Wonder Woman vs Maxima

beatboks

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Maxima speed feats arent that impressive. Am i missing sumthin?

She scales in flat lime speed above Dianna given she's been shown on panel to be faster than character who are faster than others that Dianna can't match.

Dianna does have better reaction feats (since Maxima doesn't really have many at all).

In strength and durability Maxima has a clear edge.

Then for Dianna we add the lasso, while for Maxima we add TK strong enough to hold class 100s, TP, matter manip, teleportation, simulcrams (duplicates), ferokinisis, and Psionic energy blasts.

Maxima has a lot more powers to bring to the table and an edge in only combat reactions doesn't really compensate for that.

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
She scales in flat lime speed above Dianna given she's been shown on panel to be faster than character who are faster than others that Dianna can't match.

Dianna does have better reaction feats (since Maxima doesn't really have many at all).

In strength and durability Maxima has a clear edge.

Then for Dianna we add the lasso, while for Maxima we add TK strong enough to hold class 100s, TP, matter manip, teleportation, simulcrams (duplicates), ferokinisis, and Psionic energy blasts.

Maxima has a lot more powers to bring to the table and an edge in only combat reactions doesn't really compensate for that. Speed is the deciding factor here. We need to see Maxima's speed feats or a character's comments concerning her speed. Any relative slow character can tag a speedster in a comic (anything can happen in a comic). Doesn't mean the slow character is as fast as the speedster.

Now scaling would work if a character commented about Maxima's speed in comparison to another speedster. That would be the writer's way of telling the reader how fast Maxima is in comparison to that speedster.

lawest9

Originally posted by zopzop
They did. Maxima mindphucked her into oblivion. Remember, Maxima is also a planetary level telepath. How does 'planetary level' compares to MM, Xavier, Jean?

MrMind

There's no marvel characters here, carv

beatboks

I wouldn't say she is planetary level TP. She is in TK but where TP is concerned probably just below. In TK she held together her planet when it was crumbling apart.

She did Labotomize Brainiac which is a decent TP feats because the version she did it too wasn't a weak TPer. She did however loose to Brainwave Jnr in Extreme Justice. More to the point she lost on the astral plane to the aspect of Brainwave Snr within Jnr that his dad gave him upon his death which increased Jnr's power level.

Pre his death BW Snr was definitely planetary level TPer as he was casting illusions allover the planet at once visible to multitudes. He was also powerful enough when a novice to TP push Corrigan Spectre to feel himself needed elsewhere in ALL star Squadron. Loosing to BW Snr in TP isn't a low showing but it was only an aspect of him not the full him. BW Snr would likely be Xavier level or slightly above. He's certainly above MMH in TP power so on that lets say Maxima scales at 1/2 That (maybe). I think that would fit with stomping standard TP Brainiac

ShadowFyre

Maxima should beat the everloving shit outta Clark with complete ease based off of powersets and the fact that WW has consistently been shown to be able to hang and sometimes surpass him.

She has a pretty badass powerset if you ask me. Kind of feels like she D&D rolled for random ass powers🤣
Can someone please remind /show me why she is

ShadowFyre

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8
Speed is the deciding factor here. We need to see Maxima's speed feats or a character's comments concerning her speed. Any relative slow character can tag a speedster in a comic (anything can happen in a comic). Doesn't mean the slow character is as fast as the speedster.

Now scaling would work if a character commented about Maxima's speed in comparison to another speedster. That would be the writer's way of telling the reader how fast Maxima is in comparison to that speedster.

I disagree that speed is the deciding Factor but if it is maximum has the speed advantage it was stated on panel by Jay Garrick that she's as fast as him and that's the reference on referring to Diana comparatively cannot keep up with Jesse quick who is not as fast as Jay. Ive been looking for the scan but can't find it yet.

Given however that Maxima can instantly teleport light-years distance and has done so to one of her people.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_teleport1.jpg

And has casually teleported herself
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_teleport5.jpg

The ability to travel vast distances instantly at a thought surpasses physical Speed.

Additionally Maxima has the ability to shield herself with TK (though she doesn't really need them since unlike Dianna she is actually impervious).

She can channel her psionic powers into her physicals to enhance them.

She has optic blasts, brain blasts, matter manipulation.

She can create duplicated meaning Diana could be fighting 2 or 3 Maxima's. Here when Extreme Justice believed she was killed it was just a simulacrum
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_avatar2.jpg
That was from extreme Justice 10,another example was Action comics 465.

Never mind the fact that she has already TP controlled WW and made her fight her team mates.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/3/33599/939777- jla_annual_06_pgs_36_37_maxima_mind_controls_ww_pa
nel.jpg
The point is mute

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
I disagree that speed is the deciding Factor but if it is maximum has the speed advantage it was stated on panel by Jay Garrick that she's as fast as him and that's the reference on referring to Diana comparatively cannot keep up with Jesse quick who is not as fast as Jay. Ive been looking for the scan but can't find it yet.

Given however that Maxima can instantly teleport light-years distance and has done so to one of her people.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_teleport1.jpg

And has casually teleported herself
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_teleport5.jpg

The ability to travel vast distances instantly at a thought surpasses physical Speed.

Additionally Maxima has the ability to shield herself with TK (though she doesn't really need them since unlike Dianna she is actually impervious).

She can channel her psionic powers into her physicals to enhance them.

She has optic blasts, brain blasts, matter manipulation.

She can create duplicated meaning Diana could be fighting 2 or 3 Maxima's. Here when Extreme Justice believed she was killed it was just a simulacrum
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_avatar2.jpg
That was from extreme Justice 10,another example was Action comics 465.

Never mind the fact that she has already TP controlled WW and made her fight her team mates.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/3/33599/939777- jla_annual_06_pgs_36_37_maxima_mind_controls_ww_pa
nel.jpg
The point is mute

Imagine a character that can only manage to move his/her hand 1mm after 1 min time or takes 1 min to make a simple thought. To a significantly faster character, the slower character would appear this way.

That's why speed is relevant. It is equivalent to fighting a statue who cant make an action within the 1st min.

If a character, in real time, takes 0.4 of a second to teleport (starting with making the decision to teleport and then the time it takes to activate the power) then that character would be frozen for at least minutes to a character with light speed reflexes and limb movement before they even teleport. Remember a statue who can teleport (and do many other things) is still a statue LONG before they teleport (or do those other things).

