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ROTS Yoda vs. Vader at his peak.

Who would win?

Vader one shots.

Yoda.

Vader wins, imo.

Where saber skill is concerned, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in canon.

Where the Force is concerned, I would argue that Vader has better displays of power(aside from Yoda's mountain feat, which is the epitome of an outlier.)

Yoda destroys.

Vader.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda destroys.

im inclined to give it to Yoda, anything Disney has to say about Star Wars I refuse to recognize

Yoda wins, but Vader gives him a good fight.

Lord Vader.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda destroys. How?

This is Vaders fight to lose.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where the Force is concerned, I would argue that Vader has better displays of power(aside from Yoda's mountain feat, which is the epitome of an outlier.) Yoda also lifted the X-wing easily.

Yoda of course

What's the actual argument for Yoda?

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Yoda also lifted the X-wing easily. Sure, that's probably his best TK feat in canon, outside of the outlier mountain showing.

But Vader can casually lift/throw AT-STs:
https://i.imgur.com/CwzXMNG.jpg

Which are about the same weight as an X-Wing, if memory serves.

Yoda's mountainn feat has circimstances and is not vey quantifiable because of the nature of that mountain. We don't even know if it's a TK feat.

Originally posted by Sheev
What's the actual argument for Yoda? Faster, more powerful, and far wiser than Vader. Vader never reached Yodas level. Look at how Luke destroyed him. Embarrassing.

Originally posted by Sheev
What's the actual argument for Yoda? Giving RotS Sheev a great fight, disarming Ventress easily with TK, lifting a mountain. Never seen Vader ragdolling anyone as easily as Yoda did Ventress

Yeah I think it's likely that Vader is a better duelist than Yoda by this point being above Sidious and all. It's likely that Vader is slower but he's also way tankier, would be able to take some hits from Yoda whereas Yoda will go down quicker.

Originally posted by Scizard
Yeah I think it's likely that Vader is a better duelist than Yoda by this point being above Sidious and all. It's likely that Vader is slower but he's also way tankier, would be able to take some hits from Yoda whereas Yoda will go down quicker. Vader is not above Sidious. Never. He blew that chance on Mustafar.

This is a canon thread so that no longer applies, give Vader a few more years and he would've surpassed ROTJ Sidious.

Originally posted by Scizard
This is a canon thread so that no longer applies, give Vader a few more years and he would've surpassed ROTJ Sidious. Speculative nonsense. Luke was better than his father in every way per RotJ.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Giving RotS Sheev a great fight, disarming Ventress easily with TK, lifting a mountain. Never seen Vader ragdolling anyone as easily as Yoda did Ventress Tbf...

Vader is canonically listed above Sheev in sabers. I know a lot of people hate that, but it is what it is.

I reckon peak Vader could do the same thing to season 1 Ventress.

The mountain feat is a massive outlier -- even if taken at face value, it was still implied to be a 'oneness' moment. A guy who can legitimately move mountains wouldn't be bothered by Senate pods.

Sidious lost to Windu in a duel and disarmed by yoda. He was formidable by his force powers more so than with a saber imo. Yoda was better than sidious with a saber too not that he won despite disarming Sidious due to his fl and pod positioning.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Further proof Kylo is the best duelist of all time.
lol I wish

I tought that the mountain feat was debunked. Something with the mountain being alive.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sidious lost to Windu in a duel and disarmed by yoda. He was formidable by his force powers more so than with a saber imo. Yoda was better than sidious with a saber too not that he won despite disarming Sidious due to his fl and pod positioning.
Agreed actually. I have Sidious below Yoda in sabers, but I think Vader might still win. It’s pretty telling that Yoda and Kenobi never attempted to kill Vader again, and there are quotes that say Vader was second in power only to Sidious.

Canon Sidious>Canon Yoda in sabers.

