Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So I recently talked this over with Bada and Pr, and we're all in agreement to allow this on sort of a trial basis...


The intent of this thread is to act as a compendium of sorts where any and all discussions pertaining to "Dragon Ball vs. Comics" are allowed.

-Can comic character 'x' replicate this showing from DB character 'x'..? - Perfectly fine.
-Who is the weakest comic character who can tank 'x' blast from DB..? - No problem.
-Comic character 'x' vs. DB character 'x'..? - Go for it.

Any DB/comics debates are fine as long as you heathens keep it civil(seriously, NO trolling/bashing/flaming/etc. will be tolerated), and there is not to be any bleed-over into other threads in the CBF whatsoever. ALL cross-genre talk needs to stay in this one thread.

If the above "rules" aren't followed, this thread will be closed and DB discussions will be blacklisted again. No exceptions.


So with all of that being said... Your move!

https://i.imgur.com/lb2cf1q.png

IMO, After Frieza saga, the adult Saiyans are all above top tier. I'd rank Super Perfect Cell as skyfather level.

Also pinning the thread should be done.

Oh wow this is awesome!

I think we should start by trying to figure out where the characters from each saga would compare to comic character.

Like would the more powerful DB heroes from the Saiyan saga be in the herald tier? What about the heroes after the Saiyan saga? etc.

Ok I'll start.

Who is the weakest person who can dodge saiyans saga piccolo's special beam cannon from point blank range?

It went to the moon in roughly a couple of seconds which makes it around lightspeed or at least highly relativistic.

(And yes the dragon ball moon is confirmed to be just as far away as the actual moon)

great thread idea! surprised you guys are finally allowing this.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Ok I'll start.

Who is the weakest person who can dodge saiyans saga piccolo's special beam cannon from point blank range?

It went to the moon in roughly a couple of seconds which makes it around lightspeed or at least highly relativistic.

(And yes the dragon ball moon is confirmed to be just as far away as the actual moon) it would have to be a higher end speedster imho. like you said, piccolo's blast was moving around light speed for sure

Actually I think I'm remembering wrong. It wasnt the special beam cannon but an ordinary one handed blast.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'd rank Super Perfect Cell as skyfather level. Reasons?

Originally posted by LordGod
Oh wow this is awesome!

I think we should start by trying to figure out where the characters from each saga would compare to comic character.

Like would the more powerful DB heroes from the Saiyan saga be in the herald tier? What about the heroes after the Saiyan saga? etc. I think you could make a pretty convincing argument for the notable characters from the Saiyan saga(ie. Goku, Vegeta, Nappa, and Piccolo) to be in the herald tier.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Actually I think I'm remembering wrong. It wasnt the special beam cannon but an ordinary one handed blast. Yep.
https://i.ibb.co/nsHmb4L/Dragon-Ball-c208-v18-p197-Full-Color-danke.jpg

*Pretty sure it was the same in the anime.

I'm sure Piccolo beam canon is faster than that attack?

Also, an argument can be made that the more powerful a character gets, the faster their attacks are.

I'm sure it is too. I was just correcting myself. The question still stands who is the weakest/slowest who can dodge that from point blank?

Originally posted by carver9
Also, an argument can be made that the more powerful a character gets, the faster their attacks are. Has to work that way.

there's no way i'd believe that a blast from SSJ3 goku "only" moves as fast as a blast from saiyan saga goku. seems like when a character in db gets more powerful, EVERYTHING they do is scaled up.

Originally posted by abhilegend
IMO, After Frieza saga, the adult Saiyans are all above top tier. I'd rank Super Perfect Cell as skyfather level.

I personally wouldn't put Cell at Skyfather levels but he is 100% high trans. Thanos imo is the epitome of high trans and Cell would completely annihilate him with ease if they fought. Complete ease. The only argument would be attacking Cell mind. Outside of that, its a massacre.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm sure it is too. I was just correcting myself. The question still stands who is the weakest/slowest who can dodge that from point blank? i honestly think it would take flash tier speed.

in the page galan posted, it looks like the beam piccolo uses hits the moon pretty much instantly.....in the same freaking panel where he fires it.

Originally posted by carver9
I personally wouldn't put Cell at Skyfather levels but he is 100% high trans. Thanos imo is the epitome of high trans and Cell would completely annihilate him with ease if they fought. Complete ease. The only argument would be attacking Cell mind. Outside of that, its a massacre. cell has the power output of a skyfather but lacks the versatility imo.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
cell has the power output of a skyfather but lacks the versatility imo.

Agreed

Would this method work (Vegeta's new ability) work on, say, Rebirth Superman, being that his body absorbs sunlight and or being a culmination of other versions of himself?
https://i.postimg.cc/N9WtDGFr/psu.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/wRLpGKR4/eh.jpg

Would Thanos tank Vegeta's final flash against Cell?

Let's try to scale it up from the beginning and move on to later.

We need to start from a baseline.

For example.

