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Hand to hand combat between Joker and Punisher (thanks Sin and Albert).

Whos taking this? No armored clothing.

Frank wins.

Joker gets punished

Joker puts a smile on that face.

Yeah, Castle smiles as he snaps Joker's neck.

I don't know. Joker has some insane damage soak. Jason hitting him with a bat, and he was just laughing it off, iirc.

IIRC at one point it was revealed/retconned that Joker always held back and was actually a worthy Batman opponent. I personally think it's retarded and I hate such retcons in general, maybe someone has a scan of the instance im talking about.

^ You're talking about Dionesium Joker.

Nothing was clear about that.

The upcoming Three Jokers story will make it even more convoluted.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
IIRC at one point it was revealed/retconned that Joker always held back and was actually a worthy Batman opponent. I personally think it's retarded and I hate such retcons in general, maybe someone has a scan of the instance im talking about.

https://i.imgur.com/FkdeB1T.jpg

Joker has a higher threshold for pain, is harder to predict and probably faster. I'd give it to him.

He's got a glass jaw.

Frank eats Class 10 punches and gets his ribs blown off...

Cause Frank has no damage soak

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He's got a glass jaw.

Frank eats Class 10 punches and gets his ribs blown off...

Didnt realize Matt was a class 10

Matt isn't.

Spider-Man is.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yeah, Castle smiles as he snaps Joker's neck. Then he realizes it was his arms that actually snapped.

No.

Joker can't hope to beat Frank in the melee combat.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Matt isn't.

Spider-Man is.

Without his costume?

If he can tank Batman blows, he can tank Frank's.

https://i.imgur.com/TkNbM6V.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hRg0gBK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LZEZcQa.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
^ You're talking about Dionesium Joker.

Nothing was clear about that.

The upcoming Three Jokers story will make it even more convoluted.


Snyder's picking that up against finally?


Figured it was long since dropped.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Without his costume?

He has no costume on his face

Originally posted by Senor Cage
If he can tank Batman blows, he can tank Frank's.



You want to use Joker's outliers, then it's okay to use Frank beating a guy wearing Iron Man armor with nothing but a knife...

Or stalemating U.S. Agent...

Or tossing Al Kraven through the brick wall...

He beat Siege Osborn?

Lol outliers?

Joker fought Aquaman.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol outliers?

Joker fought Aquaman.



Same Aquaman who lost to Bats, to be fair.


Mungi wrote his doctorate on that, elaborating on how it was Arthur not at his best

He is lucky he doesn't live in USA, he would go to prison for trying to defend Aquaman. Same with Pr.

Originally posted by cdtm
He beat Siege Osborn?

He never fought him.

But what does Osborn have to do with this thread?

Osborn wasn't physically tough.

He was just in the position of power (second best after POTUS) and had the whole SHIELD resources at his disposal.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He never fought him.

But what does Osborn have to do with this thread?

Osborn wasn't physically tough.

He was just in the position of power (second best after POTUS) and had the whole SHIELD resources at his disposal.


Just picked him at random because he's a guy who wore Iron Man armor.


I realize there's plenty others, was just spit balling.

Ah, okay.

Tony's (and even Rhodes') armors often get stolen and used against them.

Even Frank did that a few times.

Originally posted by cdtm
Snyder's picking that up against finally?


Figured it was long since dropped.

It's written by Johns and drawn by Fabok. Script is done, Fabok was doing some more passes on the art and the covers last I read.

Book is slated to come out on the 25th of August.

Yeah, Snyder is not involved.

Cdtm never guessed any writer names correctly in his entire kmc career.

As for the release date... thanks to covid, nothing is certain.

If the winner is determined.by who fougt who, Frank.has fought.Professor Hulk and Sentry lol

Joker does have a few great combat showings, but they're more like hidden gems, outliers.

Frank has been a beast since the beginning --- fighting the likes of Nightcrawler, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Moon Knight, U.S. Agent, Captain America, Wolverine...

Recently, even Taskmaster has become his new "sparring partner".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Matt isn't.

Spider-Man is.

Spider-Man holds back. He does not kill.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spider-Man holds back. He does not kill.

He was brainwashed into killing Castle.


Try reading comics, h1. It doesn't hurt, they're actually quite enjoyable.

