Perpetua and The Writer (Animal Man) vs Yog Sothoth and Azathoth

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Lestov16
DC's two most powerful beings take on the most powerful deities of the Lovecraft pantheon. Fight takes place in an omniversal sized wrestling ring. Bloodlusted/ no Pis

What team wins?

MrMind
Stalemate

There are no fictional characters higher than azathoth and writer

CatL18
Originally posted by MrMind
Stalemate

There are no fictional characters higher than azathoth and writer
How about Demonbane?(joking)

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team 2

Galan007
Team 1 or stalemate, imo.

CosmicComet
The Writer may be on Azathoth's level but I dont know if Perpetua is

BrolyBlack
Perpetua multiverse is infinity larger than team 2

MrMind
Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Writer may be on Azathoth's level but I dont know if Perpetua is

she's not, but neither is Yog

vsbattles likes to wank cthulu mythos but even they know the writer is tier 0

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

MrMind
Yog is def above Perpetua

Astner
So is this limited to the Writer's appearance in Animal Man #26, or do we count his death in Suicide Squad #58 too?

https://i.imgur.com/XpoRAt3m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/anxe6atm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/X2n9hE1m.jpg

I mean, it's canon.

https://i.imgur.com/XKomcd8.png

MrMind
you already had this discussion where you were thoroughly debunked astner, why bring it up again?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t661265.html

CatL18
Dark multiverse is modal realism cosmology that everything is possible as cosmology.
Does Cthulu have cosmology which is comparable to Dark multiverse?

MrMind
Cthulu has concept way superior than Dark Multiverse

Originally posted by MrMind
azathoth sits above the infinite space time, creating outer gods and multiverses by merely dreaming. he's above space, time, archetypal concepts, existence and non existence, duality.

those outer gods he creates include Yog-Sothoth, who himself embody all there is and isn't, he contains infinite numbers of dimensionless, limitless beings. these outer gods can control anything below them as they see fit. the lowest of these outer gods sees infinitely layered worlds/possibilities/impossibilities as nothing more than marballs game without rules

all of existence will perish when azathoth wakes, as all will be azathoth again.

there are few beings in all fictions that can match azathoth, maybe the writer or overvoid from dc, few others from anime or chinese xianxia novels, but certainly no one from marvel

Astner
Originally posted by MrMind
you already had this discussion where you were thoroughly debunked astner, why bring it up again?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t661265.html
I'm not sure what part of my argument you think was debunked, Galan even conceded to it being a retcon of the character.
Originally posted by Galan007
You can't use Ostrander's rendition of Morrison from an entirely different issue to try and diminish what Morrison's avatar represented under Morrison himself. That's like me using showings from F4 #319 to try and diminish pre-retcon Beyonder.
Even if you consider this a retcon there are plenty of issues with the Pre-retcon Writer as a cosmic being, primarily his lack of feats.

You can certainly infer what the character should be capable of, but that's a poor substitute for actual feats at best.

MrMind
why would he needs feats when he is literally the writer himself

the actual representation of all dc writers from in story perspective, who wrote all dc comics in it's entirety

Astner
Originally posted by MrMind
why would he needs feats when he is literally the writer himself
He's not though. He's a "fiction suit" as Morrison puts it, and he's a fictional character like everyone else, even if Morrison intended for him to have some god-like qualities at the time.

Originally posted by MrMind
the actual representation of all dc writers from in story perspective, who wrote all dc comics in it's entirety
Where are you getting this from? Certainly not the comics.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Astner
Looking back at the thread it's interesting that Galan dismisses Suicide Squad #58 because Grant Morrison didn't write it, and Flex Mentallo because it was a Vertigo imprint rather than a DC imprint despite being written by Morrison.

Either way, from a technical standpoint the Writer (the character) is canonically dead. And as far as I'm aware Morrison hasn't even mentioned the character in any other work, from which a meaningful relation to the Overvoid could be made.

MrMind
Originally posted by Astner
He's not though. He's a "fiction suit" as Morrison puts it, and he's a fictional character like everyone else, even if Morrison intended for him to have some god-like qualities at the time.


Where are you getting this from? Certainly not the comics.

is metaphor lost in translation here...