Originally posted by Sheev
Canon Sidious>Canon Yoda in sabers. He was disarmed in the films and beaten by Windu. Just accept it.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
lol I wish I am not joking. His training, his feats, his power, his obsessive quest for power. The new trilogy was more powerful in tech, hero, villains, mega weapinsm etc. it is the Disney way.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Agreed actually. I have Sidious below Yoda in sabers, but I think Vader might still win. It’s pretty telling that Yoda and Kenobi never attempted to kill Vader again, and there are quotes that say Vader was second in power only to Sidious. Hard to probably catch them alone. They were backed by an empire.

Yoda never disarmed Sidious in canon.

Vader doesn't scale down to Luke. Luke scales up to Vader. Even if that's far-fetched it is what the story demands it be, not like Star Wars really has a major focus on long training or power ranking anyway.

Pretty sure Yoda trained for weeks just to use the specific stone power on a specific stone mountain.

And Vader is said to be > Sidious as a duelist.

Originally posted by Scizard
Yoda never disarmed Sidious in canon.

Vader doesn't scale down to Luke. Luke scales up to Vader. Even if that's far-fetched it is what the story demands it be, not like Star Wars really has a major focus on long training or power ranking anyway.

Pretty sure Yoda trained for weeks just to use the specific stone power on a specific stone mountain.

And Vader is said to be > Sidious as a duelist. So you believe he just dropped his saber. Really.

Luke won Vader did not. Palpatine wanted the better, younger more powerful Skywalker not the older, worn out one.


Yoda never lost to Luke or Kenobi. Vader on the field of battle lost a lot.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you believe he just dropped his saber. Really.

Luke won Vader did not. Palpatine wanted the better, younger more powerful Skywalker not the older, worn out one.


Yoda never lost to Luke or Kenobi. Vader on the field of battle lost a lot.

In the canon ROTJ novelisation Vader is pushing back Luke until he uses the dark side, so it's only through a dark side amp that Vader is beaten.

Losing at the hand of Kenobi is 2 decades pre-prime, that had an advantage due to his familiarity with Anakin's form which he changed after his injuries.

If we're playing it like that I can just say oh yeah Yoda got knocked out by a bunch of kids throwning stones at him w/o mentioning the specific circumstances.

Originally posted by Scizard

And Vader is said to be > Sidious as a duelist.


Source never really specifies which iteration that is. But by ROTJ that's probably true. Yes. But ROTS Sidious still demolishes him. There's really no reason to think they wouldn't utilize the latest iteration of Sidious possible in that list.

Yes, but it'd be the last iteration of whoever you are talking about. Maul and Dooku are dead by the OT. Considering its OT Vader, no reason to think it wouldn't be OT Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Source never really specifies which iteration that is. But by ROTJ that's probably true. Yes. But ROTS Sidious still demolishes him. There's really no reason to think they wouldn't utilize the latest iteration of Sidious possible in that list.

The source is top 5 red lightsaber duelists. To me it's pretty clear they're referring to each duelist at their peak across all eras.

Honestly Vader, taking in how powerful he is in canon he wins. Question for those of you who disagree why would Yoda never go and face Vader after ROTS if he was more powerful? food for thought

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Source never really specifies which iteration that is. But by ROTJ that's probably true. Yes. But ROTS Sidious still demolishes him. There's really no reason to think they wouldn't utilize the latest iteration of Sidious possible in that list.

I would take it to be the height of their powers, not the same era.

I do think it's speculative to side with either, but with the wank Vader's been getting in canon along with just being a Sith Lord who actively fought several lightsaber duelists and battles over the course of over two decades I would argue that it is indeed very likely for Vader to have surpassed Yoda.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
The source is top 5 red lightsaber duelists. To me it's pretty clear they're referring to each duelist at their peak across all eras.

The feats just make that wholly inconsistent. Sidious destroys 3 of the top swordmasters in the Order's history in ROTS. Vader cannot even one-shot the likes of Ferren Barr.

Vader was massively pre prime when he fought Barr. Noone claims that 18 BBY Vader beats Yoda or Sidious. Not to mention that Sidious used a dark side confusion haze on the B team per canon sources. He also had the element of surprise.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Vader was massively pre prime when he fought Barr. Noone claims that 18 BBY Vader beats Yoda or Sidious. Not to mention that Sidious used a dark side confusion haze on the B team per canon sources. He also had the element of surprise.

