Iron Fist vs Bane H2H

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Supermutant
https://i.imgur.com/tfedjZxl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TmS5QJql.jpg

No chi amping for Danny and no venom device for Bane.

Fight in an adamantium cage.

StiltmanFTW
Well, Danny does have his insane showing against Wrecking Crew.


But Bane has a few feats against heavy hitters as well, doesn't he?

Hourman? Mammoth?

Not to mention taking down Grundy (who was still operating at high power levels, as seen when he fought Gotham and destroyed a giant statue) backed up by Amygdala, who is not exactly a pushover either.

StiltmanFTW
Hell, Amygdala was considered to be superior to Croc and King Shark during that time.

DarkSaint85
Is there still a distinction between n52 and pre for Bane?

Because he has a plethora of - if not skill - insane durability feats without Venom.

As for Amygdala and Croc....Bane defeated a Venom amped Croc without Venom himself, don't forget:

https://imgur.com/a/s6ORP78

Supermutant
Nice Arkham War scans but Bane had venom there. The venom tank on his back and the tubing going directly into the back of his head.

I agree that it should come down to skill and durability showings w/o the iron fist and venom.

I don't think there is a distinction between Bane pre 52 and current. The same backstory exists born into a prison, test subject for prison experiment, etc. N52 venom made Bane smarter and faster, and a meta w/o a recent dosing but he doesn't have venom here.

StiltmanFTW
Yeah, he had venom and he also used one of Mr. Freeze's guns against Croc.

Still, he did damn fine considering how he stood alone against the whole group of batvillains.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Supermutant
Nice Arkham War scans but Bane had venom there. The venom tank on his back and the tubing going directly into the back of his head.

I agree that it should come down to skill and durability showings w/o the iron fist and venom.

I don't think there is a distinction between Bane pre 52 and current. The same backstory exists born into a prison, test subject for prison experiment, etc. N52 venom made Bane smarter and faster, and a meta w/o a recent dosing but he doesn't have venom here.

I always thought it was empty - no Venom.

So comparing here:
https://i.postimg.cc/zBchCHH6/RCO011-1463396272.jpg

With the previous issue:
https://i.postimg.cc/Hn8yBWQx/RCO008-1463396213.jpg

But I guess its iffy.

Vanguard
I think Danny. Even though he has no magic, i think his training was better. But Bane has a chance.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
https://i.imgur.com/tfedjZxl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TmS5QJql.jpg

No chi amping for Danny and no venom device for Bane.

Fight in an adamantium cage.


By chi amping I assume you mean no Iron Fist?


Because a no chi Danny doesn't exist. Anything we imagine would be speculatory.

Best we have is those times Davos drained off the Iron Fist or when it was on the fritz against Creed, and even then he was still able to shatter Davos's ribs, or knock Creed into telephone wires.


He did kill Shou Lao to earn the Iron Fist too.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hell, Amygdala was considered to be superior to Croc and King Shark during that time.


Bane has the power and durability, but Danny has measures of those, plus Spidey level speed.

The proof of this is the time Davos fought Spidey several times, with Peter gradually ramping up his speed, until he reached a point he was genuinely trying to win. Until he got cornered and still lost.

An Iron Fist-less Danny fought this Davos, twice, and beat him decisively.

DarkSaint85
Yeah but you DON'T want to play that scaling game with Bane, considering who his biggest foe is....

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah but you DON'T want to play that scaling game with Bane, considering who his biggest foe is....

Batman?


Pretty sure the credit people give Bats, that sort of scaling would be an upgrade for Bane. stick out tongue

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Batman?


Pretty sure the credit people give Bats, that sort of scaling would be an upgrade for Bane. stick out tongue

Yup.

IF tags Davos who tags Spidey. IF > Davos >Spidey in speed.

Bane tags Batman who tags Flash. Bane > Batman > Flash in speed.

Bane beats Catwoman who beats TWO Flashes. Etc etc.

cdtm
Yes, I know you meant not to scale up Danny for something his enemy did against Spidey one time. smile


The thing of it is, Danny has a rep for being a street leveler with a magic fist because Matt or Elektra manages to give him a hard time. But if you look at Danny's history, he should genuinely be on Cage's physical tier, or above.


I mean, I can post scans all day of him tanking nuclear power beams, brick walls delivered from a speeding train, a Kamehameha that blasts him at least a cities length into ice and snow, or Luke Cages fist into the back of his skull, and shaking it off.


Bane's the same way, ripping apart power armor or surviing 40 feet plunges into water without breaking every bone in his body.


Really, Batman/Catwoman/Azbats and Daredevil/Elektra/Spidey have brought their stock down, given their crazy feats.


This is a good match up, from that perspective.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, I know you meant not to scale up Danny for something his enemy did against Spidey one time. smile


The thing of it is, Danny has a rep for being a street leveler with a magic fist because Matt or Elektra manages to give him a hard time. But if you look at Danny's history, he should genuinely be on Cage's physical tier, or above.


I mean, I can post scans all day of him tanking nuclear power beams, brick walls delivered from a speeding train, a Kamehameha that blasts him at least a cities length into ice and snow, or Luke Cages fist into the back of his skull, and shaking it off.


Bane's the same way, ripping apart power armor or surviing 40 feet plunges into water without breaking every bone in his body.


Really, Batman/Catwoman/Azbats and Daredevil/Elektra/Spidey have brought their stock down, given their crazy feats.


This is a good match up, from that perspective.

Except Bane has actual feats without Venom. Speed, durability and strength (as well as skill). And has beaten Bats without Venom.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman who tags Flash

When?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Bane beats Catwoman

Issue 82 or something else?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
When?

Drk Knights Metal, although there's also the hilarious scan where Poison Ivy is controlling Barry.



