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Both as of ROTJ , but this time no one is conflicted and neither is holding back. Vader doesn't know that Luke is his son and Luke doesn't know that Vader is his father. Does anything change?
Canon version for both.

Yes, Vader wins this time.

I still think they'd be roughly equal, with Luke gaining the advantage when he inevitable raged-out.

I think the main point of debate here is how much was Vader hindered by his conflict.

Personally, I don't think Vader's conflict was hindering him significantly.

He may not have been trying to kill Luke, but Luke wasn't trying to kill him either.

I'm not refering to Vader don't trying to kill Luke. I'm refering to his inner conflict that would weaken him. When force users feel conflicted emotions they tend to be weaker. (Kylo in TFA is the perfect example).It's simply logical that conflicted emotions would hinder Vader, given he draws his power from these emotions. If Luke was able to sense the light within Vader, it means that, even though Vader had a surface of darkness, there were some cracks in that surface. He wasn't as immersed in the dark side. He wouldn't be able to draw strength from self-hatred as easily as he would against someone he didn't feel compassion for, because they are opposing emotions. A part of Vader wanted to destroy Luke and the other wanted to save him. Conflicted hatred would be weaker than pure unadultered hatred.
This is similar to Kylo's situation in TFA where he killed Han, almost killed Finn and tryed to turn Rey to the dark side, but we still know he was hindered by his conflict.

Of course, this is mostly unquantifiable.

If Luke rages then he wins but w/o that I give it to Vader, slightly.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Of course, this is mostly unquantifiable. As mentioned, I'm not opposed to the notion that Vader's conflict may have inhibited his abilities to *some* extent... But I really don't think he was intended to have been operating much below his full power(if at all.)

Vader's initial conflict was essentially: "Should I bring my son before Palpatine and try to turn him toward the dark side, or should I not..?" However, he ultimately did bring Luke to Palpatine, and did try and goad him towards to dark side. So while said conflict may have initially been present on some level, it was still buried very deep beneath the Vader/dark side persona, and didn't really begin to surface until Luke was dying right before his eyes... I mean, even Palpatine only registered it as a "flickering light" within Vader. /shrug

It's not at all comparable to Kylo after he killed Han. In that case it was outright stated that Kylo was an emotional and spiritual trainwreck afterward.

Didn't the Rebels bts stuff say at some point that Vader at his peak was Rebels until he discovered Luke was alive because it opened up a light in him or am I misremembering?

No, you're right.

Rebels recon reiterated the obvious: that the good in Vader only began to surface again once Luke entered the picture.

I mean Vader as of ROTJ I'd consider 'weakened' regardless of intent to kill because of that spark of light. I'd think Rebels/ANH Vader defeats ROTJ Luke in a hard-fought battle though.

Even in ESB, Vader's goal was for Luke to embrace the dark side, help him overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy with him. So I'd say that he was still fully enveloped by the dark side at that point.

It was only in RotJ that you could really argue whether or not Vader's conflict was inhibiting his overall abilities -- but even then, I don't think he was meant to be significantly hindered at all(for reasons I mentioned above.)

Canon indicates that Luke was just legitimately on his level by that point.

Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned, I'm not opposed to the notion that Vader's conflict may have inhibited his abilities to *some* extent... But I really don't think he was intended to have been operating much below his full power(if at all.)

Vader's initial conflict was essentially: "Should I bring my son before Palpatine and try to turn him toward the dark side, or should I not..?" However, he ultimately did bring Luke to Palpatine, and did try and goad him towards to dark side. So while said conflict may have initially been present on some level, it was still buried very deep beneath the Vader/dark side persona, and didn't really begin to surface until Luke was dying right before his eyes... I mean, even Palpatine only registered it as a "flickering light" within Vader. /shrug

It's not at all comparable to Kylo after he killed Han. In that case it was outright stated that Kylo was an emotional and spiritual trainwreck afterward.

Well, Vader's conflict was strong enough that Luke felt it during the figth. ("your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict"
Vader deciding to bring Luke before Palpatine doesn't mean he got rid of his conflict, it only means that his dark side emotions were still stronger than the light side in him (hence why he didn't became a jedi again yet), but the conflict was still there and this would still make him weaker than if he was 100% commited to the dark side.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he became fodder, he was obviously still very powerful.