Source for the confusion haze?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes, but it'd be the last iteration of whoever you are talking about. Maul and Dooku are dead by the OT. Considering its OT Vader, no reason to think it wouldn't be OT Sidious.

Now this is cope.

Yoda with difficulty

Originally posted by Scizard
In the canon ROTJ novelisation Vader is pushing back Luke until he uses the dark side, so it's only through a dark side amp that Vader is beaten.

Losing at the hand of Kenobi is 2 decades pre-prime, that had an advantage due to his familiarity with Anakin's form which he changed after his injuries.

If we're playing it like that I can just say oh yeah Yoda got knocked out by a bunch of kids throwning stones at him w/o mentioning the specific circumstances. Vader wanted him to channel his anger which ended in Vader being on his backside. Vader was raging against Kenobi in RotS yet he ended up losing so I do not care. I hear excuses.


Anakin had a familiarity with Kenobi as well. The bias of Vader fans only acknowledging it in his favor never the other way around. Both were familiar, Vader had an anger amp You yourself subscribe to but when he loses you sweep it all u dee the rug.


Yoda disarmed him. Sidious was fl or bust against the truly elite.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The feats just make that wholly inconsistent. Sidious destroys 3 of the top swordmasters in the Order's history in ROTS. Vader cannot even one-shot the likes of Ferren Barr.

Inconsistency? That's Star Wars for ya, right?

Canon is canon until something else comes out that says otherwise . Looking at feats and in universe sources are great, but often open for interpretation.Out of universe facts and statements come first and put any debate to rest.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Inconsistency? That's Star Wars for ya, right?

Canon is canon until something else comes out that says otherwise . Looking at feats and in universe sources are great, but often open for interpretation.Out of universe facts and statements come first and put any debate to rest.

No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.

https://i.imgur.com/k1cDtHJ.jpg

Matt Martin is a total idiot and everything he says should be discarded. BTW, the book doesn't say Vader>Sidious only that Vader is a better duelist so the entire convo is about an incorrect point anyway. Almost everyone here knows that Sidious would defeat Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader wanted him to channel his anger which ended in Vader being on his backside. Vader was raging against Kenobi in RotS yet he ended up losing so I do not care. I hear excuses.


Anakin had a familiarity with Kenobi as well. The bias of Vader fans only acknowledging it in his favor never the other way around. Both were familiar, Vader had an anger amp You yourself subscribe to but when he loses you sweep it all u dee the rug.


Yoda disarmed him. Sidious was fl or bust against the truly elite.

Evidence for Yoda disarming Sidious? Don't believe that's in any canon sources.

And, that's for the story regardless. Either way Vader pushes Luke back until he's amped.

And having familarity is what allows the duel to last so long, the losing part is just Anakin being a retarded, not that I care for even discussing this battle, it's two decades past and completely irrelevent.

Originally posted by Scizard
I would take it to be the height of their powers, not the same era. Of course. Why on earth would a "best of the best" list rank characters who are out of their prime?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Source for the confusion haze? Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018).

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.

https://i.imgur.com/k1cDtHJ.jpg It is true that multiple factors often dictate how a battle will play out. However, what the list establishes is that in terms of pure saber skill, Vader > Palpatine.

This is important because in canon, RotS Palpatine > RotS Yoda in sabers, as established in Galaxy of Adventures (2019):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kstNsp5n_eU&t=0m12s
" is even skilled enough with the dark side of the Force to defeat Jedi Grand Master Yoda in a lightsaber duel."

IOW, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in sabers. I know that a lot of people don't like the notion that Vader ultimately became a better swordsman than Palpatine/Yoda, but canon is canon... Moreover, the fact that canon Vader never lost any power/potential after the events of RotS(to the contrary, he became more powerful than ever) should help consolidate his ability to reach that level. /shrug

So all that's really left to decide here is who has the superior Force power in a combat scenario.


