Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

ROTJ Luke vs. The same Jedi squad who came to arrest Sidious in ROTS-

https://i.postimg.cc/kX4VpMqP/1.jpg

canon only.

The squad. Isn't there a line that states Palpatine used some sort of dark confusion haze to kill the other Jedi Masters anyway?

Originally posted by Scizard
The squad. Isn't there a line that states Palpatine used some sort of dark confusion haze to kill the other Jedi Masters anyway?
No, but he caught Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn off guard

Palpatine used indeed a dark side confusion haze. This is why he blitzed them so easly.
Luke probably dies here even if he scale to Vader. Windu alone can press him. The problem with Luke is that he has no experience fighting multiple enemies so he migh die just because of this even if he is more powerful.

There is also a quote on Starwars.com about Vader being conflicted in ROTJ. And we know conflict can hinder a force user like it happened with Kylo in TFA. Not saying that Vader was necessarly hindered, just a possibility.

Don't even think Vader could take on these 4 alone.

Tinn and Kolar have done jack shit in canon, and Fisto's best feat is stalemating Grievous. Luke would slaughter them easily.

The real fight is obviously Mace. But if Luke is equal to Vader he should beat Mace solidly.

Even putting Vader > Mace is an assumption. Let alone Luke > Mace & Kit Fisto. Vader is still above Luke, more strength, more experience etc.

Then again you have Grievous level opponent and a Sidious level opponent so fun stuff and as said earlier Sidious was using confusion haze so..

What are Tinn and Kolar's best feats in canon? Nothing comes to mind for me. Fisto could have probably beaten Grievous, but that is literally his best canon feat. Confusion haze or not, those three are getting merc'd easily by Luke.

Mace would obviously do the best, but Luke's power and skill was stated to be equal to Vader's, so he'd get stomped also.

luke dies

I really am curious why people see the team winning? Does it mostly just come down to the number advantage?

No. It's an *assumption* that Vader > Mace. It's possible but you can't even say for sure, you can't possibly say that Vader is far above Mace and then you're adding a Grievous level opponent on top of this against a weaker version of Vader being Luke.

Vader wank is just getting over the top now.

A very logical assumption, because in canon- ROTJ Luke=Vader>ROTS Anakin>>Dooku.

So unless you think that Mace is vastly above Dooku's level, like Vader (and Luke) are, then I'm not really sure what your counterpoint is?

Also how is it "over the top wank" when everything I said can be confirmed in canon sources??

Where is Anakin >> Dooku coming from, he gets kicked around in their last fight and are even from Dark Disciple.

And even if we subscribe to that yes I would say comparing Mace to Dooku is stupid. Dooku is not disarming Sidious.

Originally posted by Scizard
Where is Anakin >> Dooku coming from, he gets kicked around in their last fight and are even from Dark Disciple.

And even if we subscribe to that yes I would say comparing Mace to Dooku is stupid. Dooku is not disarming Sidious. Did you miss the part in ROTS where Anakin raped Dooku easily?

Sidious going allout against Mace is debatable to say the least. Especially when most sources (be them canon or Legends) have Dooku and Mace as peers.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Did you miss the part in ROTS where Anakin raped Dooku easily?

Sidious going allout against Mace is debatable to say the least. Especially when most sources (be them canon or Legends) have Dooku and Mace as peers.

What do you mean Anakin raped Dooku easily lol. The first starts off with Anakin and Obi wan being redirected. Then Dooku kicks Anakin and sends Obi flying. Then he struggles against Dooku in a bladelock. It's only once Anakin is enraged that he gets his hands chopped off.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that someone needs to be >> to beat someone.

And I've never seen a canon source label Dooku and Mace as peers so you'll have to show me.

Originally posted by Scizard
What do you mean Anakin raped Dooku easily lol. The first starts off with Anakin and Obi wan being redirected. Then Dooku kicks Anakin and sends Obi flying. Then he struggles against Dooku in a bladelock. It's only once Anakin is enraged that he gets his hands chopped off.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that someone needs to be >> to beat someone.