Here's the kicker:
1. One can not teleport a being who they can't lock on to (a fast moving being with changing locations)
2. One who teleports back to a different location on the battlefield is still a statue once they appear back.

I need to see the Jay scan and your last scan isn't working.

beatboks

In that above scan Superman compares Maxima's strength and speed to Matrix (Supergirl level)

beatboks

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111157701/3882382-annual%20justice%20league%20america%20%20%20-eclipso%20v1%20%236%20-%20page%2037.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111157701/3882385-annual%20justice%20league%20america%20%20%20-eclipso%20v1%20%236%20-%20page%2038.jpg

Maxima mind controlling WW

beatboks

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Issue-651?id=25923

Action comics #651

ShadowFyre

Originally posted by h1a8
What issue is this? I want to read it to make sure there is no specific plot points.

I have never seen maxima move with super speed.

You haven't seen a lot of things that you argue for/against. Hasn't stopped you before

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Issue-651?id=25923

Action comics #651

Ok thanks.
So I'll argue this: Obviously Maxima has some type of flight superspeed. But all superspeed isn't the same. In other words, having super speed in itself would not prevent one from being a statue or a slowski to WW. You need a certain level of superspeed for that.

Also, the comic doesn't really display her with significant reflexes (perception speed) on the level in which WW can attack. Maxima always managed to get tagged by relative slow attacks and never shown contradictory showings.

WW has lassoed Zoom before.

Lastly, the comic displayed One smack from Superman koed her. PIS maybe? Unless you want to give Superman a strength feat there?

This fight is a quick draw scenario. If WW manages to land the first blow then she wins. If Maxima happens to TP WW (which could take more than a half of a second) then she wins.

Since I'm not convinced of Maxima's quick draw speed and perception speed I'm still saying that WW wins.

Stoic

Originally posted by beatboks
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Issue-651?id=25923

Action comics #651

Don't bother.

h1a8

Zoom was moving at superspeed when WW lassoed him. confused

Yup because Superman wasn't using speed. Same logic as Grundy, Mongul, etc always tag Superman. WW wasn't in DOS. And WW has taken a ton of blows from Superman, Supergirl, Ares, Hercules, etc. She can easily take the same amount of blows that Maxima took.
No one in comics is impervious, not even Superman. If so then she wouldn't be koed from a simple slap. Yup because this is irrelevant to the fight. The argument is whether Maxima would be a statue or slow moving being to WW. The argument is whether or not WW lands the first blow. Yup because Superman didn't use speed to try to avoid such tactics. BS. WW has hurt Superman and beings significantly more durable than Maxima. WW strength feats are greater than Maxima's durability feats. Maxima durability isn't that great honestly (in comparison to other top tiers). Plus WW can one shot Maxima with the sword.

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8
Zoom was moving at superspeed when WW lassoed him. :

No he wasn't.
He had just held up an Amazon punching her for a second.
He had a few time duplicates of himself.
WW kicked some stones to see which was the real one and then lassoed it.

Zoom was moving a hell of a lot less than than Superman does in those battles your referencing (grundy etc)

On which, none of those characters ever DODGE Supes, they tank the blow. Maxima actually dodges. Just like in the issue I linked where you claim she had no reactuon feat she catches the arm of Superman speeding at her and judo throws him (again he was moving more than Zoom in WW 214 hypocrite)

carver9

Wonder Woman has blitzed Amazo and yes, with flight speed as well. Theres no way Maxima is as fast as her. She has also tied Amazo up before he had the chance to react. Same will happen here.

beatboks

Doomsday was in WW 111, and 112 , but of course we just ignore any feats that we dont like, or claim they are something different

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman has blitzed Amazo and yes, with flight speed as well. Theres no way Maxima is as fast as her. She has also tied Amazo up before he had the chance to react. Same will happen here.

Because TK powerfulbenoughnto hold together a crumbling planet can't possibly keep a rope off her. What a crock

carver9

Originally posted by beatboks
Because TK powerfulbenoughnto hold together a crumbling planet can't possibly keep a rope off her. What a crock

Maxima is more of a brawler than anything and is she on average portrayed at those levels? There's no way she is holding Diana in place and taking her out, especially with the speed gap here.

Diana has outright blitzed Amazo on more than one occasion. Blitzed Zoom, tagged Flash, too fast for Amazo to hit. The speed gap between these 2 is HUGE. A more solid argument can be made of Diana tying Maxima up than Maxima holding Diana in place with TK... example

Diana ties Amazo up before he could finish a though or react...

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/zI3P5

She out reacts Amazo again...

https://ibb.co/sKr69TN

And again...

https://ibb.co/VTHVqVC

I can post her doing the same to Supergirl and Superman if you want.

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
No he wasn't.
He had just held up an Amazon punching her for a second.
He had a few time duplicates of himself.
WW kicked some stones to see which was the real one and then lassoed it.

Zoom was moving a hell of a lot less than than Superman does in those battles your referencing (grundy etc)

On which, none of those characters ever DODGE Supes, they tank the blow. Maxima actually dodges. Just like in the issue I linked where you claim she had no reactuon feat she catches the arm of Superman speeding at her and judo throws him (again he was moving more than Zoom in WW 214 hypocrite)

Duplicates of himself? I thought that was him moving at superspeed.
I could be wrong as it been a long time. I'll check that comic out again and get back with you.

Edit: just reread through the issue. Zoom was in superspeed mode when you see multiple images of him. So the feat is far more impressive than you realize.

Arabus

Maxima is fast enough to deal with Wonder Woman if they were to duke it out.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, Maxima's appearance in 'Action Comics 651' already puts her reaction times in the right ballpark.

Superman's thought balloon says, "I come to investigate an explosion, and I find something rocketing aloft -- at escape velocity".

- That something is Sazu being TK-piloted into orbit, with Maxima following.
- Superman uses his super-speed to fly past Maxima and loop back so that he's charging her from the front.
- As they are about to intercept one another, Maxima is fast enough to perceive the right moment to grab Superman's arm and judo-throw him back in the direction that he came from.