As for Matt Martin: he has flat-out stated that random writer comments are non-canon in and of themselves. Ultimately, published material and official storytelling are what dictate the canon facts:
https://i.imgur.com/2N8lfor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jeFfjrT.jpg

And everything mentioned so far on Vader's behalf comes from official storytelling.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, not really. Even if you take it at face value there are a ton of factors that go into these fights. Otherwise, you'd never have scenarios like Kanan beating Maul. Matt Martin agrees, take books like that with a grain of salt.

https://i.imgur.com/k1cDtHJ.jpg

I never said the list is "Jedi A will beat Jedi b every single time." Matt Martin has said so from your quote, and even Nic Gillard said so before him.

We are in agreement so many factors go into a fight and rarely does the more powerful/skill combatant ever actually win the fight.

Originally posted by Galan007 Of course. Why on earth would a "best of the best" list rank characters who are out of their prime?

Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader.




Maul appears to use the same ability on Ahsoka and it clearly doesn't lower skill levels to Padawan levels. +The databank still says he kills them before they can react.



No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of the Force. And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious. +Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda.



It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations.

Case in point the same list has Ventress above Savage when literally in the Clone Wars Ventress is clearly shown to be outmatched by him.

Originally posted by Scizard
Evidence for Yoda disarming Sidious? Don't believe that's in any canon sources.

And, that's for the story regardless. Either way Vader pushes Luke back until he's amped.

And having familarity is what allows the duel to last so long, the losing part is just Anakin being a retarded, not that I care for even discussing this battle, it's two decades past and completely irrelevent. The script I believe but logically howvekse woyld sidious lose his light saber.

Everything is for the story but your bias cannot dismiss it when it suits you. Anakin was arrogant in his power and ability. So you are saying despite Vader knowing anger makes you powerful he deliberately spurred an opponent who did not want to even fight him. So he is dumb still. All of it is canon but the excuses for losses needs to stop.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
I never said the list is "Jedi A will beat Jedi b every single time." Matt Martin has said so from your quote, and even Nic Gillard said so before him.

We are in agreement so many factors go into a fight and rarely does the more powerful/skill combatant ever actually win the fight. This has always been the case but Star Wars fans holding to this my giy always wins because of is silly. Each situation is different, each duelist has different strengths and weaknesses so Kenobi will do better against Vader than Dooku despite Dooku having Kenobi number. It is the fans who choose which statements to take literally and be prisoners of the last moment we see ergo Maul vs. Tano. Maul still disarmed her but failedvto close the deal which proves his skill is still on par but her resiliency coupled with the situation ended up going in her favor but is not indicative of another matchup.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf...

Vader is canonically listed above Sheev in sabers. I know a lot of people hate that, but it is what it is.

And even more people like it... Vader done as he should always have been.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Agreed actually. I have Sidious below Yoda in sabers, but I think Vader might still win. It’s pretty telling that Yoda and Kenobi never attempted to kill Vader again, and there are quotes that say Vader was second in power only to Sidious.

And also Sidious said canon that Vader powers as being unparalled. In any case, Vader brutalizes Yoda.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The script I believe but logically howvekse woyld sidious lose his light saber.

Everything is for the story but your bias cannot dismiss it when it suits you. Anakin was arrogant in his power and ability. So you are saying despite Vader knowing anger makes you powerful he deliberately spurred an opponent who did not want to even fight him. So he is dumb still. All of it is canon but the excuses for losses needs to stop.

Which isn't canon. GoA clearly shows Sidious still has his saber.

And you're just ignoring the circumstances to suit your needs. This is a battle with no crazy circumstances like Luke getting a massive amp. This isn't about the character's intelligence and Vader isn't going to try and get Yoda to use the dark side anyway, completely different.

Originally posted by Scizard
Which isn't canon. GoA clearly shows Sidious still has his saber.