And I've never seen a canon source label Dooku and Mace as peers so you'll have to show me. Yes, by accessing his rage for a moment Anakin stomped Dooku in like 20 seconds. That, my friend, is absolute rape.

So you believe what? That Mace is > Yoda? Talk about "over the top wank"

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Yes, by accessing his rage for a moment Anakin stomped Dooku in like 20 seconds. That, my friend, is absolute rape.

So you believe what? That Mace is > Yoda? Talk about "over the top wank"

What do you mean 20 seconds. You're forgetting that the fight actually lasts a minute and a half.

And yes I don't see a reason to believe that Yoda's lightsaber skills are superior to Mace's at this time or at the very least not extremely close.

No proof that Sidious intended to be disarmed when he could've just thrown away his saber or deactivated and put it under his robes. So yes you're basically saying that Vader stomps ROTS Sidious.

And lets see here:

Even if you can argue that Vader is superior to Mace you then still have to argue that Vader is superior to Mace and a Grievous level opponent and then you have to argue that Vader is fast enough to deflect four saber blows at once in a tight space, and then you have to argue that a weaker version of Vader, (a guy who has no experience fighting 4 skilled opponents at once, could be slower, obviously is less physically strong and has way less durability). Have fun with that.

I'm talking about after Anakin accessed his rage. Once that happened the fight was over in 20 seconds. Without accessing his rage, Anakin was already Dooku's equal as of DD.

But Vader (and therefore Luke) is "light-years" above Dooku.


You could argue that Sidious was just stalling for time so that Anakin could arrive. That was Anakins final Sith test afterall. There is certainly a fair bit of evidence to suggest that Sidious was holding back all around. The same obviously cannot be said in his fight with Yoda.

A Grievous level opponent is less than nothing compared to a Vader level opponent. Fisto would die easily. Tinn and Kolar have literally done nothing (I dont know if they've even been given any wank via accolades in canon) so they'd die even quicker. Fodder is still fodder.

Mace is the toughest opponent obviously, but if Luke is Vader level he's beating Mace decisively.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I'm talking about after Anakin accessed his rage. Once that happened the fight was over in 20 seconds. Without accessing his rage, Anakin was already Dooku's equal as of DD.

But Vader (and therefore Luke) is "light-years" above Dooku.


You could argue that Sidious was just stalling for time so that Anakin could arrive. That was Anakins final Sith test afterall. There is certainly a fair bit of evidence to suggest that Sidious was holding back all around. The same obviously cannot be said in his fight with Yoda.

A Grievous level opponent is less than nothing compared to a Vader level opponent. Fisto would die easily. Tinn and Kolar have literally done nothing (I dont know if they've even been given any wank via accolades in canon) so they'd die even quicker. Fodder is still fodder.

Mace is the toughest opponent obviously, but if Luke is Vader level he's beating Mace decisively.

Sure I agree with your first two parts. But it makes no difference.

Either way you cannot say that Sidious was not legitimately disarmed. And you cannot even prove Vader > Mace. Let alone Vader >> Mace.

Mace Windu is **atleast** enough to keep Luke's full focus.

You're acting like Vader can just one shot someone Grievous level, which is what he'd need to do to survive in such a tiny area, and I see no proof of that. Commander Karbin was enough to make Vader send a ship flying into him, if he was able to quickly dispatch Karbin then he would've done so.

Vader very rarely quickly dispatches opponents, unless they're complete fodder and even then that's typically one on one and this is Luke we're talking about, not Vader.

And you're failing to realise that Luke will have to deflect 4 sabers at once. He's not fast enough to blitz any of them, and 4 sabers is 4 sabers from presumbly 'skilled' opponents. Agen Kolar apparently is a master swordsmen according to the Star Wars Character Encyclopedia. But anyway Luke isn't going to be able to handle four sabers at once when one of them is enough to put pressure on him.

