Darkest Knight & Perpetua vs PR Beyonder & Molecule Man

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind
snyder explained in this video perpetua was not at full power for her low showing, context matters.

you should check out this interviewer youtube channel too, you would love it

37 min mark

NGOEO_R1uRY&feature=emb_title
I know of the Imaginary Axis and I'm not a fan. What he does is what a lot of battleboard wankers do and put an extreme emphasis on statements over feats, while simultaneously cherry-picking which statements to use and which to ignore while spinning his narrative to turn a given cosmology into something more than it actually is.

The interview is an example of this as well because it's clear that he's attempting to push for a concession for certain ideas that Snyder clearly hasn't thought about.

And the faux mathematics of "infinite choices" is a clear case of hyperbole. Because you can't generate infinity from finite elements (that's why the axiom of infinity is an axiom and not a theory), to clarify: you have a finite number of entities capable of making choices in the 52 universes, and they have a finite amount of choices every second over a finite amount of time. While this will generate a large number this number will have the distinct property of being finite. And it's fairly easy to draw a hard-cap on that number because there are studies that examine probability permutations (which are a lot more multiplex than choice, significantly so to more than compensate that the Dark Multiverse spawns from the 52 universes as opposed to one). If you're interested here's an article addressing it.

I don't mind people using the term infinity as hyperbole. As long as it's clearly defined then it can always be addressed. The issue is when Tyler brings up greater transfinite values, which is not at all applicable.

There's also the issue with dimensions that was pure cringe to watch, but I'll save that critique for a rainy day.

That said, if Snyder said that Preptua was weakened then that's a fair argument, but I'm not going to change sides until she actually gets feats that are comparable to the Beyonder's. Because not only did the Beyonder destroy the Multiverse in his fight against the Molecule Man, which was actually infinite. When it comes to dimensions and whatnot, he wasn't a six-dimensional being, he was an infinite-dimensional being.

https://i.imgur.com/sIwGry3.png

I forget exactly where this panel is from, but it's from one of the earlier Secret Wars II issues, I think it's #2 but don't quote me on that.

BrolyBlack

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Regular BWL wins lol. Spite.

kB is a bit salty about it

krisblaze

Seriously though, Mr.Mind meant pre retcon, didn't he?

DK and Perpetua don't have the feats to beat pre retcon MM and Beyonder.

Astner

Originally posted by krisblaze
Seriously though, Mr.Mind meant pre retcon, didn't he?
Considering he actually think Perpetua would win it's reasonable to assume that he did.

Originally posted by krisblaze
DK and Perpetua don't have the feats to beat pre retcon MM and Beyonder.
Not only don't they have it it's not even close. Maybe if you pulled out World's Funnest and tried to scale that to inflate Dr. Manhattan's power and Perpetua's power then you'd arrive at the conclusion that they'd win.

Because let's be honest, Mr. Mxyzptlk feat in World's Funnest still has the greatest feat in either Marvel or DC. The issue is that it's questionable whether or not World's Funnest is actually canon (regardless of Hyper-time) and if it is we'd have to assume that either he killed Perpetua at that point or that his explanation of the state of affairs after he supposedly destroyed everything except for Bat-mite and Jay's helm. And that's when the DC multiverse was truly infinite.

krisblaze

I've always been suspicious of World's Funnest, mainly because the showings there absoltely balloon every other cosmic feat in DC.

Astner

Originally posted by krisblaze
I've always been suspicious of World's Funnest, mainly because the showings there absoltely balloon every other cosmic feat in DC.
Even back in the day it was questioned, because the implication was that he killed the Presence and various other entities higher up the cosmic ladder than himself.

I don't mind using World's Funnest, but the idea that it can be used inflate the power of characters that don't have feats anywhere close to what Mr. Mxyzptlk displayed has always seemed dishonest.

MrMind

Originally posted by Astner
Considering he actually think Perpetua would win it's reasonable to assume that he did.

Not only don't they have it it's not even close. Maybe if you pulled out World's Funnest and tried to scale that to inflate Dr. Manhattan's power and Perpetua's power then you'd arrive at the conclusion that they'd win.

Because let's be honest, Mr. Mxyzptlk feat in World's Funnest still has the greatest feat in either Marvel or DC. The issue is that it's questionable whether or not World's Funnest is actually canon (regardless of Hyper-time) and if it is we'd have to assume that either he killed Perpetua at that point or that his explanation of the state of affairs after he supposedly destroyed everything except for Bat-mite and Jay's helm. And that's when the DC multiverse was truly infinite. Originally posted by krisblaze
I've always been suspicious of World's Funnest, mainly because the showings there absoltely balloon every other cosmic feat in DC.

there is only one mxy across dc medium, so the word 'canon' doesn't affect mxy, i can't believe galan still didn't convince you guys after all these years
https://i.ibb.co/ngdsmBB/5787257-0733378693-57863.jpg

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by krisblaze
Seriously though, Mr.Mind meant pre retcon, didn't he?

Of course he did.

"PR" is always used for that, same with "PC" for Pre-Crisis, but I digress.

If one wanted to use post-retcon versions, there would be no need to specify, since we're always meant to use the current incarnations unless specified otherwise by the threadstarter.

Plus... there's this post:

Originally posted by MrMind
it's still pre retcon, I just messed up my scans order so I asked galan to delete it

DeadpoolXXX

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Is there some sort of joke I'm missing or is he just spelling it wrong everytime unironically? it reminds me of when he posted pics of himself in those skin tight purple pants, and you could see his "erecton".

the filthy bugger.

xJLxKing

Team 2

Team 1 need something a bit more than statements

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
It wasn't. It was a gross misrepresentation physics seemingly based off a pop science article or a documentary. It's a misrepresentation of the Endless as well since they came into existence at the beginning of the universe. Hence why Destiny is the oldest of them, Death the second oldest, and so on. So they're not eternal concepts like Tyler argued.

The 4th dimension was the only thing that caught my attention too, because he forgot what he had written and thought that it was the spiritual realm. When he had written it to be time in Justice League #19.

https://i.imgur.com/5HsyNs3.png

He fumbles to explain the spatial dimensions confusing zero dimensional space (a dot) and one dimensional space (a line) for one dimensional space (a line) and two dimensional space (a plane), there's also the problem with describing three-dimensional space (volume) as "material stuff" but it's a bit more forgiving, and the fourth dimension is as per the metric tensor time.

That doesn't look particularly infinite to me. Even then it's not clarified that it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse.

I'm not going to take vague references over the 52 numbered universes in the multiverse unless there's a specific explanation that ties it together. The main reason for this is because the 52 universes are variations of each other.

In the Orrey of Worlds you have the 52 universes, numbered 0 to 51 and beyond that you have the spheres of the gods, the Speedforce, limbo, and eventually the Source Wall. That's the official explanation we've been given. It's not 100% coherent, but that's comics in general. However, we're still left with Morrison's map that specifically outlines 52 universes.

The Dark Multiverse is tied to the 52 universes. But since it's based off choice and happenstance (not to mention that they're unstable and collapse as frequently as they form) it's also finite.

With the Empty Hand arc we were introduced to different multiverses, but these supposedly existed beyond the Source Wall, i.e. beyond the DC multiverse, and while this may actually be infinite Perpetua didn't create that.

As far as we know this isn't of any significance. It doesn't say anything specific about her or her abilities.

