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Off the top of my head:

List is not in any particular order.

1. Living Tribunal
2. Scathan
3. Protege
4. Beyonder
5. Molecule Man
6. God Doom
7. Akhenaten with HOTI
8. Thanos with HOTI
9. Thanos with Regulator

Maybe 616 Jaspers, Marquis of Death.

Any others?

Superman

Cosmic Armor Superman and maybe Superman Prime One Million.

No no, normal Superman.

What about Hulk?

Originally posted by wxyz
What about Hulk?

Any one of those type of characters would eat the IG.

Hulk can't even lift it.

Originally posted by wxyz
Off the top of my head:

List is not in any particular order.

1. Living Tribunal
2. Scathan
3. Protege
4. Beyonder
5. Molecule Man
6. God Doom
7. Akhenaten with HOTI
8. Thanos with HOTI
9. Thanos with Regulator

Maybe 616 Jaspers, Marquis of Death.

Any others? Good List

Batman.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Any one of those type of characters would eat the IG.
Yup. Comic companies need to tone down the power creep because when an item that makes you completely omnipotent in a given reality is no longer considered the end all/be all, we got problems.

Originally posted by wxyz
Off the top of my head:

List is not in any particular order.

1. Living Tribunal
2. Scathan
3. Protege
4. Beyonder
5. Molecule Man
6. God Doom
7. Akhenaten with HOTI
8. Thanos with HOTI
9. Thanos with Regulator

Maybe 616 Jaspers, Marquis of Death.

Any others?

Protege is overrated. He allegedly duplicated the powers of the Living Tribunal and based on that decided to call himself The One Above All (although he duplicates powers based on witnessing them in use and he never witnessed TOAA showing that declaration was false)

Protege however never did anything feat wise to show that he had actually managed to duplicate LT's power, (he only assumed a similar form)

Further placing doubt on the matter is he was then defeated by a single Celestial

But bafflingly instead of using that incident to say Proteges claims were exaggerated/false, people elevate this random Celestial to LT levels based on paper thin evidence.

It just doesn't hold up.

As for number 4, do you mean The Beyonders as in the cumulative power of the entire race? The Beyonder entity alone by canon would be below the Abstracts and on the same rung as Galactus/The Celestials

616 Jaspers never displayed anywhere near the power of the IG. He did a global scale reality warp that was said to have the potential to expand and become a threat to the omniverse. But thats in a similar manner to how a fire started within a garbage can if left unchecked could grow and take out a house and even a row of houses. Jaspers would go on to be dispatched by a single Fury. We never got to see if Jaspers could reach such potential.

Tellingly, Jim Jaspers never made it on to the official list of omega mutants. Why? Because he is not the most powerful reality warper in his class. Franklin Richards outdoes him

Molecule Man (before the Beyonder power was used for the recreation of multiverse)
God Doom
HOTI
LT
Phoenix Consciousness
Multi-Eternity
White Phoenix of the Crown
Marquis of Death

I haven't included the Beyonders as they are a race as opposed to an individual.
I also haven't included any out of continuity/retconned characters as that wouldn't make sense.

Didn't you die?

Originally posted by Astner
Didn't you die?

Back from the ashes b***h!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Protege is overrated. He allegedly duplicated the powers of the Living Tribunal and based on that decided to call himself The One Above All (although he duplicates powers based on witnessing them in use and he never witnessed TOAA showing that declaration was false)

Protege however never did anything feat wise to show that he had actually managed to duplicate LT's power, (he only assumed a similar form)

Further placing doubt on the matter is he was then defeated by a single Celestial

But bafflingly instead of using that incident to say Proteges claims were exaggerated/false, people elevate this random Celestial to LT levels based on paper thin evidence.

It just doesn't hold up.

As for number 4, do you mean The Beyonders as in the cumulative power of the entire race? The Beyonder entity alone by canon would be below the Abstracts and on the same rung as Galactus/The Celestials

616 Jaspers never displayed anywhere near the power of the IG. He did a global scale reality warp that was said to have the potential to expand and become a threat to the omniverse. But thats in a similar manner to how a fire started within a garbage can if left unchecked could grow and take out a house and even a row of houses. Jaspers would go on to be dispatched by a single Fury. We never got to see if Jaspers could reach such potential.

Tellingly, Jim Jaspers never made it on to the official list of omega mutants. Why? Because he is not the most powerful reality warper in his class. Franklin Richards outdoes him
OMFG, GS! Dude how've you been? And Welcome back btw. <3

Originally posted by zopzop
OMFG, GS! Dude how've you been? And Welcome back btw. <3

Ive been good. Thought id pop up and see who's still about. Bit of a ghost town. Time to cause some controversy

@GS, Beyonder and MM from Secret Wars 2.

As for Protege and Scathan, I think it's obvious from the story arc, they were more powerful than the LT.

And what about classic Starbrand being more powerful than the 616 IG?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive been good. Thought id pop up and see who's still about. Bit of a ghost town. Time to cause some controversy

Welcome back.

Originally posted by wxyz
@GS, Beyonder and MM from Secret Wars 2.

As for Protege and Scathan, I think it's obvious from the story arc, they were more powerful than the LT.

And what about classic Starbrand being more powerful than the 616 IG?

Those out of continuity versions of those characters would be more powerful than the IG. Thats not even a debate.

You can SAY you think that it was obvious from the story, but as i highlighted in my previous post there were a number of discrepancies in that story that mean the answer isn't clear cut.

For forum battles the only characters that can get a pass for not having feats are supreme beings.

Protege says he absorbed LTs powers and then got manhandled by a Celestial. Doesnt add up.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Welcome back.

