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both CIS Off NO MORAL

would Superman be able to avoid Wally koing him?

No. Leaving this here...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11136/111361582/6622393-2933654609-RCO00.jpg

Also, same issue, Zoom was able to knock out the entire league before any if them had the chance to react and the Flashes, even though outpowered were still able to see his movement...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/57545365/SmartSelect_20200810-180222_Chrome.jpg.html

Carver is my bestie

Clark can't do a thing.

Originally posted by carver9
No. Leaving this here...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11136/111361582/6622393-2933654609-RCO00.jpg
Originally posted by carver9
Also, same issue, Zoom was able to knock out the entire league before any if them had the chance to react and the Flashes, even though outpowered were still able to see his movement...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/57545365/SmartSelect_20200810-180222_Chrome.jpg.html
Sucker punched, idiot.

No, he cannot.

Wally West is the fastest being in DC atm from what I gather. He was the only one who could keep up with Zoom who can beat up the league like statues and he's only gotten better since then (Not counting Dr. M power-up).

Originally posted by carver9
No. Leaving this here...


The part I found most impressive is that

1) Superman was flying
2) The Flash's were nowhere near their max and were STILL accelerating, especially Wally

This is pretty conclusive, and I'm not really sure why it upsets "some" Superman fan's. After Flash War, Wally doesn't even need to be amped to be as fast as Zoom.

Wally West is the fastest man alive, and it's not even close aside from Hunter. He's main-lined the SF for like 30 years. He time-travelled to Pre-Crisis and tore the Anti-Monitor to pieces, moving so fast, no heroes could see what even happened, like 40 years ago.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, he cannot.

Wally West is the fastest being in DC atm from what I gather. He was the only one who could keep up with Zoom who can beat up the league like statues and he's only gotten better since then (Not counting Dr. M power-up).
Tell that to DC comics. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The part I found most impressive is that

1) Superman was flying
2) The Flash's were nowhere near their max and were STILL accelerating, especially Wally

This is pretty conclusive, and I'm not really sure why it upsets "some" Superman fan's. After Flash War, Wally doesn't even need to be amped to be as fast as Zoom.

Wally West is the fastest man alive, and it's not even close aside from Hunter. He's main-lined the SF for like 30 years. He time-travelled to Pre-Crisis and tore the Anti-Monitor to pieces, moving so fast, no heroes could see what even happened, like 40 years ago.
Uh-huh. That's about as relevant as Superman actually beating Flash in a race. Or when he kept up with Barry going as fast as he could.

Races alongside Barry running as fast as he can:
https://ibb.co/4PFhQF8
https://ibb.co/VLV165n
https://ibb.co/H2G15mz
https://ibb.co/fx5TMdL

Superman outraces the Flash, when motivated by Luthor donating money if he wins. When asked how he did it, he said he just simply ran faster.
https://ibb.co/qdWkVJV
https://ibb.co/BqqJ3x1
https://ibb.co/pzhj2N7
https://ibb.co/TcgDtww
https://ibb.co/HHrzPkB
https://ibb.co/Mfq1JFR
https://ibb.co/58rv4jj
https://ibb.co/vP0KrzQ
https://ibb.co/Rpx9sjK
https://ibb.co/t84k8Rf
https://ibb.co/0yGsKBX
https://ibb.co/GsQvSjT


Wally isn't fast enough that Superman can't perceive him, never has been.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The part I found most impressive is that

1) Superman was flying
2) The Flash's were nowhere near their max and were STILL accelerating, especially Wally

This is pretty conclusive, and I'm not really sure why it upsets "some" Superman fan's. After Flash War, Wally doesn't even need to be amped to be as fast as Zoom.

Wally West is the fastest man alive, and it's not even close aside from Hunter. He's main-lined the SF for like 30 years. He time-travelled to Pre-Crisis and tore the Anti-Monitor to pieces, moving so fast, no heroes could see what even happened, like 40 years ago.

