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Durability Test

List of Participants :
- Silver Surfer (Current)
- Void(Sentry)
- God Swamp Thing
- Hyperion (Earth-13034)
-Infinity Gauntlet Thanos
-- Rune King Thor
- Parallax Hal
- Wonder Woman (Hecate)
- God Doom
- Soul Fire Darkseid
- Spidey Beyonder
-Molecule Man
- Pre Retcon Beyonder
-Mxy
-Spectre (most powerful version/Logos)
-Lucifer
-Legion

https://i.postimg.cc/KR9FzF0m/werf.jpg

Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Durability Test

List of Participants :
- Silver Surfer (Current)
- Void(Sentry)
- God Swamp Thing
- Hyperion (Earth-13034)
-Infinity Gauntlet Thanos
-- Rune King Thor
- Parallax Hal
- Wonder Woman (Hecate)
- God Doom
- Soul Fire Darkseid
- Spidey Beyonder
-Molecule Man
- Pre Retcon Beyonder
-Mxy
-Spectre (most powerful version/Logos)
-Lucifer
-Legion

https://i.postimg.cc/KR9FzF0m/werf.jpg

God Doom, Spectre, Wonder Woman (Hecate), Pre-retcon Beyonder, IG Thanos.

This multiversal/retcon punch at this point is a forum fabrication. There is no conclusive evidence for it. There are certainly allusions to some ability that other Superman analogues dont have but nothing has been confirmed to rule out it being a result of what he was hitting (multiversal structure) and the status at the time of who he was hitting (i.e DK after an extended fight with Perpetua, then fighting SBP whilst simultaneously powering a multiversal transition hence SBPs blows causing changes)

Not saying he doesnt have some extra ability. Just saying it has not been confirmed on panel, its been alluded to and left open to interpretation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
God Doom, Spectre, Wonder Woman (Hecate), Pre-retcon Beyonder, IG Thanos.

This multiversal/retcon punch at this point is a forum fabrication. There is no conclusive evidence for it. There are certainly allusions to some ability that other Superman analogues dont have but nothing has been confirmed to rule out it being a result of what he was hitting (multiversal structure) and the status at the time of who he was hitting (i.e DK after an extended fight with Perpetua, then fighting SBP whilst simultaneously powering a multiversal transition hence SBPs blows causing changes)

Not saying he doesnt have some extra ability. Just saying it has not been confirmed on panel, its been alluded to and left open to interpretation. SBP also changed the history of a corrupted Superman by hitting him.
Also it has been shown multiple times on panel that SBP did have retcon punch(Or whatever name you want to call it) . On the contrary.There is no evidence to prove the theory/fabrication of SBP can change reality is due to his conditions
Put it in simple in this argument the side that arguing SBP needs some certain condition to perform his reality-warping ability should be the one who providing conclusive evidence that SBP needs certain conditions to do a retcon punch, not vice versa
Because the comics have constantly shown SBP can change reality/break reality and never specifically mentioned it was due to some certain conditions to allow SBP to do that.

When SBP broke out of the pHantom Zone, he didn't hit any multiversal people or structures.....but retconned Beast Boy all the same.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
God Doom, Spectre, Wonder Woman (Hecate), Pre-retcon Beyonder, IG Thanos.

This multiversal/retcon punch at this point is a forum fabrication. There is no conclusive evidence for it. There are certainly allusions to some ability that other Superman analogues dont have but nothing has been confirmed to rule out it being a result of what he was hitting (multiversal structure) and the status at the time of who he was hitting (i.e DK after an extended fight with Perpetua, then fighting SBP whilst simultaneously powering a multiversal transition hence SBPs blows causing changes)

Not saying he doesnt have some extra ability. Just saying it has not been confirmed on panel, its been alluded to and left open to interpretation. Nice fanfic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
God Doom, Spectre, Wonder Woman (Hecate), Pre-retcon Beyonder, IG Thanos.

This multiversal/retcon punch at this point is a forum fabrication. There is no conclusive evidence for it. There are certainly allusions to some ability that other Superman analogues dont have but nothing has been confirmed to rule out it being a result of what he was hitting (multiversal structure) and the status at the time of who he was hitting (i.e DK after an extended fight with Perpetua, then fighting SBP whilst simultaneously powering a multiversal transition hence SBPs blows causing changes)

Not saying he doesnt have some extra ability. Just saying it has not been confirmed on panel, its been alluded to and left open to interpretation.

Great post 👍 I've been telling the superman brigade for awhile now that the "retcon" punch had context/circumstances to it, there's zero proof its an ability unique to Prime.

Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

@AlbertoJohnAvil
First of all. What it has anything to do with what I said?
Second. This scan happened before SBP fighting Darkest Knight.
Here is the scan that you posted from:https://www.cbr.com/dc-death-metal-wonder-woman-most-powerful-ever/
A Death Metal preview, The comic hasn't even been released yet.
And not to mention it should take place before SBP fighting Darkest Knight
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yup.

Death Metal #6, you can see SBP hovering in the background with his armour on in the Superman panel:
https://i.postimg.cc/kDbrjrHx/20-4.jpg

Just before that, TBWL unleashes his final army, which includes Flaming Superman:
https://i.postimg.cc/MfkLkTL1/18-8.jpg

Death Metal Secret Origin then has Flaming Superman in battle, just before SBP starts doing his retcon punching:
https://i.postimg.cc/bsc7WCX4/16-9.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
@AlbertoJohnAvil
First of all. What it has anything to do with what I said?
Second. This scan happened before SBP fighting Darkest Knight.
Here is the scan that you posted from:https://www.cbr.com/dc-death-metal-wonder-woman-most-powerful-ever/
A Death Metal preview, The comic hasn't even been released yet.
And not to mention it should take place before SBP fighting Darkest Knight

Super stans have gotta be THE top 5 delusional fanbase on the planet, How would it be before since you SEE prime out in bwl glare?
You DO know that's SBP in the middle of the scan right? I mean it LOOKS like him after that final punch to BWL.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Super stans have gotta be THE top 5 delusional fanbase on the planet, How would it be before since you SEE prime out in bwl glare?
You DO know that's SBP in the middle of the scan right? I mean it LOOKS like him after that final punch to BWL.
Wonder Woman actually stated "comes down to these next moments. She is about to look into the FUTURE"
Also you do know that the artist didn't draw overall view of this battle right?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
SBP also changed the history of a corrupted Superman by hitting him.
Also it has been shown multiple times on panel that SBP did have retcon punch(Or whatever name you want to call it) . On the contrary.There is no evidence to prove the theory/fabrication of SBP can change reality is due to his conditions
Put it in simple in this argument the side that arguing SBP needs some certain condition to perform his reality-warping ability should be the one who providing conclusive evidence that SBP needs certain conditions to do a retcon punch, not vice versa
Because the comics have constantly shown SBP can change reality/break reality and never specifically mentioned it was due to some certain conditions to allow SBP to do that.

What i said still stands.

Nothing conclusive has been stated on panel or demonstrated on panel, key word being conclusive. Thats what doesnt seem to be registering.

Its certainly been alluded to, its understandable how it can be interpreted as you have, but thats the point, its an interpretation.

People have got to understand the difference between conclusive evidence and interpretation.

Until an official DC source flat out states that he has this ability, you cannot put it out there like its fact. Just make a case for it and say these on panel showings allude to it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i said still stands.

Nothing conclusive has been stated on panel or demonstrated on panel, key word being conclusive. Thats what doesnt seem to be registering.

Its certainly been alluded to, its understandable how it can be interpreted as you have, but thats the point, its an interpretation.

People have got to understand the difference between conclusive evidence and interpretation.

Until an official DC source flat out states that he has this ability, you cannot put it out there like its fact. Just make a case for it and say these on panel showings allude to it. But the comics did exactly what you said. Infinite Crisis Secret Files stated he can change continuity and Death Metal stated he can break reality. And he did demonstrate it multiple times at different conditions/locations/opponents without mentioning SBP needs some certain conditions to perform it.
So from the comics we can get 1 SBP can change reality. 2 There is no specific evidence to prove this ability requires some certain conditions
So by definition. SBP can change reality is a conclusive fact. On the contrary, SBP needs specific conditions to do that is a theory/interpretation of SBP reality-warping ability

Originally posted by abhilegend
The trolls are in full damage control mode, eh?

Troll? Grow up.

I havent said anything that isn't reasonable or logical. So either your comment stems from the resentment you harbour cos i whupped you in that other thread or your comprehension skills are lacking.

To be fair its probably a bit of both


I am not saying that some ability hasnt been suggested, im just saying it hasnt been confirmed.

We as debaters have to draw the line and have standards and parameters to operate within.

You cannot state something is fact without conclusive confirmation from an official source.

