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I know, I know, Danny bea Shen Kuei when he was "focused".


I, personally, feel this is not representative of an average. I think Cat beats Danny more times then not.


Who wins?

Cat's problem is that he's supposed to be Shang's equal... but... he is a villain.

Obscure one, too.

Hard to gauge him properly because of that.

All I really remember is him taking Cyclops out with a finger lol

Taskmaster > Cat > cdtm version of Danny > Aunt May > cdtm

Originally posted by Supermutant
Taskmaster > Cat > cdtm version of Danny > Aunt May > cdtm


It's one bad showing.


Mr. X is also > Taskmaster.

Who is < Iron Fist.



Personally, I'm inclined towards Taskmaster being the jobber here, meaning there's no shame in Cat losing to him. Shang should lose to a well written Taskey too.

Originally posted by cdtm
It's one bad showing.

Mr. X is also > Taskmaster.

Who is < Iron Fist.



Personally, I'm inclined towards Taskmaster being the jobber here, meaning there's no shame in Cat losing to him. Shang should lose to a well written Taskey too.

It's not, Danny pretty much stomped him in the rematch in the first volume of H4H. And he didn't use the iron fist there, so why would now be any different? Danny has only gotten better feats since then, not so much for the Cat.

A well written Shang would beat Tasky the same way Elektra and DD has done.

Mr X had a spark when he started but now he's just garbage.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cat's problem is that he's supposed to be Shang's equal... but... he is a villain.

Obscure one, too.

Hard to gauge him properly because of that.

Yeah he simply doesn't have the showings or enough of the high end stuff to compete with the elite mmas feats.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Mr X had a spark when he started but now he's just garbage.

Remender had zero interest in writing Thunderbolts.

He was tasked to write a single issue, as Marvel had no available writer at that time.

So he filled it with comic relief. You would've done the same thing, if your boss had forced you to do someone else's work.



Diggle and others wrote X with respect. Even had him going toe to toe with Nuke in h2h, despite Nuke's obvious physical advantage and his mind being mostly cybernetic.

And Nuke gave Cap hell.

Originally posted by Supermutant
It's not, Danny pretty much stomped him in the rematch in the first volume of H4H. And he didn't use the iron fist there, so why would now be any different? Danny has only gotten better feats since then, not so much for the Cat.

A well written Shang would beat Tasky the same way Elektra and DD has done.

Mr X had a spark when he started but now he's just garbage.


It was far from a stomp. Danny's clothes were pretty shabby looking for it to have been a stomp.


The majority of the fight was off panel, meaning we don't know how most of it went. But we DO know he had to focus to win. And we also know their last fight was even, until Danny's attention was drawn away by Misty being in danger.


And the fact Cat is good enough to KO Danny from that tiny distraction is a feat for Shen Kuei. Think about all the times a top tier fights under less then ideal circumstances. If Cat and Iron Fist weren't very close in skill, Danny would not need his full attention..

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Remender had zero interest in writing Thunderbolts.

He was tasked to write a single issue, as Marvel had no available writer at that time.

So he filled it with comic relief. You would've done the same thing, if your boss had forced you to do someone else's work.



Diggle and others wrote X with respect. Even had him going toe to toe with Nuke in h2h, despite Nuke's obvious physical advantage and his mind being mostly cybernetic.

And Nuke gave Cap hell.


This is a completely fair criticism.


And in the interests of fairness, who was the writer that had Logan stomp Shang? How familiar was he with the character?


Remember when Superman was given hell by Slades Ikon suit? Another writer had Superman casually break the shield he failed to penetrate.


Personally, I find that less credible compared to Priests work.


I mean, didn't Daniel Way write that Shang/Logan training session beat down?


Maybe not, but you get my point.

Originally posted by cdtm
And in the interests of fairness, who was the writer that had Logan stomp Shang? How familiar was he with the character?

Ben Raab.

He wanked Shang plenty in that arc, even had him detecting Scott and Jean, whose presence was psionically masked.

Originally posted by cdtm
I mean, didn't Daniel Way write that Shang/Logan training session beat down?

No. It was Fred Van Lente.

Shang had the homefield advantage, he was armed and had the area prepped with hidden weapons and crossbows --- Wolverine never once tried to retaliate... as he wasn't there to fight Shang... so it was only a matter of time before Shang knocked him down or got the upper hand.