This. Also, the only reason I know he wasn't moving at his max (the Flashes) is because in the same comic, Lantern caught up to them, seen them coming and put up a wall to stop them.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Sucker punched, idiot.

He blitzed the entire team and he still couldn't react. Quite different from a sucker punch.

So Lantern has faster perceptions than Superman and WW. Nice.

Superman was never, is never, and not even remotely close to Flash levels. Wally is faster based on consistency, speed feats, and overall. That's not an opinion. Surfer has a better chance at reacting

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Superman was never, is never, and not even remotely close to Flash levels. Wally is faster based on consistency, speed feats, and overall. That's not an opinion. Surfer has a better chance at reacting
Shut up idiot. Originally posted by carver9
He blitzed the entire team and he still couldn't react. Quite different from a sucker punch.
You're talking about different zoom idiot.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Tell that to DC comics.

That is the current narrative at DC.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh-huh. That's about as relevant as Superman actually beating Flash in a race. Or when he kept up with Barry going as fast as he could.

Races alongside Barry running as fast as he can:
https://ibb.co/4PFhQF8
https://ibb.co/VLV165n
https://ibb.co/H2G15mz
https://ibb.co/fx5TMdL

Lol what? Why is it, that only Superman has different levels, but no one else can push themselves? A race is NOWHERE near as serious for a Flash when their family is at stake.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman outraces the Flash, when motivated by Luthor donating money if he wins. When asked how he did it, he said he just simply ran faster.
https://ibb.co/qdWkVJV
https://ibb.co/BqqJ3x1
https://ibb.co/pzhj2N7
https://ibb.co/TcgDtww
https://ibb.co/HHrzPkB
https://ibb.co/Mfq1JFR
https://ibb.co/58rv4jj
https://ibb.co/vP0KrzQ
https://ibb.co/Rpx9sjK
https://ibb.co/t84k8Rf
https://ibb.co/0yGsKBX
https://ibb.co/GsQvSjT

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11116/111163527/4186022-2585225899-IPwNV.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wally isn't fast enough that Superman can't perceive him, never has been.

Wrong. Happened years ago:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4c215540e2bee42cd845b706948bb12a

Wally West no longer needs Jesse Quick's speed to be as fast as Zoom. To them, Superman is a statue.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Flash-2016/Issue-50?id=136950

Just read Flash War. It conclusively proves that Wally West is definitely the fastest Flash. Wally >/= Hunter >> Barry >>> everyone else

Not fast enough to make Supes unable to perceive him. I.e. dozens to hundreds of times faster.

He is faster in the way a Cheetah is faster than a Lion. A significant percent. Not even multiples.

superman can perceive them.

https://i.postimg.cc/hPGRpPH0/Final-Crisis-007-010.jpg


but no, he's not as fast as them in a race obviously.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Not fast enough to make Supes unable to perceive him. I.e. dozens to hundreds of times faster.

He is faster in the way a Cheetah is faster than a Lion. A significant percent. Not even multiples.

Not true. Zoom was so fast, even Wally West could not perceive him or keep up:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140449/4681450-7557964248-35254.jpg

At his peak, Zoom is so fast, he could ghost Flash in a fight without them noticing.

Wally needed to steal extra speed from another speedster such as Jesse:
https://pm1.narvii.com/6071/b6d00c9b0eab6a075254ae2f6070f271c57497ac_hq.jpg

Now however, Wally has gotten fast enough to keep up with him:
https://i.postimg.cc/NG81KHMr/RCO015-1583385388.jpg < Pay attention to this scan. Wally specifically says, he's running as fast as he can and is barely able to keep up. Then he instantly pushes past his limitations, which was already multiple levels above when Superman while flying, could not keep up.
https://i.postimg.cc/659Cnp2b/RCO016-1583385388.jpg < Then he catches up, speeds past him, and circles back around casually.
https://i.postimg.cc/5NnL3W84/RCO017-1583385388.jpg

Which is why I'd argue if Wally wanted, Superman would be a statue. Which is aligned with what happend:
https://i.postimg.cc/tJzPwLfz/RCO015-1582385726.jpg

Wally and Zoom are so fast, not even Barry should be able to react to them imo. Superman shouldn't even be in the conversation tbh.