Frank kills joker then b1tch slaps Batman.

This is light work for castle.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He was brainwashed into killing Castle.


Try reading comics, h1. It doesn't hurt, they're actually quite enjoyable.

Prove it. Show me Spider-Man hitting Frank at full force.
Scans?

It exists, it makes no sense though since Spider-Man has 1 shotted Castle at least twice without going all out.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove it. Show me Spider-Man hitting Frank at full force.
Scans?

Little impotent h1 is gonna cry again?


Check out the Punisher Annual by Remender.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
It exists, it makes no sense though since Spider-Man has 1 shotted Castle at least twice without going all out.

It makes all kind of sense.... since Frank always gets shot, stabbed, cut, electrocuted, burned, tortured, punched and smashed by superhumans (including the Rulk, who wasn't at 100%, but still)... and keeps fighting.

Castle's damage soak is second to none, for a guy without any regen or powers.

https://i.imgur.com/R4W0WxU.jpg

Joker may think little of pain (he even might enjoy it to some degree, depending on the writer), but he can still be incapacitated, crippled or killed without too much effort.


Standard Joker is barely capable of handling Luthor after a long fight... and he had to cheat with the acid flower in order to win, anyway.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It makes all kind of sense.... since Frank always gets shot, stabbed, cut, electrocuted, burned, tortured, punched and smashed by superhumans (including the Rulk, who wasn't at 100%, but still)... and keeps fighting.

Castle's damage soak is second to none, for a guy without any regen or powers.


I'd like to see him go bare fisted against Arkillo.


Image edit:
Learn how to upload before I pimp slap you and put you on a corner to earn me tree fiddy. pimp

https://tinyurl.com/yxwqk5vu

Mines bigger.

durhulk durhulk durhulk durhulk durhulk



Does Arkillo even have any feats w/o the ring?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
durhulk durhulk durhulk durhulk durhulk



Does Arkillo even have any feats w/o the ring?


Gave Mongul a decent fight.

Whole things here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/arkillo-vs-orion-531806/

He still had his power ring there.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He still had his power ring there.


No, they both removed the rings. Mongul had ten of them, the point was to beat the Sinestro's right hand man down in a fair fight, and earn the respect of the Sinestro Corp.

I might be wrong about the rings being off..

But they aren't using them at all. It's a brawl. The point was a brawl.

Arkillo is inconsistent as ****. He's really dodgy when being used in fights.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Arkillo is inconsistent as ****. He's really dodgy when being used in fights.


Inconsistent how?

He's Sinestro's Kilowog, can't remember too many low ends against that role.

The problem is that Frank is made out of flesh and bone and isn't bullet proof. If a character capable of smashing through steel not able to punch through Frank then either
1. PIS
2. Character didnt punch hard enough
Or
3. Protective armor of some sort.

Comics are not real life, h1.


Frank is known for his superhuman damage soak.

The way he punked Azbats is still among the best crossover moments of all time.


Credit to DC for letting a flagship character go down like that.

Originally posted by cdtm
Inconsistent how?

He's Sinestro's Kilowog, can't remember too many low ends against that role.

Physical stats wise.

With a ring, yeah, he's basically Kilowog, but take it off and he's all over the place.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Comics are not real life, h1.


Frank is known for his superhuman damage soak.

When we attempt to quantify stuff then we assume they are real as possible.

Damage soak is not the same as durability.
Spider-Man can punch through human flesh and bone with ease.

As real as possible...?


Bullseye is just human and he uses toothpicks to assassinate his targets.

Fisk is human, too. He wades through Doombot's energy blasts and beats it with his bare hands.

Crossbones emulates superhuman strength & speed and casually snaps werewolves' heads with a single hand.

Frank takes an inhuman amount of punishment (including Class 10 blows) and keeps fighting.






It's what those characters do.


You want to ignore the source material? Go somewhere else.

Bullseye's skills are well within h1a8's capabilities if he has 1-2 years to practice.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Bullseye's skills are well within h1a8's capabilities if he has 1-2 years to practice.



I've seen that post

Even joker has a Bullseye esque feat of killing someone with a peanut

I wanna see it

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Bullseye's skills are well within h1a8's capabilities if he has 1-2 years to practice. lmao

Master Bruce and h1 meeting in a dark alley would end up like American Eagle vs Bullseye.

