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who wins

LSSJ is overkill. Base Broly crushes him.

Which Broly?

Not even sure it matters, non canon Broly could probably take SSJ2 Teen Gohan.


He just walked through that point blank Kamehameha that blasted off Cell's top. Both were depowered, but there's a pretty clear durability difference.

Originally posted by cdtm
Not even sure it matters, non canon Broly could probably take SSJ2 Teen Gohan.


He just walked through that point blank Kamehameha that blasted off Cell's top. Both were depowered, but there's a pretty clear durability difference.

SSJ2 Gohan destroyed Super Bojack, though.

And movie continuity makes it clear each next villain was more powerful than the previous one.


So it's most likely like this:

Second Coming Broly > SSJ2 Gohan > Super Bojack > Original Broly

If it's Movie 8 Broly, Gohan wins. If it's Movie 10 Broly, Gohan probably loses after a very close fight.

Gohan in Movie 10 didn't neglect his training like in the anime/manga continuity, if memory serves.

And from the film sketches, he was very much meant to be SSJ2, it's just that TOEI hates the ssj2 transformation for some reason.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/c6/8f/82c68fbb4b4a1ed485cc8ca7e6d403d0.jpg

Of course, people are still debating it to this day, same as Gohan/Dabura fight.

He didn't neglect his training in the movies? I always assumed he had(just like in the 'mainstream' timeline.) /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
He didn't neglect his training in the movies? I always assumed he had(just like in the 'mainstream' timeline.) /shrug

I'd need to rewatch Second Coming and compare dub with subs (neither of the Broly sequels appealed to me much, so my memory is spotty on them).

But it was one of the major differences, iirc.



Here, from kanzenshuu:



https://i.ibb.co/XLP6rPH/gohansc.png

Source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17060&start=30840

Yeah, he really does say that.

Around 34m00s.

He's as bad a monster as ever! And here I'm supposed to have powered up considerably since back then!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'd need to rewatch Second Coming and compare dub with subs (neither of the Broly sequels appealed to me much, so my memory is spotty on them).

But it was one of the major differences, iirc.



Here, from kanzenshuu:



https://i.ibb.co/XLP6rPH/gohansc.png

Source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17060&start=30840

That is legit. I just checked my copy of the Jap dub:
https://ibb.co/pfXz9kk
https://ibb.co/CzkCSnY

I guess I never realized(or if I did, I forgot all about it), because the line was removed from the English dub.

So like you said: that means Movie 10(Boo era) Gohan > Movie 8/9(Cell era) Gohan. So in that case, M10 Broly would obviously stomp Cell-era Gohan comfortably.


*And yes, I definitely believe that Gohan was using SS2 against Broly(and Dabura for that matter), because there would have been absolutely NO reason for him to hold back a vast amount of his power against either of them.

Originally posted by Galan007
because there would have been absolutely NO reason for him to hold back a vast amount of his power against either of them.

Exactly.

It wasn't some test or sparring... and it's just not Gohan's style to limit himself just to make fights more challenging/fun.

He's not Goku, lol.

Yep.

When Gohan fought Broly, he was the only one on earth capable of doing anything at all against him(Goku was dead at the time, and Vegeta was logically weaker than him), and he still got stomped... Gohan isn't a dipshit, and certainly wouldn't have held back a transformation that could have doubled his power for the lulz, given that the earth's survival was at stake.

With Dabura it's even more obvious that he was logically using SS2, but I won't get into that here...

Toei complicated everything by randomly adding lightning/sparks to non-ssj2 transformations and forgetting about them during some ssj2 scenes.

Toriyama is not without his own fault, of course, but he remembered about those damn sparks most of the time, at least.

--
Anyway, we agree that only M8 Broly loses this match.

I understand zenkais are unique to Saiyans, but I never got why some of the characters (mainly during the Namek arc) were so surprised by the fact that their powers increase with training and fighting.

Like, didn't their own powers also increase with training and fighting?

Dodoria and Zarbon thought that Vegeta increasing his PL from 18,000 to 24,000 was impossible.

So while I'm sure most of the B cast back then could increase their PLs to some extent with intensive training, they evidently couldn't increase by *that* much. Hence them being blown away by relatively mediocre Saiyan zenkai boosts.


*I'm not including DBS examples, because it seems like everyone of note has leveled up to at least God-tier power for literally no reason at all.