Thanks bro. Glad you're keeping safe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Protege is overrated. He allegedly duplicated the powers of the Living Tribunal and based on that decided to call himself The One Above All (although he duplicates powers based on witnessing them in use and he never witnessed TOAA showing that declaration was false)

Protege however never did anything feat wise to show that he had actually managed to duplicate LT's power, (he only assumed a similar form)

Further placing doubt on the matter is he was then defeated by a single Celestial

But bafflingly instead of using that incident to say Proteges claims were exaggerated/false, people elevate this random Celestial to LT levels based on paper thin evidence.

It just doesn't hold up.

As for number 4, do you mean The Beyonders as in the cumulative power of the entire race? The Beyonder entity alone by canon would be below the Abstracts and on the same rung as Galactus/The Celestials

616 Jaspers never displayed anywhere near the power of the IG. He did a global scale reality warp that was said to have the potential to expand and become a threat to the omniverse. But thats in a similar manner to how a fire started within a garbage can if left unchecked could grow and take out a house and even a row of houses. Jaspers would go on to be dispatched by a single Fury. We never got to see if Jaspers could reach such potential.

Tellingly, Jim Jaspers never made it on to the official list of omega mutants. Why? Because he is not the most powerful reality warper in his class. Franklin Richards outdoes him What the...

https://media.giphy.com/media/aWPGuTlDqq2yc/giphy.gif

Sise-Neg and True Legion

Originally posted by Badabing
What the...

https://media.giphy.com/media/aWPGuTlDqq2yc/giphy.gif

I said what i said. Come at me!

Originally posted by HumbleServant
Good List

Thanks.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Molecule Man (before the Beyonder power was used for the recreation of multiverse)
God Doom
HOTI
LT
Phoenix Consciousness
Multi-Eternity
White Phoenix of the Crown
Marquis of Death

I haven't included the Beyonders as they are a race as opposed to an individual.
I also haven't included any out of continuity/retconned characters as that wouldn't make sense.
Lulz at Phoenix anywhere that level.

Originally posted by deft
Sise-Neg and True Legion

Not sure about Sise-Neg, but Legion most certainly is not, unless you believe that Nate Grey is also above the IG. I'd be interested to learn if I am correct here, because Nate recently defeated Legion, but again I may be missing some critical context.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Lulz at Phoenix anywhere that level.

The minor debaters always got jokes. Away with you. Leave this to the big boys.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The minor debaters always got jokes. Away with you. Leave this to the big boys.

Originally posted by wxyz
@GS, Beyonder and MM from Secret Wars 2.

As for Protege and Scathan, I think it's obvious from the story arc, they were more powerful than the LT.

And what about classic Starbrand being more powerful than the 616 IG?

Classic Starbrand doesnt have the feats to place it beyond even the Abstracts let alone the IG.

Quasar has a good story arc with the Starbrand

Originally posted by Stoic
Not sure about Sise-Neg, but Legion most certainly is not, unless you believe that Nate Grey is also above the IG. I'd be interested to learn if I am correct here, because Nate recently defeated Legion, but again I may be missing some critical context.

True Legion is multiversal, isn't?

Originally posted by deft
True Legion is multiversal, isn't?

Definitely not. I'll have to re-read age of x to see if the reality warp was global or universal, however even if it was universal, that wouldnt make him multiversal and certainly wouldnt place him above the IG.

The reality stone backed by the power stone could achieve that. A cosmic cube could achieve that and its not on IGs level.

Originally posted by deft
True Legion is multiversal, isn't?

Further to my last post it was a global reality warp. Proof of this is that 616 continued to exist and go on as normal beyond the global sphere of influence. The character Revenant was actually Rachel Greys astral form. She was in space with the Starjammers and had been trying to make telepathic contact with Earth at the time that Legions Moira personality unleashed the warp, so her astral form got caught up in it and took on a warped persona in this reality.

It was a pocket reality and as such received its own reality designation. But wasn't a universal rewrite in the way Age of Apocalypse was for example.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I said what i said. Come at me! I'm shocked you're posting again, and it's not a debate against Mr. Master. I don't like change. sneer

GS is Leo's sock.

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm shocked you're posting again, and it's not a debate against Mr. Master. I don't like change. sneer




I thought id make a long overdue reappearance. Nice to see some of the old gang.

A mod these days yh? Someone's moving on up in the world?! Lol

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
GS is Leo's sock.

Leos a much nicer guy than i am

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No no, normal Superman.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The minor debaters always got jokes. Away with you. Leave this to the big boys.


Why this bravado? You know you can't match me.

i pay to see abhi and GS going at it

has potential to be another rivalry now that Master is gone

Mr. Master should rebirth with this thread.

Originally posted by MrMind
i pay to see abhi and GS going at it

has potential to be another rivalry now that Master is gone
I don't punch down.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't punch down.

You dont punch at all. You know better kid. Now go clout chase elsewhere. Time is money and you broke.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You dont punch at all. You know better kid. Now go clout chase elsewhere. Time is money and you broke.
Funny, that's what Master said before I knocked his lights out in literally every thread he was in.

You know, your archrival?

Are you done with your carver level comebacks?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Funny, that's what Master said before I knocked his lights out in literally every thread he was in.

You know, your archrival?

Are you done with your carver level comebacks?

Words...words and more words. Enter this debate or zip it kid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Words...words and more words. Enter this debate or zip it kid.
I already threw down the gauntlet. You're the one who is running away.

Anyway Phoenix Force is skyfather level, more or less. There are some outliers but on average Odin/Galactus is where Phoenix Force is, power wise.