I looked back, and he was amped then with superVenom.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except Bane has actual feats without Venom. Speed, durability and strength (as well as skill). And has beaten Bats without Venom.


I'm talking about his feats without venom.


He ripped a leg off a guy wearing power armor without it. Pretty sure he was also fighting Azrael without it, post Batmans return. Azrael couldn't even scratch him, so cbarged him off a cliff that looked at least as high as Galactus. Big backflop, and Bane actually gets back up before eating a hook to KO.


Danny's closest comparable feats are those things he did without the Iron Fist, yet still had chi ampage.


There's literally no way to gague a "No chi" Danny, because chi is life force, and he'd be dead without it.


So what can we do, except bring in any feats except those where he's actively channeling an Iron Fist?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Drk Knights Metal, although there's also the hilarious scan where Poison Ivy is controlling Barry.

Thanks.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I looked back, and he was amped then with superVenom.

Yes.

In all fairness, the supervenom was injected brutally and was overloading him, also it was 2 versus 1.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
I'm talking about his feats without venom.


He ripped a leg off a guy wearing power armor without it. Pretty sure he was also fighting Azrael without it, post Batmans return. Azrael couldn't even scratch him, so cbarged him off a cliff that looked at least as high as Galactus. Big backflop, and Bane actually gets back up before eating a hook to KO.


Danny's closest comparable feats are those things he did without the Iron Fist, yet still had chi ampage.


There's literally no way to gague a "No chi" Danny, because chi is life force, and he'd be dead without it.


So what can we do, except bring in any feats except those where he's actively channeling an Iron Fist?

Or we do the same we do with every other character on the threads who falls in the same category, and say Danny doesn't have the feats to compete.

Which is true.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or we do the same we do with every other character on the threads who falls in the same category, and say Danny doesn't have the feats to compete.

Which is true.

That comes down to the post makers intent.

Supermutant is knowledgeable about Iron Fist, so I assume he intended chi to mean "Iron Fist".


Otherwise, yeah, no feats means no match.


It's not Bane's win either. It's just an impossible criteria.

Supermutant
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I always thought it was empty - no Venom.

So comparing here:

With the previous issue:

But I guess its iffy.

yeah it appears to be two different venom tanks. One that has an outside gauge and one that does not. Good eye though as Bane has worn his injection device before but not used it, to fool his opponents that he was on venom. The change in tanks does make it confusing.

Originally posted by cdtm
That comes down to the post makers intent.

Supermutant is knowledgeable about Iron Fist, so I assume he intended chi to mean "Iron Fist".


Otherwise, yeah, no feats means no match.


It's not Bane's win either. It's just an impossible criteria.

Well I did say "no chi amping" and not just no chi. Just like n52 has venom in his body without a recent dosing, here he can't get anymore than what's normally in his body.

So basically no iron fist and no venom.

bdsm I gave you the perfect setup to mention Danny's skilled showings and his high durability. I was sure his beatdown of the Cat would have been mention by you. Showings like that where he didn't chi-amp (iron-fist) at all.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
yeah it appears to be two different venom tanks. One that has an outside gauge and one that does not. Good eye though as Bane has worn his injection device before but not used it, to fool his opponents that he was on venom. The change in tanks does make it confusing.



Well I did say "no chi amping" and not just no chi. Just like n52 has venom in his body without a recent dosing, here he can't get anymore than what's normally in his body.

So basically no iron fist and no venom.

bdsm I gave you the perfect setup to mention Danny's skilled showings and his high durability. I was sure his beatdown of the Cat would have been mention by you. Showings like that where he didn't chi-amp (iron-fist) at all.


The trouble is I can't say for sure he wasn't chi amping against Cat.


Or anyone else, ever. It's just not something he's ever been unable to do. It's kind of like asking "No Spider powers for Spiderman.

it's worse. You can nullify his powers, or Cap's Super Soldier Serum, but you can never really take away Danny's ability to use chi.

Hell, he taught Colleen Wing rudimentary chi amping from a mind meld, unintentionally.

Senor Cage
Originally posted by Vanguard
I think Danny. Even though he has no magic, i think his training was better. But Bane has a chance.

Bane is superior at tactics/strategy. Plus, he easily went through a few Talons at once. Talons that troubled/beat Batman. I think Bane wins, especially since he has better damage soak.

cdtm
Come to think of it, I was wrong when I told Dark that Matt, Elektra, or Spidey are holding Danny down.


Matt and Elektra can chi amp too. And Spidey is Spidey.

Supermutant
no iron fist then for clarity purposes. But against the cat in the rematch he was still depleted from using two iron fists to free himself from restraints IIRC. So that victory was all Danny's skill.

low level chi amping or chi focusing isn't that big of a deal. Taskmaster has done it, so has Bane in prison, he developed his own kind of meditation internal focus techniques.

Batman can do similar too, it just not highlighted as much or call specifically chi in dc all the time.

cdtm
Originally posted by Senor Cage
Bane is superior at tactics/strategy. Plus, he easily went through a few Talons at once. Talons that troubled/beat Batman. I think Bane wins, especially since he has better damage soak.


How do you figure?

Danny's soaked a nuke.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
no iron fist then for clarity purposes. But against the cat in the rematch he was still depleted from using two iron fists to free himself from restraints. So that victory was all Danny's skill.


I bet Cat was chi amping too.


It's kind of a common thing with martial artists. The Iron Fist and regular chi are two separate lines of powerup.

Remember when Creed absolutely kicked Danny's ass, because the Iron Fist wasn't working right? Yet he still super charged his punch from "Welled up chi", as the writing put it?

Senor Cage
Originally posted by cdtm
How do you figure?

Danny's soaked a nuke.

Bane was able to soak the batkick.

