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ROTS Dooku
ROTJ Luke

canon only.

luke

Luke in sabers/all-out.

I don't know that he could beat Dooku in a 'Force-off', though. His Force powers in that era haven't really been expanded on much.

Why would Luke win in sabers? ROTJ Luke was barely trained.

I'd say Dooku mid difficulty.

Originally posted by CriticalShaft
Why would Luke win in sabers? ROTJ Luke was barely trained. His fight with Vader?

Isn't it mostly accepted that Vader was fighting half-heartedly. Also, I'd say Dooku's an equal or slightly better duelist than Vader

Vader is definitely a superior duelist to Dooku in canon. I also think Luke trains with magma guards in one of the Star Wars comics for sometime.

Are comics canon?
Also, do you think Vader could have done as well as Dooku against Yoda?

Originally posted by Scizard
Vader is definitely a superior duelist to Dooku in canon. I also think Luke trains with magma guards in one of the Star Wars comics for sometime. That was Luke just after ANH, but yeah, he fought some Magnaguards. Didn't do too well against them back then, obviously.

Originally posted by CriticalShaft
Are comics canon? The comics are 100% canon.

Vader is one of the greatest duelists of all time in canon. He’s listed as a better duelist than both Sidious and Dooku from a canon source. Luke besting him in ROTJ is a really good feat, even if Vader was conflicted. Luke should win this

lol show me where it says Vader is a better duelist than Sidious

Sidious lost to Mace and Yoda in straight up saber duel. Even against maul and savage he had to resort to his force powers to win. I’m not saying he’s a bad duelist, but what makes him such a formidable combatant are his force powers and abilities. So in canon, it’s not unreasonable to say that Vader is superior in lightsaber combat

Originally posted by relentless1
lol show me where it says Vader is a better duelist than Sidious Absolutely Everything You Need To Know lists Vader as the #1 red lightsaber duelist, with Palpatine at #2.

Originally posted by relentless1
lol show me where it says Vader is a better duelist than Sidious Oh man you had to ask. I think the book they are referring to also had Maul ranked above Dooku which I find laughable.

Matt Martin has endorsed that list, so it is what it is.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Matt Martin has endorsed that list, so it is what it is. I don't know who that is but you're right it is what it is.

Dooku

the Vader wank knows no bounds over at the Diz eh?

The lists shouldn't be taken seriously when they're contradicted by other source material.

Matt Martin also thinks that Rey Sabers > Luke Sabers and denies sources because he thinks otherwise so.. yeah.

I think it's possible that Vader may have indeed become a better swordsman -- especially given that his power/potential/skill never diminished in canon, and in fact, only continued growing over the years. Conversely, Palpatine never had a reason to continue improving his saber skills after RotS, and aside from Lords of the Sith(which only took place a few years after RotS), I don't know that Palpatine had a need to even use his saber at all over the years.

But in a battle between them, Palpatine would still beat Vader by virtue of being more powerful overall, and possessing abilities that Vader did not.

Agreed, but I don't see Maul being a better duelist than Dooku at all.

Originally posted by Scizard
Agreed, but I don't see Maul being a better duelist than Dooku at all. What makes you say that? Canonically speaking.

Dooku is above Obi-Wan by a significant degree in technical and Force ability (to the point where Obi-Wan was a non-factor in fights) and yet Anakin is not able to overcome the latter. This calls his mastery into question.

If you examine Dooku's sword technique, he's clearly toying with Anakin. Anakin's 'win' isn't indicative of his overall power, considering again, Anakin displayed no superior Force powers and had a less than committed opponent who may have thrown the fight. Hell, IIRC, the novelisation or an early screenplay has Dooku call out to Palpatine, basically acknowledging that the fight was being thrown and Dooku would be spared.

If you were betting against a boxing match, that alone would throw results into question.

As for ROTJ Luke, FFS. ROTJ novelization notes (and the movie itself certainly implies) that Vader is toying with Luke in order to turn him and not genuinely trying to kill him in honest combat. Hell, the final fight on the Death Star is pretty much a reflection of the Dooku/Anakin battle in terms of themes. The difference is Luke doesn't give in to his hate and emotion; Anakin does.

ROTJ Luke has minimal real training. Certainly less than a proper Jedi Knight. And Dooku is not only one of the most powerful Jedi masters of the PT era, but onscreen the best technical lightsaber fighter we see. Hell, his stunt coordinator's performance netted its own dueling centric saber style in the Fightsaber article to highlight it. He's got decades of training in Force and sword use; Luke got really mad and hit at his father like Ray Charles swinging at a batter's plate.

Don't confuse that with superiority.