Originally posted by Darthadi
Well, Vader's conflict was strong enough that Luke felt it during the figth. ("your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict"
Vader deciding to bring Luke before Palpatine doesn't mean he got rid of his conflict, it only means that his dark side emotions were still stronger than the light side in him (hence why he didn't became a jedi again yet), but the conflict was still there and this would still make him weaker than if he was 100% commited to the dark side.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he became fodder, he was obviously still very powerful. Right. The conflict in Vader was obviously present(not denying that.) I'm just saying that I don't think the intent in canon was for it to have gimped Vader's abilities down to the point where Luke could match him. I think Vader was still meant to be operating at(or very near) his full power, but Luke's own power had simply grown to the point where he was capable of matching his father.

My point with Kylo was that while on the surface he still seemed evil we know his conflict greatly weakened him. I'm not saying that Vader was as hindered as Kylo was, but the fact that he defended Sheev and tried to goad Luke to the dark side doesn't mean his conflict was no longer a factor, especially when we have Luke explicitly sensing the conflict during the fight.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right. The conflict in Vader was obviously present(not denying that.) I'm just saying that I don't think the intent in canon was for it to have gimped Vader's abilities down to the point where Luke could match him. I think Vader was still meant to be operating at(or very near) his full power, but Luke's own power had simply grown to the point where he was capable of matching his father.

Well, this debate is mostly speculation and guesswork and we won't get a definitive answer from Disney anytime soon (maybe in the new comics).
Luke growing that fast in power is kind of weird though, especially with his limited training. I guess that as much as we would like to find an IU reason for this, the real reason is that back in 1983 they didn't cared that much if it made sense.

Yeah, all we can really do at this point is speculate.

Hopefully the new comic series' will flesh out Luke's inextricable growth between ESB and RotJ, and should also give a bit more detail on Vader's motivations and whatnot during the same era.

Originally posted by Galan007
I still think they'd be roughly equal, with Luke gaining the advantage when he inevitable raged-out.
And what about if Vader goes rage mode?

Vader wins

Isn't that just... Vader, though?

No... there’s a difference. Just because someone uses the dark side doesn’t mean they’re always full rage mode. We’ve seen it when Vader ragdolls Sidious in the comics and after Luke hits his shoulder in their ESB duel. Or when Sidious kills Savage and Maul goes rage mode and lands a kick on Sidious.

Unless canon has given us a reason to believe otherwise for that specific fight, pretty much everything we know tells us that Vader would not have been at his peak for pretty much that entire film.

Remember Palpatine senses conflict in Vader Before Luke is brought to the Death Star.

The extent to which Vader's conflict hindered his abilities is the question.

As mentioned, I don't think the intent was for him to be significantly gimped at all.

Given how much it gimped him on Mustafa I find it difficult to believe it had no effect on him in Jedi.

The intention I believe was to parallel the events of ROTS and ROTJ, but with the correct side coming out on top in Jedi.

Anakin was gimped by overconfidence when he fought Kenobi in RotS. That wasn't the case in RotJ.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anakin was gimped by overconfidence when he fought Kenobi in RotS. That wasn't the case in RotJ.


That's what got him chopped up for sure. But doubt that played a part in hindering his abilities for the entire fight.

That's what hindered him against Kenobi. I thought that's what you were referring to..?

Was referring to him being conflicted against Kenobi.

Thats why I figured Kenobi was able to match him in a Force push contest. Doubt the force push thing was down to Anakin being overconfident.

Whether it was overconfidence or pure conflict, Anakin's abilities were definitely gimped when he fought Kenobi.

But again: there's no way to know how much Vader's conflict in RotJ was bogging him down(if at all.) I don't think ABC logic necessarily works here, because all emotional conflict is not created equal.

Like I said earlier, Vader's initial conflict was essentially: "Should I bring my son before Palpatine and try to turn him toward the dark side, or should I not..?" However, he ultimately did bring Luke to Palpatine, did defend Palpatine from Luke's strike, and did try and goad him towards to dark side. So while said conflict may have been present on some deep-down level, it was still initially overcome by his Vader/dark side persona.