Supermutant
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Bane beats Catwoman

He did Bane: Conquest #5

https://i.imgur.com/kKpav6vh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ufeuQD5h.jpg

The only thing that made her even a nuisance, was that she tazed him a couple of times in that issue. And then ran away.

I believe that had a fight or skirmish of some sort pre52 where Bane manhandled her. Bane had something like a crush on her and Black Canary for a short while, so he would significantly hold back against them.

cdtm
So Danny beat up The Cat. thumb up

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
How do you figure?

Danny's soaked a nuke.

But he used IF then?

Originally posted by cdtm
Yet he still super charged his punch from "Welled up chi", as the writing put it?

Not just the writing. We had art to back it up, too.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
But he used IF then?



Not just the writing. We had art to back it up, too.


Not the nuke I was thinking of.


Think way earlier. Think Claremont.

StiltmanFTW
You mentioned it before, but scans/issue number would be helpful.

For some feats, he's still channeling the power of the Iron Fist technique.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Think Claremont.

PS. Claremont wrote Contest of Champions II cool

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
I'm talking about his feats without venom.

We should list those later.

Originally posted by Supermutant
He did Bane: Conquest #5

Thanks.

Never had any doubt he could do that.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You mentioned it before, but scans/issue number would be helpful.

For some feats, he's still channeling the power of the Iron Fist technique.


Too lazy. Every time I did the scan and references thing people ignored it.


Like the zillion times I put out the very first Iron Fist and Power Man team up where he swipes aside something like 50 steel piercing military grade fletchettes at point blank range with his fingertips. That's like doing the same with a normal machinegun, since the only real difference between fletchettes and bullets is the type of ammo they are, and a gun remains a gun.


Was expecting to get that feat argued down because of the different ammo type, but no. Fletchettes are like mini darts, in real life they exit the barrel of a gun at bullet speeds and then slow down as they travel by air drag due to their design. I would have argued the range the feat happened at, and the fact these are fictional fletchettes that penetrate steel, something no fletchette in real life can do.

Nothing to argue, if no ones even looking.

StiltmanFTW
It got countered by other characters blocking similar projectiles at similar range.

It's a nice feat for sure, got ignored only once you started abusing it and reposting for the nth time.

As for the "nuke" feat you're talking about here, don't tell me it's Nitro again?

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It got countered by other characters blocking similar projectiles at similar range.

It's a nice feat for sure, got ignored only once you started abusing it and reposting for the nth time.

As for the "nuke" feat you're talking about here, don't tell me it's Nitro again?


Who ever knocked aside similar protectiles with their fingertips?


Never seen anything even remotely comparable to that one. Elektra has those neat sai blocks, but that's nowhere near as impressive as using your finger tips.


Especially when the ammo is pointy mini darts instead of rounded bullets. Think about how easy it would be to prick your finger on the tips of those things.



No, not Nitro. The villian who was a walking nuclear reactor in meltdown. Neutron, maybe?


He melted lead bars, so totally comparable to fighting a living nuclear reactor.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Who ever knocked aside similar protectiles with their fingertips?

He didn't use his fingertips.

He used his whole hands.

Originally posted by cdtm
Neutron, maybe?

You have a really bad habit of incorrectly guessing character names, writers and books.

Which is hilarious, considering you've spent 13 years here stick out tongue

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
So Danny beat up The Cat. thumb up

Bane beat up Nightwing Pre-52 and without venom.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
Bane beat up Nightwing Pre-52 and without venom.

On two different occasions, I think?

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He didn't use his fingertips.

He used his whole hands.



You have a really bad habit of incorrectly guessing character names, writers and books.

Which is hilarious, considering you've spent 13 years here stick out tongue




https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/6/60791/3668125-5693808124-36680.jpg


Using the whole hand makes it more impressive. smile


They're darts. Darts that can pierce steel.

cdtm
Ravager's the nuclear guys name?


I was way off.


https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Iron-Fist-1975/Issue-3?id=39870



Point stands he was melting lead bars and pouring nuclear radiation into Danny. And he survived a tacnuke level explosion, before using the Iron Fist to heal up.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
On two different occasions, I think?

Yeah one time he quickly koed him. The other he ate NW's kick and owned him before Bruce stepped in for the save.

Galan007
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I always thought it was empty - no Venom.

So comparing here:
https://i.postimg.cc/zBchCHH6/RCO011-1463396272.jpg

With the previous issue:
https://i.postimg.cc/Hn8yBWQx/RCO008-1463396213.jpg

But I guess its iffy. Venom was probably still in his system there. Same arc shows him going through a rough detox period when the venom begins wearing off.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
Yeah one time he quickly koed him. The other he ate NW's kick and owned him before Bruce stepped in for the save.

thumb up

As for owning obscure martial artists (you know, the types cdtm seems to enjoy the most), he was venomless when he killed Judomaster, right?

cdtm
There's different Judomasters. Only way Bane could ever kill JSA Judomaster is if he's packing grenades.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
There's different Judomasters. Only way Bane could ever kill JSA Judomaster is if he's packing grenades.

New Judoshit emerged because Bane killed the old one smile

xXI_wing_IXx
Close fight.. Bane got an advantage, his speed and reflexes increase without his venom. Bane has also fought in prison for many years so in this adamantium cage fight he knows how to use environmental props and manipulation tricks effectively

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
New Judoshit emerged because Bane killed the old one smile


Is that the Birds of Prey one?


I kind of liked her. Way less pretentious and relatable then the JSA super kung fu chick.

StiltmanFTW
They are one and the same.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
They are one and the same.

laughing out loud

No powers and speaks engllish in BoP. Powers and speaks Japanese in JSA.


Got to love it.

MrMind
I still remember that time Bane beats everyone in arkham (including grundy) and just to lose to batman

Galan007
Headbutts are *the* ultimate dues ex ability. thumb up

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by MrMind
(including grundy)

Grundy who casually destroyed a giant statue in his fight against Gotham and his sister, yeah.