Vader is considered to be Palpatine's most powerful apprentice by "light-years." Canon statement.

Luke is stated to be Vader's equal in force and sabers by rotj. Canon statement.

Rotj Luke > Dooku

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
What makes you say that? Canonically speaking.

Maul can't beat Kenobi when he's mentally stable. Whereas Count Dooku has no problems dealing with Kenobi even when he has Anakin to deal with. Maul cannot replicate the same.

Originally posted by Scizard
Maul can't beat Kenobi when he's mentally stable. Whereas Count Dooku has no problems dealing with Kenobi even when he has Anakin to deal with. Maul cannot replicate the same. You bring up a good point about Maul not being able to beat a mentally stable Kenobi.

I think people over look that.

Originally posted by Scizard
Maul can't beat Kenobi when he's mentally stable. Whereas Count Dooku has no problems dealing with Kenobi even when he has Anakin to deal with. Maul cannot replicate the same.
Dooku uses the force in ROTS to take out Kenobi, he doesn’t disarm or land a blow with his saber

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Dooku uses the force in ROTS to take out Kenobi, he doesn’t disarm or land a blow with his saber

Was referring to The Lost One episode, primarily.

"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure." - Dave Filoni

Now I get the story group makes it their mission to deepthroat Vader and the OT, but I really don't see Luke being anywhere near Dooku's level.

ROTJ Luke isn't on Dookus level but fast forward 20 years that's a different story.

Realistically speaking I don't see him being above Dooku, but in actuality in current canon he is, whether we like it or not.

Pretty much.

Jedi vs. Sith (2016) states:
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."

Granted, they weren't trying to kill each other during RotJ(Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark, and Luke was trying to turn Vader to the light), but that doesn't change the fact that in canon their power/skill was intended to be equal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure." - Dave Filoni

Now I get the story group makes it their mission to deepthroat Vader and the OT, but I really don't see Luke being anywhere near Dooku's level.

Woooahhhh new quote for me. What is the source on this? If this is legit, I think this quote may have more weight than the Jedi vs sith quote.

Source:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=1

In short, Filoni made that statement back in 2012. Therefore it is Legends, and does not override the canon quote from Jedi vs. Sith.

Originally posted by Galan007
Source:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=1

In short, Filoni made that statement back in 2012. Therefore it is Legends, and does not override the canon quote from Jedi vs. Sith. So if we can get him to say it again in 2020 it's canon?

Originally posted by Galan007
Source:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=1

In short, Filoni made that statement back in 2012. Therefore it is Legends, and does not override the canon quote from Jedi vs. Sith.

I see. It does mean something since it's coming from Filoni though. Although I agree, technically not canon. You could make a strong argument that It very well could be and might as well should be canon since it's coming from him.

Commentary from GL and Filoni are indeed canon to an extent... Until they are contradicted by more recent canonical sources. That's why I referred to them as Legends in this case.

GL intended for Vader to have been gimped after RotS. That is no longer the case in canon, however, so his intent is effectively negated.

Same with Filoni's 2012 comment. More recent canon info has Luke's power AND skill on par with Vader's during RotJ.

Originally posted by Galan007
Commentary from GL and Filoni are indeed canon to an extent... Until they are contradicted by more recent canonical sources. That's why I referred to them as Legends in this case.

GL intended for Vader to have been gimped after RotS. That is no longer the case in canon, however, so his intent is effectively negated.

Same with Filoni's 2012 comment. More recent canon info has Luke's power AND skill on par with Vader's during RotJ.

Has there been any established tiering in the new canon? My understanding is everything is just equally canon?

There's no strict tiering system in the new canon. It's all on equal footing.

So guidebooks, novels, and comics are just as canon as the films.

my question is- can secondary sources override or retcon the movies?

for example- if a novel is released in the future that says Rey's lightsaber has a purple blade, would that become canon even though the movie shows her with a golden blade?

Well that would just be a error. But I would still say if it came to it the movies & TV shows > rest.

Mainly because we see Ahsoka's lightsabers as blue in the Clone Wars when they were originally Green, so they clearly just changed them regardless of the novel.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
So if we can get him to say it again in 2020 it's canon? Depends on the source/context.

Matt Martin has made it clear that published works always take precedence over random creator statements. In fact, Martin has flatly stated that creator statements are non-canon unless confirmed in official storytelling:
https://i.imgur.com/32n1bgs.jpg
*He even used GL as an example of *why* random statements are not always reliable.

I suppose the exception would be if a statement is made by a member of the Story Group, as they essentially dictate canonicity across the franchise... Though it still seems like published stories are always going to take absolute precedence where canon is concerned.