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This group of X-men:

Magneto
Storm
Iceman
Prof X
Rogue
Magik
Havok

is tasked with bringing down the League. They arrange to confront the members in this order:

Wonder Woman/Aquaman

Flash/Lantern

Jonn/Batman

Superman

Do they get it done?

Ground-bound X-men start behind Mags' shield, the others are flying. Empty 500mx500m warehouse.

Could they take out the Little 6 as one unit? (Big 7 minus Superman...)

The only way that I could see them winning is through subterfuge and one sided prep.

against ANY of the groups??

Agreed.

I assume.....what's your stance on speed, Leo?

I mean sure, Flash gets tagged by a gorilla all the time in comics - PIS or?

Smurph! Lol. I thought I was excited when I returned! Reasonable take as usual. Good to hear from you. 👍🏻

They stop hard at the first fight, except Wonder Woman jobs hard, Aquaman could die due to Magneto, Prof X, Iceman, and Magik though.

The little 6 would need to job enough that reality breaks apart, for the mutants to have any chance.

Or does this involve preperation, which would explain the odd Martian Manhunter and Batman pairing?

Originally posted by GodofNature
They stop hard at the first fight, except Wonder Woman jobs hard, Aquaman could die due to Magneto, Prof X, Iceman, and Magik though. lol

Originally posted by Parmaniac
lol
What's funny?

Probablyly that you think Wonderwoman and Aquaman are beating that X-men lineup. They aren't doing anything but immediately getting mindphucked,frozen and ragdolled. Everyone starts off behind Magnetos shields meaning speed blitzes are gonna be worthless on the first attack and it ensures that Xavier gets to do his thing.

Hell, it basicly negates the rush and allows the entire X-team a chance to do their thing. Jon and Hal are the only threat that can stave off Xavier with the team broken down like this. Supes shatters mags shield just to get mind whammied. Not sure how in the hell they kill or even injure him, but they can subdue him.

Originally posted by leonidas
This group of X-men:

Magneto
Storm
Iceman
Prof X
Rogue
Magik
Havok

is tasked with bringing down the League. They arrange to confront the members in this order:

Wonder Woman/Aquaman

Flash/Lantern

Jonn/Batman

Superman

Do they get it done?

Ground-bound X-men start behind Mags' shield, the others are flying. Empty 500mx500m warehouse.

Could they take out the Little 6 as one unit? (Big 7 minus Superman...)

Storm, Havok and Iceman are largely useless in this fight, tbh. Sure, they have some nice high feats, but on average they lack the offense to put down several of the opponents listed.

Xavier, Mags and Magik are key players though, and could carry the team a fair bit.

Rogue... I suppose it depends on what version of her shows up to the fight.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Probablyly that you think Wonderwoman and Aquaman are beating that X-men lineup. They aren't doing anything but immediately getting mindphucked,frozen and ragdolled. Everyone starts off behind Magnetos shields meaning speed blitzes are gonna be worthless on the first attack and it ensures that Xavier gets to do his thing.

Hell, it basicly negates the rush and allows the entire X-team a chance to do their thing. Jon and Hal are the only threat that can stave off Xavier with the team broken down like this. Supes shatters mags shield just to get mind whammied. Not sure how in the hell they kill or even injure him, but they can subdue him.
I find it more funny to think that lineup is anywhere close to fast enough to react to a not jobbing Wonder Woman, or even more crazy immediately do anything to her, she could just burst through Magneto's shield with a blitz and lasso them all, and even for Rebirth count still feats like resisting Brainac's minphuck try from New 52 besides lassoing herself. And i have even pointed out that Aquaman could die, he adds nothing and i have never even indicated he could take this lineup on.

The only way that comes even close to the truth is if the Justice Leaguers go full on jobbing, and the mutants are bloodlusted, in any other case are Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Superman plainly too fast for them.

You're not the only man horny for leo here.

Get in line, Smurph.

He wouldn't dare peaches

Fair enough

They do start behind Magneto's shield, so I guess some of these fights depend on if you think the speedsters can break the shield faster than they get mind****ed by Xavier or BFR'd by Magik.