You can only say why you believe something is the case and bring together scans and post your interpretation. Thats different.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Troll? Grow up.

I havent said anything that isn't reasonable or logical. So either your comment stems from the resentment you harbour cos i whupped you in that other thread or your comprehension skills are lacking.

To be fair its probably a bit of both


I am not saying that some ability hasnt been suggested, im just saying it hasnt been confirmed.

We as debaters have to draw the line and have standards and parameters to operate within.

You cannot state something is fact without conclusive confirmation from an official source.

You can only say why you believe something is the case and bring together scans and post your interpretation. Thats different.

I'm sorry to call a spade, a spade my dear. You're just a troll at this point, there's nothing logical about your posts, it's just your conjectures and fanfiction.

Don't like it? Couldn't care less.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Wonder Woman actually stated "comes down to these next moments. She is about to look into the FUTURE"
Also you do know that the artist didn't draw overall view of this battle right?

The future builds into future state
This definitely is after the fight with prime, period.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm sorry to call a spade, a spade my dear. You're just a troll at this point, there's nothing logical about your posts, it's just your conjectures and fanfiction.

Don't like it? Couldn't care less.

your meltdown is hilarious, the beatdown GS gave you in the other thread got to you huh
Everybodys a troll when they smack shit down your brainless self lmao

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
The future builds into future state
This definitely is after the fight with prime, period.
LMAO

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
your meltdown is hilarious, the beatdown GS gave you in the other thread got to you huh
Everybodys a troll when they smack shit down your brainless self lmao
Troll gonna side with the troll, who knew?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Troll gonna side with the troll, who knew?

I don't side with you in general, you're an idiot, stop derailing my thread with your feels.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i said still stands.

Nothing conclusive has been stated on panel or demonstrated on panel, key word being conclusive. Thats what doesnt seem to be registering.

Its certainly been alluded to, its understandable how it can be interpreted as you have, but thats the point, its an interpretation.

People have got to understand the difference between conclusive evidence and interpretation.

Until an official DC source flat out states that he has this ability, you cannot put it out there like its fact. Just make a case for it and say these on panel showings allude to it. We don't use books, interviews, wikias, encyclopedias, statements, twitters, ig publications, friend writer's comments to your 7 year old kid, etc as proof.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
The future builds into future state
This definitely is after the fight with prime, period. Except the comic didn't say that.
We shall see when the comic comes out.
So before that stop trolling since you haven't read the actual comic yet.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Troll gonna side with the troll, who knew?

Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll?

The sheer arrogance. Youre just not very smart and you perpetually make wacky interpretations. Hence why anyone with a speck of intelligence tends to disagree with you.

Accept your limitations and work on yourself

I laugh at the fact that shitty sites like Comicvine, VSBW,Spacebattles,etl must deal with damage control.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
We don't use books, interviews, wikias, encyclopedias, statements, twitters, ig publications, friend writer's comments to your 7 year old kid, etc as proof.

We are also not 7 yr olds ourselves and im hoping we all want to hold ourselves to higher standards no?

This isnt some bubble reality. There are universally accepted standards when it comes to evidence. Theres a difference between interpretation and conclusive evidence.

All im saying is until we get something conclusive, SBP doesnt officially have this power its just alluded to. So lets wait and see.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

Albert,hello?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Albert,hello?

If there are no limitations with what Batman can use, what power sources or trinkets he can tap then id sat Bats 7/10. That figure could change as we get deeper into King In Black

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Except the comic didn't say that.
We shall see when the comic comes out.
So before that stop trolling since you haven't read the actual comic yet.


Then there would be no point in seeing prime, it's def after the fight. The comic doesn't have to spell things out for you everytime, there's a thing called "visual" learn it

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm sorry to call a spade, a spade my dear. You're just a troll at this point, there's nothing logical about your posts, it's just your conjectures and fanfiction.

Don't like it? Couldn't care less.

Wouldn't conjecture be what you guys are resorting to with this retcon punch talk?

The hypocrisy and ineptitude is mind boggling

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If there are no limitations with what Batman can use, what power sources or trinkets he can tap then id sat Bats 7/10. That figure could change as we get deeper into King In Black

See, we are in agreement (obviously I think higher, but we both agree for the majority). Yet, Albert thinks he can call me ignorant, yet I predict he'll gloss over your post.

People are not as enlightened as you or I.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
ffs you think a fking human can take on Knull and you wanna have the nerves to think that's not ignorance. I'm not accepting a spite match that I know i'm gonna win, we can do any other bz with a self ban on the linfe.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Knull stomps, saint is extremely ignorant on any marvel related topics nothing more.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Then there would be no point in seeing prime, it's def after the fight. The comic doesn't have to spell things out for you everytime, there's a thing called "visual" learn it Except the visual and dialogue didnt support your words.
From the visual I already posted and addressed why I think Darkest Knight vs Wonder Woman takes place before SBP fighting Darkest Knight. So its you should give me solid proofs that this fight takes place after SBP and DNs fight
But you can't, Because you didn't even read the comic yet. So why not waiting until the comic comes out before making conjectural and trolling posts

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See, we are in agreement (obviously I think higher, but we both agree for the majority). Yet, Albert thinks he can call me ignorant, yet I predict he'll gloss over your post.

People are not as enlightened as you or I.

Lets not be so quick to write the guy off like that.

Looking at the posts in that thread perhaps your argument could be stronger in helping others to see the possibilities.

If youd mentioned there were no limits on the resources he could tap, the trinkets he could use then it wouldve put things into perspective better and help win over others to your point of view.

Since ive come back ive noticed that people are too quick to write off others or call em trolls just because of a differing opinion.

But if said people were to review their arguments they would see that they could stand to be stronger.

Not attacking, just an observation.

This new crowd needs to tighten things up.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets not be so quick to write the guy off like that.

Looking at the posts in that thread perhaps your argument could be stronger in helping others to see the possibilities.

If youd mentioned there were no limits on the resources he could tap, the trinkets he could use then it wouldve put things into perspective better and help win over others to your point of view.

Since ive come back ive noticed that people are too quick to write off others or call em trolls just because of a differing opinion.

But if said people were to review their arguments they would see that they could stand to be stronger.

Not attacking, just an observation.

This new crowd needs to tighten things up.

Oh agreed,I did mention though it was for a BZ, so I was just keeping my powder dry, so to speak.

But to arrogantly write off Batman with prep? A. WHOLE year?

Then to accuse ones potential opponent as being ignorant (when I really don't think I've given that impression)? Tsk tsk.

TBH, Alberto is a troll basically is a fact in this forum.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think it's any secret that Alberto is a troll. If people choose to engage with him, that's their business.

Same with the likes of JBL, Mr. Mind, Broly etc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh agreed,I did mention though it was for a BZ, so I was just keeping my powder dry, so to speak.

But to arrogantly write off Batman with prep? A. WHOLE year?

Then to accuse ones potential opponent as being ignorant (when I really don't think I've given that impression)? Tsk tsk.

I dont know if id call writing off Btman as being arrogant. Help him see the possibilities. Thats your job as a debater when making a case. Maybe he just doesnt care for the character and so doesnt read his books and subsequently doesnt know a lot about what he can do. Raise awareness. Im not seeing a lot of scans to back up your perspective so thats a way that you can win people over like him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont know if id call writing off Btman as being arrogant. Help him see the possibilities. Thats your job as a debater when making a case. Maybe he just doesnt care for the character and so doesnt read his books and subsequently doesnt know a lot about what he can do. Raise awareness. Im not seeing a lot of scans to back up your perspective so thats a way that you can win people over like him.

I can tell you're new to him, lol.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
TBH, Alberto is a troll basically is a fact in this forum.

I can only go by what ive witnessed and he strikes me less of a troll and more of someone with views and perspectives that seem at odds with a lot of the current KMC crowd. That isnt a troll.


I just think if people would also look at themselves and the way they construct arguments and the solidity of the evidence they present then they might see some shortfalls which are factors in why people arent being won over

Who knows. Im gonna be around for a little longer so lets see how things turn out

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Except the visual and dialogue didnt support your words.
From the visual I already posted and addressed why I think Darkest Knight vs Wonder Woman takes place before SBP fighting Darkest Knight. So its you should give me solid proofs that this fight takes place after SBP and DNs fight
But you can't, Because you didn't even read the comic yet. So why not waiting until the comic comes out before making conjectural and trolling posts

You can't BE this retarded, the worlds are STILL intact behind the battle
So the supposed worlds he broke are still there, You THEN see Prime in BWL glare incapacitated, or could be dead an inactive Prime. The scan is literally self explanatory, you're just that dense. Stop debating in general my guy

It absolutely takes place after SBP and DN's fight, what I said isn't up fir dispute.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I can only go by what ive witnessed and he strikes me less of a troll and more of someone with views and perspectives that seem at odds with a lot of the current KMC crowd. That isnt a troll.