The issue with these explanations is that they rely on Hyper-time (i.e. everything is canon is some way or form) and particular interpretations of vague statements to construct a cosmology that's very different from the one explored in the comics.

And if you follow these models the comics will make even less sense.

Again, there's very little substance here.

Yes, it takes an infinite number of two dimensional planes (x, y, dz) to construct a three dimensional volume (x, y, z). That's what an integral is: an infinite sum of infinitesimal elements.

But even then you end up with a sixth dimensional Perpetua, and an infinite dimensional Beyonder.

I'm not putting too much emphasis on the dimensionality of these characters. I'd still argue that World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk would beat the Pre-retcon Beyonder based on their actual feats despite the fact that he's a five-dimensional imp.
Being infinite dimensional means jackshit in comics. Beyonder's best feat is shaking the multiverse in a fight with Molecule Man and creating a universe (bigger than multiverse) with all his energy.

Not sure why that's so impressive. Even sphere of Gods dwarfs the infinite multiverse and then there's dark multiverse which houses three separate infinite multiverses just now (Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis) and that was created by just World Forger (far below Perpetua).

Astner

It's not only the scale of the feats but the consistency of the portrayals.

Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the rest of the multiverse combined, and that fraction of a million was probably represented by Molecule Man. But if we exclude the possibility of Molecule Man being included in this equation, that's still millions of times more powerful than the multiverse.

https://i.imgur.com/PCBuQLV.png

And keep in mind that Thanos only had to absorb the Abstracts of Multiverse to overthrow the One-Above-All.

So there's a case to be made for that there's no force in Marvel currently that would be able to stand against Pre-retcon Beyonder or Molecule Man.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
It's not only the scale of the feats but the consistency of the portrayals.

Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the rest of the multiverse combined, and that fraction of a million was probably represented by Molecule Man. But if we exclude the possibility of Molecule Man being included in this equation, that's still millions of times more powerful than the multiverse.

https://i.imgur.com/PCBuQLV.png

Big whoop. Even Anti Monitor in COIE was more powerful than entire multiverse by infinite orders at the dawn of time because he actually had power of two multiverses and Perpetua is far above him. Millions of times sounds great but is hardly that great.

Starlin's OAA is shit, he can't even repair a universe if there is disturbance in multiverse system.

Probably. But DC doesn't plays with the same rule.

Astner

Originally posted by abhilegend
Big whoop. Even Anti Monitor in COIE was more powerful than entire multiverse by infinite orders at the dawn of time because he actually had power of two multiverses and Perpetua is far above him. Millions of times sounds great but is hardly that great.
The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Starlin's OAA is shit, he can't even repair a universe if there is disturbance in multiverse system.
But it's the one reliable portrayal we have.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Probably. But DC doesn't plays with the same rule.
I certainly subscribe to the idea that there are characters within the DC canon more powerful than Pre-retcon Beyonder. I already mentioned, World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk. The Presence, Lucifer and Michael would be three more characters that I'd side with over the Beyonder.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

Anti Matter universe was equal to the size of normal positive infinite multiverse and actually grew in the empty space of infinite multiverse once it was destroyed.

https://i.postimg.cc/mP9V1z1y/image.jpg

And Anti Monitor destroyed it and absorbed it casually.
https://i.postimg.cc/SX7rVBrX/image.jpg

It really isn't. Beyonder himself confirmed that Dr Strange could've trapped him in an illusion forever and puma almost killed him with the power of multiverse.

I don't think Beyonder is as powerful as you think. All he has is bunch of statements and shaking the multiverse.

Astner

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anti Matter universe was equal to the size of normal positive infinite multiverse and actually grew in the empty space of infinite multiverse once it was destroyed.

https://i.postimg.cc/mP9V1z1y/image.jpg
There's nothing in that scan that suggests that the Anti-Matter Universe was the size of the multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And Anti Monitor destroyed it and absorbed it casually.
https://i.postimg.cc/SX7rVBrX/image.jpg
With technology.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It really isn't. Beyonder himself confirmed that Dr Strange could've trapped him in an illusion forever and puma almost killed him with the power of multiverse.
Dr. Strange's illusions wasn't a matter of power, and the Beyonder orchestrated the event that made Pumpa powerful enough to kill him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't think Beyonder is as powerful as you think. All he has is bunch of statements and shaking the multiverse.
I repeat, the thing about the Beyonder is that he was consistently powerful. Aside from Molecule Man no one could stand up to him. Not the heroes, not the villains and not even the Abstracts.

MrMind

scans of dc multiverse being infinite here i come, Im only posting a small portion of scans, there's literally no way to argue against it

anyone who still insist on 52 universes, just give up or you'll be eating crows

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330325-3424591709-INRpF.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330326-6551573767-6GKQP.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330327-8045833951-QbMM9.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330328-5574198920-lRdkf.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330329-8855620690-jp1kk.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330330-0913636718-amMUZ.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330331-7955717875-rcOZG.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330332-5126586996-gpcPa.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330396-3575583171-IErWA.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330401-5535185045-latest

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
There's nothing in that scan that suggests that the Anti-Matter Universe was the size of the multiverse.

Of course it does. Monitor was powered by entire positive multiverse and Anti Monitor by the anti matter universe and they still stalemated for a million years.

Originally posted by Galan007
COIE AM was already equal to a multiversal power BEFORE he even began destroying the mainstream multiverse...

Remember, the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, ALL positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe that AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/cLDnHs7m.jpg

Despite the fact that Monitor possessed FULLY multiversal power, Anti-Monitor...at his absolute WEAKEST levels, mind you...was still his EQUAL:
http://i.imgur.com/lj11e3vm.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor..."

With that in mind, remember that for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of ADDITIONAL anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9QSAUcjm.jpg

So when he ultimately absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/ryd0mrkm.jpg

...AM would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 that still remained, lol) ON TOP OF the multiversal power he already wielded -- so power roughly equivalent to TWO multiverses, in other words.

What technology? Anti Monitor destroyed universes by his own power.

What a bunch of excuses.

For one story, sure. Doesn't matter much.

Stoic

The thing that never made much sense to me is the scenario that has one guy measured to be a universal power proving to be tougher, and hit harder than another guy who is measured to be multiversal who struggles with far less than universal obstacles?

MrMind

Originally posted by Astner
The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

But it's the one reliable portrayal we have.

I certainly subscribe to the idea that there are characters within the DC canon more powerful than Pre-retcon Beyonder. I already mentioned, World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk. The Presence, Lucifer and Michael would be three more characters that I'd side with over the Beyonder.

I appreciate you ranking mxy, Lucifer and Michael above beyonder thumb up

DarkSaint85

Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

laughing out loud

MrMind

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

SBP retcon beyonder to post pre retcum beyonder, rectum punch beyonder into a post-op tranny

krisblaze

Originally posted by MrMind
SBP retcon beyonder to post pre retcum beyonder, rectum punch beyonder into a post-op tranny
Uhm, Beyonder walks around like a total chad with his open jacket and mullet.
Prime constantly whines and breaks down in tears.

If anyone's a tranny here then it ain't big B.

MrMind

Space David Hasselhoff needs better fashion

https://i.ibb.co/c2SqcWT/2725490-letter-6.jpg

shirtless emoboy prime attracts more teenage jailbaits type

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/10/100726/2080664-imprisoned.jpeg

krisblaze

Can't believe how badly they've botched Prime's development.

All that potential gone to waste.

MrMind

Originally posted by krisblaze
Can't believe how badly they've botched Prime's development.

