not what he wanted to do. Him wanting to teach Luke was his first step toward independence. Him actually teaching Luke would have been the last. Much like Kylo stepping out of Snoke's shadow by teaching Rey.

In terms of out-of-universe authorial intent, Sidious is pretty much supposed to BE the Dark Side. He's the definition of giving into your hate. So if you were to kill him, there's no Dark Side to join. There's no one to kill to defeat the Dark Side. There's no way to really tell a story without Sidious, since his death means the end of the saga.
And it wouldn't make sense for anyone to be more powerful in the Dark Side than the Dark Side incarnate himself.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Always found it strange that everyone assumes to overthrow a Sith Master you have to be able to beat them in a 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 face to face confrontation.

Vader is the best pilot in the Galaxy. And Luke not far behind. Would have thought thats far more useful in taking down the Emperor.

You have seen Vader's Star Destroyer. There's no way the Emperor isn't traveling in something at least as massive.

Even if Vader was powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor, he still didn't have all of Sidious' knowledge. This might explain why he didn't try. Also Sidious' had complete control of the galaxy. If Vader killed the Emperor I don't think that would go over very well. Btw I'm not saying that Vader would 100% be able to defeat the Emperor

Originally posted by Rebel95
Even if Vader was powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor, he still didn't have all of Sidious' knowledge. This might explain why he didn't try. Also Sidious' had complete control of the galaxy. If Vader killed the Emperor I don't think that would go over very well. Btw I'm not saying that Vader would 100% be able to defeat the Emperor


Except Vader was willing to overthrow him with Luke, in which case he still wouldnt have attained that knowledge.


Originally posted by Psychotron
You have seen Vader's Star Destroyer. There's no way the Emperor isn't traveling in something at least as massive.


Yeah but Vader can take out a Rebel fleet in just his Tie Fighter.

out of Lucas' mouth; Vader has 80% the strength of the Emperor after Mustafar