Through out the entirety of early dragon ball, 6 years of training on got goku a couple hundred pl points.

Originally posted by Galan007
*I'm not including DBS examples, because it seems like everyone of note has leveled up to at least God-tier power for literally no reason at all.



Seriously, yeah.

I guess future Trunks in the DBS flashback was also SSJ2 against Babidi and Dabura, just they didnt show the sparks because of Toei inconsistency as pointed out. But yeah.

We actually see in the manga the point Trunks goes ssj2 against Dabura. So, the manga is always consistent with the ssj2 people having the lightning aura.

I assume that was also the case with Gohan vs Dabura in the manga.

Gohan never has lightning around him, in the same chapters than Goku and Vegeta have it around them.Literally the only time you don't see lightning around ssj2, is when Goku uses it for one panel to destroy Yakon... Unless you want to believe that Akira somehow forgot to use it on Gohan, yet not Goku, or Vegeta, or having used it on Gohan when he had the anger from Videl being hurt.

Also Gohan admits when Buu emerges he hadn't been able to tap into his full power.

Oh right. Solidifies then that movie 10 Gohan > pansy canon Gohan during early Buu saga.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Through out the entirety of early dragon ball, 6 years of training on got goku a couple hundred pl points.

It took Master Roshie 3 years just to get strong enough to take the sacred water from Korin. Goku did it in three days.

Saiyans level up ridiculously easily compared to everyone else (Barring Super, and a god tier ticket under every seat)..

Originally posted by cdtm
It took Master Roshie 3 years just to get strong enough to take the sacred water from Korin. Goku did it in three days.

Saiyans level up ridiculously easily compared to everyone else (Barring Super, and a god tier ticket under every seat).. to be fair, Goku was on level with Roshi, when it took him 3 days to do so.

Originally posted by Kento
to be fair, Goku was on level with Roshi, when it took him 3 days to do so.

Roshie also fought fairly well against Tien, who was stronger then Tao Pie Pie.


Meaning he was probably holding back a lot against Goku in their tournament (And Krillin too). After all, his point was to test them, not crush them.

Originally posted by cdtm
Roshie also fought fairly well against Tien, who was stronger then Tao Pie Pie.


Meaning he was probably holding back a lot against Goku in their tournament (And Krillin too). After all, his point was to test them, not crush them. Didn't Roshi admit to himself the only reason he won against Goku was because of the height difference in their final attack, because Roshi was able to get connect with a much stronger kick?

Originally posted by Kento
Didn't Roshi admit to himself the only reason he won against Goku was because of the height difference in their final attack, because Roshi was able to get connect with a much stronger kick?


He did.


Doesn't mean he still wasn't going easy on him. Goku was going easy on Toppo, and still lost legitimately under his self imposed limitations.


And remember, when Goku and Roshie were struggling to their feet to declare "I am the winner", Roshie bounced up rather easily, while Goku fell onto his face.

Originally posted by cdtm
He did.


Doesn't mean he still wasn't going easy on him. Goku was going easy on Toppo, and still lost legitimately under his self imposed limitations.


And remember, when Goku and Roshie were struggling to their feet to declare "I am the winner", Roshie bounced up rather easily, while Goku fell onto his face. Roshi also said to himself he had been secretly training during the next tournament. So of course he would be stronger, than he had been.

And Roshi still got up after Goku did, even though Goku's kick didn't hit as cleanly because he was shorter.

Originally posted by Kento
Didn't Roshi admit to himself the only reason he won against Goku was because of the height difference in their final attack, because Roshi was able to get connect with a much stronger kick?
I was under the impression he only resorted to that because he spent the majority of his energy he had popping the moon

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I was under the impression he only resorted to that because he spent the majority of his energy he had popping the moon After that battle, he felt the need to train though.

It's KID Gohan, not Teen Gohan. Teen Gohan is the Buu Saga version because he's the actual teenager.

Kid Gohan punches a hole through Movie 8 Broly. The Cell Juniors and Bojack's minions are just as strong as the Movie 8 Saiyans and Piccolo and Kid Gohan took the villains out way easier than Broly did the heroes. Perfect Cell and Bojack are just as strong or nearly as strong as Movie 8 Broly and Kid Gohan easily handled the former two, so he's going to exert only a little bit more effort to take out the latter.