All that potential gone to waste.

same could be said about beyonder

But yeah, SBP has been done dirty

first teen titans, now BA and CM beat him

like he can rack up 10 high feats from now on and people would not let the low showings go

prime is one special case where everybody loves to hate him,

8swords

abhilegend

Originally posted by 8swords
AM had power of two multiverses? didnt perpetua just created the 1 multiverse they are all in?
No, she created two multiverses, positive multiverse, dark multiverse and Anti matter universe which was equal to normal multiverse.

MrMind

anti matter universe is equal to positive multiverse in size

but she created one multiverse

dark multiverse, positive infinite multiverse, anti matter universe, higher archetypal realms and etc are all included in the superstructure she created

think of her created a prototype for one insanely massive multiverse

MrMind

Originally posted by Galan007

Yeah, dimensional scaling in Marvel and DC is completely different, so comparing the characters based on that alone doesn't really work.

what astner doesnt realize is dc is infinite dimensional too, the six layers of dimensions are six transcending planes of existence

https://i.imgur.com/Xq1N0fu.jpg

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind
what astner doesnt realize is dc is infinite dimensional too, the six layers of dimensions are six transcending planes of existence
No they're not, Mr. Mxyzptlk specifically describes them in terms relating to spatial and temporal dimensions.

Some arbitrary mention of an otherwise ambiguous term doesn't change that. You'd have to reference something specific from Dark Metal or the events that tie into it in order to contradict the notion.

MrMind

I guess anything that isn't written by snyder doesn't count?

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897160-inf%20d4.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/99phbd2/6897162-inf-di.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/KqqsTnj/6897164-dimen.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/CP0f4M7/6897163-ind-d3.jpg

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
No they're not, Mr. Mxyzptlk specifically describes them in terms relating to spatial and temporal dimensions.

Some arbitrary mention of an otherwise ambiguous term doesn't change that. You'd have to reference something specific from Dark Metal or the events that tie into it in order to contradict the notion.
Eh, what?

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind
I guess anything that isn't written by snyder doesn't count?
Not in regards to how he writes the cosmology, at the very least not when the evidence is contradicted by his own writing.

The error you're making is that you're cherry-picking elements from different stories only to come up with an interpretation that fails to align with any story.

If you're associating Perpetua with infinite dimensions then you've already ****ed up, because not only has this association not been made in the comics, it has actively been contradicted with her being assigned to the 6th dimension.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
Not in regards to how he writes the cosmology, at the very least not when the evidence is contradicted by his own writing.

The error you're making is that you're cherry-picking elements from different stories only to come up with an interpretation that fails to align with any story.

If you're associating Perpetua with infinite dimensions then you've already ****ed up, because not only has this association not been made in the comics, it has actively been contradicted with her being assigned to the 6th dimension.
But 6th dimension is not related to spatial dimensional structure. Multiverse already has infinite dimensions within it, sphere of gods above it and Nil even above which is outside dimensional structure altogether.

Dark Dimension in itself has just created three entire multiverses within it for three different crises.

Astner

This is the explanation Snyder gave us for the fifth (and eventually sixth) dimension. Notice how the first four are supposed to correspond to the space-time continuum, and the last two are extrapolations thereof.

Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/5HsyNs3.png

He fumbles to explain the spatial dimensions confusing zero dimensional space (a dot) and one dimensional space (a line) for one dimensional space (a line) and two dimensional space (a plane), there's also the problem with describing three-dimensional space (volume) as "material stuff" but it's a bit more forgiving, and the fourth dimension is as per the metric tensor time.
There's no room for interpretation here.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
This is the explanation Snyder gave us for the fifth (and eventually sixth) dimension. Notice how the first four are supposed to correspond to the space-time continuum, and the last two are extrapolations thereof.

There's no room for interpretation here.
Snyder is an idiot who can't even keep normal shit like dimension numbers straight.

https://i.postimg.cc/B8XX7YN3/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/MvV4VzS2/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/jDT1hBxW/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zykc2pvx/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/nscwy7Qp/image.jpg

Perpetua created the infinite multiverse before COIE as we see Anti Monitor starting to conspire to destroy multiverse. You're equating current multiversal structure to her creation when it was rebooted by Cosmic Raptor after she was bound.

CatL18

In the first place, Snyder said in his interview that the definition of fifth and sixth dimensions are different from spatial and temporal.

Astner

Originally posted by CatL18
In the first place, Snyder said in his interview that the definition of fifth and sixth dimensions are different from spatial and temporal.
No he didn't. He said that he didn't like his work to be constrictive, and then the recording "conveniently" died when Snyder is about to bring up the first three dimensions and we get Taylor's explanation of what was said.

https://i.imgur.com/XzaFk9F.png

Even if we ignore the fact that Tyler has a history of making shit and being generally disingenuous in his interpretation, this would never hold as acceptable evidence.

And when the recording picks up (again, conveniently) it's starts when Snyder explains the 4th dimension, as the dimension of the gods.

You may interpret "beyond the physical" as being different kinds of dimensions. But he's specifically referring to dimensions four through six, implying that dimensions one through three are physical. And in that sense, four through six is an extrapolation of one through three. Meaning that they are dimensions in the very same sense, even if they have different properties.

But even if we ignore this, official publications―like the comics―takes precedence over what creative directors express in interviews or on social media when there's a contradiction between the work and the creative director's word.

CatL18

Originally posted by Astner
No he didn't. He said that he didn't like his work to be constrictive, and then the recording "conveniently" died when Snyder is about to bring up the first three dimensions and we get Taylor's explanation of what was said.

https://i.imgur.com/XzaFk9F.png

Even if we ignore the fact that Tyler has a history of making shit and being generally disingenuous in his interpretation, this would never hold as acceptable evidence.

And when the recording picks up (again, conveniently) it's starts when Snyder explains the 4th dimension, as the dimension of the gods.

You may interpret "beyond the physical" as being different kinds of dimensions. But he's specifically referring to dimensions four through six, implying that dimensions one through three are physical. And in that sense, four through six is an extrapolation of one through three. Meaning that they are dimensions in the very same sense, even if they have different properties.

But even if we ignore this, official publications―like the comics―takes precedence over what creative directors express in interviews or on social media when there's a contradiction between the work and the creative director's word.
Thank you for proving that we are right.
As I said, dimensions above 4D is nothing about spatial and temporal.
And,No matter how you deny, DC has established that there are infinite number of upper and lower dimensions below Bleed space.
So,in conclusion.
Sixth dimension(unimaginable)>5th dimension(imagination)>4th dimension(platonic)>Bleed space>infinite dimension

Rage.Of.Olympus

Team 2.

The Beyonder was truly infinite on an imaginable scale and the Molecule Man was the only chance the MU stood. Compared to them, Perpetua and Darkest Knight are so...small? petty?

It being such a mediocre story probably doesn't help improve their status.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team 2.

The Beyonder was truly infinite on an imaginable scale and the Molecule Man was the only chance the MU stood. Compared to them, Perpetua and Darkest Knight are so...small? petty?

It being such a mediocre story probably doesn't help improve their status.
laughing out loud

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

As if Secret Wars II is some masterpiece. And no, they don't win here. Grandiose hyperbole aside (Specialty of Jim Shooter), Beyonder has nothing on Perpetua. Her creating an infinite multiverse casually is itself beyond the Beyonder.

?

Please don't reply to my posts if you haven't read the comics in question.