As Superman approaches street-level from being thrown, he recovers and his word balloon says, "She's certainly strong, and fast ! This reminds me of my first encounter with the Matrix." This is in reference to 'Superman 21' where Clark was being pursued by Matrix Supergirl in the clouds. Superman sensed that he was being followed from behind so he used his super-speed to fly up, over, and back down in a loop to get behind Matrix Supergirl -- eventually, catching her by the ankle.

Once Superman flies up back to within reach of Maxima far above Metropolis, she zips around him and says, "Can you catch me Superman? Do try! I have waited so long for this -- do not disappoint me!"

"Remarkable." reads Superman's thought balloon.

carver9

After typing all of that, it still ends with Wonder Woman being faster. Nice post though.

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
Doomsday was in WW 111, and 112 , but of course we just ignore any feats that we dont like, or claim they are something different

Although WW took multiple blows just fine, That wasn't the real dd.
Like I said, WW wasn't in DOS.

Are you trying to troll me?

Originally posted by Arabus
Maxima is fast enough to deal with Wonder Woman if they were to duke it out.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, Maxima's appearance in 'Action Comics 651' already puts her reaction times in the right ballpark.

Superman's thought balloon says, "I come to investigate an explosion, and I find something rocketing aloft -- at escape velocity".

- That something is Sazu being TK-piloted into orbit, with Maxima following.
- Superman uses his super-speed to fly past Maxima and loop back so that he's charging her from the front.
- As they are about to intercept one another, Maxima is fast enough to perceive the right moment to grab Superman's arm and judo-throw him back in the direction that he came from.

As Superman approaches street-level from being thrown, he recovers and his word balloon says, "She's certainly strong, and fast ! This reminds me of my first encounter with the Matrix." This is in reference to 'Superman 21' where Clark was being pursued by Matrix Supergirl in the clouds. Superman sensed that he was being followed from behind so he used his super-speed to fly up, over, and back down in a loop to get behind Matrix Supergirl -- eventually, catching her by the ankle.

Once Superman flies up back to within reach of Maxima far above Metropolis, she zips around him and says, "Can you catch me Superman? Do try! I have waited so long for this -- do not disappoint me!"

"Remarkable." reads Superman's thought balloon.

Do you think we are stupid and blind? Superman wasn't moving when she grabbed him and through him (or at least trying to talk to her).
Flying at escape velocity is not combat speed (perception speed and limb speed). Escape velocity is a statue when it comes to the speed of light.

Maxima zipping around is a speed feat but it's not quantifiable. Is she moving bullet speed, rocket speed, etc? WW has light speed perceptions and limb movement speed. WW is far faster than Maxima. WW has a sword that can end the fight with one strike. WW has a lasso too.

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9
Maxima is more of a brawler than anything and is she on average portrayed at those levels? There's no way she is holding Diana in place and taking her out, especially with the speed gap here.

Diana has outright blitzed Amazo on more than one occasion. Blitzed Zoom, tagged Flash, too fast for Amazo to hit. The speed gap between these 2 is HUGE. A more solid argument can be made of Diana tying Maxima up than Maxima holding Diana in place with TK... example

Diana ties Amazo up before he could finish a though or react...

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/zI3P5

She out reacts Amazo again...

https://ibb.co/sKr69TN

And again...

https://ibb.co/VTHVqVC

I can post her doing the same to Supergirl and Superman if you want.

So?
Maxima has blitzed Supes too.

I'd be a lot more interested innthebscanof WW Aledgedly blitzing Zoom. Yeah show us that scan

carver9

Originally posted by beatboks
So?
Maxima has blitzed Supes too.

I'd be a lot more interested innthebscanof WW Aledgedly blitzing Zoom. Yeah show us that scan

Sigh... the scan i posted that you're quoting outright said Amazo have the speed of the Flash and Diana not only blitzed him before he could react, she blitzed him and tied up his entire upper half before he could complete a sentence in his mind. Maxima can't match that. Then we have her in my other scans tying up Amazo, the same Amazo where she said this (read who she say he is faster then)

https://i0.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-3.jpg?ssl=1

He couldn't touch her...

https://i1.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-1.jpg?ssl=1

She blitz him...

https://i2.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-6.jpg?ssl=1

Couldn't touch her.

https://i1.wp.com/3.bp.blogspot.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/SI8xKpHHObI/AAAAAAAAHX4/WQF8nRsfZCU/s1600-h/Justice+League+of+America+23-3.jpg

There's no way you think Maxima is as fast as Diana. You don't believe it.

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9
Sigh... the scan i posted that you're quoting outright said Amazo have the speed of the Flash and Diana not only blitzed him before he could react, she blitzed him and tied up his entire upper half before he could complete a sentence in his mind. Maxima can't match that. Then we have her in my other scans tying up Amazo, the same Amazo where she said this (read who she say he is faster then)

https://i0.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-3.jpg?ssl=1

He couldn't touch her...

https://i1.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-1.jpg?ssl=1

She blitz him...

https://i2.wp.com/comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Wonder-Woman-VS-Amazo-Justice-League-of-America-Vol.-2-24-6.jpg?ssl=1

Couldn't touch her.

https://i1.wp.com/3.bp.blogspot.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/SI8xKpHHObI/AAAAAAAAHX4/WQF8nRsfZCU/s1600-h/Justice+League+of+America+23-3.jpg

There's no way you think Maxima is as fast as Diana. You don't believe it.

So you don't have the scan I asked for?

I never asked for scan of Amazo dude. Don't give a crap about Amazo because he is never shown outspeeding flash or anyone even with "their speed". Just because he has a power doesn't mean he uses it the same.

I replied to a post of yours where you said WW had blitzed ZOOM. That is the guy that even when Wally West was amped by speed from both Jay and Barry he couldn't even perceive moving.

I want to see this aledged scan of WW blitzing zolomon.

So SIGH yourself

carver9

Originally posted by beatboks
So you don't have the scan I asked for?

I never asked for scan of Amazo dude. Don't give a crap about Amazo because he is never shown outspeeding flash or anyone even with "their speed". Just because he has a power doesn't mean he uses it the same.

I replied to a post of yours where you said WW had blitzed ZOOM. That is the guy that even when Wally West was amped by speed from both Jay and Barry he couldn't even perceive moving.

