regarding the Sidious and Mace Windu scene

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ozz81
I wasnt sure i think Canon mentions it that when Sidious fought Mace and when Mace had got the upper hand: Sidious only lost on purpose to deceive anankin and turn him to the dark side or did sidious go all out on mace ?

If Sidious really fought Mace could he have beaten him easily in that light saber duel even though mace had vaapad: was it effective against sidious or had no affect on him ?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by ozz81
I wasnt sure i think Canon mentions it that when Sidious fought Mace and when Mace had got the upper hand: Sidious only lost on purpose to deceive anankin and turn him to the dark side or did sidious go all out on mace ?

If Sidious really fought Mace could he have beaten him easily in that light saber duel even though mace had vaapad: was it effective against sidious or had no affect on him ?

It's been years, but IIRC George Lucas confirmed Sids lost the saber fight. Horribly, I might add, since having your weapon front kicked out of your hands is the equivalent of being giving a wet willie KO in boxing.

If you're taking EU strongly into consideration, Mace is closer to Yoda than you'd think in terms of dueling ability and is primed to deal with Dark Side users because of Vaapad/Shatterpoint. It's not an instant or guaranteed win card, but it helps. Sids only has on-screen lightsaber domination of three mid tier Jedi masters, clustered in a doorway, with their AI turned off so as to prevent a counterattack against what must be a 4-5 second spin before landing before a thrust...

Sorry, my brain hurts thinking about how dumb that entire scene was. GL had an opportunity and a half to make Sids a good duelist, and he squandered it willingly.

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx
Mace legit beat him in the duel though. Keep in mind that Yoda was also able to disarm Sidious, but Sidious then resorted to his force abilities to over power Yoda.

Scizard
There's a part in the duel where Palpatine has Mace at bladepoint and doesn't take the lunge. IMO looks like Palpatine spared Mace even if he did legitimately disarm him.

Scizard
It seems pretty clear to me, but it could be a mistake, I mean somehow a blade went missing in TLJ so I can see this happening too.

I'd honestly like some more Mace Windu so we can see where he actually places in terms of lightsaber duelists.

juggernaut74
Mother Talzin held her own against Windu in a saber duel.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
GL had an opportunity and a half to make a good movie, and he squandered it willingly.

Scizard
In TLJ during the fight against the Praetorian Guards a blade that was near Rey's back disappears during the fight.

xPRIMEx

Scizard
I'd like it if it wasn't bring ANOTHER character back to life...

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx
Anyone who falls to their death always comes back. Maul, Sidious, Ben... now possibly Windu

Galan007
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Mother Talzin held her own against Windu in a saber duel. True.

Even though they only fought for about 1 minute, I suppose that still scales Talzin pretty high, considering that was her only real saber battle(the possessed Dooku vs. Palpatine scene from SoD notwithstanding.)

hutchy1345
Windu and Vader TV show aren't confirmed?

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Galan007
True.

Even though they only fought for about 1 minute, I suppose that still scales Talzin pretty high, considering that was her only real saber battle(the possessed Dooku vs. Palpatine scene from SoD notwithstanding.) Palpatine says her skill was nothing compared to Dooku. angel

Galan007
Right, but can't say for sure if Talzin would've had the same control of Dooku's body that she had of her own.

Palpatine was able to tell within a few strikes/seconds that Talzin-possessed Dooku had "none of his skill"... But I'm hard-pressed to think that someone with none of Dooku's skill would have been able to stalemate Mace(even if their battle was brief.)

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Galan007
Right, but can't say for sure if Talzin would've had the same control of Dooku's body that she had of her own.

Palpatine was able to tell within a few strikes/seconds that Talzin-possessed Dooku had "none of his skill"... But I'm hard-pressed to think that someone with none of Dooku's skill would have been able to stalemate Mace(even if their battle was brief.)

Early Legends canon (maybe even Shatterpoint itself) indicated Dooku was the only real threat to Mace Windu's saber technique, with Yoda being an obvious head and shoulders over both. But actual precision and talent are Dooku's hallmarks, and Vastor has shown that even a rudimentary knowledge of the Force coupled with considerable raw power is a handful.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Galan007
Right, but can't say for sure if Talzin would've had the same control of Dooku's body that she had of her own.

Palpatine was able to tell within a few strikes/seconds that Talzin-possessed Dooku had "none of his skill"... But I'm hard-pressed to think that someone with none of Dooku's skill would have been able to stalemate Mace(even if their battle was brief.) No logical reason to assume that she didn't have the same control.

Either way it don't say that Dooku is leagues above Windu but it to me anyways suggests that Dooku>Windu in skill.

Galan007
Originally posted by juggernaut74
No logical reason to assume that she didn't have the same control.

Either way it don't say that Dooku is leagues above Windu but it to me anyways suggests that Dooku>Windu in skill. But here's the thing: if Talzin herself is far inferior to Dooku where saber skill is concerned, then she would have been utterly rape-stomped by Mace within the first few strikes... But she wasn't at all. Their saber fight was brief(only about a minute long), but Talzin was at least capable of holding her own.

So the only logical way to consolidate Palpatine's statement about Talzin-possessed Dooku's skill here(which he made within seconds after their clash began, mind you):
https://i.imgur.com/KBPf7yL.jpg
Is if we assume that Talzin was simply unable to use the full breadth of her skill while possessing Dooku's body.

juggernaut74
If there was narration stating or panels depicting she didn't have full control you would have a point but it's silly to assume so.

Scizard
The fight is barely anything at all. It's just two bladelocks and a moment where Talzin bumrushes Mace. Pretty sure the only reason she's keeping up is because of force augmentation not due to skill.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by Galan007
So your contention is, what? That someone vastly below the level of Dooku can contend with Mace(who was Palpatine-level in sabers himself)..?