Secret Wars is a superior comic to Snyder's garbage. The fact that you think otherwise is disappointing. I know you're an idiot, but I genuinely thought superior stories superseded comic company preferences.

Also, the Marvel Universe was infinite in scope, and the Beyonder was many times more powerful and more encompassing. Making a fully functioning Multiverse would be nothing to him.

MrMind

Oh it's rage who only reads marvel

Team 1 stomps

abhilegend

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
?

Please don't reply to my posts if you haven't read the comics in question.

I've read more marvel comics than you have. Don't talk back to me son.

Secret Wars I was good, II was hot garbage with no plan to where it is going. At least Snyder has a definitive plan for the story.

So is DC universe. But Perpetua also created sphere of gods and Nil which is infinitely bigger than infinite multiverse.

Scale wise Beyonder is nothing to Perpetua.

Astner

Originally posted by CatL18
Thank you for proving that we are right.
You've got a mouse in your pocket?

Originally posted by CatL18
As I said, dimensions above 4D is nothing about spatial and temporal.
No one is saying that they're spatial.

They're an extension of the spatial dimensions. Only the first three dimensions are spatial. The fourth dimension is time, as explained in the comic, and the 5th and 6th are similarly extensions.

Originally posted by CatL18
And,No matter how you deny,
I don't have to deny anything, all I have to do is post the scene where Mr. Mxyzptlk for the Justice League what the dimensions are.

Originally posted by CatL18
DC has established that there are infinite number of upper and lower dimensions below Bleed space.
No. Not only hasn't it been established, it's been disproven by Snyder's writing.

Originally posted by CatL18
So,in conclusion.
Sixth dimension(unimaginable)>5th dimension(imagination)>4th dimension(platonic)>Bleed space>infinite dimension
Honestly, do you believe this shit? Let's ignore the fact that you're disproved by the scene posted earlier in the thread.

Does it make sense to you that that the eighth, ninth, tenth or infiniteth dimensions are lesser than the fifth and sixth dimension? When the sixth is greater than the fifth?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
You've got a mouse in your pocket?

No one is saying that they're spatial.

They're an extension of the spatial dimensions. Only the first three dimensions are spatial. The fourth dimension is time, as explained in the comic, and the 5th and 6th are similarly extensions.

I don't have to deny anything, all I have to do is post the scene where Mr. Mxyzptlk for the Justice League what the dimensions are.

No. Not only hasn't it been established, it's been disproven by Snyder's writing.

Honestly, do you believe this shit? Let's ignore the fact that you're disproved by the scene posted earlier in the thread.

Does it make sense to you that that the eighth, ninth, tenth or infiniteth dimensions are lesser than the fifth and sixth dimension? When the sixth is greater than the fifth?
Last I checked spatial dimension theory doesn't includes imagination as fifth dimension.

https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/justice-league-24-preview-p5.jpg

MrMind

jesus christ abhi use thumbnails or links

MrMind

Originally posted by MrMind
that's just how dc operates

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11136/111367439/6996306-4445923235-69iIi.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11136/111367439/6996307-scott.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11134/111343371/6829959-fle.jpg

at the same time dc is infinite-d

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11134/111343371/6555544-spectre%20scan.jpg

wildstorm alone which is only part of dc multiverse has 198833 dimensional space

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11134/111343371/6564916-3784180684-plane.png

anything sphere of the gods and above are platonic archetypal realms
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111152821/7072547-8980343214-70475.jpg

https://pm1.narvii.com/6929/a7c410c4718f23c04b320cdd2d0f1f3ad544bfdfr1-428-952v2_uhq.jpg

funny thing, we've seen mxy destroyed dimensions with fractions

https://i.ibb.co/1qWnyRs/6897117-inf-d2.jpg

abhilegend

Originally posted by MrMind
jesus christ abhi use thumbnails or links

Rage.Of.Olympus

Originally posted by abhilegend
I've read more marvel comics than you have. Don't talk back to me son.

Secret Wars I was good, II was hot garbage with no plan to where it is going. At least Snyder has a definitive plan for the story.

So is DC universe. But Perpetua also created sphere of gods and Nil which is infinitely bigger than infinite multiverse.

Scale wise Beyonder is nothing to Perpetua.

Not a chance, you can barely read based on your complete misinterpretation of multiple comics.

DC has 52 Universes. Snyder has made recent additions such as the Dark Multiverse, but the MU proper is larger than the main DC. At this point, it doesn't matter though, infinite is infinite. By definition, you cannot differentiate between the two.

I give PR Beyonder the advantage because Team 1 has yet to show anything as impressive in terms of power and was consistently beyond the Marvel Cosmological structure from Eternity to the LT. I'm sure you disagree.

MrMind

"dc has 52 universes"

how outdated is this lowballing, get some new materials

Originally posted by MrMind
scans of dc multiverse being infinite here i come, Im only posting a small portion of scans, there's literally no way to argue against it

anyone who still insist on 52 universes, just give up or you'll be eating crows

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330325-3424591709-INRpF.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330326-6551573767-6GKQP.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330327-8045833951-QbMM9.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330328-5574198920-lRdkf.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330329-8855620690-jp1kk.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330330-0913636718-amMUZ.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330331-7955717875-rcOZG.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330332-5126586996-gpcPa.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330396-3575583171-IErWA.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330401-5535185045-latest

MrMind

not only that, dc has INFINITE MULTIVERSES

https://i.ibb.co/nmn082V/main-qimg-a3ac8db36f2c404246795fae9f9c2bb7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/c6s38Rp/Perpetua-dc.jpg

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind

1. I'm not sure where that SMS conversation is from, or who's participating. But it doesn't matter, because the comics explicitly extrapolates the fifth and sixth dimension from the four of space and time.

https://i.imgur.com/5HsyNs3.png

Like I've said, there's no room for debate on this unless you have recently published works link the Dark Metal series.

2. You're wrong. This scene follows immediately from the scene I posted, where the four dimensions are explained to be space and time. He's not talking about the gods or the Monitor Sphere. Here's the full scene.

https://i.imgur.com/nMUbxlrm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/et6APXLm.jpg

3. This isn't even from the New 52.

4. Wildstorm was never canon to the DC Universe. You have cameos, because DC bought Wildstorm. But it's still a separate canon.

5. It doesn't matter whether they're "Platonic or archtypical" it still exists within the four dimensions of time and space as Mr. Mxyztplk explained above.

6. Yes, but that's from World's funnest which was never part of the New 52, and was arguable never in continuity.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not a chance, you can barely read based on your complete misinterpretation of multiple comics.

laughing out loud

You are delusional.

Haha, shows how much you know about math. 1+2+3+4...... is infinite along with 1+2+4+8+16..... but the second string is bigger than the first one.

Also no, marvel universe wasn't bigger than the DC one when DC had only one universe (DC vs Marvel, JLA/Avengers). Now? There is no chance.

Eternity is Lords of Order level in DC. LT is Spectre level. Both are unimpressive compared to Perpetua.

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind
"dc has 52 universes"

how outdated is this lowballing, get some new materials
All of your evidence falls under one of three categories. It predates the New 52, it's not part of DC canon, or its really vague.

Put that in contrast to every time we've characters talk about the 52 universes, the guides explaining the 52 universes, the Multiverse Map literally enumerating the 52 universes popping up in the comics.

What do you think weighs heavier?