Kid Gohan high diffs Movie 10 Broly. I don't believe Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than Cell Games Gohan and Movie 9 Gohan even if he's probably stronger than Movie 8 Gohan (which is no big feat considering he was the weakest among the good guys).

Originally posted by Marikina
I don't believe Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than Cell Games Gohan

Why?

Movies happen in their own self-contained universe.

Base Gohan one-shot-killed Frieza in Fusion Reborn (M12), something that should be impossible in the mainstream continuity.

https://tinyurl.com/y5t9eoup

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/y5t9eoup


Why couldn't that be mystic Gohan.

Because he looks nothing like mystic?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because he looks nothing like mystic?


Mystic just looks like base Gohan though.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21902


Guess there's some differences.

I dunno, I don't usually notice little things unless they're side by side comparisons. A friend had to tell me my TV reds looked pink once.


Either way, the DB nerds on that site are arguing Freeza was probably depowered, and that Base Gohan could have one shot him easy enough. Pretty sure they mean "canon" Gohan.

Originally posted by cdtm
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21902


Guess there's some differences.

Distinct facial features, hair and attitude, yes.

Originally posted by cdtm
Either way, the DB nerds on that site are arguing Freeza was probably depowered

Frieza wasn't depowered, he just wasn't in his 100% bulky form. That's what they mean. Can you read?

To be fair, Base Gohan didn't even take his time to power up properly or erect his aura.

Originally posted by cdtm
, and that Base Gohan could have one shot him easy enough. Pretty sure they mean "canon" Gohan.

Which makes perfect sense, considering that all Supreme Kais were said to be capable of one-shotting Frieza.

And Shin spent most of his panel/screen time nerdgasming over Saiyans.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I assume that was also the case with Gohan vs Dabura in the manga. Gohan was weaker at the beginning of the Boo saga than he was during the Cell Games, while Dabura was equal to Perfect Cell.

So literally the only way that Gohan could have stalemated Dabura is if he was using SS2(as a Cell-level being would have utterly stomped Boo saga SS1 Gohan.)

The scaling would be:
SS2 Gohan(Cell Games) > SS2 Gohan(Boo saga) ~ Dabura ~ Perfect Cell > SS1 Gohan(Cell Games) > SS1 Gohan(Boo saga)

Originally posted by Galan007
Gohan was weaker at the beginning of the Boo saga than he was during the Cell Games, while Dabura was equal to Perfect Cell.

So literally the only way that Gohan could have stalemated Dabura is if he was using SS2(as a Cell-level being would have utterly stomped Boo saga SS1 Gohan.)

The scaling would be:
SS2 Gohan(Cell Games) > SS2 Gohan(Boo saga) ~ Dabura ~ Perfect Cell > SS1 Gohan(Cell Games) > SS1 Gohan(Boo saga)


If Toriyama didn't mean Super Perfect Cell.


Logically, Goku never even saw his powered up form, and would compare him to the weaker Perfect one he actually knew. But this is Toriyama we're talking about here, he could totally have forgotten about those details.

It was logically Perfect Cell, imo. Goku is who compared Dabura to Cell, after all, so it would make sense for him to use the version of Cell that he had personally fought as a measuring stick.

But even if it was SPC, the point still stands: Gohan must have been using SS2 against Dabura.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was logically Perfect Cell, imo. Goku is who compared Dabura to Cell, after all, so it would make sense for him to use the version of Cell that he had personally fought as a measuring stick.

But even if it was SPC, the point still stands: Gohan must have been using SS2 against Dabura. Except for nothing is pointing to him using it. The defining trait to show the two differences is never used after he shows it to Kibito. Akira did that purposefully, because every other instance of ssj2 had those sparks. Before, after, and during the times Gohan was using Super Saiyan and fighting.

Saying he must have been doesn't match up with what is shown on panels.

And Gohan was losing the battle against Dabura, slowly, but still losing.

If he wasn't using it, how could he have been holding his own?


All three of them could do SSJ2, which is why Vegeta threatened to finish Dabura himself, and why Goku was sure he could and begged him not to (Even if Goku and Vegeta never revealed SSJ2 to each other, but Vegeta suspected it, and Goku could have been checking on him from Otherworld)

Originally posted by Kento
Except for nothing is pointing to him using it. The defining trait to show the two differences is never used after he shows it to Kibito. Akira did that purposefully, because every other instance of ssj2 had those sparks. Before, after, and during the times Gohan was using Super Saiyan and fighting.