And he was teamed up with Amygdala, who was said to be superior to Killer Croc and King Shark in the new continuity.

Originally posted by Galan007
Headbutts are *the* ultimate dues ex ability. thumb up

Odin approves...

Supermutant
Originally posted by MrMind
I still remember that time Bane beats everyone in arkham (including grundy) and just to lose to batman

The headbutt lost has been basically retconned away. eek! Now Bane wanted to lose as part of his plan.

https://imgur.com/ueQcJvV
https://imgur.com/x25tMVQ

I guess King has to rectify how Batman could headbutt a venom up Bane into a ko. But non venom Bane would get right up from the same headbutt by Bruce ,and beat Bruce down ultimately breaking his back again.

Gotta love comics.

MrMind
Originally posted by Galan007
Headbutts are *the* ultimate dues ex ability. thumb up

it really is, Odin vs Galactus came to mind

Bane was beating the crap out of Batman like one issue before

overall Tom King does Bame justice, remember that time batman and catwoman trick Bane to fight venomless, while they were using gadgets so they can win.

Originally posted by Supermutant
The headbutt lost has been basically retconned away. eek! Now Bane wanted to lose as part of his plan.

https://imgur.com/ueQcJvV
https://imgur.com/x25tMVQ

I guess King has to rectify how Batman could headbutt a venom up Bane into a ko. But non venom Bane would get right up from the same headbutt by Bruce ,and beat Bruce down ultimately breaking his back again.

Gotta love comics.

Tom King is ex-CIA, he piss on nerds power level discussion, or basic understanding of characters...or writing in general.....
Cough cough...Heroes in Crisis...

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
The headbutt lost has been basically retconned away. eek! Now Bane wanted to lose as part of his plan.

https://imgur.com/ueQcJvV
https://imgur.com/x25tMVQ

I guess King has to rectify how Batman could headbutt a venom up Bane into a ko. But non venom Bane would get right up from the same headbutt by Bruce ,and beat Bruce down ultimately breaking his back again.

Gotta love comics.

Wow.

Honestly, I like it more than "I'm Batman" explanation thumb up

Supermutant, do you have a full list of non-venom Bane feats? His wins/performances against named characters, I mean.

cdtm
Never saw a problem with the headbutt.


Chalked it up to hitting the right nerve. The same way T'challa took Cage down.

cdtm
And I still say Danny beats Bane with one arm tied behind his back.


It's all about the speed. Even if Bane beats him overall in white whales, it's just a bad matchup for a guy with nothing but toughness and strength, against another guy with roughly comparable toughness and strength, but also Spidey like agility, speed, and reflex's.


And for the record, I think Elektra would walk all over Bane too.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
It's all about the speed.

What makes you think Bane is slow?

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What makes you think Bane is slow?



Because his big bullet feat is soaking them up into his big muscles. smile


Far as I know, Bane's always been a bruiser. Not necessarily slow, but certainly no Deathstroke or Daredevil.

StiltmanFTW
His base speed and agility made Hourman think he was on Venom.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
His base speed and agility made Hourman think he was on Venom.


The kid, right?



Like I said, not necessarily slow. Maybe he has a good sprint, and can tag your you.


But we're talking next level agility here. The kind Daken used on Skaar.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wow.

Honestly, I like it more than "I'm Batman" explanation thumb up

Supermutant, do you have a full list of non-venom Bane feats? His wins/performances against named characters, I mean.

Not anymore sadly. But just a few from memory, Bane has beaten Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Azrael, Judomaster 1, Catman all off of venom. Also stalemated Hourman 1 & 2 without it.

cdtm
I remember Hourman 2 batting him into a tree, only for Bane to beg him off that he wasn't there to fight.


Wouldn't call that a stalemate.


Azrael beating him I'd like to see. I read their rematch's in his early post Azbats series, and he lost both. One by falling off a damn cliff, granted, but the second was a more embarrassing slip on a train into eating a kick.

Supermutant
Danny will get tagged and grabbed the same way Cap, Deadpool, Diamondback has done it.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
The kid, right?



Like I said, not necessarily slow. Maybe he has a good sprint, and can tag your you.


But we're talking next level agility here. The kind Daken used on Skaar.

Daken used pheromones.

Bane dodged Bruce's batarangs, blocked Tim's and even caught Jason's.

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
I remember Hourman 2 batting him into a tree, only for Bane to beg him off that he wasn't there to fight.


Wouldn't call that a stalemate.


Azrael beating him I'd like to see. I read their rematch's in his early post Azbats series, and he lost both. One by falling off a damn cliff, granted, but the second was a more embarrassing slip on a train into eating a kick.

Are you sure you are remembering correctly? Anyway I'm talking about when Bane had captured Hourman 1 and battled them both in a factory.

Also Bane beat Azrael and captured him before they had the fight you described.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
Not anymore sadly. But just a few from memory, Bane has beaten Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Azrael, Judomaster 1, Catman all off of venom. Also stalemated Hourman 1 & 2 without it.

What about that time when he one-shotted Man-Bat?

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Daken used pheromones.

Bane dodged Bruce's batarangs, blocked Tim's and even caught Jason's.


Talking when Daken practically walked on top of flying rocks.

cdtm
And as far as Bane goes, that's about as impressive as Frank Castle shooting Matt's baton out of the air. Or even being fast enough on the draw to tranc him point blank.


Impressive feat, doesn't mean he can keep up with Matt in a contest of speed and agility.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Talking when Daken practically walked on top of flying rocks.

He definitely displayed some agility there, but he was also messing with Skaar's perception at the same time.

Dodging random debris flying around is better than reacting to batarangs from the whole Batfamily?

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What about that time when he one-shotted Man-Bat?