Let's star with:

a). Master Roshi blowing up the moon with effort:

https://i.ibb.co/sWkt1kh/9ae8d9d73c48f7653e2535c39278fbd8297a9bc0r1-1080-1612v2-hq.jpg https://i.ibb.co/yW859yQ/35b4b46fa9cf214b392fd4236b26dedebe3560c6r1-1080-1621v2-hq.jpg

b). Piccolo blowing up the moon with a casual KI blast:

https://i.ibb.co/BcCwr3L/cKeoKcJ.png https://i.ibb.co/CHcPh6j/LkYHavl.png

Weakest character/tier that can do it? Mid-herald?

Originally posted by Galan007
Reasons?

I think you could make a pretty convincing argument for the notable characters from the Saiyan saga(ie. Goku, Vegeta, Nappa, and Piccolo) to be in the herald tier.

Yep.
https://i.ibb.co/nsHmb4L/Dragon-Ball-c208-v18-p197-Full-Color-danke.jpg

*Pretty sure it was the same in the anime.
Perfect Cell casually no sold SS1 Vegeta putting all his energy in a kick and casually beat down Trunks who had surpassed Vegeta by considerable amount. I don't think anyone below skyfather can tank such an attack.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Would Thanos tank Vegeta's final flash against Cell?

This?

ugdge3Cn9L0

Lol... would either be jacked up tremendously or turned to dust.

edit due to Galan making a good point and this not applying.

Originally posted by Galan007
You also have to factor in the energy expenditure.

It took every bit of power Roshi had(stuffed inside his most powerful blast) to moon-bust.

Flip side, Piccolo did it with a generic hand blast, and wasn't visibly drained afterward.

I think it would take a herald to do that at all... Never mind do it with very little effort. /shrug

I don't have the manga in front of me -- so the next question would be, who is the next character who no sold an effort ki blast from Piccolo , and what would be the general level needed to do that in comics .

@Phil

A rookie GL could do it since Jessica on low battery shielded against a supernova.

Originally posted by carver9
This?

ugdge3Cn9L0

Lol... would either be jacked up tremendously or turned to dust.

Idk Carver.

Thanos tanks blackholes pretty thoroughly and the Cell Saga tops out at Solar System level.

I think he would be singed but whole.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Idk Carver.

Thanos tanks blackholes pretty thoroughly and the Cell Saga tops out at Solar System level.

I think he would be singed but whole.

Youre using his highs though. We are talking about average portrayals. Terrax tanked a black hole as well and he would get turned to dust from this attack.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
@Phil

A rookie GL could do it since Jessica on low battery shielded against a supernova.

Off of pure durability or shields?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Idk Carver.

Thanos tanks blackholes pretty thoroughly and the Cell Saga tops out at Solar System level.

I think he would be singed but whole.
Black holes in comics are as effective as Yamcha in DBZ.

Originally posted by carver9
Youre using his highs though. We are talking about average portrayals.

Thanos' highs are well above surviving black holes.

Originally posted by carver9
Off of pure durability or shields?

Shields. Not on default durability.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Thanos' highs are well above surviving black holes.

So youre saying Terrax would be ok from that attack as well?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Shields. Not on default durability.

Seems like Philo question was based on pure durability.

Can someone refresh my memory on how powerlevels work? Because it might also help to figure out where DB characters compare to comic characters.

For instance- if a character in DB has a powerlevel of 3,000, does it mean they can stalemate 3 different characters with powerlevels of 1,000?

Originally posted by Galan007
Nappa.

...And mind you, Nappa was only about 13% stronger than Piccolo during the Saiyan saga, and still throttled him casually.

So we have:
a). Piccolo easily moon-busting
b). Nappa no-selling Piccolo with more effort than the moon busting.

In essence -- which comic book character can/has no-sold a moon-busting mid-herald?

Say, for example, which characters has no-sold Beta Ray Bill and stomped him? Or Gladiator? I dunno -- the question becomes which characters have actually shown to moon-bust , and then gotten no-sold and stomped by a character

Originally posted by LordGod
Can someone refresh my memory on how powerlevels work? Because it might also help to figure out where DB characters compare to comic characters.

For instance- if a character in DB has a powerlevel of 3,000, does it mean they can stalemate 3 different characters with powerlevels of 1,000?

A 3000 pl character mudstomps 3 x 1000 pl characters.

Same way an adult would beat three fourth graders that total his weight.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
@Phil

A rookie GL could do it since Jessica on low battery shielded against a supernova.


Rookie GL's also took down the sentient sector.


Defended against its attacks, and shrunk it down.

Originally posted by LordGod
Can someone refresh my memory on how powerlevels work? Because it might also help to figure out where DB characters compare to comic characters.

For instance- if a character in DB has a powerlevel of 3,000, does it mean they can stalemate 3 different characters with powerlevels of 1,000? PLs stopped mattering after the Namek saga, because the characters became too powerful... Even though you can easily approximate an accurate high-end PL for post-Boo saga Goku using established canon sources/multipliers. But that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, PLs aren't linear like that. The implication is that if a significant gap exists between you and your opponent(s), you can defeat an army of them. The "dogpiling" approach doesn't really work for weaker characters in DB.

PLs also don't work linearly when you talk about energy projection. For example, Saiyan saga Vegeta(PL=18,000) is the weakest confirmed planet-buster in the series... But that doesn't mean a character with a PL of 36,000 'only' has enough output to destroy two earths.

^

It's easy to debunk it as that linear when you consider the powerlevel of the farmer, the powerlevel of Piccolo , and realize that a (few) hundred farmers or so can't bust the moon, lol.