He was there hoping to learn some kung-fu technique that would help him against Creed.

Instead, he found that Shang has abandoned his kung-fu ways for koan teachings, which he considered useless, till he discovered they'd help him with his inner human/beast struggle and Creed's mindgames.



When Wolverine *did* fight back, he made a quick work of Shang, as you already saw. And Shang even had the advantage of landing a free shot

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/b7/e8/b9b7e8383153062d3d273c0975343f13.jpg


For Supermutant.


This is before the Misty distraction, meaning Danny was plenty focused here. Very even looking, anyone's game.


There's no way Danny "stomped" Cat when he beat him in their rematch, judging by this page.

Originally posted by cdtm
It was far from a stomp. Danny's clothes were pretty shabby looking for it to have been a stomp.


The majority of the fight was off panel, meaning we don't know how most of it went. But we DO know he had to focus to win. And we also know their last fight was even, until Danny's attention was drawn away by Misty being in danger.

What are you talking about? Danny's clothes weren't ripped at all. There is no visible damage to his costume during this fight as seen below.

https://imgur.com/a/Xap4wA5

And what evidence is presented to make you think the majority of this fight took place off panel? There were other fights taking place too which lasted a similar amount of time, and occurred in a similar amount of panels.

And it was absolutely a stomp. The Cat got the first hit and his only hit. Danny koed him in 3 attacks and none with the ironfist.

Originally posted by cdtm
And the fact Cat is good enough to KO Danny from that tiny distraction is a feat for Shen Kuei. Think about all the times a top tier fights under less then ideal circumstances. If Cat and Iron Fist weren't very close in skill, Danny would not need his full attention..

Anybody can be caught off guard and distracted. Lady Shiva became distracted by a whistling bo staff and young Tim Drake (way less skilled than her) defeated her.

So how does a stalemate before a distraction and a stomp in Danny's favor makes the Cat better than him? Are you sure that you are an Ironfist fan?

Originally posted by cdtm
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/b7/e8/b9b7e8383153062d3d273c0975343f13.jpg


For Supermutant.


This is before the Misty distraction, meaning Danny was plenty focused here. Very even looking, anyone's game.


There's no way Danny "stomped" Cat when he beat him in their rematch, judging by this page.

I didn't need that scan.

https://imgur.com/a/bX8EHId

It was clear from the first fight and the rematch, that the Cat only won the first one because Danny got distracted when Misty got taken out.

So you think those three pages represent the entire fight? Cat lands a kick, gets hit three times, and it's over?


You're seriously underrating Shen Kuei here. The man fought to a draw against Shang Chi not once, not twice, but three times, and had him on the ropes in one of them. That scans I posted proves Shen isn't going down easy to Danny, like the picture you're painting.

Originally posted by Supermutant
I didn't need that scan.

https://imgur.com/a/bX8EHId

It was clear from the first fight and the rematch, that the Cat only won the first one because Danny got distracted when Misty got taken out.


Sure. And this stalemate is before the Misty distraction.


Danny's tattered hood is proof of their parity.

Originally posted by cdtm
So you think those three pages represent the entire fight? Cat lands a kick, gets hit three times, and it's over?


You're seriously underrating Shen Kuei here. The man fought to a draw against Shang Chi not once, not twice, but three times, and had him on the ropes in one of them. That scans I posted proves Shen isn't going down easy to Danny, like the picture you're painting.

I've seen shorter fights between skilled combatants. But I'm not going to assume it was longer without any proof.

Cat doesn't have the feats to compete simple as that. He's like a lot of rarely used antiheroes/villains that starts off great but decline over time. Black Tarantula, Steel Serpent Davos, Silver Monkey DC all fit in that category.

Originally posted by cdtm
Danny's tattered hood is proof of their parity.

I was referring to the rematch where Danny's clothes were fine.

Also - isn't that fight all mental?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also - isn't that fight all mental?

I can see why you'd think that given the text. But look at Danny's mask, a bit nicked.

It remains tattered until Shen Kuei KO's him.

So some old fights with Shang is why you believe the Cat is better than Danny, bsdm?

His history is why I believe he's a peer.