I just think if people would also look at themselves and the way they construct arguments and the solidity of the evidence they present then they might see some shortfalls which are factors in why people arent being won over

Who knows. Im gonna be around for a little longer so lets see how things turn out I agree with your opinions and views about debaters and how they should do when make a debate.
It just Alberto has a record of trolling........

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
You can't BE this retarded, the worlds are STILL intact behind the battle
So the supposed worlds he broke are still there, You THEN see Prime in BWL glare incapacitated, or could be dead an inactive Prime. The scan is literally self explanatory, you're just that dense. Stop debating in general my guy Wait, First of all, you reverse the order of those scans. WW looks into future and sees SBP, Then the next scan shows worlds are still intact.
And you are contradicting yourself. The comic that SBP fighting with DN end up destroying DN's worlds. And you pointed out in that scan those worlds are still intact. It actually helps me to prove that this fight takes place before SBP and DN's fight.

People who would tank it

Mxy

Spectre

Lucifer

that's it, they are the only ones with concrete feats that they can tank it

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
God Doom, Spectre, Wonder Woman (Hecate), Pre-retcon Beyonder, IG Thanos.

This multiversal/retcon punch at this point is a forum fabrication. There is no conclusive evidence for it. There are certainly allusions to some ability that other Superman analogues dont have but nothing has been confirmed to rule out it being a result of what he was hitting (multiversal structure) and the status at the time of who he was hitting (i.e DK after an extended fight with Perpetua, then fighting SBP whilst simultaneously powering a multiversal transition hence SBPs blows causing changes)

Not saying he doesnt have some extra ability. Just saying it has not been confirmed on panel, its been alluded to and left open to interpretation.

you pick god doom and IG but didn't pick Lucifer and Mxy? wut?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
It absolutely takes place after SBP and DN's fight, what I said isn't up fir dispute. I must say, You're really arrogant to say at least. I mean you don't even have the comic just some preview and yet you still make such claim

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
SBP also changed the history of a corrupted Superman by hitting him.
Also it has been shown multiple times on panel that SBP did have retcon punch(Or whatever name you want to call it) . On the contrary.There is no evidence to prove the theory/fabrication of SBP can change reality is due to his conditions
Put it in simple in this argument the side that arguing SBP needs some certain condition to perform his reality-warping ability should be the one who providing conclusive evidence that SBP needs certain conditions to do a retcon punch, not vice versa
Because the comics have constantly shown SBP can change reality/break reality and never specifically mentioned it was due to some certain conditions to allow SBP to do that.

🤦‍♂️ He didn't break reality there, those were his dreams of a perfect earth where he is loved and not hated. Which were gone when he delivered the final blow and died.
the only reason it happened and was even possible is because the wall between the universe and Paradise Dimension was physically manifested in front of him, he wanted to break it and jump into the universe but could only damage it which altered events, then with Alex Luthor's help, empowering him with Anti-Matter power he managed to break free after hours of punching and managed to slip into the universe.
it ONLY happened because of the place he was in and because of the wall, it's not something that happens in any normal place and mid fight, he can't for example fight someone and be like "oh ok I'll retcon punch him out of existence durr ".

It's not something applicable in any debate, period.

People definition of a troll on KMC - someone that disagrees with them. Lol

Originally posted by MrMind
People who would tank it

Mxy

Spectre

Lucifer

that's it, they are the only ones with concrete feats that they can tank it



you pick god doom and IG but didn't pick Lucifer and Mxy? wut?

Legion came back from being wiped from existence. He even wiped himself out of existence and came back quickly to be inside of another person's mind.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
🤦‍♂️ He didn't break reality there, those were his dreams of a perfect earth where he is loved and not hated. Which were gone when he delivered the final blow and died.
the only reason it happened and was even possible is because the wall between the universe and Paradise Dimension was physically manifested in front of him, he wanted to break it and jump into the universe but could only damage it which altered events, then with Alex Luthor's help, empowering him with Anti-Matter power he managed to break free after hours of punching and managed to slip into the universe.
it ONLY happened because of the place he was in and because of the wall, it's not something that happens in any normal place and mid fight, he can't for example fight someone and be like "oh ok I'll retcon punch him out of existence durr ".

It's not something applicable in any debate, period. It was a shame that none of those you said actually stated on comics.
Actually, Some comic completely opposing what you said
"or maybe it was a trick or something, but.....I know it's not.Im home.Im really back"
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin/Full?id=179488#34
So keep your headcanon for yourslef

Edit:Also weren't the heroes who said DN's multiverse was vanishing? So how did it have anything to do with SBP dreams?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin/Full?id=179488#29

Originally posted by carver9
People definition of a troll on KMC - someone that disagrees with them. Lol

I just quote Pr, tbh.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
It was a shame that none of those you said actually stated on comics.
Actually, Some comic completely opposing what you said
"or maybe it was a trick or something, but.....I know it's not.Im home.Im really back"
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin/Full?id=179488#34
So keep your headcanon for yourslef

Edit:Also weren't the heroes who said DN's multiverse was vanishing? So how did it have anything to do with SBP dreams?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin/Full?id=179488#29

the ending has nothing to do with SBP's power. He actually died. It's just that WW brings him back at the end of Death metal and recreates his timeline

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the ending has nothing to do with SBP's power. He actually died. It's just that WW brings him back at the end of Death metal and recreates his timeline So we both agree that DN's multiverse should be vanishing after SBP and DN's fight? But from the scan that you referred to those worlds are still intact. Thus it was reasonable to say this fight takes place before SBP and DN's fight
Concession accepted

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So we both agree that DN's multiverse should be vanishing after SBP and DN's fight? But from the scan that you referred to those worlds are still intact. Thus it was reasonable to say this fight takes place before SBP and DN's fight
Concession accepted

You interpreted that as agreeing with you? Yeah no you're still hugely wrong. "Should" isn't the same as definite.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
You interpreted that as agreeing with you? Yeah no you're still hugely wrong. "Should" isn't the same as definite. Because Im not some arrogant, ineducable dude with severe illusory superiority complex.
Ill wait until the actual comic comes out and read it before making a determined claim or even using it as a proof in a debate.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Because Im not some arrogant, ineducable dude with severe illusory superiority complex.
Ill wait until the actual comic comes out and read it before making a determined claim or even using it as a proof in a debate.

You didn't say anything relevant, what happened in the end isn't even explained, even Prime doesn't know what happened exactly. The fact still remains that he died and his corpse is still there lying on the ground getting licked by Krypto.

for the worlds that the BWL summoned, it was SAID they were vanishing but they were still there if you read the "Death Metal the Latest 52" where the worlds were still there and they were all still fighting.
Also him changing those earths isn't done by him directly, it's literally shown in the scan that he is questioning the possibility of changing them THROUGH killing BWL.

Prime after the events of Infinite Crisis and prior Death Metal, was pushed to his limits in some fights, sometimes he had to try hard, yet none of his attacks even retconned anything. It's not an "ability" unique to him, period.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
You didn't say anything relevant, what happened in the end isn't even explained, even Prime doesn't know what happened exactly. The fact still remains that he died and his corpse is still there lying on the ground getting licked by Krypto.

for the worlds that the BWL summoned, it was SAID they were vanishing but they were still there if you read the "Death Metal the Latest 52" where the worlds were still there and they were all still fighting.
Also him changing those earths isn't done by him directly, it's literally shown in the scan that he is questioning the possibility of changing them THROUGH killing BWL.
Death Metal the Latest 52 is before SBP and DNs fight
As you can see in Superman's story, until the last two scans Cyborg Superman,Zod, Lex joined Superman
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Last-52-War-of-the-Multiverses/TPB?id=179776#25
And during SBP's story, Superman already teamed up with them and fought those corrupted Supermen
https://postimg.cc/bsc7WCX4
Again, You help me further prove my point LMAO

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Prime after the events of Infinite Crisis and prior Death Metal, was pushed to his limits in some fights, sometimes he had to try hard, yet none of his attacks even retconned anything. It's not an "ability" unique to him, period. So SBP didn't use an ability in a period of time=he didn't have this ability?
So according to your logic, Is Flash not possessing speed steal ability since they aren't always using it?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So SBP didn't use an ability in a period of time=he didn't have this ability?
So according to your logic, Is Flash not possessing speed steal ability since they aren't always using it?

the retcon punch comes from him hitting hard at the very least if not giving it his all. However he did give it his all after Infinite Crisis and prior Death Metal, it never happened. BECAUSE prior Death Metal, the retcon punch happened under very specific conditions. You blatantly ignore THAT fact

will you stop trolling, it's new year eve, why are you doing this?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
the retcon punch comes from him hitting hard at the very least if not giving it his all. However he did give it his all after Infinite Crisis and prior Death Metal, it never happened. BECAUSE prior Death Metal, the retcon punch happened under very specific conditions. You blatantly ignore THAT fact Nope, The comics never stated how SBP's reality-warping ability works. We just knew he has the ability.And performed multiple times and to date no specific proof to prove he needs specific conditions to do that.
But we saw him changing reality by hitting a corrupted version of Superman. And we saw him changing reality by hitting phantom zone where he didn't have any multiversal people or structures to hit etc.
So as far as we can see what the comics stated/demonstrated. Yes, SBP indeed has reality-warping ability and it can be used when he hitting his opponents/targets.