Don't remember but it was before salvation run and it was definitely a 1- shot punch. He did something similar during Arkham war to manbat another one shot but he was on venom then.

He beat Thomas Wayne Batman in a physical sparring match.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
Are you sure you are remembering correctly? Anyway I'm talking about when Bane had captured Hourman 1 and battled them both in a factory.

Also Bane beat Azrael and captured him before they had the fight you described.



I'm thinking about a different one. It's the one where Junior blows his load, and then the clock runs out and Bane laughs at him about how weak he is, before he rescues him.

Supermutant
By the way Thomas Wayne beat down a team consisting of Cassanrda Cain, Damian Wayne, Tim Drake, Batwoman, Batgirl, Huntress, and Signal.

StiltmanFTW
After letting them land their free shots, lol.

So yeah, Bane beating Thomas was a crazy feat thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by Supermutant
The headbutt lost has been basically retconned away. eek! Now Bane wanted to lose as part of his plan.

https://imgur.com/ueQcJvV
https://imgur.com/x25tMVQ Completely forgot about that. thumb up

Stoic
So what's the decision here? Bane at his best beats Danny at his average?

cdtm
Originally posted by Stoic
So what's the decision here? Bane at his best beats Danny at his average?



Sure seems that way. laughing

StiltmanFTW
Nobody cared enough to make a convincing argument for IF winning.

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nobody cared enough to make a convincing argument for IF winning.

thumb up

bsdm did a horrible job thumb down I don't think he's even a real iron fist fan.

cdtm
The op scans make argument enough.


Amped Diamondback would chew up and spit out Bane (Banes good and all, he isn't slapping around Luke Cage, Matt, and Jessica Jones all at the same time), and we saw what happened when he tried to break Danny's back like Bane did Batmans. thumb up


Just switch Batman with Iron Fist there, what do you suppose would happen?

DarkSaint85
Didn't Danny use chi amping in the scans?

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Didn't Danny use chi amping in the scans?

Thread op already ok'd it, as long as it isn't a full on Iron Fist.


Which Danny DID use, in a scan before the ones posted. But hey, he picked them. stick out tongue

cdtm
Btw Darksaint, Diamondback broke Danny's back exactly like Bane broke the Bat. He was amped on magic drugs at the time, making him stronger then Luke Cage.


Only Danny got back up, and beat him down.


Stuff like that is why I think he's lowballed something fierce. I mean, even Tom King Batman had to painstakingly pop his spine back into place, or whatever stupid thing he did. He didn't just ignore it and go on fighting (And Danny did ignore it, as he claimed he was in tremendous pain afterwards.)

cdtm
Just want to touch on the "no chi" thing again, and why I think it's an unsustainable stipulation compared to Bane's "No venom'.


The fact is, just about every martial artists at the top tier uses chi. Lady Shiva chi amps, and this is provable by scans.


Matt Murdoch chi amps. Stick taught him how.

Shang Chi chi amps, just see Avengers Worlds 3 and Gorgon vs Shang.


I'm not sure about Elektra so much, but I bet she can manipulate chi too.


Hell, even Colleen Wing chi amps, ever since Danny melded with her mind in Claremonts Iron Fist run.


My point is, asking for a martial arts fight with no chi amping isn't impossible, but it is very character specific. We know Batman and Steve don't use chi, as far as I know.


We know Shang Chi and Danny Rand DO.



So how can you have a fight with these two characters and ban chi amping, and expect any "clean" feats? They probably buff up their stats on everything they do, their entire history becomes suspect.


You just can't do it. Chi manipulation is as much a part of their genetic makeup as solar energy is to Superman.

DarkSaint85
I think OP wanted to see if Danny had any feats on pure skill.

Guess not.

StiltmanFTW
Yeah, you can't completely deprive Danny of his chi abilities.

1) Every living being has chi.

2) Even without the IF technique, he still does have battle-effective chi abilities, such as enhancing his strikes.

We can still limit him, using only those showings when he doesn't use chi amping in any obvious way, though.

Such as his rematch against Wrecking Crew (excluding the IF usage at the end against Thunderball).

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, you can't completely deprive Danny of his chi abilities.

1) Every living being has chi.

2) Even without the IF technique, he still does have battle-effective chi abilities, such as enhancing his strikes.

We can still limit him, using only those showings when he doesn't use chi amping in any obvious way, though.

Such as his rematch against Wrecking Crew (excluding the IF usage at the end against Thunderball).


Where do you think the Diamonback fight falls?


Because if those little yellow effects disqualify it, Supermutant has to know they were there in Danny's rematch with Cat too.

StiltmanFTW
When he's intercepting Diamondback's punch and putting his arm in a painful joint lock or whatever, it's certainly a display of pure skill.

When he's kicking him in the mouth, it's certainly a display of IF technique applied to his foot.

As for him ignoring his back being broken, it was retarded, as he felt the effects immediately afterwards and needed medical attention, iirc.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
When he's intercepting Diamondback's punch and putting his arm in a painful joint lock or whatever, it's certainly a display of pure skill.

When he's kicking him in the mouth, it's certainly a display of IF technique applied to his foot.

As for him ignoring his back being broken, it was retarded, as he felt the effects immediately afterwards and needed medical attention, iirc.


I just figured he strengthened up the spine with a little Iron Fist juice.


Would make it usable without risking further damage, but wouldn't actually fix it.


Of course, one can ask why not simply chi heal. Either Bendis ignored that he can, or maybe figured he hasn't shown his healing can fix a broken spine.

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Where do you think the Diamonback fight falls?


Because if those little yellow effects disqualify it, Supermutant has to know they were there in Danny's rematch with Cat too.

The artist used that effect just to show impact it seems to me. That's why Sable and Paladin fights had that as well.

https://imgur.com/a/bX8EHId

Anyways not trying to complicate things. Was just looking for this:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think OP wanted to see if Danny had any feats on pure skill.