You're welcome to try and get wrecked.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I already threw down the gauntlet. You're the one who is running away.

Anyway Phoenix Force is skyfather level, more or less. There are some outliers but on average Odin/Galactus is where Phoenix Force is, power wise.

You're welcome to try and get wrecked.

I posted a hierarchy. You disagreed in that mature way you do ("lulz"

Wheres your evidence? Put your money where your mouth is. You'll soon realise youve bitten off more than you can chew.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I posted a hierarchy. You disagreed in that mature way you do ("lulz"

Wheres your evidence? Put your money where your mouth is. You'll soon realise youve bitten off more than you can chew.
What's your evidence on putting Phoenix on that level? You made the claim first, now kindly prove it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's your evidence on putting Phoenix on that level? You made the claim first, now kindly prove it.

Indeed i did. I put my opinion out there and went about my business.

If youre gonna pop up and say im wrong, then present your case and I'll swiftly take it apart.

If all you have to give me however is an opposing opinion then that isnt enough to call me into action these days.

Show me the money!

Originally posted by MrMind
i pay to see abhi and GS going at it

has potential to be another rivalry now that Master is gone

You'll be disappointed. Abhi rose from obscurity when the good debaters left.

Originally posted by wxyz
What about Hulk?

Youre right. 2 of the most powerful beings...

https://i.imgur.com/oOfJPLQ.jpg

The most powerful being in existence...

https://i.imgur.com/1azeISZ.jpg

The Eternals think interest of Celestials and Beyonder is just a carrot on a stick in comparison to the real God.

Phoenix is nowhere near IG level, but I'm happy to be shown otherwise.

I was under the impression that the Infinity Gauntlet was all powerful in it's native universe. What would actually be above it? I also believe that it is erroneous to automatically believe that a being capable of operating in multiple universes somehow means that they would overpower the Infinity Gauntlet within its native universe. However, I believe if they were somehow able to remove a seasoned user who has mastered the Infinity Gauntlet from its native universe that they would win, as the gems would be rendered powerless outside of its borders.

The real question remains as to how that would actually occur, since the Infinity Gauntlet grants the user the ability to not only see into the future, but also the ability to travel through time with unerring precision.

Originally posted by wxyz
Phoenix is nowhere near IG level, but I'm happy to be shown otherwise.

Good lad. Thats the spirit.

Originally posted by Stoic
I was under the impression that the Infinity Gauntlet was all powerful in it's native universe. What would actually be above it? I also believe that it is erroneous to automatically believe that a being capable of operating in multiple universes somehow means that they would overpower the Infinity Gauntlet within its native universe. However, I believe if they were somehow able to remove a seasoned user who has mastered the Infinity Gauntlet from its native universe that they would win, as the gems would be rendered powerless outside of its borders.

The real question remains as to how that would actually occur, since the Infinity Gauntlet grants the user the ability to not only see into the future, but also the ability to travel through time with unerring precision.

In comics there are levels of infinity. The only truly all powerful entity is Marvels supreme being TOAA. (That's assuming Starlin's rubbish Infinity series is considered non canon)

The HOTI for example outclassed the IG.

Any entity that displays beyond universal power would also be beyond the IG.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Protege is overrated. He allegedly duplicated the powers of the Living Tribunal and based on that decided to call himself The One Above All (although he duplicates powers based on witnessing them in use and he never witnessed TOAA showing that declaration was false)

Protege however never did anything feat wise to show that he had actually managed to duplicate LT's power, (he only assumed a similar form)

Further placing doubt on the matter is he was then defeated by a single Celestial

But bafflingly instead of using that incident to say Proteges claims were exaggerated/false, people elevate this random Celestial to LT levels based on paper thin evidence.

It just doesn't hold up.

As for number 4, do you mean The Beyonders as in the cumulative power of the entire race? The Beyonder entity alone by canon would be below the Abstracts and on the same rung as Galactus/The Celestials

616 Jaspers never displayed anywhere near the power of the IG. He did a global scale reality warp that was said to have the potential to expand and become a threat to the omniverse. But thats in a similar manner to how a fire started within a garbage can if left unchecked could grow and take out a house and even a row of houses. Jaspers would go on to be dispatched by a single Fury. We never got to see if Jaspers could reach such potential.

Tellingly, Jim Jaspers never made it on to the official list of omega mutants. Why? Because he is not the most powerful reality warper in his class. Franklin Richards outdoes him

Good post about Protege

Especially the last part

The mistake many people make is that they don't put things into perspective and consider context and comparative nature.

The IG is a tool. The Phoenix Force is a sentient entity with its own agenda.

To simplify things, lets equate a potential user of either to a learner driver.
The IG would be an automatic Ford family car. The Phoenix Force would be a manual sports car.

The IG is easier to control and gives easy access to its full suite of features from the get go for just about all users. Leading to dramatically less variance between user showings.

The Phoenix Force however is a far more temperamental beast to tame and what you can get out of it depends on the users skill level.

Because of this you will always get consistently high showings with the IG.

With the Phoenix however it depends on the host, were they already an adept energy wielder or telepath, are they emotionally stable, is what they're trying to do aligned with the Phoenix Forces agenda (if not then the Force will simply turn on you and limit what you can do as seen in Uncanny X-Force when Jean attacked Death/Archangel)

However if you have a competent user, who has the necessary willpower/emotional stability and they're carrying out the Forces agenda then the feats such hosts have achieved have been beyond the best showings of the IG by a considerable margin and that's not debatable.

A manual car is tougher to master, but gives finer control and enables you to eke out performance that you never could from an automatic.

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Good post about Protege

Especially the last part

Thanks bro. People are selective in how they evaluate situations and inconsistent with their demands for evidence.