And you're just ignoring the circumstances to suit your needs. This is a battle with no crazy circumstances like Luke getting a massive amp. This isn't about the character's intelligence and Vader isn't going to try and get Yoda to use the dark side anyway, completely different. So the script of the movie...haha

So you believe sidious just tossed it aside off screen? What makes sense to you?

Luke getting angry is better than Vader. That is what happened. You can scream all you want but Luke won and Palpatine sought him as he was younger and more powerful. Vader was well past a prime he never realized due to Kenobi.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So the script of the movie...haha

So you believe sidious just tossed it aside off screen? What makes sense to you?

Luke getting angry is better than Vader. That is what happened. You can scream all you want but Luke won and Palpatine sought him as he was younger and more powerful. Vader was well past a prime he never realized due to Kenobi.

If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious.

Originally posted by Scizard
If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious.

He clearly lost potential. Full potential Anakin rivals the Ones who are per canon>>>>>>>the Jedi and the Sith. No way is ROTJ Luke rivaling that.

.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader.




Maul appears to use the same ability on Ahsoka and it clearly doesn't lower skill levels to Padawan levels. +The databank still says he kills them before they can react.



No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of the Force. And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious. +Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda.



It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations.

Case in point the same list has Ventress above Savage when literally in the Clone Wars Ventress is clearly shown to be outmatched by him.
You said it yourself, Sidious doesn’t even use a lightsaber after episode 3 so why on earth would he even be on the list in the first place You might not like it but Vader is now the top dog in terms of dueling, in the new canon.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
You said it yourself, Sidious doesn’t even use a lightsaber after episode 3 so why on earth would he even be on the list in the first place You might not like it but Vader is now the top dog in terms of dueling, in the new canon.

Why is Ventress above Savage after she was bodied by him? I have no idea what went into the list. All I know is that it isn't the end all be all in versus matches.



Whether it's physical or mental is irrelevant. Even when he died well into his middle age he still had not reached his full potential. That suggests there were serious limitations he simply could not overcome. Unless you want to start arguing Darth Vader>Son & Daughter.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why is Ventress above Savage after she was bodied by him? I have no idea what went into the list. All I know is that it isn't the end all be all in versus matches.

It could have been a bad match-up for her. You are correct that it isn't the "end all be all in versus matches". It merely means she is a better duelist not that she would necessarily win a duel. Regardless, she was only using a single lightsaber so it's a poor example.

Originally posted by ares834
It could have been a bad match-up for her. You are correct that it isn't the "end all be all in versus matches". It merely means she is a better duelist not that she would necessarily win a duel. Regardless, she was only using a single lightsaber so it's a poor example.

After Obi-Wan gets his lightsaber back and she is back at two sabers she agrees they are both overmatched. So, no its actually a great example.



No, it really doesn't. If the most skilled boxer in the world is a woman she's going to get demolished 10/10 by a heavyweight man boxer. Skill is just one of many factors that play into a duel in Star Wars.

I have no real interest in continuing the Vader debate further. It's clear he didn't reach his full potential by the age of 45 when he died everything else is a technicality that I don't care about.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why on earth would it not take into account the most popular/common incarnation of that individual? In the OT and the Sequel Trilogy, Palpatine doesn't even wield a lightsaber so it'd be strange to put him at the top. Assuming its ROTS Sidious is like assuming when referencing Vader its ROTS Vader or Comic Book Vader. We've seen Palpatine actively dueling with a lightsaber 4 times in canon:
-TCW S05E16
-Son of Dathomir #4
-RotS
-Lords of the Sith

I can't think of a logical reason why the list would be referencing anything but those instances when his placement was considered..? Especially when his saber skill was never touched on again in canon.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, it really doesn't. Lightsaber duel is commonly used to talk about the entire confrontation in canon. It literally is even in reference to his skill in the Dark Side of the Force. Seems like you're digging.