Just to be clear, these are extreme situations, where the Flash is multiple levels above his regular limitations.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
superman can perceive them.

https://i.postimg.cc/hPGRpPH0/Final-Crisis-007-010.jpg


but no, he's not as fast as them in a race obviously.

Seems like he heard them. Look at the panel. That is why the ? is there.

Lmao carver is an idiot

Originally posted by carver9
Seems like he heard them. Look at the panel. That is why the ? is there. jfc. or maybe it's because superman was surprised to see barry allen alive again, because he had been dead for decades before that.

That and they said they were moving sub-light at the time. I think we can give Supes enough credit to assume he can keep up with sub-light foes.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That is the current narrative at DC.

It really isn't.

Except it was the multiverse was at stake and Barry was going as fast as he could.

Flash rebirth is non canon at this point.

Zoom was never as fast as he was in his original appearance. Kal L oneshotted him under Geoff Johns just a few years later.

Originally posted by lft4ded
That and they said they were moving sub-light at the time. I think we can give Supes enough credit to assume he can keep up with sub-light foes. "have to reach superluminal velocity!"

THEN superman sees them.


good try though

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Flash-2016/Issue-50?id=136950

Just read Flash War. It conclusively proves that Wally West is definitely the fastest Flash. Wally >/= Hunter >> Barry >>> everyone else
Its one showing, just as relevant as Superman beating Barry in a race. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not true. Zoom was so fast, even Wally West could not perceive him or keep up:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140449/4681450-7557964248-35254.jpg

At his peak, Zoom is so fast, he could ghost Flash in a fight without them noticing.

Wally needed to steal extra speed from another speedster such as Jesse:
https://pm1.narvii.com/6071/b6d00c9b0eab6a075254ae2f6070f271c57497ac_hq.jpg

Now however, Wally has gotten fast enough to keep up with him:
https://i.postimg.cc/NG81KHMr/RCO015-1583385388.jpg < Pay attention to this scan. Wally specifically says, he's running as fast as he can and is barely able to keep up. Then he instantly pushes past his limitations, which was already multiple levels above when Superman while flying, could not keep up.
https://i.postimg.cc/659Cnp2b/RCO016-1583385388.jpg < Then he catches up, speeds past him, and circles back around casually.
https://i.postimg.cc/5NnL3W84/RCO017-1583385388.jpg

Which is why I'd argue if Wally wanted, Superman would be a statue. Which is aligned with what happend:
https://i.postimg.cc/tJzPwLfz/RCO015-1582385726.jpg

Wally and Zoom are so fast, not even Barry should be able to react to them imo. Superman shouldn't even be in the conversation tbh.

Just to be clear, these are extreme situations, where the Flash is multiple levels above his regular limitations.
You're an idiot if you think Zoom was always that fast. Bizarro matched him in a race and Kal L oneshotted him. Even Jesse Quick oneshotted him, all under Geoff Johns.

Even in Flash Forward where Wally was wanked to hell, he stated that taking on Superman is suicide.

Originally posted by lft4ded
That and they said they were moving sub-light at the time. I think we can give Supes enough credit to assume he can keep up with sub-light foes.
Wut? They had to go faster than ever just to reach Darkseid and beyond lightspeed.

https://i.imgur.com/BxSVkqe.jpg

Which Superman also did BTW.

http://i.imgur.com/bTTGYKl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0ftYh3c.jpg

So is Superman faster than the Flash, or not?