The Protege incident is feat-less and evidence is thin on the ground. What evidence was there is that he got defeated by a Celestial. Hence we have an indication of his previously unknown limit.

We don't uprate the Celestial when Proteges claims were unsubstantiated. Instead we should say, Protege got defeated by a Celestial

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Indeed i did. I put my opinion out there and went about my business.

If youre gonna pop up and say im wrong, then present your case and I'll swiftly take it apart.

Why would I want to prove a negative?

And why would I care what you want or what brings you to action? You're a nobody.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You'll be disappointed. Abhi rose from obscurity when the good debaters left.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The mistake many people make is that they don't put things into perspective and consider context and comparative nature.

The IG is a tool. The Phoenix Force is a sentient entity with its own agenda.

To simplify things, lets equate a potential user of either to a learner driver.
The IG would be an automatic Ford family car. The Phoenix Force would be a manual sports car.

The IG is easier to control and gives easy access to its full suite of features from the get go for just about all users. Leading to dramatically less variance between user showings.

The Phoenix Force however is a far more temperamental beast to tame and what you can get out of it depends on the users skill level.

Because of this you will always get consistently high showings with the IG.

With the Phoenix however it depends on the host, were they already an adept energy wielder or telepath, are they emotionally stable, is what they're trying to do aligned with the Phoenix Forces agenda (if not then the Force will simply turn on you and limit what you can do as seen in Uncanny X-Force when Jean attacked Death/Archangel)

However if you have a competent user, who has the necessary willpower/emotional stability and they're carrying out the Forces agenda then the feats such hosts have achieved have been beyond the best showings of the IG by a considerable margin and that's not debatable.

A manual car is tougher to master, but gives finer control and enables you to eke out performance that you never could from an automatic.
That doesn't explain why the actual Phoenix Force (Without any host) has actually poorer feats than the Phoenix hosts.

The idea that different Phoenix hosts have different power levels is an apocryphal idea with no such indications in the recent comics in last 15 years.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would I want to prove a negative?

And why would I care what you want or what brings you to action? You're a nobody.

As previously mentioned, i posted my opinion. Whether people agreed or did not was not my concern. I said what i said and moved on.

You're the third world debater begging for my attention. On this occasion I'll give you what you desire kid. Merry Christmas.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would I want to prove a negative?

And why would I care what you want or what brings you to action? You're a nobody.

You bragged about winning tournaments and some fictional championship belts on a battleboard tryna impress me, and you wanna call somebody a nobody lmaooo

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As previously mentioned, i posted my opinion. Whether people agreed or did not was not my concern. I said what i said and moved on.

I accept your concession that you only have your opinion and nothing else.

I said lulz to your post. Maybe you've your head scrambled but I don't even know who you are. Drop the ego.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
You bragged about winning tournaments and some fictional championship belts on a battleboard tryna impress me, and you wanna call somebody a nobody lmaooo


You're adorable kid.

Originally posted by abhilegend


You're adorable kid.

I'm old enough to be your dad relax "kid"

So if you're that old Albert, why did you post a pic of a kid next to Starlin and say it was you?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I'm old enough to be your dad relax "kid"
Age does not correlates to maturity kid.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That doesn't explain why the actual Phoenix Force (Without any host) has actually poorer feats than the Phoenix hosts.

It is the power behind the hosts feats, it facilitates them so by what strange logic would you try and separate them?

If a host does something great on panel then is it not logical that the Force itself is capable of greater?

Originally posted by abhilegend
The idea that different Phoenix hosts have different power levels is an apocryphal idea with no such indications in the recent comics in last 15 years.

Apocryphal only to one who knows the bare minimum about a subject he is arrogantly trying to debate on. Do better

If something is presented as fact within the comic book world, then unless a retcon is explicitly put in place showing it is no longer fact, you have no grounds in saying otherwise. Know your place

The Phoenix Force itself indicates in New X-men 154 that there are different classes of avatar when it states in New X-men 154 that telekinetic control of the universes atoms isn't as easy as it sounds in training even for a White Phoenix:

https://i.imgur.com/QUItnRZ.jpg

Necrom siphoned a shard of the Phoenix Force millenia ago, yet was capable of greater feats of power with this fragment of the Force, than Rachel who was the chosen host of the Phoenix:

https://i.imgur.com/tllS4on.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/fxNkFW1.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/jW91RdG.jpg

Again showing you that how powerful a host is depends on the ability of said host and its compatibility with the Force.

The Phoenix Force again highlighted that there is a difference between hosts as recently as 2018 when it stated that in the Jean Grey limited series that Jean Grey was its most powerful and influential host:

https://i.imgur.com/9ObpWJm.jpg

As i said in my previous example, the IG is like an automatic family car and the Phoenix would be a manual sports car.

The automatic is easier to use, its pick up and go making for consistent high showings.

The manual has a learning curve, but once mastered gives a greater degree of fine control and performance than an automatic ever could. It all just depends on the user. Hence the varying showings of hosts.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Age does not correlates to maturity kid.

You're hardly making a case for yourself son

Originally posted by abhilegend
I accept your concession that you only have your opinion and nothing else.

I said lulz to your post. Maybe you've your head scrambled but I don't even know who you are. Drop the ego.

You tried to get my attention and then later referred to my past debates with Mr Master that you used to read and make notes on.

Youve clearly admired me from afar.