Makes no sense. erm Ah the joy of Star Wars.

Reminds me of Anakin beating Dooku who beat Kenobi who beat Anakin.

Scizard
Why is that even a thing. Kenobi is struggling in the entire fight and then Anakin underestimates Kenobi because he's gone insane, it was always very clear to me.

juggernaut74
Kenobi had the high ground.

Eli Vanto
I thought Kenobi beat Anakin because he was intimately familiar with his fighting style and knew exactly what to expect. And also because Anakin was overconfident at the end.

Pretty sure someone posted the quote not long ago.

Scizard
Yeah Galan posted it a couple of days ago or something, there are numerous factors involved in the fight.

relentless1
watch ROTS all the evidence is there that Sidious threw the fight against Mace in order to turn Anakin

1. he kets Anakin tell the council who he is

2. he goads Anakin telepathically about his wife dying moments before the Jedi confront hime

3. hes able to kill two Jedi before Mace can even react and killed another while duelling them both so hes clearly faster than Mace here

4. at one point he has mace dead to right at blade point and allows him to recover

5. the moment Sidious' blade gets kicked out of his hand and he starts backpedaling from Mace is the exact moment Anakin walks into visual range

6. often overlooked is that Mace actually wanted to arrest Palpatine at first, only AFTER Sidious' lightning barrage did Mace decide to kill him outright which is why Sidious pressed the attack, in order to push Anakin into a right now choice

taking the novel into account, Sidious had set up audio recording once the Council confronted him in order to set them up, the entire thing was clearly a set up to accomplish two things; force Anakins decision make the Jedi look like aggressors looking to overthrow an elected leader

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Scizard
Why is that even a thing. Kenobi is struggling in the entire fight and then Anakin underestimates Kenobi because he's gone insane, it was always very clear to me.

Struggling?

His fighting style is all about defense, doesn't mean he was struggling.

Hell, he even matched Anakin in the Force.

juggernaut74
Originally posted by relentless1
watch ROTS all the evidence is there that Sidious threw the fight against Mace in order to turn Anakin

1. he kets Anakin tell the council who he is

2. he goads Anakin telepathically about his wife dying moments before the Jedi confront hime

3. hes able to kill two Jedi before Mace can even react and killed another while duelling them both so hes clearly faster than Mace here

4. at one point he has mace dead to right at blade point and allows him to recover

5. the moment Sidious' blade gets kicked out of his hand and he starts backpedaling from Mace is the exact moment Anakin walks into visual range

6. often overlooked is that Mace actually wanted to arrest Palpatine at first, only AFTER Sidious' lightning barrage did Mace decide to kill him outright which is why Sidious pressed the attack, in order to push Anakin into a right now choice

taking the novel into account, Sidious had set up audio recording once the Council confronted him in order to set them up, the entire thing was clearly a set up to accomplish two things; force Anakins decision make the Jedi look like aggressors looking to overthrow an elected leader All of that makes sense.

But what about Lucas' statement saying that Mace won the fight?

xPRIMEx

relentless1
Originally posted by juggernaut74
All of that makes sense.

But what about Lucas' statement saying that Mace won the fight?

GL says Mace "overpowers" Palpatine but in the same breath goes on to describe Sidious feigning weakness iirc his quote as I can't seem to find it verbatim anywhere right now

StiltmanFTW
Jackson punched Lucas in the face when he read the original script.

Zentrex
Originally posted by relentless1
GL says Mace "overpowers" Palpatine but in the same breath goes on to describe Sidious feigning weakness iirc his quote as I can't seem to find it verbatim anywhere right now
Yeah, he says that he overpowered him by kicking his saber out the window, and then he started feigning weakness when Anakin arrived.

Could just mean he let himself get overpowered. I mean, the scene was filmed a bunch of times, each time showing Palpy taking out all the masters more quickly. In fact, the novel even says that Palpatine's lightning was "too much for Vaapad." He could have blasted them all with lightning before they even pulled out their sabers considering he can read their minds and "forsee" the future. The intention seems pretty clear to me, Palpy let Windu win.

quanchi112
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Struggling?

His fighting style is all about defense, doesn't mean he was struggling.

Hell, he even matched Anakin in the Force. thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by Zentrex
Yeah, he says that he overpowered him by kicking his saber out the window, and then he started feigning weakness when Anakin arrived.

Could just mean he let himself get overpowered. I mean, the scene was filmed a bunch of times, each time showing Palpy taking out all the masters more quickly. In fact, the novel even says that Palpatine's lightning was "too much for Vaapad." He could have blasted them all with lightning before they even pulled out their sabers considering he can read their minds and "forsee" the future. The intention seems pretty clear to me, Palpy let Windu win. No, he was defeated then feigned weakness to manipulate Anakin.

JediMaster97
If I remember the quote correctly Lucas said Palpatine "exaggerated" his weakness, implying he was indeed somewhat weak in that moment, not just pretending.

Zentrex
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he was defeated then feigned weakness to manipulate Anakin.
Excellent argument.
Originally posted by JediMaster97
If I remember the quote correctly Lucas said Palpatine "exaggerated" his weakness, implying he was indeed somewhat weak in that moment, not just pretending.
I would still argue there's room for interpretation there, just as with the "overpowered' one. And I would lead you to my previous comment to address why it's likely Sidious did fake it all.

xPRIMEx

xPRIMEx
Point is, even though Mace may be able to beat Sidious in a saber battle, Sidious is still far more powerful in the force and wins in an all out fight.

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