Originally posted by abhilegend
IMO, After Frieza saga, the adult Saiyans are all above top tier. I'd rank Super Perfect Cell as skyfather level.


I disagree.


Energy projection wise, the series tops out around planetary/solar system level.

Skyfathers are casual galaxy busters. Even in Super, you won't see that kind of power.


With the notable exception of Beerus and Goku creating shockwaves that Kai's claim would destroy the universe. But it's a questionable feat, as it's never been repeated once in the series, even by the likes of Broly in legendary SSJ mode.

Originally posted by cdtm
I disagree.


Energy projection wise, the series tops out around planetary/solar system level.

Skyfathers are casual galaxy busters. Even in Super, you won't see that kind of power.


With the notable exception of Beerus and Goku creating shockwaves that Kai's claim would destroy the universe. But it's a questionable feat, as it's never been repeated once in the series, even by the likes of Broly in legendary SSJ mode.
Skyfathers aren't galaxy buster at all.

We'll get to skyfathers soon enough.

Please don't entertain cdtm on anything dragonball related.

Originally posted by carver9
Please don't entertain cdtm on anything dragonball related.

How does it feel to not be the only one wrong on something?


You have a lot of company that's wrong about Dragon Ball relative power levels, compares to comic book characters.

Originally posted by cdtm
With the notable exception of Beerus and Goku creating shockwaves that Kai's claim would destroy the universe. But it's a questionable feat, as it's never been repeated once in the series, even by the likes of Broly in legendary SSJ mode. Don't see why we'd question the Kais, when you can literally see the shockwaves spreading across the entire universe..? Regardless, it likely hasn't been repeated because in the same fight, Goku learned how to deliver punches in his God form without causing that type of collateral damage.

And during that fight, Goku/Beerus also produced the "super dense energy ball"... Which even Whis confirmed would have destroyed the universe if Beerus hadn't nullified it.

So any way you slice it, the battle between n00b-SSG Goku and a massively suppressed Beerus was universal.

----

Either way, I'm curious to see where Phil's going with this.

@Galan...

The Beerus and Goku fight, wouldn't it be Universal PLUS since it was going to destroy the dimension of the Kais and heaven and hell?

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't see why we'd question the Kais, when you can literally see the shockwaves spreading across the entire universe..? Regardless, it likely hasn't been repeated because in the same fight, Goku learned how to deliver punches in his God form without causing that type of collateral damage.

And during that fight, Goku/Beerus also produced the "super dense energy ball"... Which even Whis confirmed would have destroyed the universe if Beerus hadn't nullified it.

So any way you slice it, the battle between n00b-SSG Goku and a massively suppressed Beerus was universal.

----

Either way, I'm curious to see where Phil's going with this.

It's not just Goku, though.

Broly or Freeza sure never learned to suppress shockwaves, much less had a problem in creating them.

I mean if this kind of thing happened in a comic book (Say, Genis-Vell shoots an abstract being through the head, which totally did happen) and was never repeated ever again, I'm pretty sure we'd be arguing it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Delph would be proud, Galan.

Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...

The Beerus and Goku fight, wouldn't it be Universal PLUS since it was going to destroy the dimension of the Kais and heaven and hell?


You do know a dimension isn't a universe, right?

Originally posted by cdtm
It's not just Goku, though.

Broly or Freeza sure never learned to suppress shockwaves, much less had a problem in creating them.

I mean if this kind of thing happened in a comic book (Say, Genis-Vell shoots an abstract being through the head, which totally did happen) and was never repeated ever again, I'm pretty sure we'd be arguing it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Frieza destroyed a planet but Goku never did, so i guess that means Goku isn't planetary?

Originally posted by carver9
Frieza destroyed a planet but Goku never did, so i guess that means Goku isn't planetary?

Why would Goku want to destroy a planet?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX



No, that's a .


For flawed logic. There's a big difference between intentionally destroying a planet, and involuntarily creating a universe ending shockwave every time you throw a punch.


The fact is, Goku would never intentionally destroy a planet. While Freeza should be creating shockwaves left and right every time he hits Goku, since not doing so is something Goku needed to learn how to do.


Since you bought into his flawed logic, let's make it two .


One for Carv, one for Deadpool.

Originally posted by cdtm
Why would Goku want to destroy a planet?

Frieza destroyed a planet but Cell never did, so i guess that means Cell isn't planetary. Fat Buu as well. Your argument is boo boo and this is why you should get ignored.

Krillin can't city bust. Yamcha can't building bust. Tien cant building bust. Poor Chazu. CDTM logic.

Originally posted by carver9
Frieza destroyed a planet but Cell never did, so i guess that means Cell isn't planetary. Fat Buu as well. Your argument is boo boo and this is why you should get ignored.

You just made this argument. And you're still wrong.


You're arguing apples to oranges.

Originally posted by Galan007
So I recently talked this over with Bada and Pr, and we're all in agreement to allow this on sort of a trial basis...


The intent of this thread is to act as a compendium of sorts where any and all discussions pertaining to "Dragon Ball vs. Comics" are allowed.