Stay being inspired

Originally posted by Stoic
I was under the impression that the Infinity Gauntlet was all powerful in it's native universe. What would actually be above it? I also believe that it is erroneous to automatically believe that a being capable of operating in multiple universes somehow means that they would overpower the Infinity Gauntlet within its native universe. However, I believe if they were somehow able to remove a seasoned user who has mastered the Infinity Gauntlet from its native universe that they would win, as the gems would be rendered powerless outside of its borders.

The real question remains as to how that would actually occur, since the Infinity Gauntlet grants the user the ability to not only see into the future, but also the ability to travel through time with unerring precision.

Do you think an IG 616 wielder can beat either Beyonder or Molecule Man in 616?

@GS, will you point out the feats the Phoenix Force has that are better than the 616 IG?

Originally posted by wxyz
Do you think an IG 616 wielder can beat either Beyonder or Molecule Man in 616?

@GS, will you point out the feats the Phoenix Force has that are better than the 616 IG?

No problem.

Re-energising the energy matrix that contains the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal both in this multiverse and the previous one that Galactus derived from

(Galans multiverse)
https://i.imgur.com/YawAWf2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aqXekex.jpg

616

https://i.imgur.com/2Y4GUvX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FIuyEx7.jpg



Galactus confirming to Franklin Richards that the Phoenix from the previous multiverse is one and the same:

https://i.imgur.com/FKO4R4M.jpg



Empowering Jean to casually wipe out the Here Comes tomorrow timeline telekinetically in the space of a sentence

https://i.imgur.com/FLicZ7h.jpg

(Handbook confirmation)

https://i.imgur.com/B3rPbU6.jpg

Empowering Jean to telekinetically manifest the 616 universe in the palm of her hand atom by atom displaying total telekinetic control of the 616 universe

https://i.imgur.com/QUItnRZ.jpg

Next to that the IG being top dog in a reality (that the White Phoenix casually wipes out with a thought or manifests in her palm displaying total telekinetic control of its atoms) is entirely insignificant

Originally posted by wxyz
Do you think an IG 616 wielder can beat either Beyonder or Molecule Man in 616?

@GS, will you point out the feats the Phoenix Force has that are better than the 616 IG?

An IG wielder can certainly beat Beyonder as his post retcon form places him as a minor omnipotent (below Celestial level)

Molecule Man after absorbing the power of the entire Beyonder race would be 2nd only to TOAA in current continuity. However after he exhausted this power-up facilitating the recreation of the multiverse he was then below Abstract level as indicated by his destruction at the hands of the Griever

Galans multiverse was destroyed by the power of the M'kraan crystal. It was this power that the Phoenix Force has contained twice within continuity.

So Phoenix is a multiversal power?

What about Secret Wars 2 Beyonder and Molecule Man, either of them vs 616 IG?

Originally posted by wxyz
So Phoenix is a multiversal power?

What about Secret Wars 2 Beyonder and Molecule Man, either of them vs 616 IG?

Just like Eternity operates at both a universal and a multiversal level, the same hold true of the Phoenix Force.

It is the sum and substance of all life in reality.

So all universal matter and energy derive from the Phoenix Force degree of separation.

"sum and substance of ife"

https://i.imgur.com/hVf8Ktc.jpg

the source of all the stars, planets and Gods:

https://i.imgur.com/AGF50IX.jpg

There would be a void without as its totality encompasses all:

https://i.imgur.com/eHEpD42.jpg

That's in contrast to Eternity and Infinity who are conceptual beings that represent aspects of the creation(time and space) that the Phoenix is the physical sum and substance of.

It empowers a multversal Phoenix Corps and the top ranking hosts such as Jean operate on a level beyond the Abstracts and IG, able to casually destroy realities that threaten the wider multiversal system and telekinetically manipulate the atomic structure of whole universes, which takes far more power than simply blowing one up.

Secret Wars 2 Beyonder and Molecule Man both possessed more power than the IG. But theyre out of continuity so pointless dwelling on them.

You seem to be making some good points.

The scans you post are statements, not feats like the 616 IG has.

Originally posted by wxyz
You seem to be making some good points.

The scans you post are statements, not feats like the 616 IG has.

Nope. ive posted both feats and statements from reputable authorities i.e cosmic characters who would have the knowledge or the authors captions themselves.

The feats themselves were the containment of the multiversal m'kraan, the casual destruction of universes with a thought and the manipulation of 616s atomic structure in the palm of Jeans hand.

The IG gives virtually supreme power in a universe. The feats ive posted make that irrelevant and demonstrate power on a different scale.

Dont do a superficial analysis, look at everything and pick up on the implications

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It is the power behind the hosts feats, it facilitates them so by what strange logic would you try and separate them?

Modern comics have veered away from "Skills of the host matters" to the "willingness of the host matters" as demonstrated by your own scans.

Is it now? Remind us what happened to Phoenix Force in AvX.



Big words from someone like you.

Fortunately, we got one.

Like I said, there are some outliers for its power.

Heh, like I said apocryphal. But did you know that Necrom actually defeated Phoenix Force and in turn was defeated by Rachel?

Only because she chose Phoenix willingly. There's not even mention of the word "skill".

Its not. Phoenix is all hype with nothing to show bar one or two showings.

No, it's not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just like Eternity operates at both a universal and a multiversal level, the same hold true of the Phoenix Force.

It is the sum and substance of all life in reality.

So all universal matter and energy derive from the Phoenix Force degree of separation.

"sum and substance of ife"

https://i.imgur.com/hVf8Ktc.jpg

Retconned. Its the sum of the psychic energy now. Not life.

According to Shiar beliefs. Not true as we have actually seen Knull witnessing celestials create all planets and stars in the universe.

Again, retconned.

So does Merlyn and Roma. Doesn't makes them more powerful than abstracts.