I want to see this aledged scan of WW blitzing zolomon.

So SIGH yourself

Blitz Zoom...

https://ibb.co/NZk2z3Q

Tie him up...

https://ibb.co/C01sYtt

Also, when Amazo have his speed, lol, he does use it. Here he blotz both Superman and Flash.

https://comicnewbies.com/2020/11/02/superman-and-the-flash-vs-amazo/amp/

And again, Amazo under this same writer, under the same arc, had Flash speed when Wonder Woman tied him up.

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9
Blitz Zoom...

https://ibb.co/NZk2z3Q

Tie him up...

https://ibb.co/C01sYtt

Also, when Amazo have his speed, lol, he does use it. Here he blotz both Superman and Flash.

https://comicnewbies.com/2020/11/02/superman-and-the-flash-vs-amazo/amp/

And again, Amazo under this same writer, under the same arc, had Flash speed when Wonder Woman tied him up.
So no "blitz" of Zoom then as you started.
Tagging him because he didn't expect her to be able to perceive him isn't a blitź.

I also never said Amazo doesn't use speed Carv, I said he doesn't use it the same as Flash. Amazo doesn't ever show huge reaction speed. He has failed to dodge many JLAers who don't even have super speed

To prove that he downstairs the power the same as Flash here are some other images from the JLA #6 the WW lassoing Amazo scan is from.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LeeLUGaoOLA/VuJ1KAl89OI/AAAAAAAAKB8/JKbNou5XLe8ZAd-x9GMVL2jNCCtI-qkoACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO013.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WbsbXgxa0OA/VuJ1KDQLvNI/AAAAAAAAKB8/qxL4EFFNNEs8nFZXjb0NSMvfscs9H8YSQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO014_w.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Rq87oV0CLs/VuJ1KgnKh_I/AAAAAAAAKB8/ffz6_Ccxkv0RZ_uBkLYUySOWy5HD1ni3ACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO016.jpg

So I guess Hawkgirl, Red Arrow and Vixen are all faster than Flash now
😄

h1a8

Beatboks but my point still stands. WW has FTL perceptions and arm movement speed. Maxima maximum speed is escape velocity (and that's not from a standstill position). Maximum has really no perception speed or Reflex fears.

The evidence points to WW being quicker on the draw.

carver9

Originally posted by beatboks
So no "blitz" of Zoom then as you started.
Tagging him because he didn't expect her to be able to perceive him isn't a blitź.

I also never said Amazo doesn't use speed Carv, I said he doesn't use it the same as Flash. Amazo doesn't ever show huge reaction speed. He has failed to dodge many JLAers who don't even have super speed

To prove that he downstairs the power the same as Flash here are some other images from the JLA #6 the WW lassoing Amazo scan is from.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LeeLUGaoOLA/VuJ1KAl89OI/AAAAAAAAKB8/JKbNou5XLe8ZAd-x9GMVL2jNCCtI-qkoACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO013.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WbsbXgxa0OA/VuJ1KDQLvNI/AAAAAAAAKB8/qxL4EFFNNEs8nFZXjb0NSMvfscs9H8YSQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO014_w.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Rq87oV0CLs/VuJ1KgnKh_I/AAAAAAAAKB8/ffz6_Ccxkv0RZ_uBkLYUySOWy5HD1ni3ACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO016.jpg

So I guess Hawkgirl, Red Arrow and Vixen are all faster than Flash now
😄

He was looking right at her, lol and she tagged him before he could react. That is a blitz.

Lol... different writer, different book and Flash gets tagged all of the time, so he doesn't use his speed either? Hell, Nightwing has tied Flash up during mid blitz. Batman has hit metal Dogs when Flash couldn't. Gorilla Grodd, Solomon Grundy, Titus, and Konvikt has tagged Flash. Let me guess, he doesn't have speed as well?

You also posted scans of him getting shot in the back but under the same breath say that Zoom was caught off guard. You also posted an amped Vixen who stole power and speed from JLA members damaging Amazo.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111287654/5860184-3003806615-57878.jpg

Youre better than this beatbox...

Also, I guess Superman was holding back when he fought Maxima. Here he blitz TF out of her and then treats her like fodder afterwards...

https://ibb.co/4V9TXzN
https://ibb.co/60KwHCK

Arabus

Originally posted by h1a8

Superman wasn't moving when she grabbed him and through him (or at least trying to talk to her).

?
Superman is clearly looping back and flying at her in the panel before she grabs him. Again, Superman pulled a similar super-speed loop back in 'Superman 21' that Clark remembers when he encountered Matrix Supergirl. The difference this time is that Superman is on the receiving end of being tagged, and he says, "She's certainly strong, and fast!"

Originally posted by h1a8

Flying at escape velocity is not combat speed (perception speed and limb speed).

If Maxima didn't have the commensurate combat speed (perception speed and limb speed) to go with her travel speed in this instance, she would have just plowed into Superman.

Originally posted by h1a8

Escape velocity is a statue when it comes to the speed of light.

The Wonder Woman that I think Maxima should be able to take out is the one that went up against Superman in 'Wonder Woman 219'. Max Lord tricked Superman into thinking that he was Doomsday. No sooner had Wonder Woman barely had the chance to block Superman's heat vision than Superman was flying away with her at speed with his hands at her throat. There's a sonic boom, and just as she watches the world recede behind them, she realizes that he's going to toss her into the sun.

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9

Lol... different writer, different book and Flash gets tagged all of the time, so he doesn't use his speed either? Hell, Nightwing has tied Flash up during mid blitz. Batman has hit metal Dogs when Flash couldn't. Gorilla Grodd, Solomon Grundy, Titus, and Konvikt has tagged Flash. Let me guess, he doesn't have speed as well?

You also posted scans of him getting shot in the back but under the same breath say that Zoom was caught off guard. You also posted an amped Vixen who stole power and speed from JLA members damaging Amazo.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111287654/5860184-3003806615-57878.jpg

Youre better than this beatbox...

Also, I guess Superman was holding back when he fought Maxima. Here he blitz TF out of her and then treats her like fodder afterwards...

https://ibb.co/4V9TXzN
https://ibb.co/60KwHCK

It wasn't a different book let alone writer. It was from the EXACT same issue that your wonder woman roping him scan was from.