Sbp has reality warping ability, but not on speed dial and not on command. It can be quite random, but more consistent in very favorable circumstances.

Reality warping punch, and multiverse destroying punch are two different things altogether. Why is the Batman Who Laughs touted as being so great? I'm not saying that he isn't powerful, but he simply didn't show anything that placed him above Monarch when compared to his performance against Superboy Prime. Maybe it's just me though? I mean what makes him different than TOBA Hulk? People argued that it took TOBA Hulk quite a bit of time to destroy everything, and yet I didn't see the Batman Who Laughs snap his fingers and whisk everything away in his battle against Perpetua, who was also carried to heights that she didn't belong at due to hype.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Nope, The comics never stated how SBP's reality-warping ability works. We just knew he has the ability.And performed multiple times and to date no specific proof to prove he needs specific conditions to do that.
But we saw him changing reality by hitting a corrupted version of Superman. And we saw him changing reality by hitting phantom zone where he didn't have any multiversal people or structures to hit etc.
So as far as we can see what the comics stated/demonstrated. Yes, SBP indeed has reality-warping ability and it can be used when he hitting his opponents/targets.

Bro.

Youre doing it again. Its alluded to but not conclusive. Its how youve interpreted it based on the circumstances, however as i demonstrated in that SBP vs Eternity thread there are other ways of interpreting said circumstances that dont involve SBP having a reality warping ability. Why? Because its not conclusive its open to interpretation, suggested even, but not confirmed.

Show one scene where its flat out stated that he has a reality warping ability as opposed to it just being alluded to?

- well hmmm-

Originally posted by Stoic
- well hmmm-

Ive come back and its what people have resorted to.

The standard of evidence has fallen hard.

People dont get or dont acknowledge the difference between their interpretations and whats conclusive.

If you truly believe that an interpretation is correct, then thats cool, make a case for it but be prepared to discuss a scenario where your interpretation is accepted as true and also discuss a battle scenario where your interpretation isnt true. Why? Because its inconclusive.

You cant parade around personal interpretations as the gospel truth when they're not explicitly backed by an official source.

Whats worse is people are getting angry and calling other members trolls because said members arent swallowing their personal interpretations.

Whats KMC coming to? lol

Chill people. Lets get a hold of ourselves and bring back the standards

Give me an example of one instance of 'conclusive evidence'. Did you learn about that concept yesterday or something?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive come back and its what people have resorted to.

The standard of evidence has fallen hard.

People dont get or dont acknowledge the difference between their interpretations and whats conclusive.

If you truly believe that an interpretation is correct, then thats cool, make a case for it but be prepared to discuss a scenario where your interpretation is accepted as true and also discuss a battle scenario where your interpretation isnt true. Why? Because its inconclusive.

You cant parade around personal interpretations as the gospel truth when they're not explicitly backed by an official source.

Whats worse is people are getting angry and calling other members trolls because said members arent swallowing their personal interpretations.

Whats KMC coming to? lol

Chill people. Lets get a hold of ourselves and bring back the standards

It's been a bullshit festival for a while now. People have based their opinions on flimsy notions that did little to show how well these propped up characters would do in actual combat. We saw the Darkest Knight defeat Perpetua, and in turn get beaten by Superboy Prime. The very same Superboy Prime had a tougher fight against Monarch. Monarch wasn't a multiversal being. He was powerful, but Mxy powerful? Hell No. I'm left scratching my head to the raw meat over the mess that Snyder presented.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Give me an example of one instance of 'conclusive evidence'. Did you learn about that concept yesterday or something?

Why are you so hostile?

Relax yourself and try and take in what im saying objectively.

Ive never had any interactions with you before today but youre acting like i took a shit in your cereal this morning. Chill and have a grown up, civil discussion.

That should be the default introduction to someone.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Give me an example of one instance of 'conclusive evidence'.

In the case of SBP and his retcon punch, he would conclusively have a reality altering ability if it was flat out stated on panel, either through writer narration or confirmed via character statement that he has this ability.

At the moment he's hitting things and its unclear wherever any subsequent effects are as a result of an innate ability he possesses or its due to the circumstances/situation he was in. I.e hitting a structure of multiversal significance, hitting Darkest Knight whilst he was powering reality alterations (thereby providing an explanation for the changes to reality) etc

Whether you find these alternate interpretations as convincing as the one you endorse or not isnt the point. The fact that its open to being interpreted in more than one way and a Dc source hasnt laid it out explicitly is the point.

So as i said before, people need to accept when something is open to interpretation and make a case for what they believe whilst openly acknowledging that their evidence isnt conclusive but what evidence is there leads them to take on a certain viewpoint.

Originally posted by Stoic
It's been a bullshit festival for a while now. People have based their opinions on flimsy notions that did little to show how well these propped up characters would do in actual combat. We saw the Darkest Knight defeat Perpetua, and in turn get beaten by Superboy Prime. The very same Superboy Prime had a tougher fight against Monarch. Monarch wasn't a multiversal being. He was powerful, but Mxy powerful? Hell No. I'm left scratching my head to the raw meat over the mess that Snyder presented.

Its because people are using the most basic ABC logic and not considering context.

SBP defeating DK doesn't place SBP on a DK level and mean he is capable of defeating anyone of that power level and below.

He expended a lot of energy on an extended battle with Perpetua, then began making large scale alterations to reality and mentioned that he was actively powering this whilst fighting SBP so he didnt want to divert any power to defeat SBP. There's no evidence that he did divert said power during that battle.

Its my belief that given the events ive just mentioned and the basic way he was fighting SBP, he was operating at a reduced power level.

SBP never fought a fresh DK, only Perpetua did therefore theres no justification to amp SBP up to ridiculous levels.

He has an inherent ability to affect reality.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Nope, The comics never stated how SBP's reality-warping ability works. We just knew he has the ability.And performed multiple times and to date no specific proof to prove he needs specific conditions to do that.
But we saw him changing reality by hitting a corrupted version of Superman. And we saw him changing reality by hitting phantom zone where he didn't have any multiversal people or structures to hit etc.
So as far as we can see what the comics stated/demonstrated. Yes, SBP indeed has reality-warping ability and it can be used when he hitting his opponents/targets.

Opinions differ from yours on the connection of the corrupted Superman and Phantom Zone to the multiverse:

Originally posted by Galan007
SBP does seem to need a 'target' of sorts to effect those kind of changes -- specifically one that is connected to the multiverse in some esoteric way. In the first instance the target was the walls of the Limbo realm, in the second instance the target was the wall/border of the Phantom Zone, in the third instance the target was the Darkest Night and/or his lackeys.

To date, Prime hasn't just thrown his fists into thin air and altered the multiverse.


That said, Prime did somehow did manage to bust from the 3rd dimension into the 5th dimension to kidnap Mxy during Countdown:
https://ibb.co/Brsv1xt
...But he also had the Guardian amp at the time, and that action didn't have any adverse effects on the rest of creation.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
He has an inherent ability to affect reality.

Read my posts.

He doesnt conclusively. Its open to interpretation. If thats your interpretation due to what evidence is there then cool i understand that interpretation and see how you came to it. However its not an ability thats been confirmed officially thus far, just alluded to.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Read my posts.

He doesnt conclusively. Its open to interpretation. If thats your interpretation due to what evidence is there then cool i understand that interpretation and see how you came to it. However its not an ability thats been confirmed officially thus far, just alluded to.



The evidence hower really really leans towards it.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I don't side with you in general, you're an idiot, stop derailing my thread with your feels.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll?

The sheer arrogance. Youre just not very smart and you perpetually make wacky interpretations. Hence why anyone with a speck of intelligence tends to disagree with you.

Accept your limitations and work on yourself
No, but you and Alberto are just trolls. That's a fact.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In the case of SBP and his retcon punch, he would conclusively have a reality altering ability if it was flat out stated on panel, either through writer narration or confirmed via character statement that he has this ability.
We know the changes he has made just by punching things and

Galan posted this in the other thread.
https://i.imgur.com/uUNB3d8.jpg
There you have it clear on panel narration that when he punches he can alter reality.