The stories are in continuity, just that both are now just cosmic cubes and less powerful than IG.

You're awful at this.

GS!

If your rebirth doesn't force Mr Master to logon(with his main account), nothing will.

GS I love you bud

but you gotta learn to use thumbnail you ancient dinosaur

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix fled from Necrom after he ripped out part of it. That's a clear cut defeat, it was outright stated that Necrom could've easily killed Feron.

But tell me, why did Phoenix flee from Necrom after he ripped part of it out? Shouldn't this almighty force destroy him?

Yeah, juggling stars and planets or solar systems shouldn't be hard for someone who defeated Phoenix Force. Even I know Phoenix is that powerful.

You cant be this dense?

Seriously. You cant be


The Force in this interpretation was a like a newborn baby. It had just re-awoken to sentience when Feron reached out to it.

It allowed Feron to bond with a portion of it so he could achieve his goals whilst it could experience sentience and human emotion and learn.


https://i.imgur.com/h5S3Up6.jpg



Necrom defeated Feron as despite Feron being bonded to a portion of the Phoenix he was still Necroms student and inferior in terms of skill and finesse with energy wielding and so was defeated.


This incident again proves my point that hosts dont all have full access to the Forces power and that they are only as capable as their mindset, willpower and ability allow them to be.


Furthermore as stated Feron was just bonded to a portion of its essence. So thats another way that hosts can differ thus explaining differences between them.



The Phoenix Force was just a neutral power source in this encounter. It wasnt in combat with Necrom itself. Necrom tearing out the portion of Force Feron was bonded with, pained it and it fled. Which when you consider the context given in the story (i.e it being newborn to sentience) makes sense.


So how does this in any way take away from the output of power that the Force is demonstrably capable of? They are separate things. Character behaviour, character durability, character power output. SEPARATE. A low showing of one doesnt allow you to dismiss whats achieved in the others. There is a clear comprehension issue here. Work on that.

Originally posted by Galan007
GS!

If your rebirth doesn't force Mr Master to logon(with his main account), nothing will.

To be honest thats kind of the plan.

Glad you're well bro

Originally posted by MrMind
GS I love you bud

but you gotta learn to use thumbnail you ancient dinosaur

You know you like my bold in your face scans

Originally posted by abhilegend


Phoenix is not big bang. It was born AFTER the big bang.


Ive presented scans saying that the power source of the stars is the Phoenix Force.

Scans saying it it is the sum and substance of all life

I've also presented scans explicitly stating that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. They're one and the same.

What you dont seem to be able to compute is that the Phoenix can be both born in the Big Bang and be the matter/energy of the Big Bang.

The Force itself is the sentience of the Big Bang. Said sentience developing after the event.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://i.postimg.cc/SXmMvJKF/image.jpg

So you've conceded that Phoenix didn't create planets, celestials did and its clearly confirmed in AvX 4 that Phoenix was born after big bang, so I guess that's a wrap.

I never said that the Phoenix created the planets. I said they stem from the Phoenix Force as it is the Big Bang. Why are you not getting the difference? Its not a complex point


That Knull spotlight showed that a Big Bang happened, Knull was repelled for eons after which point the Celestials played their part in seeding the universe with life and aiding evolution.

This doesnt stop the Phoenix Force from being the life energy/matter that stars and planets stem from.

All this shows is that eons after the Big Bang, the Celestials either created planets out of ambient post Big Bang energy/matter or in addition to planets that form naturally after a Big Bang the Celestials also had a hand in creating planets.

Know the difference between the fleshing out of an origin and a retcon. The Big Bang still occurred in that issue and it wasn't stated to no longer be the Phoenix.



As for your comment on Avengers Vs Xmen issue 4 it states that it was born in the microseconds in between cosmic death (end of the previous multiverse) and cosmic rebirth (beginning of the new multiverse/Big Bang)

https://i.imgur.com/Unlg8P4.jpg


What's the Big Bang?

A cosmological model which describes universal expansion from an initial state of extremely high density and high temperature

On the very next page Tony says that in order to attempt to make a Phoenix killer he has to "CRACK UNIVERSAL EXPANSION"


https://i.imgur.com/Q3GXFTs.jpg


GAME OVER
You shot yourself in the foot with your own evidence.
Get the hell outta here and dont waste my time

Out of morbid curiosity.

GalacticStorm, do you miss Mr Master? Or you're glad he's gone?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Out of morbid curiosity.

GalacticStorm, do you miss Mr Master? Or you're glad he's gone?

I love that guy.

Originally posted by abhilegend


You're empty bravado and nothing else. I'm barely putting an effort in this, don't bore me with such shitty posts.

I came out of retirement and I thoroughly whupped you.

Learn from this experience

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I love that guy.

Well, chances are he won't come back to this site.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, chances are he won't come back to this site.

What happened with him? I heard something about fake accounts or something but didnt get a proper explanation.

Any threads you could link me to as well so I can read the downfall?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

What happened with him? I heard something about fake accounts or something but didnt get a proper explanation.

He's been socking since the very beginning (2006). But nobody gave a shit about him and he was never exactly caught red-handed, so mods let him post.

Until he went full retard and started replying to DarkSaint from 2 accounts... it only got worse after that --- he wasn't able to grasp the basic forum rules, insisting that his multiple accounts don't count as socking (lol...) and that he's too famous to use a single account on kmc (seriously) and we discovered like a dozen of his sock accounts scattered all over the forum... or more, actually - I've lost count (mods did the IP checks).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Any threads you could link me to as well so I can read the downfall?

There were many, lol.