It's just impossible to make that argument without wild assumptions. You're assuming that Luke is >> Mace. You're assuming that a Grievous-level opponent can be dispatched quickly, it's fair enough to believe whatever you want but I see nothing but heavy theory and speculation with no actual evidence for your claims. Right now atleast.

I'm just saying that it is debatable whether or not Mace legitimately beat Sidious there, considering the surrounding context with Anakin.

Either way canon has established Vader as a better lightsaber duelist then Sidious, and "light-years" beyond Maul and Dooku..... And Luke was stated to be his equal. So no, I really don't see a Grievous level fighter and two other featless nothings being able to press him at all. Fodder is still fodder.

And even if Mace is legitimately > Sidious in sabers, so is Vader (and therefore Luke). Difference is that Luke's power also scales to Vaders level, while Mace's obviously does not.

All material factored in, this is Luke's fight to lose IMO.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I'm just saying that it is debatable whether or not Mace legitimately beat Sidious there, considering the surrounding context with Anakin.

Either way canon has established Vader as a better lightsaber duelist then Sidious, and "light-years" beyond Maul and Dooku..... And Luke was stated to be his equal. So no, I really don't see a Grievous level fighter and two other featless nothings being able to press him at all. Fodder is still fodder.

And even if Mace is legitimately > Sidious in sabers, so is Vader (and therefore Luke). Difference is that Luke's power also scales to Vaders level, while Mace's obviously does not.

All material factored in, this is Luke's fight to lose IMO.

It doesn't matter that the rest can't press him, because Mace can. Like I've said multiple times now you haven't even proved Vader >> Mace yet.

And still doesn't matter because Luke isn't fast enough to avoid 3 other lightsabers with Mace presuring him.

Vader took a long time to defeat Ahsoka, there's no reason for Mace to be any different.

Originally posted by Scizard
It doesn't matter that the rest can't press him, because Mace can. Like I've said multiple times now you haven't even proved Vader >> Mace yet.

And still doesn't matter because Luke isn't fast enough to avoid 3 other lightsabers with Mace presuring him.

Canon is very clear about Dooku and Windu being peers and canon is very clear about Vader being light-years above Dooku and Vader also being the best lightsaber fighter amongst Jedis and Siths.... so not only Vader>Dooku, but Vader>>Dooku=Mace.

How have I not proven it?

in canon Vader > sidious in sabers. So even IF Mace is also above Sidious in sabers (which is still debatable due to the context of the scene), that would only put Mace's saber skill in Vader's tier. But in terms of overall Force power Vader is "light-years" above Dooku. And you probably don't want to try and pretend like Mace can even approach Vader in that department. That is a feat war you simply cannot win.

So yes, Vader would absolutely stomp Mace in an allout forum battle.

Originally posted by Scizard
Vader took a long time to defeat Ahsoka, there's no reason for Mace to be any different. Ehh Ahsoka isn't the best measuring stick.

Girl was already equal to Maul as a teenager. Then she had another 15 years of training to scale up before fighting Vader.

Not to mention that she is also the embodiment of the Filoni-force. Unbeatable and unkillable.

I love the Vader wank, but i think people go too far with it now. Vader being above Mace is resonable, but stomping him is unsubstantiated. Vader being above Dooku by light years doesn't put him ahead of ROTS Windu by light years since there is no evidence Windu=Dooku in power as of ROTS.
The light years quote might also be hyperbole, just like Yoda=2xDooku one which was confirmed by Matt Martin to be hyperbole. People take quotes from children books (cereal box quotes as one user named them) too seriously and too literal.

Originally posted by Darthadi
I love the Vader wank, but i think people go too far with it now. Vader being above Mace is resonable, but stomping him is unsubstantiated. Vader being above Dooku by light years doesn't put him ahead of ROTS Windu by light years since there is no evidence Windu=Dooku in power as of ROTS.
The light years quote might also be hyperbole, just like Yoda=2xDooku one which was confirmed by Matt Martin to be hyperbole. People take quotes from children books (cereal box quotes as one user named them) too seriously and too literal.