As such Danny's fights with the Cat (both of them) are good examples of him using skill and not the iron fist. IIRC he fight Mr. X without the iron fist for most of it. I think cdtm mentioned a fight against the Steel Serpent.

Back to Bane, I think people see him fight brickish on venom a lot and thinks he doesn't have much skill. But in addition to being self taught and league of assassins training, he also utilizes grappling, wrestling, and submission type holds. He may have actually trained with Bruce when he thought they may have been brothers. But Bane has showed a lot of skill in his fight off of venom.

cdtm
He was pretty good with a sword.


Ras was better of course, but Ras showing off proves Bane was good enough to showboat on.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
The artist used that effect just to show impact it seems to me. That's why Sable and Paladin fights had that as well.

https://imgur.com/a/bX8EHId

Anyways not trying to complicate things. Was just looking for this:



As such Danny's fights with the Cat (both of them) are good examples of him using skill and not the iron fist. IIRC he fight Mr. X without the iron fist for most of it. I think cdtm mentioned a fight against the Steel Serpent.

Back to Bane, I think people see him fight brickish on venom a lot and thinks he doesn't have much skill. But in addition to being self taught and league of assassins training, he also utilizes grappling, wrestling, and submission type holds. He may have actually trained with Bruce when he thought they may have been brothers. But Bane has showed a lot of skill in his fight off of venom.


Yeah, a few fights with Davos actually.


To be fair, he JUST got done defeating Spidey first, who fired off several punch's before he got caught. But they had a rematch that was all Danny vs Davos with his Iron Fist, and it was a conclusive loss.


One thing I like about the first fight is how it shows off Davos's super human abilities. Peter jump kicks him, gets caught, gets swung around by the ankle in to Misty and/Colleen, and finally gets thrown horizontally into a tree. Can't see Matt Murdoch pulling that one off.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
IIRC he fight Mr. X without the iron fist for most of it.

Nah.

He tried to kick X.

X blocked it. And acted out of character, telling Danny what his power is.

Then Danny used the drunken style, charged his palm with IF energy and struck X's throat.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Matt Murdoch

Who? laughing out loud

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nah.

He tried to kick X.

X blocked it. And acted out of character, telling Danny what his power is.

Then Danny used the drunken style, charged his palm with IF energy and struck X's throat.


Could have been chi energy, maybe. Or just another artistic license to show a strike.


I mean, he jammed fingers into his throat. Pretty sure a regular strike would serve as well as a charged one.


And how would that "Drunken style" even stop TP? Would it work on other things, like the Spidey Sense or Midnighter computer?

Supermutant
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Nah.

He tried to kick X.

X blocked it. And acted out of character, telling Danny what his power is.

Then Danny used the drunken style, charged his palm with IF energy and struck X's throat.

lol yeah but he didn't used the iron fist until the end. Up until the very end would be a non iron fist skill fight showings.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Could have been chi energy, maybe. Or just another artistic license to show a strike.

No.

It had both glow and was leaving energy trail, it was clear he IF charged it.

If you can't tell the difference between impact effect art and Iron Fist technique, then maybe you should stop discussing anything Rand-related.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
lol yeah but he didn't used the iron fist until the end. Up until the very end would be a non iron fist skill fight showings.


And, I mean, it was a strike to the throat.


Seriously, what would it have changed if he didn't use an Iron Fist?


Hell, how did he not KILL him striking such a vulnerable area? Not like he needed the extra power.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
lol yeah but he didn't used the iron fist until the end. Up until the very end would be a non iron fist skill fight showings.

Sure, can't deny that.

Danny just got himself a whole panel of a feat thanks to you.

Careful or cdtm will lose his job... laughing out loud

Supermutant
lol he needs all the help

StiltmanFTW
Was Bane using Venom during Salvation Run?

Supermutant
Yeah when he punched out Mammoth. and tanked being hit by lightning defeating both Thunder and Lightning.

Bane isn't above fighting dirty when necessary. He did take Mammoth down w/out venom lol.

https://i.imgur.com/kBSSvV0.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
Yeah when he punched out Mammoth. and tanked being hit by lightning defeating both Thunder and Lightning.

But wasn't that retconned as Bane just wearing his equipment out of habit?

That part always confused me.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Bane isn't above fighting dirty when necessary. He did take Mammoth down w/out venom lol.

https://i.imgur.com/kBSSvV0.jpg

Mammoth was still fighting after that, but it was a great scene.

MrMind
Originally posted by Supermutant
Yeah when he punched out Mammoth. and tanked being hit by lightning defeating both Thunder and Lightning.

Bane isn't above fighting dirty when necessary. He did take Mammoth down w/out venom lol.

https://i.imgur.com/kBSSvV0.jpg

ahh good old secret six

Gail Simone is one of those writer who has no concept of power levels. She would let Catman beat Green Lanterns if she could get away with it

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Sure, can't deny that.

Danny just got himself a whole panel of a feat thanks to you.

Careful or cdtm will lose his job... laughing out loud


That's no feat. It's PIS.


Danny's so much faster and stronger then Mr. X, it should look like Goku vs Krillin.

StiltmanFTW
Faster? How?

X blitzed Taskmaster, who you just argued to be superhuman smile

Stronger? Yeah, right. Danny has no strength feats to speak of.

MrMind
he cracked the helicarrier, but that was chi amped no?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by MrMind
he cracked the helicarrier, but that was chi amped no?

He applied the Iron Fist to his karate chop, yes.

Danny's striking power doesn't make him strong.

This thread would be far better if cdtm was dead right feats were referenced.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Faster? How?

X blitzed Taskmaster, who you just argued to be superhuman smile

Stronger? Yeah, right. Danny has no strength feats to speak of.