Originally posted by MrMind
I wanna see it Originally posted by h1a8
Speculation? I gave facts.
Prove that my proof is speculation.




I can do it, provided I can generate sufficient throwing speeds.
Give me less than 1 year of practice. And I don't have great talent at that sort of thing.

So he actually needs less than one year.

Parm, reported for lowballing H1

Originally posted by -Pr-
Physical stats wise.

With a ring, yeah, he's basically Kilowog, but take it off and he's all over the place.


Like Stilt said, has he ever taken the ring off?


I thought his fight with Guy was an example, but you can clearly see the ring still on his finger.

I still say him and Mongul weren't using them, though, even for defense.



So what are some examples of inconsistency? High or low stuff?

Thought he took it off against Guy?

Lol... he did and got beat to sleep...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicnewbies.com/2017/03/08/guy-gardner-vs-arkillo-rebirth/amp/

Originally posted by carver9
Thought he took it off against Guy?


I'm asking for low ends.


Guy is a super duper high end

cdtm obv meant to say Mongul.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
cdtm obv meant to say Mongul.


Mongul vs Guy Gardner would be a good fight.


I bet Guy can take him. Hell, he can probably take Superman in a straight brawl, no ring, speed, or powers.

Guy became ketchup man

Stilt still wanking tf outta Frank i see

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Stilt still wanking tf outta Frank i see

Who has more melee showings?

Frank or Joker?

Whose showings are more impressive?

It's not rocket science, Sin.

Frank would get one-shotted by Batman, though.

1) No, he wouldn't. Read on Frank.

2) Even if so --- great, so he and Joker then will have something in common here.

3) He's a one man army, unstoppable force of nature and you will suck his cock sooner or later.

I swear, kids these days.

Wanking DC can give you cancer.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/7/72718/3815919-punisher_no_escape_028.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/2/27681/559695-punisherusagent2at3.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Who has more melee showings?

Frank or Joker?

Whose showings are more impressive?

It's not rocket science, Sin.

I'd say theyd both have a ton of melee showing.

Frank does have impressive showings but Joker has taken Batman to task enough to warrant a nod.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/7/72718/3815919-punisher_no_escape_028.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/2/27681/559695-punisherusagent2at3.jpg

Walker is not impressive.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I'd say theyd both have a ton of melee showing.

Frank does have impressive showings but Joker has taken Batman to task enough to warrant a nod.

Joker is a (chaotic) schemer. In a right prep scenario, he might have no equal.

His hand-to-hand showings are very limited. Even against Lex Luthor (who sucks), he needed to cheat with acid.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Walker is not impressive.

He was back in the day, actually.

But fine, that is why I mentioned Spider-Man landing a haymaker on Frank's face.

And - in the same state, same issue - he was strong enough to easily lift and wreck cars, so he operated at superhuman levels and was bloodlusted, as his goal was to kill Castle.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Joker is a (chaotic) schemer. In a right prep scenario, he might have no equal.

His hand-to-hand showings are very limited. Even against Lex Luthor (who sucks), he needed to cheat with acid.



He was back in the day, actually.

But fine, that is why I mentioned Spider-Man landing a haymaker on Frank's face.

And - in the same state, same issue - he was strong enough to easily lift and wreck cars, so he operated at superhuman levels and was bloodlusted, as his goal was to kill Castle.

So where would you place Frank's h2h skill level? He's obviously no Batman..so Nightwing? Daredevil, maybe Tim. Trying to get a gauge for where you think he should be since Lex is unimpressive

Punisher breaks him.

Originally posted by Facee
Punisher breaks him.

Naw.

Yup. Frank breaks him.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
So where would you place Frank's h2h skill level? He's obviously no Batman..so Nightwing? Daredevil, maybe Tim. Trying to get a gauge for where you think he should be since Lex is unimpressive

Daredevil > Batman.

He is like a combo of both Bruce and Dick.

Frank is hard to gauge, as his damage soak is supreme among street levelers and plays a big part in his fights.

He's probably Black Widow level, which is more than enough to handle Joker or Lex (or even both of them at the same time) in pure h2h combat.

Bruce beat the crap out of Frank in JLA/Avengers.

Bruce is not in this thread.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Bruce is not in this thread.