-Can comic character 'x' replicate this showing from DB character 'x'..? - Perfectly fine.
-Who is the weakest comic character who can tank 'x' blast from DB..? - No problem.
-Comic character 'x' vs. DB character 'x'..? - Go for it.

Any DB/comics debates are fine as long as you heathens keep it civil(seriously, NO trolling/bashing/flaming/etc. will be tolerated), and there is not to be any bleed-over into other threads in the CBF whatsoever. ALL cross-genre talk needs to stay in this one thread.

If the above "rules" aren't followed, this thread will be closed and DB discussions will be blacklisted again. No exceptions.


So with all of that being said... Your move!

https://i.imgur.com/lb2cf1q.png

Does this means a D&D vs Comics thread is possible? Because Drizzt would work a few hairy mutants

Originally posted by carver9
Krillin can't city bust. Yamcha can't building bust. Tien cant building bust. Poor Chazu. CDTM logic.


Straw man. I never argued this.


Did you really ignore my post, or did it simply go over your head?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
it was pretty clear that piccolo couldn't do a damn thing to nappa.

so if we are assuming that piccolo was mid herald at the time, then it would definitely take a high herald to rape him as easily as nappa did imo. It was definitely obvious that Piccolo was helpless against Nappa. That's why he(Piccolo) was trying to get Gohan pissed and blast Nappa instead -- his own power was not enough to cause any real damage. Based on that, we can logically say that Nappa could have either:
a.) Outright tanked a moon-buster from Piccolo.
-or-
b.) Easily deflected a moon-buster from Piccolo.

Hard to say what sort of comic character has the raw durability to tank a moon-buster, though. abhi mentioned Kurse; I'd probably agree with that.

Originally posted by cdtm
It's not just Goku, though.

Broly or Freeza sure never learned to suppress shockwaves, much less had a problem in creating them.

I mean if this kind of thing happened in a comic book (Say, Genis-Vell shoots an abstract being through the head, which totally did happen) and was never repeated ever again, I'm pretty sure we'd be arguing it should be taken with a grain of salt. Like I said: if you don't want to accept the shockwave feat, that's fine... Because they still generated an energy ball that would have destroyed the universe later on(per Whis.) So either way, their fight was clearly universal in scale.

...But let's refrain from talking about God-level power for a bit. I'm much more curious to see how 'weaker' DB characters compare to comic characters. I'm sure we'll get to the God tier soon enough.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Does this means a D&D vs Comics thread is possible? Because Drizzt would work a few hairy mutants Just DB stuff for now, because it seems like there's more of an interest.

Let's say we all agree that we see Piccolo as a mid-herald. It's hard to find an equivalent, given the myriad of abilities comic book characters have -- but would Gladiator? Beta Ray Bill? Black Adam? be good analogies, in general? I don't think they can destroy the moon anywhere as easily as Piccolo did -- but I digress. For the sake of the discussion.

I'm asking, because once we have a proper approximation, we can move on and gauge Nappa in parallel -- as we have to find a character and/or tier who treats those above the same way Nappa treated Piccolo.

I know Sentry/Thanos treated Beta Ray Bill kind of similar? Ultraman did Black Adam? Annihilus for Gladiator https://imgur.com/a/ENDmn03]?

My first inclination was BRB-level.

But it's hard because Piccolo's feat = energy projection. So even though Bill can moon-bust, it almost certainly wouldn't happen with energy projection. mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
My first inclination was BRB-level.

But it's hard because Piccolo's feat = energy projection. So even though Bill can moon-bust, it almost certainly wouldn't happen with energy projection. mmm My mental gauge is generally they can bust a moon and they can tank a moon busting attack -- while at the same time being kind of bricks with EP .

It's hard -- but once we get past a baseline, it's easier since we look at how the baseline compares to stronger characters -- and thus what tier those characters technically are.

I'd say either Beta Ray or Black Adam are good starting points personally. I can't really imagine anyone weaker then them who could eat a moon destroying attack?

black adam is a good starter imo. even if he's on the higher end of who can soak piccolo's blast.

and i see where philo is going with this, the sneaky devil.

because even if you just have piccolo as a bottom of the barrel mid herald, then it would still take someone on the highest end of mid herald (or even low end of high herald) to stomp him as easy as nappa did.

and if nappa is somewhere in that realm then it would already put vegeta well into the high herald category. and that's BEFORE you even get to namek.

Which explains fts like this. Frieza not even using a portion of his power, destroying a planet effortlessly with 1 finger...

LCUd2mxkl3o

Or Cell standing there letting above planetary beings pound and blast on him without even flinching or acknowledging them.

It is what it is.

And I also assume Phil is *just* talking about DB energy projection and relative durability. So even if Saiyan saga Vegeta is a high-heraldish in those categories, it doesn't mean he can automatically beat someone like, say, Flash.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
black adam is a good starter imo. even if he's on the higher end of who can soak piccolo's blast.

and i see where philo is going with this, the sneaky devil.

because even if you just have piccolo as a bottom of the barrel mid herald, then it would still take someone on the highest end of mid herald (or even low end of high herald) to stomp him as easy as nappa did.

and if nappa is somewhere in that realm then it would already put vegeta well into the high herald category. and that's BEFORE you even get to namek. Galan said that there was only a 13% difference between Piccolo and Nappa.