Originally posted by Stoic
So is Superman faster than the Flash, or not? Nope, not even close if flash doesn't want it to be.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wut? They had to go faster than ever just to reach Darkseid and beyond lightspeed.

https://i.imgur.com/BxSVkqe.jpg

Which Superman also did BTW.

http://i.imgur.com/bTTGYKl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0ftYh3c.jpg

Up for interpretation? It looked like the Omega beams were still gaining on them after they passed Superman so they may not have crossed the threshold to beyond light at that point.

Originally posted by Stoic
So is Superman faster than the Flash, or not?

This thread ended on the first page. Its no comparison. Flash is far faster.

Wally is definitely faster than Superman(as he should be.) I mean, Tempus Fuginaut outright stated that Wally is the fastest being in the multiverse:
https://i.imgur.com/W0xg7A7.jpg

But this thread isn't asking who would win in a race. It's asking if Wally is faster to the point where even a CIS-free/bloodlusted Superman would be unable to perceive or react to his attack.

Originally posted by Galan007


But this thread isn't asking who would win in a race. It's asking if Wally is faster to the point where even a CIS-free/bloodlusted Superman would be unable to perceive or react to his attack.


pretty much

Originally posted by lft4ded
Up for interpretation? It looked like the Omega beams were still gaining on them after they passed Superman so they may not have crossed the threshold to beyond light at that point.
It isn't up for interpretation though.

off topic question....isnt barry the source/creator of the sf? has it been explained why he isnt the fastest?

He creates it as he runs, but Wally is more in tune with the speed force

Like cover versions of songs which are better than the originals, I guess.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He creates it as he runs, but Wally is more in tune with the speed force

Like cover versions of songs which are better than the originals, I guess.


good analogy

Originally posted by abhilegend
It isn't up for interpretation though.

literally stated that nothing slower than light can even enter darkseid's stronghold. flash states they have to reach superluminal velocity.

THEN superman tracks and identifies them.

When did they reach it? Them saying they have to reach it doesnt mean it happened at that point. Show us where they reached it and then prove it.

Originally posted by carver9
When did they reach it? Them saying they have to reach it doesnt mean it happened at that point. Show us where they reached it and then prove it.


Oh you idiot.

Originally posted by Galan007


But this thread isn't asking who would win in a race. It's asking if Wally is faster to the point where even a CIS-free/bloodlusted Superman would be unable to perceive or react to his attack.


yep,


TBH, I can see supes perceiving him coming, but wont be able to react to it fast enough

It has been the other way around actually. Superman moved so fast that Wally saw it coming but couldn't do anything about it.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/6/68374/1446845-supesshieldbreak.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
When did they reach it? Them saying they have to reach it doesnt mean it happened at that point. Show us where they reached it and then prove it. https://i.imgur.com/WNFTBI3.jpg

So the very fact that the Flashes breached the personal singularity and "got to" Darkseid, means they must have been moving FTL. If they would have been moving slower than light speed, they wouldn't have been able to get inside the singularity to begin with.

Carver: Actually Galan, they could have slowed down after meeting Darkseid. Because things.

Galan: Also carver, Black Racer was explicitly stated to be able to move at the speed of light in that series. So the very fact that the Flashes consistently/perpetually outran him(even after entering Darkseid's singularity) means they must have still been moving FTL.

...Which, ironically enough, coincides with Wally's "superluminal velocity" statement in the panels just before Superman perceives/identifies Barry.


Glad we nipped that one in the bud.

Lol

It just saves so much time

Originally posted by abhilegend
It has been the other way around actually. Superman moved so fast that Wally saw it coming but couldn't do anything about it.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/6/68374/1446845-supesshieldbreak.jpg


huh.. neat

Originally posted by Galan007
Galan: Also carver, Black Racer was explicitly stated to be able to move at the speed of light in that series. So the very fact that the Flashes consistently/perpetually outran him(even after entering Darkseid's singularity) means they must have still been moving FTL.

...Which, ironically enough, coincides with Wally's "superluminal velocity" statement in the panels just before Superman perceives/identifies Barry.


Glad we nipped that one in the bud.

I still don't see the panels that way.