Response to Matt>Bruce.


Matt never really beat the crap out of Frank. He gets in a few licks, then gets it back worse.

Except under Ennis ironically. Probably because Frank want'd him overconfident and fully vulnerable to the sonic attack.

Originally posted by cdtm
Matt never really beat the crap out of Frank.

He did.

Certainly better than Bruce, who I don't even recall fighting Frank in JLA/Avengers.

You're making stuff up again or just don't remember which book it was?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He did.

Certainly better than Bruce, who I don't even recall fighting Frank in JLA/Avengers.

You're making stuff up again or just don't remember which book it was?


Happened off panel:


https://bwmedia.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jla-avengers-1-plas-scolds-batman.jpg


20 minutes, without a scratch on him? Matt would show "some" wear. Bloody nose at least, ripped cowl.

lol, twenty minutes and off-panel.

He is probably holding his cape tight, applying the pressure and making sure not to bleed out in front of his teammates.

He's holding his cape like that because Frank's dismembered torso is held underneath it.

That torso transformed into Frankencastle and destroyed the batcave, which Bruce later blamed and punished Superman for.

"You will feel my ring in your ass this time, Clark."

I have a feeling you guys are making things up now.

Not any more than cdtm does on a daily basis

Frank puts a smile on the Joker's face.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yup. Frank breaks him.



Daredevil > Batman.

He is like a combo of both Bruce and Dick.

Frank is hard to gauge, as his damage soak is supreme among street levelers and plays a big part in his fights.

He's probably Black Widow level, which is more than enough to handle Joker or Lex (or even both of them at the same time) in pure h2h combat.


JFC that's a reach. Matt is not on Wayne's level. Guy can't even handle 20 blocks without an intervention.

It's not a reach, it's a fact.

Don't remember you ever getting this wet for Joker, Harley I Am.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
JFC that's a reach. Matt is not on Wayne's level. Guy can't even handle 20 blocks without an intervention.

Even you're not insane enough to think Joker's got a chance here.

Interesting fight. I pick Joker

Joker has no feats suggesting he would be capable of taking Night Trasher or Prowler in a fight, let alone someone like Castle.

I think Deadpool without healing factor would make a tougher matchup than Joker. They're both unpredictable but in addition, Deadpool knows many forms of martial arts, and is an expert marksman and swordsman, which all lies in the fighting department where Punisher's greatest skill set would be.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It's not a reach, it's a fact.

Don't remember you ever getting this wet for Joker, Harley I Am.

i just think you're justifying his lack of traditional MA training with an inability to be dangerous in a h2h scenario. he has shown strength, ingenuity, agility and speed that warrants a nod.

When he was on dionesium, yes.

Without it, he couldn't even take Harley in h2h.

Had to cheat in order to beat Lex, who barely had any training.

Got easily handled by venomless Bane without managing to tag him once.

As much as I prefer Joker, Punisher rips him apart.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
When he was on dionesium, yes.

Without it, he couldn't even take Harley in h2h.

Had to cheat in order to beat Lex, who barely had any training.

Got easily handled by venomless Bane without managing to tag him once.

Yet even without it he's taken multiple crowbars to the head with a smile. You're lowballing has almost reached Alberto levels.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Yet even without it he's taken multiple crowbars to the head with a smile. You're lowballing has almost reached Alberto levels.

He has. He's sometimes written to even enjoy the pain and asking for more. And... what?

He still became Jason's prisoner and b!tch.

He beat Damian, yes - wow - but he's not fighting a kid here.


Joker has more bad combat showings than good ones. You want to cherry-pick, then I can cherry-pick Punisher tanking Rulk's punch and getting up right after it. Or Iron Fist's punches.

And AQUAMAN

Enjoying the pain doesn't somehow negate the toll it takes.

Frank would lose to Jason as well

And?