You really think sich a slight difference would catapult nappa into a completely different tier like that?

Originally posted by Galan007
It is what it is.

And I also assume Phil is *just* talking about DB energy projection and relative durability. So even if Saiyan saga Vegeta is a high-heraldish in those categories, it doesn't mean he can automatically beat someone like, say, Flash.

Flash is unique in his own way. His speed steal alone would be problematic. He won't be punchimg Cell to sleep though.

Didn't Goku after Cell have to turn Super Saiyan once just to handle 40 tons of weight for training?

Originally posted by Newjak
Didn't Goku after Cell have to turn Super Saiyan once just to handle 40 tons of weight for training?



On a planet with extreme gravity.

That's the lowest of lowest showings and Kid Goku would stomp Thor by the way. Hell, Jackie Chun could.

Originally posted by Galan007
It is what it is.

And I also assume Phil is *just* talking about DB energy projection and relative durability. So even if Saiyan saga Vegeta is a high-heraldish in those categories, it doesn't mean he can automatically beat someone like, say, Flash. This and also average ballpark. DB characters have one writer so theres no such thing as high portrayal -- they simply are. They're a straight line while comic book characters are all over the place varying by writer.

And while you can argue that J'onn's TP or Flash/Superman's speed are above, that is not the point, we're not focusing on particular abilities, but on the overall picture.

So if we agree on Piccolo -- where'd Nappa land to treat him like that?

Originally posted by LordGod
Galan said that there was only a 13% difference between Piccolo and Nappa.

You really think sich a slight difference would catapult nappa into a completely different tier like that? Again: this isn't the real world, where strength-differentials translate linearly. For example, in the real world if person 'a' can bench press 200lbs, and person 'b' can bench press 228lbs, then person 'b' is 13% stronger. End of story.

This is DB, where relatively minor differences in power can equate to massively one-sided stomps(ie. exponential growth.) Yes, on paper there was 'only' a 13% difference in power between Piccolo and Nappa... But that was still enough of a difference for Nappa to casually toy with Piccolo(and the rest of the B-team), before ultimately one-shot killing Piccolo without taxing himself in the slightest.

Originally posted by carver9
On a planet with extreme gravity.

That's the lowest of lowest showings and Kid Goku would stomp Thor by the way. Hell, Jackie Chun could. Was it? I can't remember. I just know that DBZ characters have always had weird strength standards sometimes.

Originally posted by carver9
On a planet with extreme gravity.

That's the lowest of lowest showings and Kid Goku would stomp Thor by the way. Hell, Jackie Chun could.

The 'extreme gravity' is already accounted for.

It was consistent because vegeta in the android saga was at first struggling with 300x gravity, which dr brief's said would make his body feel like 18 tons.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The 'extreme gravity' is already accounted for.

It was consistent because vegeta in the android saga was at first struggling with 300x gravity, which dr brief's said would make his body feel like 18 tons. Yeah goku I think reached 100 times earth's gravity during the Frieza arc but struggled for a while with that.

Originally posted by Newjak
Didn't Goku after Cell have to turn Super Saiyan once just to handle 40 tons of weight for training?

I mentioned this before, but lifting strength in DB never matches striking strength for whatever reason. A character who can effortlessly shatter mountains with a punch, for example, isn't going to struggle lifting 40 tons.

I've never really understood *why* Toriyama portrays strength in DB the way he does... But he's honestly pretty phucking stupid, so that's probably the reason. /shrug

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The 'extreme gravity' is already accounted for.

It was consistent because vegeta in the android saga was at first struggling with 300x gravity, which dr brief's said would make his body feel like 18 tons.

They also said that the extreme gravity really didn't have much to due with the outer layer of power, it had more to do with what it did internally. Then you also have to factor in, this same type of training, gravity intensity impacted even high Heralds in both Marvel and DC when put in the same situation.

Originally posted by Galan007
I mentioned this before, but lifting strength in DB never matches striking strength for whatever reason. A character who can effortlessly shatter mountains with a punch, for example, isn't going to struggle lifting 40 tons.

I've never really understood *why* Toriyama portrays strength in DB the way he does... But he's honestly pretty phucking stupid, so that's probably the reason. /shrug I've heard that people try to account for this by saying it's not their physical strength but just raw energy. Which is also why people think Goku could get taken out by a base laser gun during the Golden Frieza arc since he was caught undefended by his energy powers.

Also Toriyama probably just doesn't care. I mean he has destroyed the moon how many times with zero consequences to Earth 😜

Also I forget but didn't they die from Golden Frieza blowing up the Earth and Whis had to rewind time to save them?

Which was weird given it was shown both Goku and Vegeta were well above Frieza at that point. At least enough Vegeta could treat him as a nuisance.

Originally posted by carver9
They also said that the extreme gravity really didn't have much to due with the outer layer of power, it had more to do with what it did internally. Then you also have to factor in, this same type of training, gravity intensity impacted even high Heralds in both Marvel and DC when put in the same situation.

You tried to bring up this 'internal' affect theory years ago and I debunked it then too.

If the gravity thing only hurts them because it affects their internal organs more than their skeleton and muscles then their internal organs should burst every time they punch each other.

It's a nonsense theory.