"...mastermind behind the scenes...puppeteer who pull the strings...I'm your writer"

"to hurt me you'd have to get into real world and that's something you can never do, you can't get into my world but i can get into yours, i can fake the real world here on comic page"

he wrote himself into the story, then he literally pull out the comic book he's appearing in

or when he shows animal man his script on the computer

the writer in this story represent grant morrison but it can be geoff johns in doomsday clock or mark waid in kingodm come

the writer is not one person specifically, it represents all writers writing comic stories, it just happens to be morrison here because he happens to show up in this specific story.
https://imgur.com/a/hjIRE1Y

MrMind

Astner
Originally posted by MrMind
is metaphor lost in translation here...

"...mastermind behind the scenes...puppeteer who pull the strings...I'm your writer"

"to hurt me you'd have to get into real world and that's something you can never do, you can't get into my world but i can get into yours, i can fake the real world here on comic page"

he wrote himself into the story, then he literally pull out the comic book he's appearing in

or when he shows animal man his script on the computer
What argument are you trying to make? That Grant Morrison doesn't just speak through his fiction-suit but actually is his fiction-suit? All he really does is explain to Animal Man that he is a fictional character, and that he (referring to himself, and not his fiction-suit) isn't. It's a metafictional reference, but everything taking place in the story, as well as the rest of the DC Universe is 100% fictional.

Originally posted by MrMind
the writer in this story represent grant morrison but it can be geoff johns in doomsday clock or mark waid in kingodm come
No, the Writer is a character based on Grant Morrison that's currently deceased. There's no representation of Geoff Johns or Mard Waid as the Writer, or any implication that they're some kind of gods.

Originally posted by MrMind
the writer is not one person specifically,
There's absolutely no canon evidence to support this assertion.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by MrMind
I'm the one who helped made the writer wiki and a lot of dc cosmics pages on vsbattles you dummy

Wait, are YOU the Writer now?

Who wins,MrMind or Yogi/Azaroth or whatever?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Astner
No, the Writer is a character based on Grant Morrison that's currently deceased. There's no representation of Geoff Johns or Mard Waid as the Writer, or any implication that they're some kind of gods.


There's absolutely no canon evidence to support this assertion.

thumb up

MrMind
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wait, are YOU the Writer now?

Who wins,MrMind or Yogi/Azaroth or whatever?

I was real active on vsbattles during 2017 and 2018 after I got pissed off about comicvine, back then their whole wiki pages are still new and some of us formed a group on discord to discuss the tiering system, I helped with some of the dc cosmic characters pages. since that's where I have some knowledge.

they are much more advanced now, and I'm proud that there are few people who are extremely knowledgable on dc cosmology there.

this is someone I knew, check out his blogpost, the best dc cosmology article ever written, ever

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PrinceOfTheMorning/DC_Cosmology_-_From_a_Holistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon

DarkSaint85
I think you could win though.

CatL18
Originally posted by MrMind
Cthulu has concept way superior than Dark Multiverse
I thgnk it is part of modal realism cosmology because layered cosmology is only one of Infinite cosmology that modal realism cosmology has.
In Definition, Modal realism cosmology (Dark multiverse) hold every cosmology that sentient beings in multiverse have dreamed of.

CatL18
Originally posted by MrMind
I was real active on vsbattles during 2017 and 2018 after I got pissed off about comicvine, back then their whole wiki pages are still new and some of us formed a group on discord to discuss the tiering system, I helped with some of the dc cosmic characters pages. since that's where I have some knowledge.

they are much more advanced now, and I'm proud that there are few people who are extremely knowledgable on dc cosmology there.

this is someone I knew, check out his blogpost, the best dc cosmology article ever written, ever

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PrinceOfTheMorning/DC_Cosmology_-_From_a_Holistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon
BTW, aren't vswiki and Comicvine hugely biased for VN, Anime,Cthulu and against comics especially DC?

Galan007
Originally posted by Astner
Looking back at the thread it's interesting that Galan dismisses Suicide Squad #58 because Grant Morrison didn't write it, and Flex Mentallo because it was a Vertigo imprint rather than a DC imprint despite being written by Morrison.

Either way, from a technical standpoint the Writer (the character) is canonically dead. And as far as I'm aware Morrison hasn't even mentioned the character in any other work, from which a meaningful relation to the Overvoid could be made. Let's see if I can clarify a bit more...

The Writer, as he appeared in Animal Man, was meant to be a literal avatar of Morrison himself -- a literal representation of the guy who was writing the story in the real world. For all intents and purposes, he was Morrison, and dictated absolutely everything that happened in the story itself:

https://i.imgur.com/SLmRCnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GGiYMw1.jpg


So no, there really isn't a "higher authority" in comics than the guy who is writing the story you're reading.