Finger poking Cyke.

Impaling Deadpool on his own sword.

Stalemating Shang three times.

Stalemating Iron Fist.

Originally posted by cdtm
Finger poking Cyke.

When Scott was preoccupied with Deadpool.

Originally posted by cdtm
His history is why I believe he's a peer.

His history is very much lacking when compared to Danny.

Originally posted by cdtm
Finger poking Cyke.

The Cat did a pressure point chop on Cyclops from behind, and while Scott was battling Wade. Every elite MMA fighter knows pressure point techniques, especially when given a free shot.

https://i.imgur.com/licEIfN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lRvIuEG.jpg

Also all it means is that they are 1-1, because previously Scott optic blasted the Cat into a ko.

https://i.imgur.com/5wqLQRI.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
Impaling Deadpool on his own sword.

He did own Wade a couple of times during that Arc. But Wade was fanboy crushing over him, and not fighting to par. Still this is probably the Cat's best feat in modern times. So he does have a legit win over Deadpool.

He also has a legit loss to Taskmaster where he was two-shotted.

Originally posted by cdtm
Stalemating Shang three times.

Shang has gotten better since then, but the Cat doesn't have the feats too match. Also, the Cat was Shang arch rival back then so it makes sense that they were more or less portrayed as equals during that time.

Originally posted by cdtm
Stalemating Iron Fist.

So the Cat has 1 stalemate and 1 lopsided loss to Danny.

Not a lot there for the Cat to build a case as being equal to current Danny. This is a surprising stance from you.

Cyke knew Cat was right there when he turned on them.


This isn't proof Cat had help. It's proof Cyclops is an idiot.

Yes, but he wasted his blast (and most of his fighting stance) on Wade, which gave Shen the perfect opportunity to KO him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes, but he wasted his blast (and most of his fighting stance) on Wade, which gave Shen the perfect opportunity to KO him.

yeah also Cyclops wasn't expecting to fight the Cat right there. They were on the same page for a brief moment there.

SM, Taskmaster is Meta though. He can double speed and everything.


He's the guy Osborn sends after Deadpool, and even gives Spidey problems. Essentially, he's an amped Midnighter.


Not sure if Shang Chi ever fought him, but I bet he wouldn't do all that much better, assuming Taskey is well written (A copycat with double time speed really SHOULD be stomping elites)

Originally posted by Supermutant
yeah also Cyclops wasn't expecting to fight the Cat right there. They were on the same page for a brief moment there.

Even if he expected to fight them both... I can't agree with cd that he acted like an idiot... he targeted the guy who drew his sword on him --- it makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Even if he expected to fight them both... I can't agree with cd that he acted like an idiot... he targeted the guy who drew his sword on him --- it makes perfect sense.


You think Wade did that out of the blue?


I think he started drawing during Cykes ominous speech, and not before.


"I don't trust you."


*During words*.


(Oh shit, thems blasting words. Betting take out ol' stabby McStab)

Doesn't matter "who started it".

Drawing his sword still made him Cyke's priority.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Doesn't matter "who started it".

Drawing his sword still made him Cyke's priority.


But see, starting its what makes him an idiot.


Not targeting the immortal guy with the sword, but engaging him when Bruce Lee's rival is standing right next to him.

Originally posted by cdtm
But see, starting its what makes him an idiot.


Not targeting the immortal guy with the sword, but engaging him when Bruce Lee's rival is standing right next to him.

Cyclops didn't have a reason to expect an attack from the Cat at that specific time. They all was sort of working together to stop Cable, at least a momentary truce. Deadpool was the one who made an aggressive move by unsheathing his sword, that's why Cyclops blasted it in response. Makes a lot of sense according to the story.

Originally posted by cdtm
SM, Taskmaster is Meta though. He can double speed and everything.


He's the guy Osborn sends after Deadpool, and even gives Spidey problems. Essentially, he's an amped Midnighter.


Not sure if Shang Chi ever fought him, but I bet he wouldn't do all that much better, assuming Taskey is well written (A copycat with double time speed really SHOULD be stomping elites)

Taskmaster could only go double time in the Udon suit for the exact reason that he doesn't possess meta stats. His body couldn't handle the stress of prolonged double speed without it. For instance Taskmaster while copying Elektra's moves couldn't keep up with her speed.