Totally missing the point I see. Amazo let HG hit him, he didn't even move to DODGE Vixen (who BTW wasnt shown using great speed).he has super hearing and the senses of all the league yet does nothing to avoid Red Arrow's arrow. He has speed but he isn't worried about damage so doesn't react to avoid it. Superman is often the same. Flash doesn't have their damage soak, the way he reacts to things is different as those very same things can do a LOT of damage to his normal human durability.

Zoom is a character that holds back all the time. He wants it to be a contestant and to test the heroes. He had no reason to even believe Diana could even perceive him as he could tell she was blind. It even states it in writing on panel, WW explained she was blind but not deaf AFTER she struck him. It his CIS, not a faster than Zoom feat. Just like all those FLASH tags are. None are meant to be an example of x faster than Flash.

Tagging someone isn't a blitź, a blitź would have finished the fight before they could react. That fight wasn't finished.

beatboks

Also Carv, the scans you have of Maxima vs Supes in that last post. You do realize she was also psionically evacuating her entire race while fighting him, right?

A pretty big part of her focus was not on the fight at all and she was trying to reason with him and explain at the time.

What's next scans of her simulcrums getting beaten (simulcrums that don't have all her powers to their normal level- like in extreme Justice where a simulacrum is cut in half by a sword where Maxima is normally impervious

Stoic

Originally posted by beatboks
Doomsday was in WW 111, and 112 , but of course we just ignore any feats that we dont like, or claim they are something different

Thank you.

Sin I AM

I think that in character and full capacity blurs the argument

carver9

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think that in character and full capacity blurs the argument

Basically. One of them needs to go because you can easily mention in-character but then someone would just throw out "they get to fight to the best of their abilities". Crazy thing is, fighting to the best of their abilities only applies to certain characters on KMC. Imagine debating powerset with Silver Surfer.

carver9

People/person thrive to post this from that thread... this goes completely against CIS.

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

But again, this only applies to certain characters. Example, I can't use the above for Hulk. A full capacity Hulk IS WBH, so he receive limitations whereas other characters completely benefit from "full capacity".

beatboks

Originally posted by carver9
For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.

I have never seen that assumed by anyone who wasn't trolling except in threads where he is blood lusted. What is assumed (and should be) is that because flash has perceptions that perceive things slowly he can react to things no matter how fast they are and DODGE attacks. The only reason this wouldn't be the case is CIS.

I don't expect in a fight that the flash would go for the kill instantly or take everyone down instantly it's not how it operates in character. But when it's fact he certainly has the perceptions and the ability to react to not get hit Kim getting hit is pure PIS or CIS.

The same applies for other characters Superman for example isn't going to blitz and take someone out instantly it's simply not how he operates. but taking his operating at full capacity means he can react better than he often does in comics except of course when he reacts slowly because he simply expects to be able to tank it. This for example is why you don't argue that Black Adam uses speed to Blitz people Black Adam wants to prove his superiority he wants to prove they can't do s*** to him. For example when atom smasher punched him through the ceiling of the JSA HQ. He had assumed having just arm wrestle him he wasn't a threat news going to show just how little of Freddy was he didn't realise atom smasher can alter his molecular density making his punches a greater blow than just his strength would.

In this particular battle Maxima has feats that are not far behind Diana's for Speed. she has fought with characters on that tier and reacted enough that operating her for capacity and operating to win a fight she should react reasonably closely to what Diana's movements can be. She does enter battles a lot of the time with raised TK shields that would preclude most of the arguments being given for WW.

That's the part I don't get. Those saying WW will blitź and Lasso are just ignoring the fact that Maxima enters around 40% of fights with a raised TK shields bubble around her (as she had months scans I loaded from action 651 in her first real appearance vs Superman). Speed doesn't get thru a TK shields.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think that in character and full capacity blurs the argument

It blurs it, yes, but only if we don't know the characters.
Originally posted by carver9
Basically. One of them needs to go because you can easily mention in-character but then someone would just throw out "they get to fight to the best of their abilities". Crazy thing is, fighting to the best of their abilities only applies to certain characters on KMC. Imagine debating powerset with Silver Surfer.

No, because as always, you don't understand the rules.

Best of their abilities =/= powerset debating, no matter how many time this has been explained to you.

Powerset debating = Flash eats his opponent alive at superspeed.
In character but to the best of their abilities = Flash doesn't let himself get hit if he can help it.

krisblaze

Kudos to Carter for repping Diana.

Nvr thought he would do it.

-Pr-

...Yeah, I mean, beatboks and DS kinda hit the nail on the head. If further clarification is needed though, I'm willing to offer further explanation.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Kudos to Carter for repping Diana.

Nvr thought he would do it.

laughing out loud

h1a8

Originally posted by Stoic
Thank you.

I addressed that. That wasn't DD but a clone. You know it's trolling to ignore evidence right?

h1a8

Originally posted by Arabus
?
Superman is clearly looping back and flying at her in the panel before she grabs him. Again, Superman pulled a similar super-speed loop back in 'Superman 21' that Clark remembers when he encountered Matrix Supergirl. The difference this time is that Superman is on the receiving end of being tagged, and he says, "She's certainly strong, and fast!"

If Maxima didn't have the commensurate combat speed (perception speed and limb speed) to go with her travel speed in this instance, she would have just plowed into Superman.

The Wonder Woman that I think Maxima should be able to take out is the one that went up against Superman in 'Wonder Woman 219'. Max Lord tricked Superman into thinking that he was Doomsday. No sooner had Wonder Woman barely had the chance to block Superman's heat vision than Superman was flying away with her at speed with his hands at her throat. There's a sonic boom, and just as she watches the world recede behind them, she realizes that he's going to toss her into the sun.

Wrong! Superman isn't moving. Maxima slows down so Superman stops and tries to talk to her. Even if Superman was moving, it is not very fast. You can clearly see Superman trying to talk to her.

I never claimed that Maxima wasn't faster than a human. But there are infinite levels of Super speed. WW can react, perceive, and move limbs at the speed of light. Escape velocity isn't even 1% the speed of light. Having super speed doesn't grant immunity to ALL levels of superspeed.

Zoom was moving, minimum, at near light speed when WW lassoed him. That shit was impressive as hell. Far more impressive than anything Maxima did.