DB series as a whole has excellent energy projection, excellent speed, good to excellent striking feats and terrible lifting feats.

Take the good with the bad.

Originally posted by Newjak
I've heard that people try to account for this by saying it's not their physical strength but just raw energy. Which is also why people think Goku could get taken out by a base laser gun during the Golden Frieza arc since he was caught undefended by his energy powers. It's their energy amping their physical abilities.

Same as when a DB character punches their opponent so hard that they slam into, and shatter, a mountain. A character with cl.40 strength isn't doing something like that.

But Toriyama obviously doesn't think about things like that. It is what it is.

Originally posted by Newjak
Also I forget but didn't they die from Golden Frieza blowing up the Earth and Whis had to rewind time to save them?

Which was weird given it was shown both Goku and Vegeta were well above Frieza at that point. At least enough Vegeta could treat him as a nuisance. It wasn't the blast itself that would've killed them. It was their inability to survive in space after the planet was destroyed.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's their energy amping their physical abilities.

Same as when a DB character punches their opponent so hard that they slam into, and shatter, a mountain. A character with cl.40 strength isn't doing something like that.

But Toriyama obviously doesn't think about things like that. It is what it is.

It wasn't the blast itself that would've killed them. It was their inability to survive in space. Was that mentioned? I could have forgotten that because I thought This said they died in the blast.

Edit: Just watched the scene again. They mention that Frieza most likely survived because his species can survive in space. So you could derive from that statement that Vegeta could have survived but died in space. Weird though because they weren't that far from Whis and the others. You would think Vegeta could have just flown over to the giant purple dome real fast ;p

Of course Toriyama doesn't really like Vegeta lol

Toriyama only likes two characters: Goku and Krillin.

Originally posted by Galan007
Toriyama only likes two characters: Goku and Krillin. He likes Krillin enough to let him get laid but not enough to be useful most of the time lol.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
if piccolo is BA level, then nappa would pretty much have to be coked out ultraman level by default. Probably the closest comparison you'll get, tbh.

After all, Nappa was obviously capable of one-shotting Piccolo the entire time.

Didn't SSJ Vegeta Toyotarō's retarded manga, fail to lift Magetta, who weighed 1,000 tons.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Didn't SSJ Vegeta Toyotarō's retarded manga, fail to lift Magetta, who weighed 1,000 tons.

They have some bad lifting showings but their striking fts are high end. Same fight, Vegeta punched Megetta and shook the entire dragonball that was the size of a planet.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Didn't SSJ Vegeta Toyotarō's retarded manga, fail to lift Magetta, who weighed 1,000 tons. Tbf, Beerus said that Magetta weighed "over" 1,000 tons. So Magetta could have weighed a billion tons, and Beerus' statement wouldn't technically be wrong(a billion is indeed "over" a thousand.) vin


But in all seriousness, it goes back to what I was saying earlier: lifting strength in DB has never matched striking strength for some strange reason.

Thanks for allowing this because there are actually a lot of questions I've been wanting to ask.

But for starters, is feat sharing allowed for DBZ characters. So like if one character can destroy a planet or survive a planet destroying attack (like Saiyan arc Vegeta for instance), can we assume that characters with a higher power level (like Dodoria) could do the same and more?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Ok I'll start.

Who is the weakest person who can dodge saiyans saga piccolo's special beam cannon from point blank range?

It went to the moon in roughly a couple of seconds which makes it around lightspeed or at least highly relativistic.

(And yes the dragon ball moon is confirmed to be just as far away as the actual moon) Piccolo's moon-buster took about 4 seconds, so it moved at about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of light. I feel like Superman and Wonder Woman can dodge it point blank, and Thor would likely block it with his hammer

Originally posted by Mendax
Thanks for allowing this because there are actually a lot of questions I've been wanting to ask.

But for starters, is feat sharing allowed for DBZ characters. So like if one character can destroy a planet or survive a planet destroying attack (like Saiyan arc Vegeta for instance), can we assume that characters with a higher power level (like Dodoria) could do the same and more? That's the way it looks like things are being treated so far.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf, Beerus said that Magetta weighed "over" 1,000 tons. So Magetta could have weighed a billion tons, and Beerus' statement wouldn't technically be wrong(a billion is indeed "over" a thousand.) vin


But in all seriousness, it goes back to what I was saying earlier: lifting strength in DB has never matched striking strength for some strange reason. Well it probably has to deal with the idea that nobody watches Dragon Ball to see Goku lift something.

They watch to see people fight and get blowned up

EDIT: Also intense yelling to power up lol

Originally posted by Galan007
Toriyama only likes three characters: Broly, Goku and Krillin.

Fixed

Originally posted by Mendax
But for starters, is feat sharing allowed for DBZ characters. So like if one character can destroy a planet or survive a planet destroying attack (like Saiyan arc Vegeta for instance), can we assume that characters with a higher power level (like Dodoria) could do the same and more? Assuming the stronger character has the means to destroy a planet(in the form of a powerful ki blast), then yes, that's typically how it works. DB revolves around logical power-scaling.

But like, if you gave Yajirobe a PL of 1,000,000 and then told him to go destroy the earth, he still couldn't do it because the guy has never used a ki blast in his entire history.

Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the stronger character has the means to destroy a planet(in the form of a powerful ki blast), then yes, that's typically how it works. DB revolves around logical power-scaling.

But like, if you gave Yajirobe a PL of 1,000,000 and then told him to go destroy the earth, he still couldn't do it because the guy has never used a ki blast in his entire history.

Where would that power level go to then? If he is at a million but can't destroy a planet, what happens to the power?

Originally posted by carver9
Where would that power level go to then? If he is at a million but can't destroy a planet, what happens to the power? I think what Galan is saying is that without the ability to actually use the ki power you can be at huge power levels and not be able to do anything with it.

Think of it like a million gallon tank of water. It's not going to put out a huge fire by itself you have to have a hose to be able to use the water. Without a way to release the ki it's just there doing nothing.

At least that's what I took out of it. If I am wrong I'm sure Galan will correct me.

Originally posted by carver9
Where would that power level go to then? If he is at a million but can't destroy a planet, what happens to the power? Physical applications, most likely.

So I would still assume, for example, that a theoretical "PL=1,000,000" Yajirobe would be able to no-sell 1st form Freeza's planet-buster and stomp him in a fight. It's just that Yaj himself can't project ki blasts...So even though he has enough power at his disposal *to* one-shot planets, he lacks the ability to actually do so.

Don't care about other pages but on the speed angle of the first page, if you make a jump to the low millions you have Final Form Frieza firing a blast that a Piccolo who was above a million couldn't even see even though he could react to other lesser attacks from a less powerful Frieza. Vegeta who could track it then couldn't track Frieza's physical movements very well at all. SS Goku was then wildly above everything 50 percent Frieza could do.

Basically everything increases with power and it leads to some interesting conclusions.

That being said, I always had the herald tier with average feats (not counting extreme highs) as somewhere around Frieza level. Casual-ish planet destroying being the tie to 1st form Frieza with the 10x gravity planet. Most high feats countered by "SCALING" and the like. And then you just move up sagas to account for outliers, but it would work for the average levels. This also ignores the street level and meta stuff since you might as well just move down sagas for that and it creates a mess where you can simultaneously argue 1st Form Frieza is a good fight under one light but also Nappa stomps.

I know Vegeta had to power to destroy Earth too, but I'm being pretty fair and intentioned with it.

Once it gets to Buu saga, the scaling should be so retarded that it's kind of pointless for me to even think about. It pretty much becomes the ideal of the comic character only written under one writer as his actual real level to fight these characters. That same guy who fought Thing was actually universal, no amps haha.

Not too far removed from normal debating actually, but it seems so much more focused to me on highs when it's Dragon Ball. Meh.

As an aside for the striking vs weight angle, consider that a weaker version of katchin was durable enough to destroy the Z-Sword without a scratch. The characters are now strong enough to casually destroy upgraded katchin which is much thicker with normal strikes. Unless something completely unbreakable and really heavy is thrown on them, they're probably punching through it. Hell Frieza casually boots away Vegeta's attack that had enough power to destroy Namek. Might not be able to lift everything, but they can sure punch the shit out of it. I mean Thor guaranteed has better lifting feats than Goku, and Goku would make him look like a toddler fighting Jeffrey Dahmer in a physical battle.

Originally posted by carver9
On a planet with extreme gravity.

That's the lowest of lowest showings and Kid Goku would stomp Thor by the way. Hell, Jackie Chun could. 40 tons on that planet is like 10 tons on earth?
Meaning an object on earth weighs 10 tons but on that planet with higher gravity would weight 40 tons.

Originally posted by Galan007
But like, if you gave Yajirobe a PL of 1,000,000 and then told him to go destroy the earth, he still couldn't do it because the guy has never used a ki blast in his entire history.

What if he chose to EAT the Earth...?

Originally posted by Newjak
I think what Galan is saying is that without the ability to actually use the ki power you can be at huge power levels and not be able to do anything with it.

Think of it like a million gallon tank of water. It's not going to put out a huge fire by itself you have to have a hose to be able to use the water. Without a way to release the ki it's just there doing nothing.

At least that's what I took out of it. If I am wrong I'm sure Galan will correct me.

Gotcha.

Originally posted by Galan007
Physical applications, most likely.

So I would still assume, for example, that a theoretical "PL=1,000,000" Yajirobe would be able to no-sell 1st form Freeza's planet-buster and stomp him in a fight. It's just that Yaj himself can't project ki blasts...So even though he has enough power at his disposal *to* one-shot planets, he lacks the ability to actually do so.

So he would be a physical beast. This makes sense.

Do yall even want to get into the nonsense that is dragon ball heroes??

Shit cray

Yeah...

the power scaling there is a bit crazy.

Let's start with base cumber matching KK Vegito:

Then Golden Ape Cumber one-piecing him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baW-x1pWawU

Dragonball heroes is terrible.

Originally posted by Galan007
Assuming the stronger character has the means to destroy a planet(in the form of a powerful ki blast), then yes, that's typically how it works. DB revolves around logical power-scaling.

But like, if you gave Yajirobe a PL of 1,000,000 and then told him to go destroy the earth, he still couldn't do it because the guy has never used a ki blast in his entire history.



Not so logical.