He grabbed Spidey out of mid air in one hand and threw him.


There you go, I just referenced a panel of feat. thumb up

DarkSaint85
Spidey doesn't weigh that much though...

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Spidey doesn't weigh that much though...


167 lbs.


I'm sure Bane could do that with one finger.

But I'm arguing over Danny being stronger then Mr. X. smile

DarkSaint85
Mr X has thrown Wolverine though.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Mr X has thrown Wolverine though.


He has?


So much for that theory.


Wait, how much does Logan weigh again? I know he's heavier then a normal person, but Danny did his feat one handed, and in a mid dive kick, so... Still could be more impressive, depending on how he did it.



....I'm splitting hairs here, aren't I...

cdtm
Ok, guess its time to use this:


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/6/60791/5461328-power%20man%20and%20iron%20fist%20%282016-%29%20002-008.jpg


BT is tougher then Rhino. Because Spidey beat down Rhino.


He could never even slow BT down.

DarkSaint85
And Bane beat Batman senseless. Which an enraged amped WW couldn't do even when he had no armour and was injured.

So Bane hits harder than an amped bloodlusted WW.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
Wait, how much does Logan weigh again?

More than Parker. Even without his adamantium.

Handbooks? 300 pounds. 195 pounds w/o the metal.

And if we want to use on panel statements only, his skeleton alone might weigh 300 pounds, if we take Wolverine's statement literally.

Supermutant
Black Tarantula very nearly koed Iron Fist with one sneak attack kick from behind.

https://i.imgur.com/l3Miw4O.jpg

By the way didn't Bullseye beat BT in prison?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
But wasn't that retconned as Bane just wearing his equipment out of habit?

That part always confused me.

Mammoth was still fighting after that, but it was a great scene.

Venom Bane was taking in to Mammoth. Two different occasions below.

https://imgur.com/KgT82bD
https://imgur.com/dd1R6qo

That's a good point about Salvation Run. Bane was working for the Suicide Squad at the time. He certainly wasn't prepared to be teleported to an alien prison planet. IIRC the villains stayed there for about a week. Its highly doubtful that Bane would have a week supply of venom on his person. I bet the writers didn't even think about that. I guess one could say that Bane rationed it out, but they were fighting constantly on the planet against the planet defense and themselves. So its quite possible that he could have ran out, although it was never address to my knowledge.

cdtm
Originally posted by Supermutant
Black Tarantula very nearly koed Iron Fist with one sneak attack kick from behind.

https://i.imgur.com/l3Miw4O.jpg

By the way didn't Bullseye beat BT in prison?



Venom Bane was taking in to Mammoth. Two different occasions below.

https://imgur.com/KgT82bD
https://imgur.com/dd1R6qo

That's a good point about Salvation Run. Bane was working for the Suicide Squad at the time. He certainly wasn't prepared to be teleported to an alien prison planet. IIRC the villains stayed there for about a week. Its highly doubtful that Bane would have a week supply of venom on his person. I bet the writers didn't even think about that. I guess one could say that Bane rationed it out, but they were fighting constantly on the planet against the planet defense and themselves. So its quite possible that he could have ran out, although it was never address to my knowledge.


No idea on Bullseye. Sounds like a lot of PIS, since he can't even beat up Frank Castle.


And BT ALMOST knocking him out. Meaning he failed to knock him out.

From.a sneak attack from behind, no less. Not bad considering BT literally raped Spidey not once, but twice, and tanked his best shots (Shots which took down Rhino and Firelord. Yeah, I went there, damn the rules. stick out tongue )

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
By the way didn't Bullseye beat BT in prison?

Don't remember, but if so, wouldn't BT be depowered there?

Superhuman prisons work like that in the MU.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Venom Bane was taking in to Mammoth. Two different occasions below.

https://imgur.com/KgT82bD
https://imgur.com/dd1R6qo

That's a good point about Salvation Run. Bane was working for the Suicide Squad at the time. He certainly wasn't prepared to be teleported to an alien prison planet. IIRC the villains stayed there for about a week. Its highly doubtful that Bane would have a week supply of venom on his person. I bet the writers didn't even think about that. I guess one could say that Bane rationed it out, but they were fighting constantly on the planet against the planet defense and themselves. So its quite possible that he could have ran out, although it was never address to my knowledge.

thumb up

He performed much better against Mammoth there than in Secret Six.

But that alone is not enough of a proof of whether or not he used Venom. Could've been a high showing, like Batman's strikes affecting Despero, for example.

Originally posted by Supermutant
I bet the writers didn't even think about that.

Yeah, most writers don't give a shit.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Bane beat Batman senseless. Which an enraged amped WW couldn't do even when he had no armour and was injured.

So Bane hits harder than an amped bloodlusted WW.


Bring it full circle DS, what value does Bane beating down Grundy or Miraclo amped Hourmen or whoever have then?

DarkSaint85
Even more value.

My point is one doesn't want to go the ABC route with Bane.

Supermutant
yeah BT was on power suppressing drugs when Bullseye beat him. But Danny was in no condition to fight after the 1-hit kick by BT. Sort of goes against popping right back up from a back breaker. Although then all Bane would do is break his back again.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Even more value.

My point is one doesn't want to go the ABC route with Bane.


How do you figure?


Your point about Wonder Woman and Batman can apply just the same the other way. If Bane beats up Batman, he has no business tanking Wonder Woman.


And the same circular logic applies to Danny as well. He beat Spidey, who beat f'n Firelord.


It's too bad we don't have a rule about that kind of thing. A rule that states if Spidey beats the crap out of Firelord, it just may be bullshit.


Because from where I'm standing, that's what most of the arguments backing Bane look like. He beat Grundy, he beat Mammoth, he stalemates Miraclo twins.