Anakin stomping Dooku was enormous gap between Dooku and Anakin, let alone Vader vs. Dooku... that was real destruction... worst destruction there was in movies.

It may be wrong, but aren't in canon the best lightsaber duelist?:

Vader
Sheev
Yoda
Maul
Dooku/Windu

Originally posted by Darthadi
The light years quote might also be hyperbole, just like Yoda=2xDooku one which was confirmed by Matt Martin to be hyperbole. People take quotes from children books (cereal box quotes as one user named them) too seriously and too literal. "Light years" isn't quantifiable anyway. It is simply meant to convey the fact that Vader is far beyond the likes of Dooku and Maul... Which we can already infer based on multiple other sources.

Regardless, random writer comments(especially on social media) are non-canon in and of themselves -- published material always takes precedence. Matt Martin himself has stated this more than once:
https://i.imgur.com/2N8lfor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jeFfjrT.jpg
"The facts are in the publishing itself."

People can try to ignore the information as "kiddy material" all they want, but turning a blind eye doesn't make it less canon. It just affirms bias and ignorance, tbh.

It's such a dumb argument anyway.

The entire Star Wars franchise is geared towards kids FFS.

Originally posted by Sheev

Girl was already equal to Maul as a teenager.


Urm... They were not equals.

Not even going by her Dad (Filoni) himself. In fact It took a whole ton of Filoni Force for it to even be an extended competition.

If Maul is fighting in character, they are equals. Peers at the very least. Overconfidence and general dipshittery are traits he seems to always bring into battle.

And don't underestimate the Filoni-force. The dude basically created TWBW JUST to save Ahsoka, lol.

^ Well not equal in Sabers or in the Force.

Dipshittery and Filoni Force I cant factor in with any kind of reasoned logic.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Light years" isn't quantifiable anyway. It is simply meant to convey the fact that Vader is far beyond the likes of Dooku and Maul... Which we can already infer based on multiple other sources.

Regardless, random writer comments(especially on social media) are non-canon in and of themselves -- published material always takes precedence. Matt Martin himself has stated this more than once:
https://i.imgur.com/2N8lfor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jeFfjrT.jpg
"The facts are in the publishing itself."

People can try to ignore the information as "kiddy material" all they want, but turning a blind eye doesn't make it less canon. It just affirms bias and ignorance, tbh.
I know that Matt Martins's tweets are not canon. But he is not just a random writer, he is a member of the story group so i would say that if he tell us to not take children sources that seriously, there must be some merit to it.
http://https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11140/111404832/7383295-9836206109-73451.jpg
And yes, Star Wars is for children too, but there is a difference between obvious kiddy sources like some referance books published by dk (just an example) and actually serious sources like the movies or a novel.
To give you an example: In "Star Wars made easy"(Children referance book) is implied Obi Wan had the advantage over Vader, yet in "From a certain point of view" (an actual serious book written by reputable authors) Vader is portrayed as far beyond Ben. I would take the later anyday as far as credibility goes. It's just way more probable to be actually something the story group care to read and check.
Of course, i don't think these children books should be just ignored (well, with the exception of Star Wars made easy because that book is just stupid and i don't think the author of that book ever watched a SW movie). But i think people put too much stock in them
Oh, and i agree that Vader is well beyond Dooku or Maul. There is too much evidence for this to not acknowledge it. I was speaking in general.

.

This is Matt's tweet.
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11140/111404832/7383295-9836206109-73451.jpg