Vader is placed above Palpatine as a "red lightsaber wielder", and Palpatine is placed above Yoda in a "lightsaber duel"... And saber skill is what Palpatine was using against Yoda until the end of their battle(when he began using the Force offensively.)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And the final screenplays have Yoda disarming Sidious.
The unseen moments of the original RotS script(wherein Yoda was said to have disarmed Palpatine) no longer hold up in canon, I'm afraid. Aside from the GoA clip I already posted, in a different clip Palpatine was still shown with his saber in hand just as he is about to begin hurling Senate pods at Yoda:

https://i.imgur.com/pIAogaC.jpg

And by the time he started throwing pods around in the original script, Palpatine had already been disarmed... So yeah, retconned.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
+Since Sidious uses "dark side haze" against Mace it'd make sense he'd use something similar against Yoda. Unless that was stated in an official source, I'm not just going to assume it happened.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It's not about liking. It's about debating what's portrayed in the canon. Lightsaber "skill" has never always been a 1 to 1 on who wins actual lightsaber combat so lists like that are not the word of god when it comes to who will win in these threads, shit its not even word of god on canon confrontations. Again, I'm just talking about pure lightsaber skill -- and in that regard, Vader > Palpatine > Yoda in canon.

Does that mean Vader would beat them in 'all-out' combat? Not necessarily(especially in Palpatine's case.) It just means he was a better swordsman.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He clearly lost potential. He didn't. In canon, grievous injuries(like those suffered by Maul and Vader) do not decrease potential.

Vader never becoming a peer of The Father doesn't mean he lost potential. It just means he never fully realized said potential. That certainly isn't a low showing, though(not even RoS Palpatine, with the power of every Sith in history, reached that level.)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
After Obi-Wan gets his lightsaber back and she is back at two sabers she agrees they are both overmatched. So, no its actually a great example.

Wrong. She still has a single saber at the time. In fact, she never recovers her second saber at all.

@Galan007: I know that in canon force user don't became weaker after losing limbs per Chee, but do we have anything to confirm that they don't lose potential? Or is more of a case that we just don't have anything to confirm that they lose potential.

Also, acording to Filoni in the original version of the episide Maul was going to give Vader a decent fight, perhaps similar to what Ahsoka did. And there is also that starwars.com quote that implies that Maul>Ahsoka. I think that Rebels might be Maul's prime, at least as of season 2 and he declined only in season 3.

Originally posted by Scizard
If we're talking in universe? Probably just hid it under his robes. If we're talking out of universe then it's probably just due to the fact that he was originally intended to be disarmed, which is no longer the case, so a retcon.

And? Amped Luke beating Vader shows Luke's power, not Vader's weakness, since we already know he lost no potential and only got stronger, his ability rivalling Sidious. When was there ever a retcon? It makes no sense to put away a lightsaber for no reason.


Getting angry is not amped it is just channeling your anger by your emotions. An amp something outside of your own power is the dyad since it healed and amplified Palpatines own abilities.


Luke the same guy who is scared of Rey and Rens power so he is a good judge of what power is since he has felt Vader and Palpatines.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Also, acording to Filoni in the original version of the episide Maul was going to give Vader a decent fight, perhaps similar to what Ahsoka did. And there is also that starwars.com quote that implies that Maul>Ahsoka. I think that Rebels might be Maul's prime, at least as of season 2 and he declined only in season 3. Why would anyone believe his version in revere is his prime? Silliness.

Originally posted by Darthadi
@Galan007: I know that in canon force user don't became weaker after losing limbs per Chee, but do we have anything to confirm that they don't lose potential? Or is more of a case that we just don't have anything to confirm that they lose potential. Nothing in canon so much as alludes to Vader(or Maul, for that matter) losing potential as a result of their injuries... And sources like this:
https://i.imgur.com/E1uoPZB.jpg
Certainly imply that Vader's potential was not gimped.

Aside from that, Lords of the Sith literally goes out of its way to tell us that post-RotS Vader was more powerful than ever... And by the time of Rebels, he was arguably even more powerful, given Hidalgo's "prime" quote.

Chee's comment just cements the info we already have, imo.

If it has been posted I missed it but kindly post Chees and Hidalgos comments.