Seems legit.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
f'n Firelord

Featless glass cannon.

And Pete needed 2-3 issues to do that, lol.

Bane fought Batman w/ Superman's powers.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
How do you figure?


Your point about Wonder Woman and Batman can apply just the same the other way. If Bane beats up Batman, he has no business tanking Wonder Woman.


And the same circular logic applies to Danny as well. He beat Spidey, who beat f'n Firelord.


It's too bad we don't have a rule about that kind of thing. A rule that states if Spidey beats the crap out of Firelord, it just may be bullshit.


Because from where I'm standing, that's what most of the arguments backing Bane look like. He beat Grundy, he beat Mammoth, he stalemates Miraclo twins.


Seems legit.

In short, let's draw the line so that Bane is below IF thumb up

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Featless glass cannon.

And Pete needed 2-3 issues to do that, lol.

Bane fought Batman w/ Superman's powers.


He broke Surfers board and tanked hits from Thor..


So at least one actual feat.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, let's draw the line so that Bane is below IF thumb up

And what line is that again? That we're redrawing from?


A line where Bane can fight Superman empowered Batman without Venom, and Danny couldn't hurt Luke Cage with a full powered Iron Fist?

cdtm
And onto a different subject:


Should the Wrecking Crew beatdown be accepted as a pure skill feat?


Put another way, can Matt Murdock do the same thing, sans the Iron Fist finisher.


I mean, my head canon has him seriously amping him to knock them out, Iron Fist art or no.


But if he can KO them with pressure points, thar should apply to his peers as well. Shang Chi, Daredevil, Shiva.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
He broke Surfers board and tanked hits from Thor..


So at least one actual feat.

A tear in the ocean of mediocrity.

Originally posted by cdtm
And onto a different subject:


Should the Wrecking Crew beatdown be accepted as a pure skill feat?


Put another way, can Matt Murdock do the same thing, sans the Iron Fist finisher.


I mean, my head canon has him seriously amping him to knock them out, Iron Fist art or no.


But if he can KO them with pressure points, thar should apply to his peers as well. Shang Chi, Daredevil, Shiva.

Yes, it's a skill feat, imho. Excluding Thunderball, of course.

Hardly the first time Crew got their asses handed to them by a street leveler.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
A tear in the ocean of mediocrity.



Yes, it's a skill feat, imho. Excluding Thunderball, of course.

Hardly the first time Crew got their asses handed to them by a street leveler.

Is that so.


Who else beat them down? (Cap doesn't count)

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
Is that so.


Who else beat them down? (Cap doesn't count)

The Punisher with b-d list villain gear. Two laser blasts and gas bombs took them all down.

https://imgur.com/a/QQ1hLwo

Spider-Man has casually 1-shot Bulldozer.

https://i.imgur.com/C8aJINv.jpg

Toxin who is listed on the same tier here as Iron-Fist easily took down the Wrecker and Piledriver simultaneously. Hit Wrecker with his own crow bar and made sure the authorities took them into custody.

https://imgur.com/4K1UGW8
https://imgur.com/9pPdlcs

Luke Cage solo has beaten the Wrecker (full power IIRC).

Hawkeye has owned the Wrecker and Piledriver by himself. Seriously these guys deserve a disrespect thread for all of their jobbing.

And here another one of Luke Cage and the New Avengers basically taking turns beating down the jobbing crew, red hood and co. Its funny that Wrecker states Cage shouldn't be kicking his ass like that. lol Among other things Iron fist smacks Thunderball with a chair. These clowns are like comedy relief goons. Too much ownage to post it all.

https://imgur.com/a/E9YCizP

DarkSaint85
To add:

Bada has taken Thunderball out:
https://i.imgur.com/ZH4wos8.jpg

Piledriver vs Nightcrawler:
https://i.imgur.com/jGEvpGa.jpg

Am pretty sure Old Lace is just a 'normal' raptor in terms of strength/biting power. Unsure on the Nightcrawler scene, but damn, it shouldn't even tickle.

StiltmanFTW
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/84761/1754417-hawkeye.jpg

Supermutant
yeah the runaways defeated Wrecking Crew + Excavator pretty hilariously.

this is fun

https://i.imgur.com/Ntg2U6jl.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Don't forget about the time when Wrecking Crew busted free from their prison.

They ganged up on Clint and beat him senseless --- but dude wasn't even crippled... even though they still had their powers, lol.

Even Rhino mocks the Crew for being cowards and losers. And Rhino is the Jobber Supreme of the MU.

cdtm
This gets even funnier when you think about how Thor put effort into beating them.

Supermutant
Originally posted by cdtm
This gets even funnier when you think about how Thor put effort into beating them.

Tbf they have good moments like all jobbers, but those moments are few and far in between. Grundy has been a team buster at time or has given Superman a hard time. But than Green Arrow comes and defeats him. The worst thing you can be in comics is an unskilled brick. Street level heroes and those less powerful will dance around you and own you with the environment and whatnot a majority of the time.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
This gets even funnier when you think about how Thor put effort into beating them.

There is a damn good reason why Thor is the most ridiculed superhero on this message board.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Supermutant
Tbf they have good moments like all jobbers, but those moments are few and far in between. Grundy has been a team buster at time or has given Superman a hard time. But than Green Arrow comes and defeats him. The worst thing you can be in comics is an unskilled brick. Street level heroes and those less powerful will dance around you and own you with the environment and whatnot a majority of the time.

By the way, great scans from the New Avengers. Almost forgot how much ownage there was, lol.

IIRC, that's not the only comic from that run in which the Crew got humiliated by the NA...

Wrecker had *one* good showing on the beginning of NA volume 1 (but a lot of it was taken away once it was revealed Veranke's pheromones were affecting her team) and it's gone downhill for him rapidly since then.

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