Time stops at light speed for the Flashes. The Omega beams are closing in on Wally and Barry during panels 3, 4 and 5. The next panel Wally, Barry and the Omega beams go speeding past Supes. If time stopped then the Omega beams wouldn't have been following them still. Pointed in their direction, yes, but that panel shows me they're still gaining on the Flashes.

Wally is still telling Barry "Together". "We'regoingintogether..." They may have been about to do the last push through but in the panel with Superman it doesn't like they hadn't quite done it.

because the omega sanction beams arent bound by time. just like the radion bullet, they can be fired ACROSS time.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
because the omega sanction beams arent bound by time. just like the radion bullet, they can be fired ACROSS time.

Flash Fact? Barry seemed to think a time stop was important. Comics logic?

ya maybe it was just a slip, because the whole point of the radion bullet and omega sanction beams is that they could basically be fired at their target from any point in time, to hit a target at any point in time.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
ya maybe it was just a slip, because the whole point of the radion bullet and omega sanction beams is that they could basically be fired at their target from any point in time, to hit a target at any point in time.

Yeah, but that description would make them an insta-kill the moment they're fired. They way they're portrayed though they actually have to travel to the target and the target can apparently elude them if they're fast enough, making distance and time both a factor/limit of the Omega beams.

But that would be why they needed to go above light speed - in a never-ending instant there is no 'time' for them to get hit.

Can Superman resist a speed steal, or is that completely off of the table? Remember that this is Wally without the CIS.

The op isn't clear. Is wally blitzing from battle distance and trying to land 1 punch?

Or is this a fight?

To effectively answer question we need more detail.

Without CIS h1.

Originally posted by Stoic
Without CIS h1.

You really need to learn to read.

Originally posted by h1a8
The op isn't clear. Is wally blitzing from battle distance and trying to land 1 punch?

Or is this a fight?

To effectively answer question we need more detail.

Originally posted by MrMind
both CIS Off NO MORAL

would Superman be able to avoid Wally koing him?

Here you go h1. They are fighting to the death. Still confused?

Originally posted by Stoic
Here you go h1. They are fighting to the death. Still confused? That is the correct response to my question.
I'll just take your word for it. So this is a fight to the ko.

To the death or KO?

ANYWAY, I see one of the options is speed steal

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
To the death or KO?

ANYWAY, I see one of the options is speed steal

Death. Just look at the choices in the poll.

Originally posted by Stoic
Death. Just look at the choices in the poll.

It's all contradictory. In the OP he asks if Wally can KO Clark.

Well then MM should speak up, because the poll has a lot of murder murder kill kill in it.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well then MM should speak up, because the poll has a lot of murder murder kill kill in it.

You mean two options?

Bump

I know the discussion was over. But I want to add some information about the FC scene

Flashes already had reached lightspeed/time-stop velocity BEFORE they passed by Superman, As it clearly states in the Essential Edition copy

"Only we can divert those omega finder beams! At lightspeed time stops! Death too! Flash fact!"
"We DID it wally! Now go!"
https://ibb.co/S6YPYkP

Combining the fact that even in this copy Barry explicitly states they need to go FTL speed to survive Darkseid's singularity. And we all know they did
https://ibb.co/vVxJzv3

So even if you want to lowball this scene as hard as possible, Superman at least performed a lightspeed reaction if not FTL

Superman still has no way of resisting speed steal
A CISless Wally would always go for speed steal


Nothing Superman can do.

He can react, if that is what is needed to save the day. He can also resist the speed steal under this condition.

Originally posted by Magnon
He can react, if that is what is needed to save the day. He can also resist the speed steal under this condition.
Any reason why you think he can resist it?
Wally has control of this, not superman

I dont think there is any proof to suggest Superman can resist it. On the contrary, Wally literally states he could steal Superman's speed and the speed steal did work on Superman

But the OP seems to ask can Superman react to a CISless wally not a Flash VS Superman thread. Though the options op gave and the description on the topic seem to imply otherwise