Originally posted by Darthadi
I know that Matt Martins's tweets are not canon. But he is not just a random writer, he is a member of the story group so i would say that if he tell us to not take children sources that seriously, there must be some merit to it.
http://https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11140/111404832/7383295-9836206109-73451.jpg
And yes, Star Wars is for children too, but there is a difference between obvious kiddy sources like some referance books published by dk (just an example) and actually serious sources like the movies or a novel.
To give you an example: In "Star Wars made easy"(Children referance book) is implied Obi Wan had the advantage over Vader, yet in "From a certain point of view" (an actual serious book written by reputable authors) Vader is portrayed as far beyond Ben. I would take the later anyday as far as credibility goes. It's just way more probable to be actually something the story group care to read and check.
Of course, i don't think these children books should be just ignored (well, with the exception of Star Wars made easy because that book is just stupid and i don't think the author of that book ever watched a SW movie). But i think people put too much stock in them
Oh, and i agree that Vader is well beyond Dooku or Maul. There is too much evidence for this to not acknowledge it. I was speaking in general. Oh I don't disagree that certain sources should be scrutinized more than others. I just can't stand the logic some people go with: ie. "It seems like a kiddy source to me, so it's automatically non-canon." That's just not how it works. We(as fans) don't get to dictate canonicity.

Originally posted by Darthadi
This is Matt's tweet.
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11140/111404832/7383295-9836206109-73451.jpg Good to know that the GoA guide sheets aren't considered part of official storytelling. This is when Twitter comments are actually useful.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Urm... They were not equals.

Not even going by her Dad (Filoni) himself. In fact It took a whole ton of Filoni Force for it to even be an extended competition.
Her dad also said Ahsoka can compete on maul's level. IOW, She's already close to Maul as of TCW.

Martin tends to be so wishy washy about GOA.

One day he'll say not to take everything from it literally, the next day he'll endorse it by telling fans to tune in to "a new twist on canon events", the day after he'll say that each individual creator can do what they want with canon, and a few days later he'll say it's all fake anyway, so fans can choose what's canon and what isn't.

The guy contradicts himself all the time lol.

Personally I think Twitter comments are worthless unless they are being used to corroborate published canon.

LOL at Filoni being Ahsoka's dad.

Originally posted by Sheev
Martin tends to be so wishy washy about GOA.

One day he'll say not to take everything from it literally, the next day he'll endorse it by telling fans to tune in to "a new twist on canon events", the day after he'll say that each individual creator can do what they want with canon, and a few days later he'll say it's all fake anyway, so fans can choose what's canon and what isn't.

The guy contradicts himself all the time lol.

Personally I think Twitter comments are worthless unless they are being used to corroborate published canon.
When he said that is all fake and fans can choose what's canon he meant that fans can create their own personal canon (AKA headcanon). He clarified later that the official canon still exist. No contradiction here.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
How have I not proven it?

in canon Vader > sidious in sabers. So even IF Mace is also above Sidious in sabers (which is still debatable due to the context of the scene), that would only put Mace's saber skill in Vader's tier. But in terms of overall Force power Vader is "light-years" above Dooku. And you probably don't want to try and pretend like Mace can even approach Vader in that department. That is a feat war you simply cannot win.

So yes, Vader would absolutely stomp Mace in an allout forum battle.

You have not proven anything lol. All you have said is Vader > Sidious in saber skills. Well you can make the same claim for Mace.


So no you have not proven that Vader >> Mace.

Originally posted by Darthadi
When he said that is all fake and fans can choose what's canon he meant that fans can create their own personal canon (AKA headcanon). He clarified later that the official canon still exist. No contradiction here. Lol, exactly.

He says something one day, and then "clarifies" something else the next day. The guy is a walking contradiction.

Originally posted by Sheev
Lol, exactly.

He says something one day, and then "clarifies" something else the next day. The guy is a walking contradiction.
That's not a contradiction tho. He needed to clarify that because people missunderstood his original tweet. At most you can say he was not clear enough first time. Still not a contradiction.

I didn't ignore it, just didn't need to argue it. Vader has tons more feats, it's clear he's more powerful in the force. Not a big enough difference to ragdoll or do much about it, but still there.

Still haven't proven Vader >> Mace, let alone Luke. Although considering it now I'm not sure that he's above ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Her dad also said Ahsoka can compete on maul's level. IOW, She's already close to Maul as of TCW.


She was his clear inferior in Sabers and massively inferior to him in the Force. Why you having issues dealing with this? Was a good Saber feat for her even if she was pushing her limits and he wasnt trying his best.