Those reality changes retconned character histories. It's also not just brainless anger induced hulk type punching.
https://i.imgur.com/DUDULym.jpg

He can see the changes while it happens, as when he was punching the corrupt supermen and actually sort through the reality changes.



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the moment he's hitting things and its unclear wherever any subsequent effects are as a result of an innate ability he possesses or its due to the circumstances/situation he was in. I.e hitting a structure of multiversal significance, hitting Darkest Knight whilst he was powering reality alterations (thereby providing an explanation for the changes to reality) etc
I'll add one more item to your list.

3. hitting DK's creations.

Throughout SBP's history it has been made abundantly clear that he can alter reality, retcon character history.
When he hits things as you've mentioned and when he just punches in empty space like he did when he broke out of the Phantom Zone.

No one else has replicated this so it's logical to assume that it is the result of his innate ability.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Whether you find these alternate interpretations as convincing as the one you endorse or not isnt the point. The fact that its open to being interpreted in more than one way and a Dc source hasnt laid it out explicitly is the point.

So as i said before, people need to accept when something is open to interpretation and make a case for what they believe whilst openly acknowledging that their evidence isnt conclusive but what evidence is there leads them to take on a certain viewpoint.

Bro, there is no alternate interpretation. You think that these events are open to interpretation because you made erroneous assumptions.
Lets look at some of these.
1- That changes can be made if anyone (not just sbp) can incapacitate or kill an alternate superman.

This is incorrect.
A. Comic clearly states that all SBP had to do was hit those DK corrupted characters, not Kill, or incapacitate. That was your assumption that went against on panel statement.
B. You said it had to be a Corrupted superman. Can you provide proof from the comic? The comic states "This imaginary stories reject". All of DK's corrupted characters can fit under this criteria. Finally,
C. Superman incapacitated the same corrupted superman and there were no reality changes. superman knocked the other corrupted one out with a single punch. So that punch was just as hard as the one SBP threw. Only SBP's punch made the change.


Onto your 2nd erroneous assumption.
"Darkest Knight whilst he was powering reality alterations".
Really? When a reality manipulator, re-writes reality, is he always powering those reality alterations? Do you have on panel statement or or narration to prove that dk was powering his reality alterations? If you can't then it's a false assumption.


Even if he was powering them, he had made those alterations prior to his battle with Perpetua. A battle that raged across every facet of reality. When she was hitting him, there were no changes other than maybe reality destruction, But when SBP hits him, we have reality changes. Further proof that SBP has this innate ability.


We have enough evidence in the comic and throughout SBP's history that he has this innate ability to change reality. The evidence in the origins comic from last week and SBP's history with on panel evidence, statements and narration leave nothing open to interpretation. If there is another interpretation, it is a misinterpretation based off of lack of knowledge of character and his history and the recent events that are shaping DCU. This isn't a knock on you, not everyone has read every comic in existence, except maybe Alberto, or so he says.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro.

Youre doing it again. Its alluded to but not conclusive. Its how youve interpreted it based on the circumstances, however as i demonstrated in that SBP vs Eternity thread there are other ways of interpreting said circumstances that dont involve SBP having a reality warping ability. Why? Because its not conclusive its open to interpretation, suggested even, but not confirmed.

Show one scene where its flat out stated that he has a reality warping ability as opposed to it just being alluded to?
Alexander literally said SBP's punch changing the reality
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Infinite-Crisis-Secret-Files-2006/Full?id=107443#18

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Opinions differ from yours on the connection of the corrupted Superman and Phantom Zone to the multiverse: It was fine though. Galan said connected to the multiverse in some esoteric way.
So the question is how SBP's retcon punch gets triggered/how is his target linked to multiverse. And based on corrupted Superman and phantom zone instances, SBP really just needs hits something. Though I admit that SBP himself didnt know how to use it or trigger it. So there is no no guarantee that he would use it in a fight.
But that isnt what im arguing. Im arguging SBP has this ability. It inheres in SBP

Originally posted by Diesldude
We know the changes he has made just by punching things and

Galan posted this in the other thread.
https://i.imgur.com/uUNB3d8.jpg
There you have it clear on panel narration that when he punches he can alter reality.

Those reality changes retconned character histories. It's also not just brainless anger induced hulk type punching.
https://i.imgur.com/DUDULym.jpg

He can see the changes while it happens, as when he was punching the corrupt supermen and actually sort through the reality changes.




I'll add one more item to your list.

3. hitting DK's creations.

Throughout SBP's history it has been made abundantly clear that he can alter reality, retcon character history.
When he hits things as you've mentioned and when he just punches in empty space like he did when he broke out of the Phantom Zone.

No one else has replicated this so it's logical to assume that it is the result of his innate ability.




Bro, there is no alternate interpretation. You think that these events are open to interpretation because you made erroneous assumptions.
Lets look at some of these.
1- That changes can be made if anyone (not just sbp) can incapacitate or kill an alternate superman.

This is incorrect.
A. Comic clearly states that all SBP had to do was hit those DK corrupted characters, not Kill, or incapacitate. That was your assumption that went against on panel statement.
B. You said it had to be a Corrupted superman. Can you provide proof from the comic? The comic states "This imaginary stories reject". All of DK's corrupted characters can fit under this criteria. Finally,
C. Superman incapacitated the same corrupted superman and there were no reality changes. superman knocked the other corrupted one out with a single punch. So that punch was just as hard as the one SBP threw. Only SBP's punch made the change.


Onto your 2nd erroneous assumption.
"Darkest Knight whilst he was powering reality alterations".
Really? When a reality manipulator, re-writes reality, is he always powering those reality alterations? Do you have on panel statement or or narration to prove that dk was powering his reality alterations? If you can't then it's a false assumption.


Even if he was powering them, he had made those alterations prior to his battle with Perpetua. A battle that raged across every facet of reality. When she was hitting him, there were no changes other than maybe reality destruction, But when SBP hits him, we have reality changes. Further proof that SBP has this innate ability.


We have enough evidence in the comic and throughout SBP's history that he has this innate ability to change reality. The evidence in the origins comic from last week and SBP's history with on panel evidence, statements and narration leave nothing open to interpretation. If there is another interpretation, it is a misinterpretation based off of lack of knowledge of character and his history and the recent events that are shaping DCU. This isn't a knock on you, not everyone has read every comic in existence, except maybe Alberto, or so he says.

You're wrong on all acounts, but tell me how the retcon punch is relevant here. when he killed Xavier years before he was born, Legion wiped himself out of existence without realizing it. He came back from that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where are you in my BZ challenge? 6 month self-ban, Batman with 1 year prep against Knull with 0 prep, fight in the Grand Canyon?

Also this

Originally posted by Diesldude
We know the changes he has made just by punching things and

Galan posted this in the other thread.
https://i.imgur.com/uUNB3d8.jpg
There you have it clear on panel narration that when he punches he can alter reality.

Those reality changes retconned character histories. It's also not just brainless anger induced hulk type punching.
https://i.imgur.com/DUDULym.jpg

He can see the changes while it happens, as when he was punching the corrupt supermen and actually sort through the reality changes.




I'll add one more item to your list.

3. hitting DK's creations.

Throughout SBP's history it has been made abundantly clear that he can alter reality, retcon character history.
When he hits things as you've mentioned and when he just punches in empty space like he did when he broke out of the Phantom Zone.

No one else has replicated this so it's logical to assume that it is the result of his innate ability.




Bro, there is no alternate interpretation. You think that these events are open to interpretation because you made erroneous assumptions.
Lets look at some of these.
1- That changes can be made if anyone (not just sbp) can incapacitate or kill an alternate superman.

This is incorrect.
A. Comic clearly states that all SBP had to do was hit those DK corrupted characters, not Kill, or incapacitate. That was your assumption that went against on panel statement.
B. You said it had to be a Corrupted superman. Can you provide proof from the comic? The comic states "This imaginary stories reject". All of DK's corrupted characters can fit under this criteria. Finally,
C. Superman incapacitated the same corrupted superman and there were no reality changes. superman knocked the other corrupted one out with a single punch. So that punch was just as hard as the one SBP threw. Only SBP's punch made the change.


Onto your 2nd erroneous assumption.
"Darkest Knight whilst he was powering reality alterations".
Really? When a reality manipulator, re-writes reality, is he always powering those reality alterations? Do you have on panel statement or or narration to prove that dk was powering his reality alterations? If you can't then it's a false assumption.


Even if he was powering them, he had made those alterations prior to his battle with Perpetua. A battle that raged across every facet of reality. When she was hitting him, there were no changes other than maybe reality destruction, But when SBP hits him, we have reality changes. Further proof that SBP has this innate ability.