If anything, Midnighter is an amped Taskmaster.

I don't think Udon suit was the thing that enabled him to do it.

But it's true he learned and did that trick only in that book... watching videos sped up twice their normal speed... and was capable of short bursts of such speed only, as he has human limitations.

If we really want to argue whether or not there was a chance he used it against Shen, we should check if the Madripoor tournament happened before or after Taskmaster's Udon book.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I don't think Udon suit was the thing that enabled him to do it.

But it's true he learned and did that trick only in that book... watching videos sped up twice their normal speed... and was capable of short bursts of such speed only, as he has human limitations.

I didn't mean it enabled him, but it allowed him. Without it he would immediately die from just trying it. Even with the Udon suit he could only do double speed briefly, before breaking every bone in his body or passing out.

https://imgur.com/a/eqPYNX1

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
If we really want to argue whether or not there was a chance he used it against Shen, we should check if the Madripoor tournament happened before or after Taskmaster's Udon book.

Well as we can see in my previous link, the Udon suit is different and distinct from Tasky's normal costume. And below we see that Tasky wore his usual costume when he beat the Cat. So I don't think its even necessary to compare the timeline of those books. IIRC Tasky has never even attempted double speed without wearing the Udon suit.

https://imgur.com/Ys07fzE

But what proof you have that the suit had anything to do with it?

Unless it was stated, it's just a guess.

the whole pure skills debate for fictional characters is stupid

to judge pure MA skills you need to put 2 people on exact same physical attributes and power to get a clear answer, no 2 people have same exact stats, you are basically arguing fugazi

Originally posted by MrMind
the whole pure skills debate for fictional characters is stupid

Everything we discuss on KMC can be seen as dumb as f*ck, lol.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
But what proof you have that the suit had anything to do with it?

Unless it was stated, it's just a guess.

So what? An educated guess that is supported by the fact that Tasky only performed double speed while wearing the suit. He didn't perform it before and hasn't done it since.

Unless you have proof of him doing it outside of the suit. The main thing is he certainly was his normal self when he beat the Cat.

Originally posted by Supermutant
So what? An educated guess that is supported by the fact that Tasky only performed double speed while wearing the suit. He didn't perform it before and hasn't done it since.

Unless you have proof of him doing it outside of the suit. The main thing is he certainly was his normal self when he beat the Cat.

Except it doesn't make sense.

If the suit boosted his physicals or gave him some regen, Tasky wouldn't need to limit himself so much.

We can't make up shit like that, same as cdtm can't make up what happened or didn't happen off-panel.

--
Plenty of ideas get abandoned. Jean Grey used to know martial arts, it was never referenced again.

Back to Taskmaster. UDON run stated he had a photographic memory, everything was crystal clear to him. Not just fighting skills. Everything, all of his memories.

And not only it didn't get referenced again, it was retconned that he started forgetting stuff since he memorized too many fighting styles.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Except it doesn't make sense.

Except it makes more sense then someone who can briefly double his speed without the suit, you know not doing ever. Except the one time he does it, he just happens to be wearing a rare high tech futuristic suit.

Plus IIRC he doesn't wear it again except for a Power Pack comic that may or may not be canon.

But like I stated is there any other instance of him going double speed? If not, and it seems there are none, it doesn't matter at all for this thread which is the point. He two shotted the Cat without double speed, without any upgraded or new tech.

Yeah comic writers do whatever they want when they want. There's no disagreement there. They will give Logan heat claws if they think it will sell. So Tasky went from remembering everything, to not even remembering what he done the prior week as he told Finesse.

So to me I believe that the suit had something to do with Taksy being able to go double speed briefly, but its really not a point that matters in this thread. Or one that I feel strongly about to continue discussing.

Even if the suit had absolutely nothing to do with it, Tasky still only went double time for one issue. Unless you have proof that he did it since.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
If we really want to argue whether or not there was a chance he used it against Shen, we should check if the Madripoor tournament happened before or after Taskmaster's Udon book.


Is that the same one where Black Widow beat f'n Wonder Man?


Ashamed to even use Danny beating Pietro because of that, it makes the whole tournament suspect.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Except it makes more sense then someone who can briefly double his speed without the suit, you know not doing ever. Except the one time he does it, he just happens to be wearing a rare high tech futuristic suit.