But his downfall officially started in this one from last year:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=17006338#post17006338

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He's been socking since the very beginning (2006). But nobody gave a shit about him and he was never exactly caught red-handed, so mods let him post.

Until he went full retard and started replying to DarkSaint from 2 accounts... it only got worse after that --- he wasn't able to grasp the basic forum rules, insisting that his multiple accounts don't count as socking (lol...) and that he's too famous to use a single account on kmc (seriously) and we discovered like a dozen of his sock accounts scattered all over the forum... or more, actually - I've lost count (mods did the IP checks).



There were many, lol.


But his downfall officially started in this one from last year:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=17006338#post17006338

If you go back to some of our early debates I said years back that he used sock accounts to make it seem as if people favoured him in debates. JUSTICE!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you go back to some of our early debates I said years back that he used sock accounts to make it seem as if people favoured him in debates. JUSTICE!

Yes, we did our homework and checked some old threads.

While I don't remember you stating that, I believe you.

I definitely stumbled upon the thread in which Prof. T.C McAbe (formerly known as Batman-Prime) called Mr Master out on it.

Here it is:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=604514&pagenumber=5

eaebiekuya, unknowable, Smoki, Killemall... all confirmed socks of his.

And that's not the full list, of course; far from it. Just the ones on page five of that thread.

Here's the link BTW.

https://i.postimg.cc/68LnvfTn/image.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not every quantity that exists within a category is the same.

For example Elixir is an omega mutant and Jamie Braddock is an omega mutant. Are they equals in power?

Dominating abstracts within a universe who themselves are just fragments/aspects of said universe does not compare to casually having complete control of all matter and energy within a universe down to its component atoms. To pull that off you at an atomic level would have to be wielding more power than is contained within said universe. To pull it off so casually gives serious implications not just regarding the full capability of The White Phoenix, but that of the Phoenix Force that powers her.



I posted a scan saying and showing that Feron bonded with a portion of the Phoenix and replicated the Whitehouse on all planes of the multiverse. How can you say no it was Necrom?

https://i.imgur.com/JNpRWMX.jpg


Either youre trolling or mentally deficient. Seek help.


This post is just a mess, what are you even talking about? What universal abstract did Phoenix beat?

Also I said Necrom created the energy matrix which he did. Can't you read anything?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You cant be this dense?

Seriously. You cant be

Shut up already.

There's no such term as a "portion" in that scan or comic. Phoenix chose him as an avatar with full Phoenix Force.

Haha, your reading comprehension is worse than Carver's if such thing was even possible. But I'm curious, where is this "small portio" mentioned, post just that panel for me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive presented scans saying that the power source of the stars is the Phoenix Force.

Scans saying it it is the sum and substance of all life

I've also presented scans explicitly stating that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. They're one and the same.

What you dont seem to be able to compute is that the Phoenix can be both born in the Big Bang and be the matter/energy of the Big Bang.

The Force itself is the sentience of the Big Bang. Said sentience developing after the event.



I never said that the Phoenix created the planets. I said they stem from the Phoenix Force as it is the Big Bang. Why are you not getting the difference? Its not a complex point


That Knull spotlight showed that a Big Bang happened, Knull was repelled for eons after which point the Celestials played their part in seeding the universe with life and aiding evolution.

This doesnt stop the Phoenix Force from being the life energy/matter that stars and planets stem from.

All this shows is that eons after the Big Bang, the Celestials either created planets out of ambient post Big Bang energy/matter or in addition to planets that form naturally after a Big Bang the Celestials also had a hand in creating planets.

Know the difference between the fleshing out of an origin and a retcon. The Big Bang still occurred in that issue and it wasn't stated to no longer be the Phoenix.



As for your comment on Avengers Vs Xmen issue 4 it states that it was born in the microseconds in between cosmic death (end of the previous multiverse) and cosmic rebirth (beginning of the new multiverse/Big Bang)

https://i.imgur.com/Unlg8P4.jpg


What's the Big Bang?

A cosmological model which describes universal expansion from an initial state of extremely high density and high temperature

On the very next page Tony says that in order to attempt to make a Phoenix killer he has to "CRACK UNIVERSAL EXPANSION"


https://i.imgur.com/Q3GXFTs.jpg


GAME OVER
You shot yourself in the foot with your own evidence.
Get the hell outta here and dont waste my time
LMAO. You think Big Bang is the expansion of the universe? It's the explosion which occurred after matter and Anti matter interaction. I'm not sure what else is needed to confirm but here it is from the official handbook that Phoenix was reborn in the universe creating big bang.
https://i.postimg.cc/T3rPVwCk/IMG-20201219-131514.jpg

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I came out of retirement and I thoroughly whupped you.

Learn from this experience


Like I said, empty bravado.

Originally posted by abhilegend
LMAO. You think Big Bang is the expansion of the universe? It's the explosion which occurred after matter and Anti matter interaction. I'm not sure what else is needed to confirm but here it is from the official handbook that Phoenix was reborn in the universe creating big bang.
https://i.postimg.cc/T3rPVwCk/IMG-20201219-131514.jpg

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.

What about this scan GS?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Shut up already.

There's no such term as a "portion" in that scan or comic. Phoenix chose him as an avatar with full Phoenix Force.

Haha, your reading comprehension is worse than Carver's if such thing was even possible. But I'm curious, where is this "small portio" mentioned, post just that panel for me.


No problem


"But instead tore out the portion of Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the avatar"



https://i.imgur.com/jOjrfru.jpg




So not only can emotional state, willpower, pre-existing psionic/energy manipulation capability be factors which differentiate how powerful one Phoenix host is from another, but also how large a portion of the Phoenix avatar they are allowed to bond with.