We have enough evidence in the comic and throughout SBP's history that he has this innate ability to change reality. The evidence in the origins comic from last week and SBP's history with on panel evidence, statements and narration leave nothing open to interpretation. If there is another interpretation, it is a misinterpretation based off of lack of knowledge of character and his history and the recent events that are shaping DCU. This isn't a knock on you, not everyone has read every comic in existence, except maybe Alberto, or so he says.

you're not using the suitable scans. Those are all from Infinite Crisis event when he was hitting the wall, therefore causing these changes. Don't try to crop it and leave most of the panels out.
The only scan so far that indicates his punches being able to change shit is when he was hitting the "corrupted Superman" as you like to call him, and even then the only the place he came from apparently started to change, and on a limited scale, his foe remain unaffected by those changes. Not to mention those "retcon punches" didn't apply at all when he was hitting the BWL. Despite him giving it his all.

Prime punches them so hard it destabilizes the Multiverse, weakening TOAA and then raping him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I can only go by what ive witnessed and he strikes me less of a troll and more of someone with views and perspectives that seem at odds with a lot of the current KMC crowd. That isnt a troll.


I just think if people would also look at themselves and the way they construct arguments and the solidity of the evidence they present then they might see some shortfalls which are factors in why people arent being won over

Who knows. Im gonna be around for a little longer so lets see how things turn out Thing is GS current KMC Vs. Is how it always should have been if people knew comics in the past. I almost never come in here now, because the consensus down here is generally spot on.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why are you so hostile?

Relax yourself and try and take in what im saying objectively.

Ive never had any interactions with you before today but youre acting like i took a shit in your cereal this morning. Chill and have a grown up, civil discussion.

That should be the default introduction to someone. I'm not being hostile, I just find it somewhat funny that you believe this whole 'conclusive evidence' argument is this enlightening concept everyone but you is oblivious to. It's pretty standard knowledge for any debater on this site and has been for the 7-ish years I've been on the site.

Feats always get spun around and 'debunked' because of our particular rules regarding citing 'official sources'. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why it is how it is.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He expended a lot of energy on an extended battle with Perpetua, then began making large scale alterations to reality and mentioned that he was actively powering this whilst fighting SBP so he didnt want to divert any power to defeat SBP. There's no evidence that he did divert said power during that battle.

Its my belief that given the events ive just mentioned and the basic way he was fighting SBP, he was operating at a reduced power level.

SBP never fought a fresh DK, only Perpetua did therefore theres no justification to amp SBP up to ridiculous levels. I would like to see conclusive evidence for this.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Tell galan they aren't suitable. look at the entire page, they weren't taken out of context and more importantly you missed my point. That he has a history of performing these shenanigan.

Three questions for you my halfwit fellow kmc user.
1. if he needs a wall, what did he hit to break out of the phantom zone?
2.if reality changes if anyone hits one of those corrupted supermen why didn't it change when Superman knocked one out?
3. Perpetua was battling DK across all of reality but nothing changed like sbp's changes. Why? I know your post wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd weigh-in...

First off, I originally posted those panels from IC to convey the fact that even Alex Luthor was awestruck by the effect that Prime's punches were having on the whole of reality -- he had absolutely no clue how or why such a thing was possible. All he knew is that reality was being restructured before his eyes.

And as has been mentioned ad nauseam: even though Prime had a fixed location/nexus point to strike, that obviously isn't a feat that any random character can replicate. We know this because Kal-L furiously punched/shattered those same walls "for what seems like hours", and caused no repercussions to reality:
https://ibb.co/0ZDTbtB
https://ibb.co/ZGthQ0P

_______________________


1.) In that particular scene, the artistic/authorial intent seemed to be that Prime was punching the mirror-like 'wall' of the Phantom Zone itself, imo. Hence this:
https://i.ibb.co/n0KHzPG/4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GR4YtV3/5.jpg

Full scene:
https://ibb.co/K6ySPYx
https://ibb.co/2KtXVXR
https://ibb.co/KGbnB1v
https://ibb.co/Kbjg050
https://ibb.co/P5JtLRv

I understand that the PZ having a defined space and/or bordering walls doesn't make much sense, but different writers often do whatever they want in cases like this(especially those involving Prime.) Now as for how punching out of the PZ could have altered continuity: I have no rational explanation for that. The PZ isn't historically defined as a multiversal nexus point(certainly not in the same way the Limbo realm or DN are)... But as mentioned in the above scene- that's just what Prime does(nonsensical as it may be):
https://i.ibb.co/xMw3kyt/u.jpg

_______________________


2.) Indeed. When Prime struck the Superman knockoff(aka. "Saint", his native world/reality was altered as a direct corollary:
https://ibb.co/qd4JzGS

Yet when the mainstream Supermen beat the shit out of Saint, his world/reality was never stated(or implied) to have been altered as a result:
https://ibb.co/YXXyRTG
https://ibb.co/mDqC1Qx

At this point it is abundantly clear that Prime's punches have an innate ability to alter/affect reality in ways no other being(barring high-end reality manipulators) can... When connecting with certain 'targets' that are in some way intrinsically tied-to creation.

This is an 'ability' that even Rip Hunter mentioned(and found ridiculous) after the events of IC:
https://ibb.co/sKxxMfG
"Everything in history predating the re-creation of the multiverse has gone malleable. Thanks mostly to Mr. Mind and that Kryptonian boy's tantrums, which I still find ridiculous to believe...Punching history. Please..."

But it is what it is... /shrug

_______________________


3.) Indeed. The battle between Perpetua and DN was being waged across every facet of reality, for multiple issues(to the point where the Source/Overvoid sent in the Chronicler to observe the multiverse's end):
https://ibb.co/bg6MSzx
https://ibb.co/whYLdWV

...Yet even Perpetua's attacks were never implied to have subsequently altered DN's creation in a similar manner to Prime's strikes:
https://ibb.co/LY0LZjj
https://ibb.co/51KvGJW
https://ibb.co/C04WWcv



Not sure why Prime being able to punch continuity so hard that it switches forms is being lowballed/downplayed to such extremes..? The fact that it is completely illogical doesn't change the fact that he's... Done it.

Galan check out the death metal 7 spoiler I posted in comic book discussion thread

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think it's any secret that Alberto is a troll. If people choose to engage with him, that's their business.

Originally posted by MrMind
Galan check out the death metal 7 spoiler I posted in comic book discussion thread I read it and it looks legit.

Originally posted by Galan007
You could very well be right. That's just how I have always looked at the PZ scene, personally.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Except none of this proves Prime can "Retcon" reality, it's a forum myth, always has been. I'll debunk all of this in a few again

The fact that reality Changed proves it and this:
https://i.imgur.com/uUNB3d8.jpg

That's on panel evidence.

Originally posted by Galan007
You could very well be right. That's just how I have always looked at the PZ scene, personally. I think the best way to look at this is, given that Geoff Johns wrote both of them, is how he writes the Phantom Zone.

This exact same Phantom Zone effect was shown when Zod trapped Superman in the Phantom Zone:

https://i.ibb.co/2FTJ4Yz/Z-IWLo0-ZMAOHSABy-Th-Hp-Xsg-Id52n-Tm9u-Sqaj-Amo-OM8-Glzc-Om-K4l5n2t9-Co-g-O-fwvgbr5u-G3kb9-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/s3JFq65/HQ0-Mpz-Hzt-hgmf8v-VGZe-A8m-WUa-QYD8-Mjm-Xqt-Go83-KSx-3l2-Tp-Bpzu-NOwh-VKkbje-Oj-Qds-Tb-Tva-YUy-s160.jpg

Now, that is from the outside perspective. What is visible from inside the Phantom Zone? This:

https://i.ibb.co/Vjt8yYv/Gys-LIFa-VB6m-PPQr-O8sn-Gqm-Wcavo8-OSm-LYNf-Tcz-Ym-Gll-EJNI9-OXkq3-M0hw-XNi8m-QS-il8-KGyow02r-s1600.jpg

You can see the main Universe from there. But how?

Well, it's explained here:

https://i.ibb.co/Fq1zsL8/YHrkq-MBs2-UOkx-Oe0n16-Opi-EKP7mv-Wg-AGjx-ZBOUx-ETt-Ef-Ey-Ji-TZj-Yw-LG1q7h-XGur-WGq-Dlyj-AVp-OSG-s16.jpg https://i.ibb.co/fpd4jQn/f-G-XYVUq-KFHe-WOy-Kb-GE6-SFYijo3-Iq93s0-KJor-DOi-FS1u0n-ULDEqbpf-EHcvb-WEr5-Nls68-Tb-IVmtfq-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/7RVyX6R/6pym-N5-Icqv-Uho-Esdahpj-I-0-O1h-Z-w-Fqg-HQWJb-K6-T8p9-Tqcd0tarz-Ih-Yejb2-CNYm-N09-ZDw08-Wm-BK-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ggc097f/s-Bjrrmita221-p-PEOZZoy7pot-RIRVTAAz-AJA3068l-Ln-GHQK0-Kz-VDa-TUy447-Xyz-KHLrmb-A8ie-CY17-s1600.jpg

1). Those are just 'leaks' of images/sounds.
2). You become a Phantom inside there

So essentially, Prime at best punched the echos of the mainstream so hard that it retconned the history of Beast Boy in the mainstream DCU itself.