Saying he must have been doesn't match up with what is shown on panels.

And Gohan was losing the battle against Dabura, slowly, but still losing. Except a Perfect Cell-level being(Dabura) would have ragdolled SS1 Gohan without much trouble. Therefore Gohan must have been using SS2 in order to stalemate Dabura for as long as he did.

You have to look beyond the lightning sparks and think about what's logical here.

And he did demonstrate his ability to go SSJ2 in front of Kibito not long before fighting Dabura...

So, again, no reason for him not to use SSJ2 against Dabura.

Originally posted by Galan007
Except a Perfect Cell-level being(Dabura) would have ragdolled SS1 Gohan without much trouble. Therefore Gohan must have been using SS2 in order to stalemate Dabura for as long as he did.

You have to look beyond the lightning sparks and think about what's logical here. If Dabura was also stricly Perfect Cell level, SSJ2 Gohan would not have struggled against him.

The way he ragdolled Cell without even trying at ssj2, his power would have had to been almost cut in half, not just been stronger as a kid.

And even then, right before he fights SPC with a beam struggle, he says he's lost half his ki anyway. For Gohan to be so weak that he needed ssj2 to fight Cell that badly would be terrible loss of power.

But why would Gohan hold back so much?

We know he didn't lose his ability to go SSJ2, so what would be the point of limiting himself just to SSJ1?

Because he's a nerd.

Smarter then his father in life, just as stupid in fighting.

He is dumb, sure, but he showed Kibito he could go SSJ2.

So... choosing not to go ssj2 against Dabura doesn't make any sense.

Nah, I'm with you on this. I just wanted to call Gohan dumb.


But yes, he had absolutely no reason to hold back. Its not in his character.

Originally posted by Kento
If Dabura was also stricly Perfect Cell level, SSJ2 Gohan would not have struggled against him.

The way he ragdolled Cell without even trying at ssj2, his power would have had to been almost cut in half, not just been stronger as a kid.

And even then, right before he fights SPC with a beam struggle, he says he's lost half his ki anyway. For Gohan to be so weak that he needed ssj2 to fight Cell that badly would be terrible loss of power. Do you agree that Perfect Cell was stronger than SS1 Gohan during the Cell Games?

If you agree, then how can you think that SS1 Gohan from the Boo saga(who was explicitly weaker than he was during the Cell Games) could have possibly stalemated a Perfect Cell-level being?

He went ssj2 just fine in Chapter 444.

So... he forgot about it completely just ten chapters later (each db "chapter" = one issue)... in the same story arc?

Yeah, right.

Dabura came off as holding back to me, and I still doubt Gohan was "half as powerful" due to training before hand and still able to go SS2 on command. No doubt he was weaker but the whole thing seems ****ed from both ends.

Also how well Dabura did against SS Trunks in the Manga, and then took his rage SS2 attacks fairly well. This is after Trunks was swinging around the Z Sword like a normal sword, so he'd probably be equal to Gohan at least before the ritual. That and his comments make it seem like he was holding back. Though if Gohan wasn't that much weaker than his kid form and SS2 then that would work as well. Either way SS Trunks was stronger than SS Gohan by a large degree when he initially pulled the Z-Sword out, and Dabura was fighting him to a point where he seemed to have the upper hand.

M10 Gohan was stronger than his cell games counterpart, add this to the fact that the DC of the movie xters were far higher than the Canon counterparts....broly beats his ass

Yeah, Dabura easily had Gohan figured out, despite underestimating him a couple moments. He was most certainly holding back, at least compared to Buu where he went all out.

At any rate, Teen Gohan beats movie 8 Broly, but loses to M10.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why?

Movies happen in their own self-contained universe.

Base Gohan one-shot-killed Frieza in Fusion Reborn (M12), something that should be impossible in the mainstream continuity.

I don't see why it should be impossible. Base Saiyans weren't established as being weaker than Frieza until BoG. Even movie 5 Base Goku was considered stronger than Frieza by Cooler.

Originally posted by Marikina
I don't see why it should be impossible. Base Saiyans weren't established as being weaker than Frieza until BoG. Even movie 5 Base Goku was considered stronger than Frieza by Cooler.

I agree.