It's honestly as nonsensical as The Seven Deadly Sins. That's the series where Escanor is Demon King level, yet the angel who gave him his powers is not. Inexplicably.

In Z, this is most obvious by the fact the "moves so fast I can't see them" stops being a thing, until it is. Roshie being one obvious example, dodging a massively suppressex Jiren who was still SSJ Blue Plus level, and logically should have been MUCH faster then Roshie.

Like Abridged Vegeta said, power levels are bullshit.

Jiren was holding back tremendously and Roshi have been in training for years. This was said on panel. His training showed during that instance. What else do you have?

Power levels were only bullshit until Super.

I think we can do a fairly good job of keeping everyone in order during Z.

Originally posted by carver9
Jiren was holding back tremendously and Roshi have been in training for years. This was said on panel. His training showed during that instance. What else do you have?


I already said Jiren was holding back.


Jiren also took down Super Saiyan Blue Goku, before Roshie dodged his punches.

This means Roshie did something against Jiren >>> SSJ Blue Goku.

Originally posted by cdtm
I already said Jiren was holding back.


Jiren also took down Super Saiyan Blue Goku, before Roshie dodged his punches.

This means Roshie did something against Jiren >>> SSJ Blue Goku.

To be fair, if Jiren killed him, he'd be eliminated. So he had to suppress himself even farther without a doubt.

Originally posted by cdtm
I already said Jiren was holding back.


Jiren also took down Super Saiyan Blue Goku, before Roshie dodged his punches.

This means Roshie did something against Jiren >>> SSJ Blue Goku.

So Jiren knowing Roshi is a trillion times weaker than him should have went all out and killed Roshi and lost the tournament? Good thinking cdtm.

Originally posted by Damborgson
To be fair, if Jiren killed him, he'd be eliminated. So he had to suppress himself even farther without a doubt.


Sure, but that never stopped him from crushing everyone else.


Kind of a convenient stretch of logic to just assume he suppressed himself so much, he had a PL of 400.


It also makes Master Roshie's feat a non feat. Nothing impressive at all about dodging him then.


But judging by Whis and Beerus's reactions, he really was meant to dodge punches from a being that crushed Goku, and not just someone who scalded it back a bit too far.

Originally posted by carver9
So Jiren knowing Roshi is a trillion times weaker than him should have went all out and killed Roshi and lost the tournament? Good thinking cdtm.


And you can prove Jiren reduced his powers for Roshie?

If you can't, this is your opinion. And unsupported.

Originally posted by cdtm
Sure, but that never stopped him from crushing everyone else.


Kind of a convenient stretch of logic to just assume he suppressed himself so much, he had a PL of 400.


It also makes Master Roshie's feat a non feat. Nothing impressive at all about dodging him then.


But judging by Whis and Beerus's reactions, he really was meant to dodge punches from a being that crushed Goku, and not just someone who scalded it back a bit too far.

Master Roshi was far more than 400, lol. Stop trolling cdtm.

aeTihlHNF5g

Originally posted by cdtm
And you can prove Jiren reduced his powers for Roshie?

If you can't, this is your opinion. And unsupported.

He reduced his power for everyone.

https://i.gifer.com/75Mh.gif

Yes, it is correct. Only DBZ fanboys believe otherwise.

https://tinyurl.com/y3oey6lb

Still unemployed, my friend?

Oh and Karate Kid is better at martial arts than anyone on DBZ.

Your version of KK doesn't exist.

And since u love to say "Herpity derpity I'm intelligent Batman beat him" then Batman>>>Goku.

This is not GDF or MF.

You will get banned.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
This is not GDF or MF.

You will get banned.

Lol kiddo: what would I get banned for?

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol kiddo: what would I get banned for?

Being Surtur is enough.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Being Surtur is enough.

So you got nothing. Just like Goku would against the most powerful versions of Superman.

Every single DBZ character is practically a nobody compared to superman anyways

Originally posted by Surtur
I'll admit I was trying to be kind to DBZ fanboys. Yeah good idea, some of the new converts will revert back soon.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Yeah good idea, some of the new converts will revert back soon.

How?

Phil stated that like half a decade ago and he still hasn't changed his mind.

Abhi literally just got hooked on DB and he hasn't even seen the episodes past the Cell Saga yet.

Oh I loved the Cell Saga, I remember fondly on CBR DBZ fanboys incorrectly saying Cell could nuke a solar system. Good times!

What is incorrect about it?

Manga, anime and official bios all agree on it.

I do not recall Cell ever taking out a solar system in one shot, can you post that feat bro?

Do not respond with "characters said" btw. Not enough.

I gotta say I laughed at "anime bios agree".

Lol. Well shit, my bad then. The anime bios agree. I retract my request for proof, we got the bios.

Character statements are equal to narrator statements in Dragon Ball, as said by Toriyama himself.

Then you have the official bio confirming his power to do so.

Yeah man, the bios and the statements and stuff.

DBZ fanboys are the best. Endless entertainment.

Roshi at PL 139 destroyed the moon with a single blast.

He was an ant to King Piccolo, who was an ant to Piccolo Jr., who was an ant to Vegeta, who was an ant to Frieza, who was an ant to noob Super Saiyans (level one, grade one)... and so on, and so on.

Oh I love it when they resort to busting out power levels.

Adorable.