It's like me punching my laptop showing a youtube video of Nickelback while I'm on Apokolips and retconning the real life Nickelback into Santana.

So...yeah. He seems to just need not to punch 'air' - i.e. he can punch reality walls , he can punch images/sounds , or he can punch characters , and he reality warps. And even then -- the fact that he punched to the 5th dimension while he was Superman Prime lends doubt even to that fact. It seems he can punch hard to trigger his reality warping at will.

isn't there an scan that proved Phantom Zone is infinite in size?

Yes, it is.

Originally posted by MrMind
isn't there an scan that proved Phantom Zone is infinite in size?

Wouldn't Superman know this?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d4e33c447fef9a26c9558f80da4dde3c

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
No he wasn't you moron BWL was fighting Perpetua for a while BEFORE he stabilized the Earth. Him stabilizing the Earth has NOTHING to do with him EXPENDING energies in his fight with her.
You keep acting like his nonexistent "Retcon" punch matters in a vs battle or those that it wouldn't effect like Legion, Legion and even Kang as well as Thawne are Singularities, Legion CAME BACK from inadvertently ERASING himself from existence. That feat triggered the creation of the Age of Apocalypse reality. Legion came back from that. Years later, Legion came back from INTENTIONALLY erasing himself from existence when he INTENTIONALLY came back inside of a person's mind.

Do me a big favor and hang yourself so i don't have to keep seeing your posts everyday, its cringe AF.

Well if you take my BZ challenge up and lose, you won't have to see his posts any longer.

Originally posted by Galan007
I know your post wasn't directed at me, but I thought I'd weigh-in...

First off, I originally posted those panels from IC to convey the fact that even Alex Luthor was awestruck by the effect that Prime's punches were having on the whole of reality -- he had absolutely no clue how or why such a thing was possible. All he knew is that reality was being restructured before his eyes.

And as has been mentioned ad nauseam: even though Prime had a fixed location/nexus point to strike, that obviously isn't a feat that any random character can replicate. We know this because Kal-L furiously punched/shattered those same walls "for what seems like hours", and caused no repercussions to reality:
https://ibb.co/0ZDTbtB
https://ibb.co/ZGthQ0P

_______________________


1.) In that particular scene, the artistic/authorial intent seemed to be that Prime was punching the mirror-like 'wall' of the Phantom Zone itself, imo. Hence this:
https://i.ibb.co/n0KHzPG/4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/GR4YtV3/5.jpg

Full scene:
https://ibb.co/K6ySPYx
https://ibb.co/2KtXVXR
https://ibb.co/KGbnB1v
https://ibb.co/Kbjg050
https://ibb.co/P5JtLRv

I understand that the PZ having a defined space and/or bordering walls doesn't make much sense, but different writers often do whatever they want in cases like this(especially those involving Prime.) Now as for how punching out of the PZ could have altered continuity: I have no rational explanation for that. The PZ isn't historically defined as a multiversal nexus point(certainly not in the same way the Limbo realm or DN are)... But as mentioned in the above scene- that's just what Prime does(nonsensical as it may be):
https://i.ibb.co/xMw3kyt/u.jpg

_______________________


2.) Indeed. When Prime struck the Superman knockoff(aka. "Saint", his native world/reality was altered as a direct corollary:
https://ibb.co/qd4JzGS

Yet when the mainstream Supermen beat the shit out of Saint, his world/reality was never stated(or implied) to have been altered as a result:
https://ibb.co/YXXyRTG
https://ibb.co/mDqC1Qx

At this point it is abundantly clear that Prime's punches have an innate ability to alter/affect reality in ways no other being(barring high-end reality manipulators) can... When connecting with certain 'targets' that are in some way intrinsically tied-to creation.

This is an 'ability' that even Rip Hunter mentioned(and found ridiculous) after the events of IC:
https://ibb.co/sKxxMfG
"Everything in history predating the re-creation of the multiverse has gone malleable. Thanks mostly to Mr. Mind and that Kryptonian boy's tantrums, which I still find ridiculous to believe...Punching history. Please..."

But it is what it is... /shrug

_______________________


3.) Indeed. The battle between Perpetua and DN was being waged across every facet of reality, for multiple issues(to the point where the Source/Overvoid sent in the Chronicler to observe the multiverse's end):
https://ibb.co/bg6MSzx
https://ibb.co/whYLdWV

...Yet even Perpetua's attacks were never implied to have subsequently altered DN's creation in a similar manner to Prime's strikes:
https://ibb.co/LY0LZjj
https://ibb.co/51KvGJW
https://ibb.co/C04WWcv



Not sure why Prime being able to punch continuity so hard that it switches forms is being lowballed/downplayed to such extremes..? The fact that it is completely illogical doesn't change the fact that he's... Done it.

Anyways, Galan, you're wrong in all accounts point blank

1. His "history" with retcon punches prior Death Metal revolved around the three times he punched the wall in Infinite Crisis.
First two times he only damaged it, and was tired. And the third time he was amped by Luthor's Anti Matter power. That's it. It was never done again because the conditions weren't met.

2.Fast forward to present times, after fans lost their minds around it, DC tried to force it in the present stories, not only it didn't make sense, but it also contradicted prior fights by not occuring in them.

3. SBP's fight with DK didn't change reality, those mirror like parts of the panels aren't something that was physically manifested, those were his dreams of a perfect earth, where he is considered a hero not a villain.

Inorder to use his "retcon" punch and make it applicable in debates, it needs more context and needs to actually happen on a full scale AND on a whim, not under specific conditions, period.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Opinions differ from yours on the connection of the corrupted Superman and Phantom Zone to the multiverse:

Originally posted by Galan007

1.) The PZ isn't historically defined as a multiversal nexus point(certainly not in the same way the Limbo realm or DN are)... But as mentioned in the above scene- that's just what Prime does(nonsensical as it may be):


Interesting. Hulkster, any comment? You seem a BIG fan of quoting mods

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Inorder to use his "retcon" punch and make it applicable in debates, it needs more context and needs to actually happen on a full scale AND on a whim, not under specific conditions, period. https://i.ibb.co/58KnVZG/Untitled.jpg


...So are you saying I should close your thread, then? mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.ibb.co/58KnVZG/Untitled.jpg


...So are you saying I should close your thread, then? mmm

Thats why its a hypothetical situation, We know there's context to it but arguments can be made to that retcon punch not mattering to such beings in Marvel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Good stuff.

I'd say you're spot-on here.

quit liking your own post galan

https://i.gifer.com/cBv.gif

https://i.ibb.co/642B28W/CUzs.gif

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Looks like i struck a nerve

https://i.postimg.cc/WhwwQ2Tw/source.gif you pulled this shit before you asswipe and I told you to stop. Only thing it hit on is that it exposed you as an insecure low life pos in real life.

Instead of addressing what I said you derail my thread and throw ad hominem attacks. concession accepted 👍 don't wank prime again child, that's the millonth time i've have to slap you senseless on another feat of an S related character

You mentioned retcon punch, and I said that wouldn't affect Legion because hes in the op... that I asked... the ACTUAL topic. But somehow its irrelevant, you got spanked. bad. again. You make this too easy for me

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Interesting. Hulkster, any comment? You seem a BIG fan of quoting mods

Noted that this one depiction gives the PZ a solid wall border separating the two realities to punch.

Was any reality changed when SBP punches Black Adam, Conner, regular Superman, the Gals, etc? There is something about his punches that is unique, if not just the power behind them. But how is it applicable in battle? Mephisto warps Peter Parker's entire life at a whim. Genis-vell and Sentry do more. Reality is mucked with when the three Thor's fight Gorr.

Guess you were wrong on differing opinions.

Albert! BZ challenge! 6 month self ban!

Stop running lmao.

I was absolutely right. Not sure what you are reading.

Nah, you were not.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.ibb.co/58KnVZG/Untitled.jpg


...So are you saying I should close your thread, then? mmm

He is

Originally posted by TheHulkster
I was absolutely right. Not sure what you are reading.