WW onced traveled to the other side of the Earth in an instant before.

WW has blocked light speed attacks multiple times.

h1a8

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think that in character and full capacity blurs the argument

It's fairly easy as Pr pointed out.
We look at a character's intelligence and character.
A character isn't not going refrain from using a part of their power set that they used lots of times in comics if they believe they will lose if they don't.

Full capacity refers to a character trying their best to win, not trying to lose, not choosing to refrain from powers that they believe is the only way to win.

Members need to show that a character would believe (based off that character's intelligence and showings that support) that they would lose if they don't employ particular abilities.

Some abilities are always on (strength, durability, perception speed, etc). and doesn't depend on a character's choice.

Other abilities do though (I.e. choosing to blast over melee).

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by -Pr-
...Yeah, I mean, beatboks and DS kinda hit the nail on the head. If further clarification is needed though, I'm willing to offer further explanation.

laughing out loud

ShadowFyre

What really amazes me if this was a ww vs. marvel thread people would be playing up her speed all day, but here it gets downplayed

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
What really amazes me if this was a ww vs. marvel thread people would be playing up her speed all day, but here it gets downplayed

People? Only beatboks is?

carver9

I see some posts in here that I have to own, outright rip to shreds. Let's get these scans ready.

beatboks

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
People? Only beatboks is?

How am I downlplaying her speed by simply acknowledging Maxima is in the same speed tier? WW has the better reaction speed, in travel speed they are pretty damn even (especially when Maamps her physicals psionically like she can).

The gap between them simply isn't enough for WW to win purely on speed. If Maxima didnt have the superior durability, equal strength, equal combat skill and a dozen other powers (some of which are a hard counter to speed) then it would. Cheetah has superior speed to Diana but always looses to her.

If this battle were WW VS Jessie Quick where the slight speed edge goes to Jessie, I wouldn't give it to Jessie based purely on speed because of the massive gap WW has on her in so many other areas. Just lile I wouldnt give a battle between WW and Powergirl to WW based purely on speed. In that instance WW has a clear vombat speed advanrage (while well behind in travel) but the gap she has in strength and durability is too great a devide to overcome.

Stoic

Originally posted by h1a8
I addressed that. That wasn't DD but a clone. You know it's trolling to ignore evidence right?

Were there Doomsday clones in existence during the time of DoS?

celeyhyga17

Originally posted by carver9
I see some posts in here that I have to own, outright rip to shreds. Let's get these scans ready.

Thats right!
Carver about to go Sabertooth on ya'll.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5e9b4ed500052959e27e46f616270fbd/tenor.gif

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8

Zoom was moving, minimum, at near light speed when WW lassoed him. That shit was impressive as hell. Far more impressive than anything Maxima did.

WW has blocked light speed attacks multiple times.

Zoom moved a gew feet.
He did so to dodge the rock WW kicked.
She kicked that rock because she needed him to move to know his location.
She was blind and couldnt see him. And he wasnt moving for her to hear and had stopped talking.
He moved only as far as he needed to to DODGE the rock. If he'd moved more than there would have been more than those few images a half foot to foot apart.

Surely you didn't miss that obvious a plot point.
She also succeeded because he allowed it. We know this because the instant she took him back to Flash and Cheetah he was free from the lasso as soon as he wanted (which he could have done at any time.

Zoom's perceptions make an Amped Wally look slow to him. Any tagging of Zoom isn't a speed feat for the taggerits a CIS moment for Zoom, because if he was operating at the height of his powers he simply wouldn't get touched, EVER.

That's why when she tagged him people saying it's a Blitz is such a laugh if a man walking around with a blind man's cane suddenly lift his hand at me am I going to expect an attack and get my face or body out of the way no I'm going to think he's feeling around for a wall

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
Zoom moved a gew feet.
He did so to dodge the rock WW kicked.
She kicked that rock because she needed him to move to know his location.
She was blind and couldnt see him. And he wasnt moving for her to hear and had stopped talking.
He moved only as far as he needed to to DODGE the rock. If he'd moved more than there would have been more than those few images a half foot to foot apart.

Surely you didn't miss that obvious a plot point.
She also succeeded because he allowed it. We know this because the instant she took him back to Flash and Cheetah he was free from the lasso as soon as he wanted (which he could have done at any time.

Zoom's perceptions make an Amped Wally look slow to him. Any tagging of Zoom isn't a speed feat for the taggerits a CIS moment for Zoom, because if he was operating at the height of his powers he simply wouldn't get touched, EVER.

That's why when she tagged him people saying it's a Blitz is such a laugh if a man walking around with a blind man's cane suddenly lift his hand at me am I going to expect an attack and get my face or body out of the way no I'm going to think he's feeling around for a wall

What are you talking about? Zoom was most likely moving far in excess of light speed (minimum near light speed). He was moving to create at least 3 independent after images (they were all doing different shit).

That implies that his perceptions were operating at light speed or better. He basically was operating at Metroman perceptions when WW lassoed him.

Downplay the feat all you want. It still is significantly greater than anything Maxima has done speed wise.

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8
What are you talking about? Zoom was most likely moving far in excess of light speed (minimum near light speed). He was moving to create at least 3 independent after images (they were all doing different shit).

That implies that his perceptions were operating at light speed or better. He basically was operating at Metroman perceptions when WW lassoed him.

Downplay the feat all you want. It still is significantly greater than anything Maxima has done speed wise.

Dude Zoom doesn't have speed, he doesn't move physically at all. His connection to the normal time line is elastic and he can alter his comparative movement thru time.
https://m.imgur.com/5Eaeebo

When he is walking at a crawl he can still appear as multiple images. Fact is just to talk to a normal human he has to slow his comparative time line.

https://m.imgur.com/emghvMa

or as a shimmer When he is completely stationary.
https://m.imgur.com/qrvqoD6

Seeing multiple images of him doesn't mean he's moving fast. in his first appearance after the accident that gave him his powers he was appearing in multiple places and it stated on panel he wasn't moving. I'll hunt up the issue to show the scan s but there are a lot more images than you see in WW 214 and it stated he's stationary.

Wally has explained it as him snapping in and out of the time line.