No. biscuits

Originally posted by Galan007
No. biscuits

https://media.giphy.com/media/5UqL7oSxKwdwNhxo2C/giphy.gif

Then there has to be psychological reasons for Vader's growth slowing down. As Anakin he was going to surpass Sheev very soon, even factoring Sheev's growth after ROTS. Anakin's potential completly dwarfed Palpatine's own so Sheev hoarding knowledge should not be a big factor especially if you consider that as Anakin he didn't had that much knowledge either. There is also Palpatine wanting to replace Vader with Luke(whose potential is lesser than Anakin's). Or maybe Vader surpassed Palpatine if you take the Fallen Order quote seriously

Originally posted by Galan007
We've seen Palpatine actively dueling with a lightsaber 4 times in canon:
-TCW S05E16
-Son of Dathomir #4
-RotS
-Lords of the Sith

I can't think of a logical reason why the list would be referencing anything but those instances when his placement was considered..? Especially when his saber skill was never touched on again in canon.

Just because skills are rusty doesn't mean they don't exist.



Not really. All of the lightsaber combat and skill doesn't revolve around saber-saber combat. Not to mention A>B>C Logic doesn't work in Star Wars, which is what you don't seem to understand. This isn't Dragon Ball Z where Vader has a power level of 1,000,000 and Sidious and Yoda have 900,000.



The movies and the animated series are still "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters, and events to which all other tales must align." GoA videos aren't canon, at best they are like Lego Star Wars and are "canon adjacent". They also depict Yoda running up walls in duels against Dooku in AOTCs which clearly contradicts the movies.



Not interested in continuing that debate. Yoda demolishes unless you completely remove his ability to use the force. That's my stance.



Something prevented him from reaching that considering he was 45 when he died. Don't care what that is as long as you agree Vader isn't at the level of the Ones, and that that was his full potential.

Some of you are forgetting that the original intention was to have Vader to be much weaker. The intention has changed. Yes there are going to be minor plot holes or inconsistencies, (just look at the Siege of Mandalore TV Show vs the book). Figure it out.

Vader is supposed to be more powerful than ever right now, with sources citing him as even above Palpatine whos power would've also been growing over the two decades. We also have no idea how close Anakin was to Palpatine, so he could've indeed grown substancially even if Palpatine was to stay stagnent, which he most likely did not.

Also of course Palpatine would want Luke, why would he want a body that is burnt to the crisp, in constant pain and in a heavy suit.

I don't nessecarily think exact potential is being closely looked into either considering Luke/Ahsoka/Rey/Kylo's power. Luke's progression with what we now know in canon is way faster than Anakin's. Ahsoka is beating Maul at 17..

Although I have seen theories that Vader slowed down due to his vision, he see's himself with ultimate power and still doesn't get Padme back. Perhaps he has less desire to get stronger until he finds out Luke is alive? Either way all nothing really saying Vader lost any potential.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Just because skills are rusty doesn't mean they don't exist. So a "best of the best" list is ranking characters who are out of their prime, iyo?

That's... Logical?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really. All of the lightsaber combat and skill doesn't revolve around saber-saber combat. Not to mention A>B>C Logic doesn't work in Star Wars, which is what you don't seem to understand. This isn't Dragon Ball Z where Vader has a power level of 1,000,000 and Sidious and Yoda have 900,000. I think you just aren't comprehending my point.

I am simply using canonical material to draw a conclusion where saber skill is concerned.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The movies and the animated series are still "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters, and events to which all other tales must align." GoA videos aren't canon, at best they are like Lego Star Wars and are "canon adjacent". They also depict Yoda running up walls in duels against Dooku in AOTCs which clearly contradicts the movies. That scene/screencap doesn't contradict the RotS film at all, though(the film certainly never showed Yoda disarming Palpatine.)

It simply provides us with a canonical segment from their battle during one of the cut-scenes in the film, and effectively retcons the original script for reasons I mentioned before. In canon, Yoda did not disarm Palpatine, and Palpatine is explicitly stated to be able to defeat Yoda in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not interested in continuing that debate. Yoda demolishes unless you completely remove his ability to use the force. That's my stance. That's fine.