Aside from that, I can't recall any canon sources off-hand stating that Vader's abilities were being significantly inhibited as a result of that the conflict he was experiencing. That's why I personally don't think the intent was for Vader to be gimped down to Luke's level, but rather, for Luke's own power to have simply grown to the point where he was capable of matching his father. /shrug

I mean its pretty much established at this point that mind sets effect fights in a big way.

And Luke clearly states he senses the conflict in Vader during the fight. So would only be logical to assume that hindered Vaders connection to the dark side.

So I think its a bit of a stretch to just ignore that had any impact.

Also I dont get the argument that he took Luke to the Emperor, and defended him. Given he was conflicted (as per Luke), but not 100% turned back yet. If he didnt take Luke to Palps or let him Luke kill the Emperor (which was likely a ruse anyway given we know Palps can defend himself), then that would mean he would already have chosen Lukes side.

You said that he overcame his conflict and that it may have only been present on some deep down level. Doesn’t seem deep down if Luke sensed it.

I didn't mean that Vader overcame the conflict to the point where it no longer existed. He overcame it by continuing to embrace the dark side predominately(which is why he brought Luke before Palpatine and tried to turn him toward the dark side.) Luke sensed the conflict, sure, but it was still buried very deep within Vader.

That's what I was getting at. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by Galan007
Luke sensed the conflict, sure, but it was still buried very deep within Vader.


I dont think it was buried as deep as you believe.

Because remember Lukes exact words - Your THOUGHTS Betray you Father-

So Vader was actively having those thoughts. Means it was more than on a sub-conscious level.

As for being gimped I cant say to what extent but Luke continues - I feel the GOOD in you... The Conflict-

So this wasnt Vader at the height of his dark side evil like he was in Rebels (per Pablo).

Right, but then Vader goes on to throw a little dun moch back at Luke to try and goad him towards the dark side(which actually worked... if only briefly.) During most of that fight Vader was trying to turn Luke towards the dark side, and Luke was trying to turn Vader to the light side.

But yeah, I never contested if Vader was conflicted(he was to some extent), but I still think it was buried very deep, and didn't really inhibit his abilities significantly. Luke was just able to sense it, and therefore knew that Vader wasn't beyond redemption.

But I do agree that Rebels/ANH was the peak of Vader's 'evilness'.

In The Force Awakens Novelization it was clearly said by Snoke that Vader succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment.

He had a huge conflict in him, so big that he killed Palpatine quickly after their fight. His conflict was growing and it was at peak in the fight against Luke in ROTJ. You don't kill someone just like that in a moment. It was slowly tearing him inside and it was at its peak at the end of ROTJ.

I notice everyone is going on and on about Vader's internal conflict, which hasn't been confirmed to truly hinder him in any meaningful way outside of fan speculation.

Yet almost nobody has brought up the fact that Luke was actively, deliberately holding himself back for much of the fight? If we're going to talk about context, it's worth discussing both sides of it. Luke throughout the whole movie constantly reiterated that he couldn't bring himself to kill his own father. During the battle itself, he twice attempts to disengage from Vader and deactivates his lightsaber. He repeatedly "lowers his defenses," as Vader put it. If either character is actively hindered by their internal conflict over this struggle, it's clearly Luke. Just because he was ultimately the victor due to giving into his anger doesn't mean that Luke wasn't also very, very conflicted about the battle.

With that said, why do people act like Vader's internal conflict has a larger bearing on who is truly stronger than Luke's internal conflict? Luke still fought as Vader's equal for a good chunk of the fight after deliberately restraining himself and turning off his anger, to the point that Vader literally exhausted himself against Luke's defenses. And Luke, while conflicted and holding himself back, overpowered Vader in a lightsaber bind as well, just before leaping toward the catwalks above.

Why shouldn't the same standards you're applying to Vader apply to Luke for the majority of this duel as well (prior to Luke's major rage amp at the end)?

Everytime Luke gets an edge over Vader he is using the dark side. I doubt Luke was holding back and using the dark side at the same time. It's just his rage dying down after he deals a blow to Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mustafa

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