Plus IIRC he doesn't wear it again except for a Power Pack comic that may or may not be canon.

But like I stated is there any other instance of him going double speed? If not, and it seems there are none, it doesn't matter at all for this thread which is the point. He two shotted the Cat without double speed, without any upgraded or new tech.

Yeah comic writers do whatever they want when they want. There's no disagreement there. They will give Logan heat claws if they think it will sell. So Tasky went from remembering everything, to not even remembering what he done the prior week as he told Finesse.

So to me I believe that the suit had something to do with Taksy being able to go double speed briefly, but its really not a point that matters in this thread. Or one that I feel strongly about to continue discussing.

Even if the suit had absolutely nothing to do with it, Tasky still only went double time for one issue. Unless you have proof that he did it since.

This discussion is pointless.

The way you worded it, I hoped you had some actual proof the suit amped him. You don't.

Let's agree to disagree here and leave it at that, as it's going nowhere.

By the way, this is exactly what cd aims to do in this thread.



UDON Taskmaster mini-series was released in April, 2002 (first issue).

The comic with the first part of the Bloodsport tournament (in which Tasky beats Shen) was released in October, 2001.

So there you go. No way that ability could've been shoehorned there then, as it simply didn't exist.

Originally posted by cdtm
Is that the same one where Black Widow beat f'n Wonder Man?


Ashamed to even use Danny beating Pietro because of that, it makes the whole tournament suspect.

No.

You've officially become worse than Carver.

You're thinking of Contest of Champions II. And Pietro was beaten by Gambit, not Danny.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
This discussion is pointless.

The way you worded it, I hoped you had some actual proof the suit amped him. You don't.

Let's agree to disagree here and leave it at that, as it's going nowhere.

By the way, this is exactly what cd aims to do in this thread.



UDON Taskmaster mini-series was released in April, 2002 (first issue).

The comic with the first part of the Bloodsport tournament (in which Tasky beats Shen) was released in October, 2001.

So there you go. No way that ability could've been shoehorned there then, as it simply didn't exist.



No.

You've officially become worse than Carver.

You're thinking of Contest of Champions II. And Pietro was beaten by Gambit, not Danny.


No, Colossus definitely lost to Iron Fist. Probably Contest of Champions 2.

And Natasha beat Simon, which no one really questions.


I do remember Taskmaster beating Cat at some tourney or other now. Those things always had problems, even Battletide had Logan beating the crap out of CL100 Deaths Head II with his bare hands, who could shrug off a full power Optic Blast.

Originally posted by cdtm
No, Colossus definitely lost to Iron Fist. Probably Contest of Champions 2.

Colossus is not Pietro.

You're doing awful today, cdcarver.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Colossus is not Pietro.

You're doing awful today, cdcarver.


Ivan Drunkowski then.

People are not going to treat you seriously if you can't even remember characters' names

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
This discussion is pointless.

The way you worded it, I hoped you had some actual proof the suit amped him. You don't.

Let's agree to disagree here and leave it at that, as it's going nowhere.

By the way, this is exactly what cd aims to do in this thread.


My proof got retconned away by bsdm. Correcting all of his inaccuracies took a toll on my memories. Now I know how Tony Masters feel.

Hey, I resemble that.


It's not like your correction made any of that stuff not happen.


Shang was always an apex predator anyways, is there any story related proof he upped his game since Master of Kung Fu?

Originally posted by Supermutant
My proof got retconned away by bsdm. Correcting all of his inaccuracies took a toll on my memories. Now I know how Tony Masters feel.



We really shouldn't be indulging him and keeping this thread going... but, alas, KMC no longer has the activity it once had.

Beggars can't be choosers.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Yeah he simply doesn't have the showings or enough of the high end stuff to compete with the elite mmas feats.

Back on topic.

Shen might be a great character concept, a clever opposite of Shang.

But he needs appearances and feats to assess him properly.

His showing against Cyke is meaningless, as proven earlier in this thread.

Wolverine appreciating him enough to want to spar with him is just lip service.

He might've been Shang's equal back in the day, but Shang has progressed and Shen's been out of the spotlight for too long.