But I have yet to see anyone make a cohesive argument as to *why* canon Yoda would beat peak Vader... Let alone "demolish" him. /shrug

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Something prevented him from reaching that considering he was 45 when he died. Don't care what that is as long as you agree Vader isn't at the level of the Ones, and that that was his full potential. Really don't see why Vader never ascending to Father-level matters here... At all?

Even though his potential was never fully realized, the fact is that canon Vader still became more powerful after the events of RotS. His potential was never diminished, and his injuries/armor never gimped his power.

Though I imagine that if you put Vader back on Mortis(a universal Force nexus), he'd become god-level. But that's neither here nor there...

Stark is in denial. I was going to respond but Galan007 you pretty much said everything I was thinking already

Yoda rapes. Faster, more agile, better duelist, better Force user, stronger Force user. Palpatine's equal, who is still Vader clear superior.

Nah

Originally posted by McP
Yoda rapes. Faster, more agile, better duelist, better Force user, stronger Force user. Palpatine's equal, who is still Vader clear superior.

Lol have you read anything on this thread?

Literally what I was thinking

Have anyone proved there that Vader > Palpatine? I guess not. But I can see one scenario, when he was indeed stronger. As he lost to his superior on Mustafar, he was rosted too much, and wasny able to challnage anyone who is not 10 tiers below him, as he had no balls anymore. Once he challanged Ben, he was unable to overpower him and needed a free frag from his former master. After a few years, was inferior to his barely-trained son. I don't care about Shitsney shitty hype, Vader's showings are inferior to either Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious, Rey, Snoke, Zombietine etc. He would stomp clows of ren though. All ot once, including Kylo.

Yikes

Yodas with medium difficulty.

I don't care what some new "canon" sources say if they straight up contradict what we see in the movies or other media. If Vader was a better duelist than Yoda and Sidious he would have stomped the likes of Obi-Wan and Ahsoka with ease.

Canon Vader can probably beat 2 canon Yodas tbh.

Originally posted by McP
Yoda rapes. Faster, more agile, better duelist, better Force user, stronger Force user. Palpatine's equal, who is still Vader clear superior. I agree. I found a canon source stating they were equals.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Lol have you read anything on this thread?

pretty sure that one source has them as equals as of rots. There's nothign that ties yoda to rotj sids

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
pretty sure that one source has them as equals as of rots. There's nothign that ties yoda to rotj sids Yep.

Vader beats the absolute shit out of him.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf...
A guy who can legitimately move mountains wouldn't be bothered by Senate pods.
I mean, doesn't yoda's near parity with sids give him scaling over more impressive stuff? Like dooku's orbalisk showings, maul's hyperdrive showing, ect.

Same can be said about Vader, given the quote that his power was "light years" above Palpatine's other apprentices.

Originally posted by Galan007
Same can be said about Vader, given the quote that his power was "light years" above Palpatine's other apprentices.
Sure, but I don't think it makes much sense to hold Yoda "struggling with the pods" against him here, given the presence of such scaling.

I only mentioned the pod thing to demonstrate how much of an outlier Yoda's mountain feat was... Even if taken at face value. Was not meant to downplay Yoda by any means.

Originally posted by Galan007
I only mentioned the pod thing to demonstrate how much of an outlier Yoda's mountain feat was... Even if taken at face value. Was not meant to downplay Yoda by any means.
I remember that feat was discussed at length. Were the extenuating circumstances at play?

It's certainly debatable, given the esoteric nature of the stones/creatures.

Moreover, the implication is that it was also a sort of 'oneness' moment for Yoda:
https://i.imgur.com/0NuoR9G.jpg

But even IF taken at face value, it is still a massive outlier that is certainly not indicative of Yoda's 'average', imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Same can be said about Vader, given the quote that his power was "light years" above Palpatine's other apprentices.
Which quote is that?

https://i.imgur.com/CAvsKag.jpg
-I Am Sith