MrMind

too many things wrong with your post, it's actually not even worth a response

but here it goes wasting my time

new52 is local multiverse out of infinite multiverses, just like pre-crisis

just like post crisis/rebirth, if you read doomsday clock you would know

if you read multiversity you would know, but since you don't read dc comics, what's the point of arguing.

Convergence was the first extremely direct confirmation that a previous iteration of the multiverse had been saved following its reboot,

but the Metaverse has expanded that concept.

Each reboot that changes the Metaverse and results in a new multiverse does NOT remove the previous iteration from existence.

They all exist together, and always have. As such, destroying or threatening a "multiverse" is heavily dependent on the context and era of the story,

and whether or not the entire Orrery itself (discussed further below) was threatened.

Convergence brought back the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

Every multiverse is preserved in the wider DC Multiverse

The New 52 multiverse, for example, is a "local multiverse" of 52 universes

https://i.ibb.co/j83VVrs/Convergence-Pre-Crisis-Multiverse.png
https://i.ibb.co/99Cs1g6/Metaverse-Multiverses.png
https://i.ibb.co/nm6kMzQ/Local-Multiverse.png

THESE ARE CANON FACTS, STOP SPEWING YOUR FAN FICTION

since post crisis is still in dc larger multiverses,

due to canon facts and fukin hypertime

wildstorm is earth 50, have you even read 52 and captain atom armageddon

they literally shars the same bleed with dc multiverse if you read anything with authority or written by morrison at all

I'm not even gonna bother with WF being canon cause it's pointless

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
1. I'm not sure where that SMS conversation is from, or who's participating. But it doesn't matter, because the comics explicitly extrapolates the fifth and sixth dimension from the four of space and time.

https://i.imgur.com/5HsyNs3.png

Since when is imagination a separate dimension in spatial dimension theory?

https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/justice-league-24-preview-p5.jpg

Or you have misinterpreted the issue.

Because sphere of Gods is above normal/infinite multiverse.

Wut? Wildstorm is canon to DC since JLA/Wildstorm. Majestic even appeared in Superman, Captain Atom appeared in Wildstorm, Superman and Eradicator appeared in Majestic etc.

Uh no, Nil is beyond the multiverse altogether.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope, The Unexpected shows Mandrakk falling into overvoid from Nil.

https://i.postimg.cc/Sn7Gpmpx/RCO003.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/hfmrp9yx/RCO014.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zy1kMV6Q/RCO015-w.jpg

And Nil is outside the multiverse. And when Mandrakk fell from overvoid, he went to Dark Multiverse which is also out of the multiverse.

There you go. Its after Metal too.

Yes, it is. Crisis on Infinite Earths Deluxe Edition Vol 3 collected World's Funnest as tie in.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_and_Batman:_World%27s_Funnest

MrMind

wildstorm and dc literally shares the same bleed with dc multiverse if you read anything with authority

here's Ion in bleed

https://i.ibb.co/3zDFq8j/Ion-024.jpg

here's authority in bleed
https://i.ibb.co/C7BQhxJ/Carrier.jpg

me and abhi are not here to educate you guys on dc cosmology, do so yourself

PS: is it so hard for you guys to stop stretching the fukin page,

like seriously we are having a serious discussion here

Astner

Originally posted by abhilegend
Since when is imagination a separate dimension in spatial dimension theory?
No one is claiming that the 5th dimension is a spatial dimension. Stop straw-manning.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Or you have misinterpreted the issue.
No. It's as straight-forward as it gets.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because sphere of Gods is above normal/infinite multiverse.
Still four dimensional like the rest of the Multiverse according to Mr. Mxyzptlk.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wut? Wildstorm is canon to DC since JLA/Wildstorm. Majestic even appeared in Superman, Captain Atom appeared in Wildstorm, Superman and Eradicator appeared in Majestic etc.
Those are cross-over events. There's no Wildstorm Universe, in the New 52. It's its own thing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh no, Nil is beyond the multiverse altogether.
This has nothing to do with what you replied to.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it is.
No. Even the writer conceded to that it never was in continuity.

Not to mention that it wouldn't make sense for it to be canon, because Mr. Mxyzptlk destroyed everything and everyone save for Bat-Mite and Garrick's helmet. That would include Perpetua and the Prensce if they shared the same canon.

MrMind

Originally posted by Astner
All of your evidence falls under one of three categories. It predates the New 52, it's not part of DC canon, or its really vague.

Put that in contrast to every time we've characters talk about the 52 universes, the guides explaining the 52 universes, the Multiverse Map literally enumerating the 52 universes popping up in the comics.

What do you think weighs heavier?

this is only a small portion of scans infinite universes and multiverses being mentioned, post flashpoint and onward

it's straight up frustrating at this point

https://i.ibb.co/pjgYRtW/DCInfinite-Universes2.png
https://i.ibb.co/nk4tPsp/7330325-3424591709-INRp-F.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/dJp2GPh/7330326-6551573767-6-GKQP.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/gSGMTVz/7330327-8045833951-Qb-MM9.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/7SY4M4D/7330328-5574198920-l-Rdkf.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DYrdcGh/7330329-8855620690-jp1kk.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rw6NkZv/7330330-0913636718-am-MUZ.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/x6Yb9W8/7330331-7955717875-rc-OZG.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/DWTCK8T/7330333-4088393932-68971.jpg

Astner

Originally posted by MrMind
wildstorm and dc literally shares the same bleed with dc multiverse if you read anything with authority
DC has references to Marvel and Dragon Ball, that doesn't mean that Goku is part of the DC Universe.

Does the Wildstorm Multiverse have its own Bleed? Maybe, but it's not the same as the one as in the New 52. We know this for a fact because out of the 52 universes in the New 52 not a single one is associated with Wildstorm.

That said, you are also missing an important element. Comics are inconsistent. Off-issues don't matter as much as events. Currently Dark Metal is the event that's defining DC's cosmology, and anything that contradicts it is wrong. And that's why I'm telling you not to cherry-pick.

deft

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
No one is claiming that the 5th dimension is a spatial dimension. Stop straw-manning.

You mean you don't even remember your very first argument here?

Originally posted by Astner
Because not only did the Beyonder destroy the Multiverse in his fight against the Molecule Man, which was actually infinite. When it comes to dimensions and whatnot, he wasn't a six-dimensional being, he was an infinite-dimensional being.

https://i.imgur.com/sIwGry3.png

I forget exactly where this panel is from, but it's from one of the earlier Secret Wars II issues, I think it's #2 but don't quote me on that.

You claimed that Beyonder isn't a sixth dimensional being which means you are assigning six dimension to Perpetua and thus Beyonder is more powerful due to being with infinite dimensions.

It really isn't.

Multiverse is four dimensional. Sphere of Gods is not as it is above the multiverse altogether.

You are aware that there was an event called Convergence where Wildstorm characters appeared, right? You are not even aware of basic details of the cosmology.

And no, those are not crossovers. Majestic was main star of Superman books for a month.

Why not?

Writer's intentions are overruled by company edicts.

DC cosmology is messed up. That does not mean we start calling everything that does not makes sense as non canon.

Astner

Originally posted by deft
The 52 universes are called the local multiverse:

https://img.fireden.net/co/image/1519/78/1519783726095.jpg

The multiverse indeed is infinite.
Yes, and it's also called the New 52.

If you go by Morrison's model, the New 52 was DC. There were other multiverses out there (like the one that was destroyed by the Empty Hand) but these were, according to Morrison, "other stories" and not DC stories with Superman and whatnot.