So when you quoted Galan, saying he differed from qwerty, SPECIFICALLY on the connection between the PZ and the multiverse:

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Nope,The comics never stated how SBP's reality-warping ability works. We just knew he has the ability.And performed multiple times and to date no specific proof to prove he needs specific conditions to do that.
But we saw him changing reality by hitting a corrupted version of Superman. And we saw him changing reality by hitting phantom zone where he didn't have any multiversal people or structures to hit etc.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Opinions differ from yours on the connection of the corrupted Superman and Phantom Zone to the multiverse:

Yet, Galan clarifies saying - almost what qwerty says, word for word (in terms of the main salient points):
Originally posted by Galan007
I understand that the PZ having a defined space and/or bordering walls doesn't make much sense, but different writers often do whatever they want in cases like this(especially those involving Prime.) Now as for how punching out of the PZ could have altered continuity: I have no rational explanation for that. The PZ isn't historically defined as a multiversal nexus point(certainly not in the same way the Limbo realm or DN are)... But as mentioned in the above scene- that's just what Prime does(nonsensical as it may be):

Not sure why Prime being able to punch continuity so hard that it switches forms is being lowballed/downplayed to such extremes..? The fact that it is completely illogical doesn't change the fact that he's... Done it.

So how are they differing opinions? Please explain.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So when you quoted Galan, saying he differed from qwerty, SPECIFICALLY on the connection between the PZ and the multiverse:





Yet, Galan clarifies saying - almost what qwerty says, word for word (in terms of the main salient points):


So how are they differing opinions? Please explain.

Because this part is part of the post:

Originally posted by Galan007
At this point it is abundantly clear that Prime's punches have an innate ability to alter/affect reality in ways no other being(barring high-end reality manipulators) can... When connecting with certain 'targets' that are in some way intrinsically tied-to creation.

What I interpret as being said is that while historically, the PZ is not a nexus point and that it makes no sense to have a solid border, different writers give different portrayals. In this case, the writer gives it this wall and that wall serves as a target that is "in some way intrinsically tied to creation".

It would seem consistent with comic book lore that hitting the solid bouderies between realities with enough force or by some special force can muck with reality. The whole argument is one of the specific need for special items to hit for reality to be altered even if Prime is the only one capable of achieving this. This is why most of the many people he has punched before don't go through reality changes.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Because this part is part of the post:



What I interpret as being said is that while historically, the PZ is not a nexus point and that it makes no sense to have a solid border, different writers give different portrayals. In this case, the writer gives it this wall and that wall serves as a target that is "in some way intrinsically tied to creation".

It would seem consistent with comic book lore that hitting the solid bouderies between realities with enough force or by some special force can muck with reality. The whole argument is one of the specific need for special items to hit for reality to be altered even if Prime is the only one capable of achieving this. This is why most of the many people he has punched before don't go through reality changes.

That part is for point#2.

Point #1 is for the Phantom Zone,your point.

Nowhere does Galan, your hero whom you quote, say it is ONLY limited to items linked to creation.....

Which incidentally, isn't the point that you originally made, which was that the PZ and the multiverse was linked.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That part is for point#2.

Point #1 is for the Phantom Zone,your point.

Nowhere does Galan, your hero whom you quote, say it is ONLY limited to items linked to creation.....

Which incidentally, isn't the point that you originally made, which was that the PZ and the multiverse was linked.

He says "at this point" which seems to me to be a summary of the first two points and it's consistent with below:

Originally posted by Galan007
SBP does seem to need a 'target' of sorts to effect those kind of changes -- specifically one that is connected to the multiverse in some esoteric way. In the first instance the target was the walls of the Limbo realm, in the second instance the target was the wall/border of the Phantom Zone, in the third instance the target was the Darkest Night and/or his lackeys.

To date, Prime hasn't just thrown his fists into thin air and altered the multiverse.


That said, Prime did somehow did manage to bust from the 3rd dimension into the 5th dimension to kidnap Mxy during Countdown:
https://ibb.co/Brsv1xt
...But he also had the Guardian amp at the time, and that action didn't have any adverse effects on the rest of creation.

And, yes, he never says "only", but rather says "specifically".

Tied to creation means multiverse now?

It's fun watching my posts be dissected like this.

This must be how Grant Morrison feels all the time.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's fun watching my posts be dissected like this.

This must be how Grant Morrison feels all the time. I hope your head feels warmer than his though. I would really love to slap him on top of his bald noggin for lulz.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
2.Fast forward to present times, after fans lost their minds around it, DC tried to force it in the present stories, not only it didn't make sense, but it also contradicted prior fights by not occuring in them.

This is you essentially saying "I don't like it so it didn't happen",


Also, do you realize you are complaining because retcons aren't happening more consistently, that must be the most absurd cricitism you can apply to a reality warping ability

"Hey, DC used Prime this month and did not change Power Girl's backstory twice, terrible writting"

Anyone complaining about Prime only appearing in a handful of stories over the last 15 years, and only using a reality punching and/or retconning ability a few times in that span, but still trying to summon up Thor, Gladiator, Surfer, Hulk and Thanos feats from 30+ years ago are a ****ing joke.

Originally posted by Juntai
Anyone complaining about Prime only appearing in a handful of stories over the last 15 years, and only using a reality punching and/or retconning ability a few times in that span, but still trying to summon up Thor, Gladiator, Surfer, Hulk and Thanos feats from 30+ years ago are a ****ing joke.

DK didn't do much to gain the title of omnipotent. Neither did Perpetua. Superboy Prime had a far tougher opponent in Monarch than he did against Darkest Knight. Hide from it if you'd like, but it will remain an issue, and since DC made everything canon we can't exactly disprove it, or claim that it was a different Superboy Prime.

Originally posted by Stoic
DK didn't do much to gain the title of omnipotent. The Darkest Night...
1.) Merged with the Dark Multiverse's equivalent of Dr. Manhattan(who was already a peer of Perpetua.)
2.) Stitched the skills and experience of all the Batmen in the Dark Multiverse into himself to become even more powerful.
3.) Wields all the Crisis energy, ever.

Originally posted by Stoic
Neither did Perpetua. She didn't need to?

Perpetua was created by the Source/Overvoid specifically to create multiverses. That is her function, as designated by the supreme power of DC.

Originally posted by Stoic
Superboy Prime had a far tougher opponent in Monarch than he did against Darkest Knight. What do you mean? Monarch is universal. Darkest Night is multiversal+.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Darkest Night...
1.) Merged with the Dark Multiverse's equivalent of Dr. Manhattan(who was already a peer of Perpetua.)
2.) Stitched the skills and experience of all the Batmen in the Dark Multiverse into himself to become even more powerful.
3.) Wields all the Crisis energy, ever.

She didn't need to?

Perpetua was created by the Source/Overvoid specifically to create multiverses. That is her function, as designated by the supreme power of DC.

What do you mean? Monarch is universal. Darkest Night is multiversal+.

BWL was weakened when he fought Prime, BWL expended fighting Perpetua, and also Perpetua mentioned BWL power was limited just like hers

not to mention a non weakened BWL already stomped Prime and the others in Death Metal 5 with Prime being the last one to recover
https://i.postimg.cc/z3X1F8ty/7727336-7828727392-7c-U6f-Pe-RDt-Ddaa-KFd-Mt-Dj-P6-DFXR70-Cax-A060-Irr-Tbe-Lh-YRH6evu-Au0-SNxb-IMw9-Ffh7v-ZI06o-CUVRc-TQkj.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/crPyWYs3/7727337-7109728404-02b-Evv-MJUANTJy-OEy-WZj-SAHczcjs-Y-kfzd-JIufra-Eai-ATk1-M9s-R9-D0-Ww4-Ux-YUIn-Ks-Dy-Ao-Uu85-I3-T-EF.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/qg5MtNJJ/7727338-3822720556-8d-QVM-Xo-Ke-T3-KXc-JK3-Z5-G3sx44-E2kvpc-N0bfy-IIx-GT3zyd-AL2n-Uesqw-Bc40-Xipw-VHVnd-XNbj8ts-CPd2j.jpg

^ Has nothing to do with what I said to Stoic.

Stop getting so defensive.

Originally posted by Bentley
This is you essentially saying "I don't like it so it didn't happen",


Also, do you realize you are complaining because retcons aren't happening more consistently, that must be the most absurd cricitism you can apply to a reality warping ability

"Hey, DC used Prime this month and did not change Power Girl's backstory twice, terrible writting"

Prime after the events of Infinite Crisis and prior Death Metal, was pushed to his limits in some fights, sometimes he had to try hard, yet none of his attacks even retconned anything. It's inconsistency nothing more

SBP doing things that are inconsistent with the rest of the DCU is ..... pretty consistent with him.

Punching out of the Phantom Zone? Sure.

Escaping the Speed Force? Why not.

Overriding BL rings? Ok.

Busting the AM and flying it's corpse far away? Meh.

Surviving and amping off a Guardian's kamikaze attack? Sounds funky.

Finding a Zatanna who is able to weaken Mxy, yet is deathly scared of him? Cool.

At this point, in his short history, he's done a fair amount of 'inconsistent' things.

Surviving a universal explosion