Feron as stated on panel was only bonded with a portion of the Phoenix. He didnt have the full power of the Force yet was still able to duplicate the lighthouse on every plane of reality across the multiverse.


Necrom stole this portion of Phoenix Force and it was this stolen, comparatively smaller portion that he wielded against Rachel the chosen Phoenix host and yet as ive shown in this thread he was pulling off better feats than her.


Why?


Because pre-existing energy manipulation/psionic skills are also a differentiator in how powerful a host is.



Phoenix please tell us who your most powerful host is?




https://i.imgur.com/9ObpWJm.jpg




What's that you say? Omega level telepath Jean Grey?




You sure its not Cyclops?

Originally posted by abhilegend
LMAO. You think Big Bang is the expansion of the universe? It's the explosion which occurred after matter and Anti matter interaction. I'm not sure what else is needed to confirm but here it is from the official handbook that Phoenix was reborn in the universe creating big bang.
https://i.postimg.cc/T3rPVwCk/IMG-20201219-131514.jpg

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.


Lets look at some definitions for what the Big Bang is:

https://www.sciencealert.com/big-bang

"The Big Bang is a theory describing the expansion of our Universe from a point of origin roughly 13.8 billion years ago."

Heres another

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/big-bang/en/

"It is the idea that the universe began as just a single point, then expanded and stretched to grow as large as it is right now (and it could still be stretching)"


So when I previously said its a cosmological model that "describes universal expansion from an initial state of extremely high density and high temperature" I was correct.

You should come to expect that


It is said on panel explicitly that Phoenix is the Big Bang:

https://i.imgur.com/Y2HIxOA.jpg



Phoenixes own memories show it is the Big Bang energies gone sentient:

https://i.imgur.com/h5S3Up6.jpg

Which is why it refers to itself as the sum and substance of all life and the handbooks call it the PRIME universal force of life.


Death, Roma and the Watcher all convene and explain that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing in the universe, just a void.

https://i.imgur.com/eHEpD42.jpg

Know when else theres a void?

Before the Big Bang!

All that handbook entry says is the Phoenix was reborn from the Big Bang event. It was. As stated and depicted many times over through continuity it is those very same eternal, life force energies that reawakens to sentience every creation cycle.


In order to understand how to stop the Phoenix Force Tony Stark uses particle accelerators to "simulate the Big Bang"




https://i.imgur.com/Unlg8P4.jpg




He further states that in in order to stop the Phoenix he needs to crack "universal expansion"




https://i.imgur.com/Q3GXFTs.jpg




Universal expansion from a singularity is the understood model of the Big Bang.


This is done and dusted

I have a feeling Phoenix will be heavily involved in the King in Black.

I am actually cringing. If you weren't so unjustifiably arrogant i would almost feel embarrassed for you.

This was just really horrible debating.

You cant comprehend simple lines of argument and you consistently display an inability to effectively interpret comic book scans and require them to be broken down for you.

This is shocking. I've never debated with you previously as you've never caught my attention, but now I see that was perhaps for the best.

Bro you're a 10yr veteran. You should not be debating at such a basic level.

Acknowledge your limitations and instead of coming on here like you know it all, be humble. Ask questions. Absorb knowledge from those who actually have it.

I'm happy to support. If pride prevents you coming to me after i've just worked your ass I can direct you to other knowledgeable and skilled debaters on here. My boy Leonidas, Illadelph, KingMungi, OneDumbGo, Draco, Galan and many more.

Take a backseat....Learn your craft and then try again

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I have a feeling Phoenix will be heavily involved in the King in Black.

That would be great and it would make sense given Knull wants a return to a lifeless void, however i think Marvel wouldnt wanna overdose fans on Phoenix and its about to start its own story arc this month with Enter The Phoenix. So i cant see it being a big feature in both.

I wouldnt mind though

Heres another scan saying the Phoenix Force is the embodiment of the Big Bang:

https://i.imgur.com/uk7gzwE.jpg

The evidence is overwhelming

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That would be great and it would make sense given Knull wants a return to a lifeless void, however i think Marvel wouldnt wanna overdose fans on Phoenix and its about to start its own story arc this month with Enter The Phoenix. So i cant see it being a big feature in both.

I wouldnt mind though
X-Men are featured in KiB #4 cover. Includes Grey...

Interesting they are on the cover. No one really thinks of mutants when it comes to anything symbiotes.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
X-Men are featured in KiB #4 cover. Includes Grey...

Interesting they are on the cover. No one really thinks of mutants when it comes to anything symbiotes.

In recent years the X-men and the mutant world in general has come out of the bubble it was previously in and they've been engaging with the rest of Marvel a lot more which is a good thing

Oh whats this?

Ive awoken to zero tomfoolery.

Its a shame you couldnt be a man and say fair enough GS you got me. But it is what it is.

Theres no shame in defeat Abhi-TallTales. Its a constructive experience. Embrace it

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang and prime life force from which everything native to a universe derives from

Phoenix hosts have pulled off multiple feats greater than the IGs best

My work here is done!

LMAO That's ****ing HILARIOUS! Abhi got spanked and fled off lmaoooo. Saving this

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh whats this?

Ive awoken to zero tomfoolery.

Its a shame you couldnt be a man and say fair enough GS you got me. But it is what it is.

Theres no shame in defeat Abhi-TallTales. Its a constructive experience. Embrace it

The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang and prime life force from which everything native to a universe derives from

Phoenix hosts have pulled off multiple feats greater than the IGs best

My work here is done! Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
LMAO That's ****ing HILARIOUS! Abhi got spanked and fled off lmaoooo. Saving this

Peas in a pod, huh?