That said, different writers can do whatever they want with characters later on(which is what Ostrander did with The Writer in Suicide Squad)... But that doesn't diminish The Writer's clearly-intended status within the pages of Animal Man(which is the specific version being used in this thread.)

If a thread specifies "pre-retcon" Beyonder, for example, we wouldn't use his loss against Kubik in F4 #319 to diminish him. Yes, they're canonically the same character, but where the thread is concerned, they're still treated as different versions all together. Same basic thing applies here.

Astner
I agree with you on that if someone wants to use one author's representation of a character that's perfectly fine. In fact I think it's preferable over the continuity composite, because characters tend to be consistent under any one author.

Originally posted by Galan007
Let's see if I can clarify a bit more...

The Writer, as he appeared in Animal Man, was meant to be a literal avatar of Morrison himself -- a literal representation of the guy who was writing the story in the real world. For all intents and purposes, he was Morrison, and dictated absolutely everything that happened in the story itself:

https://i.imgur.com/SLmRCnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GGiYMw1.jpg

So no, there really isn't a "higher authority" in comics than the guy who is writing the story you're reading.
You're using terms like "literal avatar" and "literal representation," so I'm assuming you're talking about a fiction-suit.

I just want to make this clear, because it seems like you're blurring the line between fiction and non-ficiton.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... not silly 'agents' of the RW writers, the actual writer and artist himself. thumb up

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t/41189154_S1.jpg

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t/41189155_S2.jpg
Would you, in this example consider John Byrne to be a "literal avatar" and "literal representation" of himself?

Galan007
Originally posted by Astner
I agree with you on that if someone wants to use one author's representation of a character that's perfectly fine. In fact I think it's preferable over the continuity composite, because characters tend to be consistent under any one author. Right, and that's all I'm saying.

The Writer, as he appeared in Animal Man, is the version of the character specified in this thread. So that's the version we should be using.

Originally posted by Astner
You're using terms like "literal avatar" and "literal representation," so I'm assuming you're talking about a fiction-suit.

I just want to make this clear, because it seems like you're blurring the line between fiction and non-ficiton. You can call it whatever you want. At the end of the day, that character was meant to represent Morrison himself: he was the guy writing the story we were reading, and crafted his avatar accordingly.

For all intents and purposes, the avatar was Morrison(yes, obviously in a fictional form.)

Originally posted by Astner
Would you, in this example consider John Byrne to be a "literal avatar" and "literal representation" of himself? I cannot speak to how Byrne was writing himself there(I know the late Mr Master liked to bring up those types of appearances to try and diminish anything involving writer avatars, but that's neither here nor there.) It's not uncommon for writer-analogues to popup in stories and have random characters clown them... It's happened in She-Hulk books, Hitman books, Lobo books, Deadpool books, F4 books, etc.

All that matters here is the level at which Morrison wrote his avatar in the Animal Man books specifically, as that is the character involved in this thread.

MrMind
when pre retcom TOAA came as jack kirby avatar, TOAA was regarded as writers' avatar across forums, not just kirby's avatar, and wanked to no end.

wonder why The Writer's different

Lestov16
Originally posted by MrMind
when pre retcom TOAA came as jack kirby avatar, TOAA was regarded as writers' avatar across forums, not just kirby's avatar, and wanked to no end.

wonder why The Writer's different

They really aren't. Just as The Writer was retconned to lose in Suicide Squad, TOAA was retconned to get his power stolen by Thanos

Also, what exactly puts Azathoth above Perpetua? All of reality could be said to be it's dream, but in that same manner, all of reality can be said to be the imagination of 5D imps, and Perpetua vastly outranks them.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So Galan, how exactly would Morrison be operating in the context of this thread? Does he have author authority over Azzy and Yog? And if not, how does he contribute to this thread?

Galan007
The cross-company lines certainly become a bit blurred in threads like this, but it should still fall under the 'full capacity' rule. So the Morrison avatar is assumed to be packing his full metafictional power/authority here.

Same vein as a theoretical "Presence vs. Marvel" thread. Even though the Presence, being associated solely with DC, doesn't have any direct 'authority' over anything in Marvel, we would still assume he's operating in his full capacity as God in such a thread.

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