Astner

Originally posted by abhilegend
You claimed that Beyonder isn't a sixth dimensional being which means you are assigning six dimension to Perpetua and thus Beyonder is more powerful due to being with infinite dimensions.
Yes. But it doesn't matter whether the dimensions are spatial, temporal, imaginary, etc. if we simply want to compare the numbers we have the following:

Superman is a four-dimensional being (space-time).

Mr. Mxyzptlk is a five dimensional being (space-time-imagintion).

Perpetua is a six dimensional being (space-time-imagination-unimagined).

.
.
.

Beyonder is an infinite dimensional being.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It really isn't.
Well, for me it is really simple.

But I also tend to deal with a lot more difficult topics, so that might have something to do with it.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
Yes. But it doesn't matter whether the dimensions are spatial, temporal, imaginary, etc. if we simply want to compare the numbers we have the following:

Superman is a four-dimensional being (space-time).

Mr. Mxyzptlk is a five dimensional being (space-time-imagintion).

Perpetua is a six dimensional being (space-time-imagination-unimagined).

.
.
.

Beyonder is an infinite dimensional being.

So you are simultaneously confirming that imagination as a spatial dimension does not exists but are still assigning a number to fifth dimension because Beyonder is infinite dimensional!!

That's some logic. Schrodinger's Astner!!!

But seriously, Mxy would shitstomp Beyonder whether he is infinite dimensional or what not. Heck, going by your logic Darkseid would be equivalent to Beyonder because he was so much above multiverse that his mere presence destroyed the multiverse and he became everything in space/time.

https://tinyurl.com/y2coxo9y

And when we are talking about all space/time, it means every timeline.

https://tinyurl.com/yxrcl7s9

And we know that there are infinite timelines in a single universe as shown in Our Worlds at war.

https://tinyurl.com/y3qkvjod

As you can see, Darkseid became everything in space/time. Which is what that Beyonder scan means (He was everything in his universe, just like what Darkseid had become in the entire multiverse).

deft

The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11137/111374483/6948574-sixth%20dimension.jpg

CatL18

Originally posted by Astner
They're an extension of the spatial dimensions. Only the first three dimensions are spatial. The fourth dimension is time, as explained in the comic, and the 5th and 6th are similarly extensions.

I don't have to deny anything, all I have to do is post the scene where Mr. Mxyzptlk for the Justice League what the dimensions are.

No. Not only hasn't it been established, it's been disproven by Snyder's writing.

Fistly,do you understand that fifth and sixth dimension are notging about spatial and temporal? Their existence does not deny the existence of infinite number of spatial dimensions below them.
Secondly,it has been established that there are infinite number of dimension below bleed space. and it has been established that everything in DC is canon.so no matter what you downplay,the existence of infinite number of dimension can not be denied.

MrMind

Originally posted by Astner
DC has references to Marvel and Dragon Ball, that doesn't mean that Goku is part of the DC Universe.

Does the Wildstorm Multiverse have its own Bleed? Maybe, but it's not the same as the one as in the New 52. We know this for a fact because out of the 52 universes in the New 52 not a single one is associated with Wildstorm.

That said, you are also missing an important element. Comics are inconsistent. Off-issues don't matter as much as events. Currently Dark Metal is the event that's defining DC's cosmology, and anything that contradicts it is wrong. And that's why I'm telling you not to cherry-pick.

you have no arguments,

all you're really doing is closing your eyes, covering your ears and yelling an idea that you just made up. You aren't convincing anybody that you're right, especially when your opponents are providing evidence that you're wrong

doomsday clock is canon, convergence is canon, multiversity is canon

and they told us all past dc eras are parallel universes,

the bleedspace is literally what separates the universes in dc

Originally posted by MrMind
too many things wrong with your post, it's actually not even worth a response

but here it goes wasting my time

new52 is local multiverse out of infinite multiverses, just like pre-crisis

just like post crisis/rebirth, if you read doomsday clock you would know

if you read multiversity you would know, but since you don't read dc comics, what's the point of arguing.

Convergence was the first extremely direct confirmation that a previous iteration of the multiverse had been saved following its reboot,

but the Metaverse has expanded that concept.

Each reboot that changes the Metaverse and results in a new multiverse does NOT remove the previous iteration from existence.

They all exist together, and always have. As such, destroying or threatening a "multiverse" is heavily dependent on the context and era of the story,

and whether or not the entire Orrery itself (discussed further below) was threatened.

Convergence brought back the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

Every multiverse is preserved in the wider DC Multiverse

The New 52 multiverse, for example, is a "local multiverse" of 52 universes

https://i.ibb.co/j83VVrs/Convergence-Pre-Crisis-Multiverse.png
https://i.ibb.co/99Cs1g6/Metaverse-Multiverses.png
https://i.ibb.co/nm6kMzQ/Local-Multiverse.png

THESE ARE CANON FACTS, STOP SPEWING YOUR FAN FICTION

since post crisis is still in dc larger multiverses,

due to canon facts and fukin hypertime

wildstorm is earth 50, have you even read 52 and captain atom armageddon

they literally shars the same bleed with dc multiverse if you read anything with authority or written by morrison at all

I'm not even gonna bother with WF being canon cause it's pointless

MrMind

Originally posted by CatL18
Fistly,do you understand that fifth and sixth dimension are notging about spatial and temporal? Their existence does not deny the existence of infinite number of spatial dimensions below them.
Secondly,it has been established that there are infinite number of dimension below bleed space. and it has been established that everything in DC is canon.so no matter what you downplay,the existence of infinite number of dimension can not be denied.

exactly, the whole theme since rebirth is everything matters, everything is canon

Astner

Originally posted by abhilegend
So you are simultaneously confirming that imagination as a spatial dimension does not exists but are still assigning a number to fifth dimension because Beyonder is infinite dimensional!!
I'm not assigning any numbers, these are numbers assigned in the comics.

Originally posted by CatL18
Fistly,do you understand that fifth and sixth dimension are notging about spatial and temporal?
Yes, I've pointed it out at least twice already.

Originally posted by CatL18
Their existence does not deny the existence of infinite number of spatial dimensions below them.
In the given circumstances they certainly do. There's no 2nd imaginary dimension or 4th unimaginary dimension.

Mr. Mxyzptlk makes it clear that dimensions 1-3 are spatial, the 4th is time, the 5th is imagination and the 6th is the unimaginary.

And a vague reference in an unrelated comic isn't going to change that. Snyder's work is very consistent on this point.

Originally posted by CatL18
Secondly,it has been established that there are infinite number of dimension below bleed space. and it has been established that everything in DC is canon.so no matter what you downplay,the existence of infinite number of dimension can not be denied.
No it hasn't.

Originally posted by MrMind
doomsday clock is canon, convergence is canon, multiversity is canon
Yes they are, but that doesn't change the fact that the Pre-crisis era isn't part of the New 52.

DarkSaint85

Latest Metaverse issue seems to agree with Astner.

Infinite Multiverse, then it was collapsed into a single reality (COIE) then the various crises (ZH etc) failed to recreate it.

AlbertoJohnAvil

So, is DC actually still limited to 52 universes now? I thought it's always been infinite

One Big Mob

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Latest Metaverse issue seems to agree with Astner.

Infinite Multiverse, then it was collapsed into a single reality (COIE) then the various crises (ZH etc) failed to recreate it. Astner ragdolling like always. thumb up

qwertyuiop1998

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
It mentioned IC succeeded though

Only partly.