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
Dude Zoom doesn't have speed, he doesn't move physically at all. His connection to the normal time line is elastic and he can alter his comparative movement thru time.
https://m.imgur.com/5Eaeebo

When he is walking at a crawl he can still appear as multiple images. Fact is just to talk to a normal human he has to slow his comparative time line.

https://m.imgur.com/emghvMa

or as a shimmer When he is completely stationary.
https://m.imgur.com/qrvqoD6

Seeing multiple images of him doesn't mean he's moving fast. in his first appearance after the accident that gave him his powers he was appearing in multiple places and it stated on panel he wasn't moving. I'll hunt up the issue to show the scan s but there are a lot more images than you see in WW 214 and it stated he's stationary.

Wally has explained it as him snapping in and out of the time line.

Zoom is the very definition of Metroman. He literally slows down time where everything appears frozen or slowed down. .

In reference to WW he was moving at near light speed and had light speed perceptions at that particular time.

Seeing multiple images of him does mean he is moving fast (in relation to others). How else would be in those different locations without moving?
You are making no sense. Your arguments are getting silly now.

Stoic

Originally posted by h1a8
I addressed that. That wasn't DD but a clone. You know it's trolling to ignore evidence right?

Originally posted by Stoic
Were there Doomsday clones in existence during the time of DoS?

Anyone? beatboks, can you answer this?

DarkSaint85

I didn't think there were any clones at that time.

Stoic

beatboks, you're wasting your time on this guy. You can bring forth hundreds of citations worth of evidence, and h1 will attempt to refute them because he has serious ego issues. You posted Zooms powers and it still has yet to penetrate.

Stoic

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I didn't think there were any clones at that time.

Me neither.

abhilegend

Doomsday in WW 110-112 was a simulcrum created by a video game. H1 is right in a way.

carver9

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8
Zoom is the very definition of Metroman. He literally slows down time where everything appears frozen or slowed down. .

In reference to WW he was moving at near light speed and had light speed perceptions at that particular time.
Seeing multiple images of him does mean he is moving fast (in relation to others). How else would be in those different locations without moving?
You are making no sense. Your arguments are getting silly now.

Even when zoom is moving at slow speed he is in multiple locations his link to time is tenuous and elastic he pops in and out of time the fact is he was holding a conversation with Wonder Woman and he can't do that if he's moving at the speed you're talking about it's just impossible his words would be undiscernible.
Even Flash can't understand him if he doesn't slow his perception

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F3NwcVB2PSM/VnvGGV4BKNI/AAAAAAAADGo/3IWu3QL6iEU/s1600-Ic42/RCO021.jpg

If he doesn't slow his relative time rate WW couldn't possibly understand what he was saying to her. To BA able to talk to her his movement and reaction has to be vastly below light speed

TGATES

https://i.imgur.com/L92LCfX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UWCItpS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k1usVON.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UvqY9IC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2kDX4tA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XBfS3pC.jpg

TGATES

https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.WqA8~2eefa/w:588/h:451/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Wonder-Woman-47-Art.jpg
https://www.the-medium-is-not-enough.com/images/2018/05/WW47_6-678x904.png
https://www.the-medium-is-not-enough.com/images/2018/05/WW47_5-678x509.png
https://www.the-medium-is-not-enough.com/images/2018/05/WW47_7-678x904.png

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
Even when zoom is moving at slow speed he is in multiple locations his link to time is tenuous and elastic he pops in and out of time the fact is he was holding a conversation with Wonder Woman and he can't do that if he's moving at the speed you're talking about it's just impossible his words would be undiscernible.
Even Flash can't understand him if he doesn't slow his perception

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F3NwcVB2PSM/VnvGGV4BKNI/AAAAAAAADGo/3IWu3QL6iEU/s1600-Ic42/RCO021.jpg

If he doesn't slow his relative time rate WW couldn't possibly understand what he was saying to her. To BA able to talk to her his movement and reaction has to be vastly below light speed

What are you talking about? No where did you show that Zoom is in multiple locations simultaneously. He appears that way because he is moving to those different locations on purpose. Zoom doesn't control space but TIME. Zoom can only slow or speed up time. He doesn't teleport.

In fiction, talking while being in super speed mode is possible. It happens all the time. In Flash (tv show) we see reverse flash moving so fast that we see two separate beings. One (the doctor) is talking while the other (in reverse flash costume) is pretending to be in a containment field.

Flash has several times talked to people while still able to perceive shit in slow motion.

beatboks

Originally posted by h1a8
What are you talking about? No where did you show that Zoom is in multiple locations simultaneously. He appears that way because he is moving to those different locations on purpose. Zoom doesn't control space but TIME. Zoom can only slow or speed up time. He doesn't teleport.

In fiction, talking while being in super speed mode is possible. It happens all the time. In Flash (tv show) we see reverse flash moving so fast that we see two separate beings. One (the doctor) is talking while the other (in reverse flash costume) is pretending to be in a containment field.

Flash has several times talked to people while still able to perceive shit in slow motion.

OMG Dude. Innthebscans where WW is facing Zoom he is talkimg to her. Zoom doesn't have speed he is at an altered time rate. His comparative rate at base is vastly greater. In FLASH 197/198 when he gets his powers he basically knocks over a glass of water on his bedside table (in hospital) and thinks a bit, walks out of the room looks around a bit and realized it's still the same second with time unmoved and his glass still on a slight angle not more than a drop spilt after doing all that.

At this default comparative rate when he speaks it isnindepherable to anyone (including Flash who can hold a conversation with other speedster in a picosecond). Basically at his default we would barelynhear a sound at all. Even Wally can't work out what he's saying in this state (as per the scan I just showed). In a previous post I posted a scan from the next issue where he said it was difficult to alter his perception so he could talk and Linda understand him. He was still a novice in his power then.

What shows Zoom's actual speeding the images because he pops in and out of time. Each single step can be another image. The more jumbled the letters in his speech balloons the faster comparatively he is going.

If WW can understand what he is saying and he's talking (which he was) he can't be at the comparative rate your saying he is. If his comparative rate is that high then he would speak a sentence and would be perceived by WW as a few letters only

h1a8

Originally posted by beatboks
OMG Dude. Innthebscans where WW is facing Zoom he is talkimg to her. Zoom doesn't have speed he is at an altered time rate. His comparative rate at base is vastly greater. In FLASH 197/198 when he gets his powers he basically knocks over a glass of water on his bedside table (in hospital) and thinks a bit, walks out of the room looks around a bit and realized it's still the same second with time unmoved and his glass still on a slight angle not more than a drop spilt after doing all that.