Not cherry picking just stating facts. I also didn't mention pis like you just did

Joker is so good, Damian thought Oberon was Batman:

https://i.ibb.co/1JLRBm2/rsymj-Bo-Ok-Yh-Kynjfd065e-Cbaf-BRr-EA7-n2k-VFHa-XBIzv-FXZk1-OH4-lz-Ybis-Pf6q-Tuv-DOwvb7-C3-VX8hkr-Nb.jpg https://i.ibb.co/KWGhC6q/vs-F8-Fbmz-Tq-Mhmj-sv3-Ia-Vjbt-dpcv-LRh8-OIt-JVs1j9-Z-ZQUJQ5-L3-Jpg2x-NVD-g-YNw7q-Khl-Rj0-Ioolwz-Q8j.jpg https://i.ibb.co/1b11tDM/Ud-M9t-Gn9-Hw-In-X4yaf-Kr1srp7m-Vy-Zy-EPOcay-Ah-E6-Lrq-O-6tp3r-Rd-SSOy2-Z7-Y6x-LV7-G1iv-OR6r-PQq-Za7.jpg https://i.ibb.co/R3KgCnf/e-Duwlc5t-B3-Kx3-Qwzst-Om1u5-D5hta9-Vg6-BQ3k-Gz-KDu7q-TLx7-Wj-Li-bmfzs2yx0e-Sr-P1f-ZWm-FH-r-FOh-U-BF.jpg https://i.ibb.co/F44Hh2x/AScu-QOIm-VR4na1-Nvmqbskz70-AF1-Hrai-PWi05-Mh-PZQ5g0-Ty2lb-B8tq9e-OQ7-JYIxla2-Q4d5t-QGCs-r-XV1-YMBIZ.jpg https://i.ibb.co/W0zV11G/5vm25f-Kbx-FKn-We-BO3-myl-B-yx-Itzn-902d-QGFRSPxt-SJHRae-OE-T3t-Jy-Qvbc-Oj-Fu29g60ixxv-SA3v-YIV-nfhb.jpg https://i.ibb.co/pLXmhMt/Nr-Gwo5yd6jj0i-L4tj-ODmch0k679-Zxx5-IGji-RLA-e-EDNlf-Hi-TOseb96c-N47re-tl-Axhj-Cc-G9fd-CT3-Tdf2bmtxp.jpg

Get him, Sin.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Enjoying the pain doesn't somehow negate the toll it takes.

Exactly.

Which is why Joker can and has been put down without much effort plenty of times.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Frank would lose to Jason as well

Keep dreaming.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
And?

And you really think he can beat anyone on the Punisher level?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Not cherry picking just stating facts. I also didn't mention pis like you just did

But you did.

Joker has no business fighting elite martial artists, it's not what he does. It's not how he operates.

What department do you think Joker is superior at? Getting his butt kicked? If so, then yeah, he's sort of an expert when it comes to it.

Frank stomps withpot plot armour for Joker.

I agree... but who are you?

You registered in 2017 and barely posted?

Lurking most of the time, perhaps? Or it's your secondary account?

PM me, if you're afraid of big nasty Pr sniffing you out

Stilt, stop harrassing people.

And tbh, as much as I want to give you shit for lowballing Joker (which I think you're doing), Frank obviously has better feats. Too often we see that Joker has beaten Dick or Jason, but it's off panel so we don't actually get to see the fight. He's implied to be a lot of things, but he needs more specific feats.

Hey, I'm just curious.

He can keep his secrets.

--
Frank is consistent.

Joker relies on prep, specific scenarios, henchmen and toys.

This is a hand-to-hand match --- it's not Joker's area of expertise. It never has been.

Joker is a better shooter, I'll post scans when I get back

Punisher tags Spider-Man and Daredevil.

Both in h2h and when using guns.

Yeah, but Joker can use the DNA strike.

Oh, yes.

The DNA strike is his ace in the hole, pretty much an instant OHK attack.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hey, I'm just curious.

He can keep his secrets.

--
Frank is consistent.

Joker relies on prep, specific scenarios, henchmen and toys.

This is a hand-to-hand match --- it's not Joker's area of expertise. It never has been.

Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to say he relies on it. It's just his preferred way of doing shit.

Leave venomless Bane alone, though. That guy was written as a beast during Simon's Secret Six run.

What would you say, then? Then he just runs free and kills people with his bare hands?

Again, that's not how he operates. He's not Carnage. At the very least, he needs some basic weapons and the element of surprise.

Bane sure is tough even without venom, but Joker failed to tag him even once.

What Bane and Frank both have in common is that they don't mind getting tagged as long as they do their job done... yet Joker couldn't do even that.

And it wasn't during the Secret Six run.