Astner

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Latest Metaverse issue agrees with Astner.
No shit?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
I'm not assigning any numbers, these are numbers assigned in the comics.

Which is not based on spatial dimensional structure. So any comparison with Beyonder is moot.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Astner
No shit?
Dark multiverse is always with the regular multiverse/universe though. Only positive multiverse changed, Dark Multiverse was always there.

CatL18

Originally posted by Astner

In the given circumstances they certainly do. There's no 2nd imaginary dimension or 4th unimaginary dimension.
Mr. Mxyzptlk makes it clear that dimensions 1-3 are spatial, the 4th is time, the 5th is imagination and the 6th is the unimaginary.
And a vague reference in an unrelated comic isn't going to change that. Snyder's work is very consistent on this point.

Nothing matter because everything is canon and off course references about infinite number of dimension are canon too.
As long as DC confirms that everything is canon, Your downplay doesn't change it.

Originally posted by Astner

No it hasn't.

Read Doomsday Clock.

MrMind

CatL18

Originally posted by MrMind
explain yourself, simpleton
In the first place, What was expressed in Multiverse's End is only an outline.
So,It simpified DC cosmology to an extent.
It doesn' t change the fact that everything is canon and there are countless cosmology omitted by simle expression.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by MrMind
explain yourself, simpleton

sad

So rude

MrMind

Astner is a genius in math but he doesn't even know wildstorm was earth 50 during pre52 era, and pre52 era is seperate timeline via doomsday clock

really simple to understand

Astner at least has some knowledge, Rage is just a ****in idiot

MrMind

so far only the dc side has provided scans and evidences, like always

darkest knight and perpetua are infinite d with highest existence power, doctor manhattan power is the connective energy from dc multiversal crisis. darkest knight will surpass doctor manhattan and maybe even the perpetua.

but the baseline weakest of darkest knight was already shown to be multiversal/omniversal
https://i.ibb.co/64VWKTq/p-MWV7ok7x-M6-Td-YOw-WFTgh-L2m-Znfk5a-SABd6-VWujx-Uyb-SGd8bd-ju-H9ux-xdf9-XZK8-N5dz-UXha-R3-V1-IL0u1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/vDV8vYc/Oe84g9k-Ckb-Vg-Y-09-DCv-YJ5-Ov-N8-NClok-ZT4-Tscy-Zry-J-yjk6d-YQ9mvn0i2-IEXRg-KCf-Mnnoh-BBZSikn25-P5m.jpg

and perpetua has already been shown to be omniversal from one scan introduction, so badass
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6c531dbf36391ca4e7a790d31dcb0780

not to mention....marvel multiverse back in 1985 was not infinite

beyonder best quantifiable feat was shaking a multiverse, and became a universe bigger than the marvel multiverse during that time

beyonder highest statement was being millions times more powerful than the multiverse

perpetua is a being infinitely above the third dimensional multiverse,

monitor realm treated dc third dimensional multiverse like story on papers

sixth dimension is two dimension higher than the monitor realm, it's literally the highest existence in comics.

there's a reason sixth dimensional beings are auto 1-A in vsbattles, but that's entire another discussion.

Astner

Originally posted by CatL18
Nothing matter because everything is canon and off course references about infinite number of dimension are canon too.
When it comes to evidence in comics it's always been quality over quantity. And the fact that you fall back on any vague mention of the word "dimension" only serves to emphasize how weak your argument actually is.

They're not talking about dimensional spaces here, they're talking about universes.

https://i.imgur.com/2Vyfk9f.png

In contrast to these two scenes where dimensional spaces are in fact being discussed.

https://i.imgur.com/sIwGry3.png

https://i.imgur.com/5HsyNs3.png

Originally posted by CatL18
As long as DC confirms that everything is canon, Your downplay doesn't change it.
I'm not even downplaying it. This is literally what the comics say.

Originally posted by CatL18
Read Doomsday Clock.
It was never mentioned. Try again.

Originally posted by MrMind
he doesn't even know wildstorm was earth 50 during pre52 era, and pre52 era is seperate timeline via doomsday clock
Earth-50, in the New 52, has absolutely no connection to Wildstorm. Just as New 52's Earth-1 has no connection to Pre-New 52 Earth-1.

https://i.imgur.com/VjHNZbU.png

MrMind

cool, new52 is not the entirety of current dc cosmology

p52 and pre crisis are parellel universes within the dc multiverse, and convergence brought back all the pre flashpoint realities

https://i.imgur.com/dXLw4Vx_d.webp?maxwidth=728&fidelity=grand

jeff king the convergence writer even said so himself, Every character that ever existed, in any continuity and canon, is now accessible

https://i.ibb.co/W5gyrM4/image.png

it's like talking to a wall

new52 is officially alternative earth, pre52 is rebirth is current timeline

new52 is alternative reality now, earth 52 is new 52

https://i.ibb.co/RjTt9wt/Metaverse-Multiverses.png

you are trolling at this point, stop it

CatL18

Originally posted by Astner
When it comes to evidence in comics it's always been quality over quantity. And the fact that you fall back on any vague mention of the word "dimension" only serves to emphasize how weak your argument actually is.

But,despite yotr bullshit, There are many argument confirming existence of infinite dimensions.
They have been posted in this thread.
You have ignored all of them though.

Originally posted by Astner

They're not talking about dimensional spaces here, they're talking about universes.

Based on what?
At least, Rama kushna has referd to dimensional space.
And,5th and 6th dimension are nothing about dimensional space.
They are above dimensional space.

Originally posted by Astner

I'm not even downplaying it. This is literally what the comics say.

Only in your mind.

Originally posted by Astner

It was never mentioned. Try again.

So,look at this.
And,Dr Manhattan confirmed that everything is canon and revolve around Supepman.
https://ibb.co/VwYbt4b

CatL18

Originally posted by MrMind
cool, new52 is not the entirety of current dc cosmology

p52 and pre crisis are parellel universes within the dc multiverse, and convergence brought back all the pre flashpoint realities

https://i.imgur.com/dXLw4Vx_d.webp?maxwidth=728&fidelity=grand

jeff king the convergence writer even said so himself, Every character that ever existed, in any continuity and canon, is now accessible

https://i.ibb.co/W5gyrM4/image.png

it's like talking to a wall

new52 is officially alternative earth, pre52 is rebirth is current timeline

new52 is alternative reality now, earth 52 is new 52

https://i.ibb.co/RjTt9wt/Metaverse-Multiverses.png

you are trolling at this point, stop it
I don't understand why people deny the fact that everything is canon.
It has been confirmed many times.

MrMind

CatL18, what nationality are you? I assume just like me, english is not your first language either?

DarkSaint85

CatL8 is Chinese, I imagine.

CatL18

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
CatL8 is Chinese, I imagine.
No,I am asian though, I am not chinese.

MrMind

that's ok, DS is asian too, I'm half asian half saiyan

StiltmanFTW

I'm an octopus and each one of my tentacles is a penis.

DarkSaint85

I wish you were a squid.

Astner

Originally posted by CatL18
But,despite yotr bullshit, There are many argument confirming existence of infinite dimensions.
They have been posted in this thread.
You have ignored all of them though.
I've not ignored a single one. In fact I've repeatedly pointed out that they're semantically incoherent with the argument you and MrMind are trying to make.

Originally posted by CatL18
Based on what?
Based on the text. I even highlighted it for you.