At this default comparative rate when he speaks it isnindepherable to anyone (including Flash who can hold a conversation with other speedster in a picosecond). Basically at his default we would barelynhear a sound at all. Even Wally can't work out what he's saying in this state (as per the scan I just showed). In a previous post I posted a scan from the next issue where he said it was difficult to alter his perception so he could talk and Linda understand him. He was still a novice in his power then.

What shows Zoom's actual speeding the images because he pops in and out of time. Each single step can be another image. The more jumbled the letters in his speech balloons the faster comparatively he is going.

If WW can understand what he is saying and he's talking (which he was) he can't be at the comparative rate your saying he is. If his comparative rate is that high then he would speak a sentence and would be perceived by WW as a few letters only

Basically you have no proof that Zoom teleports or pops in an out of time. You are just making stuff up.
No where in comics state this. Your speculation is not proof.

We clearly see Zoom using speed to create after images of himself

It's been explained to you the inconsistency of fiction of speedsters talking in normal speed while still perceiving things as a statue.

Even if Zoom is popping in and out of time then the feat is still vastly superior to anything Maxima has done. This is because we literally see at least 3 Zooms. He is popping in an out at such a fast rate that we see multiple Zooms simultaneously.

DarkSaint85

Zoom has his own timeline. He's not fast per se, as per his original appearance.

This is why Flash could never steal his speed.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Zoom has his own timeline. He's not fast per se, as per his original appearance.

This is why Flash could never steal his speed.

Exactly. Beatboks is trying to claim that Zoom teleports in an out of existence instead of just slowing down his time.

DarkSaint85

Yeah he just controls time and the rate at which it flows.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah he just controls time and the rate at which it flows. Exactly

Arabus

Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong! Superman isn't moving. Maxima slows down so Superman stops and tries to talk to her. Even if Superman was moving, it is not very fast. You can clearly see Superman trying to talk to her.

The art does not support what you are saying about Maxima complying with Superman's demands at all. In the panel where Superman tells Maxima 'Stop! I want a word with you!":

- Maxima's limbs remain stretched straight back behind her in the direction of her energy trail and speed lines.
- Maxima is in the exact same aerodynamic pose from two panels earlier with the same energy trail and speed lines behind her.
- Superman's legs are stretched straight back behind him.
- The vector of Superman's motion trail intercepts with Maxima.
- Superman's flight trail clearly shows that he sped past her and looped back towards Maxima head on.
- Superman's fists are out in front just as they are out in front in the previous panel before he passes her.

Originally posted by h1a8

I never claimed that Maxima wasn't faster than a human. But there are infinite levels of Super speed. WW can react, perceive, and move limbs at the speed of light. Escape velocity isn't even 1% the speed of light. Having super speed doesn't grant immunity to ALL levels of super-speed.

This is a straw-man. You were under the illusion that an out-of-context argument was being made to conflate flying at escape velocity with combat speed (perception speed and limb speed). From the very beginning, my position has been that Maxima's flight speed is in the escape velocity ballpark when she is being intercepted by Superman coming straight at her. Therefore, given those travel speeds, if she didn't have the commensurate reaction time to perform the grab right before impact as the art illustrates, she would have just plowed into Superman way up above Metropolis.

Moreover, just as he approaches street-level, Superman recovers from the judo-throw and hearkens back to the time when he used his super-speed and tagged Matrix Supergirl from behind in 'Superman 21', thinking, "She's strong, and fast!". Maxima's speed feat in 'Action Comics 651' that triggers Clark's memory is better because she catches Superman from the front.

Also, since you often seem to bring up Zoom as some sort of benchmark, that story with Wonder Woman and Zoom -- you could easily swap out Diana and have Hunter try and make Maxima a better hero and it would be just as plausible. Wonder Woman's warrior training that is sometimes used as a comic book reason for her to catch a super-speedster with more raw speed than her wouldn't be an advantage against Maxima. Maxima is an actual warlord who sits at the apex of a vast intergalactic empire. If you want, you could even put a blindfold over Maxima's eyes too.

h1a8

Originally posted by Arabus
The art does not support what you are saying about Maxima complying with Superman's demands at all. In the panel where Superman tells Maxima 'Stop! I want a word with you!":

- Maxima's limbs remain stretched straight back behind her in the direction of her energy trail and speed lines.
- Maxima is in the exact same aerodynamic pose from two panels earlier with the same energy trail and speed lines behind her.
- Superman's legs are stretched straight back behind him.
- The vector of Superman's motion trail intercepts with Maxima.
- Superman's flight trail clearly shows that he sped past her and looped back towards Maxima head on.
- Superman's fists are out in front just as they are out in front in the previous panel before he passes her.

Ok she was still moving. I was looking at the panel where she said, "But I take orders from no one!"

Ok Let's assume it was at escape velocity (which requires proof). You are basically trying to prove that she has superhuman reflexes and perceptions. I'll finish my argument after your next quote below. My argument appears to be a strawman only because you misunderstand it. When I argued that Maxima has "superhuman" speed and then argued "different levels of superspeed", that implied commensurate perceptions and reactions. Why did I have to say that last part for you to understand? Maybe I should word things more carefully for you. That way you don't nitpick at my argument and ignore the spirit of what I'm trying to say.

Bottomline: Having the perception and reactions to act at escape velocity (assumingly the speed she was moving) is not even 0.01% the perception and reactions to act at light speed.

Your fallacy lies when you prove that Maxima has superspeed (do I have to add commensurate perceptions and reactions lol) and assume that it grants immunity to all levels of superspeed. You basically ignored the whole spirit of my argument over some nitpicky stuff. Not cool mad

Character's don't get other character's feats without comparable feats of their own. Anything can happen in a comic, even Maxima tagging Zoom while he is moving at lightspeed. But since it didn't' happen then Maxima doesn't get that ability.

As it stands, WW is astronomically faster than Maxima and would have the greatest chance, of the two, to land the first significant attack.