Originally posted by CatL18
At least, Rama kushna has referd to dimensional space.
No she wasn't. She and Deadman were in a realm between the living and the dead.

https://i.imgur.com/29Wa8fy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5NTf2u4.jpg

It was, again, a universe. Or if you go by the story, a part of a universe.

https://i.imgur.com/0vqjGH6.jpg

Originally posted by CatL18
And,5th and 6th dimension are nothing about dimensional space.

They are above dimensional space.
Are you dense? Why would Mr. Mxyzptlk even explain the fifth and the sixth dimension as an extension of space-time if they were something else entirely?

They're obviously different modes of apprehension, just as time is different from space, but they were an extension of that system the entirety of which can be described with six-dimensional tensors.

Originally posted by CatL18
So,look at this.
And,Dr Manhattan confirmed that everything is canon and revolve around Supepman.
https://ibb.co/VwYbt4b
That's not what you said. You said that Doomsday Clock clearly outlined that there where infinite dimensions. You were wrong.

What you're posting now is a meta-commentary on the history of the Crises and the Multiverse. No one is denying that these events happened in some sense, but it's also completely irrelevant. Because there's no reliable references to greater spatial dimensions. And Mr. Mxyzptlk has always been among the most powerful characters in the setting, despite "only" being five-dimensional.

And Perpetua is six-dimensional, and everything that has ever happened in the DC Multiverse has always been within the confines of her six dimensions.

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by Astner
I've not ignored a single one. In fact I've repeatedly pointed out that they're semantically incoherent with the argument you and MrMind are trying to make.

Based on the text. I even highlighted it for you.

No she wasn't. She and Deadman were in a realm between the living and the dead.

https://i.imgur.com/29Wa8fy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5NTf2u4.jpg

It was, again, a universe. Or if you go by the story, a part of a universe.

https://i.imgur.com/0vqjGH6.jpg

Are you dense? Why would Mr. Mxyzptlk even explain the fifth and the sixth dimension as an extension of space-time if they were something else entirely?

They're obviously different modes of apprehension, just as time is different from space, but they were an extension of that system the entirety of which can be described with six-dimensional tensors.

That's not what you said. You said that Doomsday Clock clearly outlined that there where infinite dimensions. You were wrong.

What you're posting now is a meta-commentary on the history of the Crises and the Multiverse. No one is denying that these events happened in some sense, but it's also completely irrelevant. Because there's no reliable references to greater spatial dimensions. And Mr. Mxyzptlk has always been among the most powerful characters in the setting, despite "only" being five-dimensional.

And Perpetua is six-dimensional, and everything that has ever happened in the DC Multiverse has always been within the confines of her six dimensions.

Question, so DC was never confirmed to be infinite?

Astner

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Question, so DC was never confirmed to be infinite?
Depends on what you mean with infinite. Its number of dimensions were always six according to the recent stories, so it was certainly finite in that sense. The number of universes were infinite during the Crisis on Infinite Earths and before Flashpoint. Currently there are 52 universe in the Multiverse and an "infinite" number unstable universes in the Dark Multiverse.

The universes themselves may well be infinite in measure, but I'm not sure on that.

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by Astner
Depends on what you mean with infinite. Its number of dimensions were always six according to the recent stories, so it was certainly finite in that sense. The number of universes were infinite during the Crisis on Infinite Earths and before Flashpoint. Currently there are 52 universe in the Multiverse and an "infinite" number unstable universes in the Dark Multiverse.

The universes themselves may well be infinite in measure, but I'm not sure on that.

laughing out loud

6? That's funny, Marvel's dimensions is infinite

MrMind

are you trolling just to troll, albertroll?

https://i.imgur.com/Xq1N0fu.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897160-inf%20d4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/99phbd2/6897162-inf-di.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KqqsTnj/6897164-dimen.jpg

on the other hand the biggest existence in marvel, the beyond realm, has no evidence to be bigger than dark multiverse or the monitor realm

let alone 5th or 6th dimensions

qwertyuiop1998

Also didn't Morrison's GL run mention dimension ZERO?
https://ibb.co/7Svsgqq
So there are only six dimensions in DC just based on their names this logic is flawed, at least in dc's case.

AlbertoJohnAvil

Originally posted by MrMind
are you trolling just to troll, albertroll?

https://i.imgur.com/Xq1N0fu.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897160-inf%20d4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/99phbd2/6897162-inf-di.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KqqsTnj/6897164-dimen.jpg

on the other hand the biggest existence in marvel, the beyond realm, has no evidence to be bigger than dark multiverse or the monitor realm

let alone 5th or 6th dimensions

laughing out loud

MrMind

Metron talked about there are twenty eight dimensions currently KNOWN

the same was referenced again by in rock of ages

https://i.ibb.co/hD3qpW0/DC28D1.png
https://i.ibb.co/NF0DPSz/DC28D2.png

MrMind

the sphere of gods size alone dwarf the marvel multiverse

they are not material worlds but living ideas

there are as many universes as there are souls in heaven

new genesis view mortal universes as tiny bubbles

post secret wars marvel multiverse is not infinite, that was specifically stated in FF during the time they fought griever

abhilegend

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
laughing out loud

I wish i was, Marvel is HILARIOUSLY bigger than DC, These are ancient Multiverse embodiments, each of them existing before the current Marvel Multiverse, each of them still alive. That's SEVERAL Eternities, DC doesn't come close in terms of cosmology size.

https://imgur.com/a/GuwQyYh
Those are just universes which were split into multiverses. The multiverse combined is weaker than a single universe.

Some weak multiverse right there.

CatL18

Originally posted by Astner
I've not ignored a single one. In fact I've repeatedly pointed out that they're semantically incoherent with the argument you and MrMind are trying to make.
But, You posted nothing to disprove that everything is canon.
On the other hand, We have posted evidence. and We have posted evidences confirming existence of infinite number of dimension.
Which is true?

Originally posted by Astner

Based on the text. I even highlighted it for you.

So, Prove it.
Other than them, JLD confirmed the existence of infinite dimension.

Originally posted by Astner

No she wasn't. She and Deadman were in a realm between the living and the dead.

Being realm between living and dead is not exclusive to being higher dimension.
In fact, Rama Kushna confirmed that it is higher dimension than ordinary dimension.
In fact, There are many reference about infinite spatial D below Bleed space.

Originally posted by Astner

Are you dense? Why would Mr. Mxyzptlk even explain the fifth and the sixth dimension as an extension of space-time if they were something else entirely?

Imagination and Non-imagination have nothing to do with spatial and temporal.
Realms above Bleed are nothing about temporal or spatial.
So,They don't deny existence of infinite number of spatial and temporal dimensions.

Originally posted by Astner

That's not what you said. You said that Doomsday Clock clearly outlined that there where infinite dimensions. You were wrong.

I took Doomsday Clock as one of the evidence of that everything is canon.
And,There are more to prove it.

Originally posted by Astner

What you're posting now is a meta-commentary on the history of the Crises and the Multiverse. No one is denying that these events happened in some sense, but it's also completely irrelevant. Because there's no reliable references to greater spatial dimensions. And Mr. Mxyzptlk has always been among the most powerful characters in the setting, despite "only" being five-dimensional.

As long as everything is canon
6D>5D>Sphere of Gods>Bleed>infinite number of spatial and temporal dimensions.
6D and 5D is extra.
They are nothing about spatial or temporal.
It has been confirmed again and again.