Or a speedsteal from Wally.

aww.

if it'll keep you coming back, i'll see what i can do with threads.

as for the thread, the speed steal is def an issue. depends if flash gets it off before xavier. that is an old argument. in character ds, you think he speed steals in the first attosecond?

i also seem to recall phil at one time thinking he could make a case for mags taking down superman....

i think the fights are close, and that bobby might be being slept on a little. magik too. pr mentioned rogue could be a problem and i agree with that.

Magik is Def being slept on.

Especially as she has used her portals against lightspeed Spectrum....

Originally posted by leonidas
This group of X-men:

Magneto
Storm
Iceman
Prof X
Rogue
Magik
Havok

is tasked with bringing down the League. They arrange to confront the members in this order:

Wonder Woman/Aquaman

Flash/Lantern

Jonn/Batman

Superman

Do they get it done?

Ground-bound X-men start behind Mags' shield, the others are flying. Empty 500mx500m warehouse.

Could they take out the Little 6 as one unit? (Big 7 minus Superman...)

Doctor polaris solo'd the league so we know magneto is going to be a problem. Current rogue is the big wildcard that is going to give the league problems. I say X-Men have it low/mid difficulty. throwing in two Omega AoE fighters, a sorceror and an energy blaster makes short work of the League.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Storm, Havok and Iceman are largely useless in this fight, tbh. Sure, they have some nice high feats, but on average they lack the offense to put down several of the opponents listed.

Xavier, Mags and Magik are key players though, and could carry the team a fair bit.

Rogue... I suppose it depends on what version of her shows up to the fight.

Iceman isn't useless here. their powers grants them the capability to support and lay suppressing fire. Having a strong support and bench also counts if your big guns get hit early.

Originally posted by leonidas
aww.

if it'll keep you coming back, i'll see what i can do with threads.

as for the thread, the speed steal is def an issue. depends if flash gets it off before xavier. that is an old argument. in character ds, you think he speed steals in the first attosecond?

i also seem to recall phil at one time thinking he could make a case for mags taking down superman....

i think the fights are close, and that bobby might be being slept on a little. magik too. pr mentioned rogue could be a problem and i agree with that.

Nah, not the first attosecond of the fight, but I would say it's a good shout when the chips are down - for example, with Amazo. He's getting beaten, he's getting kicked all over the place, he knows he's going to lose.....

THEN he pulled it out, and it was instantaneous, so he could get away (which would be a forum win).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nah, not the first attosecond of the fight, but I would say it's a good shout when the chips are down - for example, with Amazo. He's getting beaten, he's getting kicked all over the place, he knows he's going to lose.....

THEN he pulled it out, and it was instantaneous, so he could get away (which would be a forum win).

and i agree with that 100%, but here, if he doesn't do it immediately, prof x fukcs him good, and he won't have another chance to try it. this team can't beat a cis-less forum flash (almost no one can), but i do think they can beat an in character flash--at least the first time they meet. /shrug

Ah so no basic knowledge?

ok, let's assume standard knowledge. i'm still not convinced it's his go-to. see...any battle with grodd as proof?

but beyond that, has it not been shown that speed steal freezes an opponent, but that they are still capable of thinking? re: inertia....

They start off behind Mags shield. I really dont see how the X team loses under those stips.Supes can shatter the shield once he larns about it. Gonna be to late by then

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Iceman isn't useless here. their powers grants them the capability to support and lay suppressing fire. Having a strong support and bench also counts if your big guns get hit early.

I said "largely", as I really don't expect his offence to be of any use. They just can't really take him down physically. Arthur or J'onn could telepathically attack him, sure, but that's about it.

@phil--didn't you tell me once upon a time that you thought you could make a pretty good case for mags beating superman. pretty sure i have that convo saved somewhere... lol

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--didn't you tell me once upon a time that you thought you could make a pretty good case for mags beating superman. pretty sure i have that convo saved somewhere... lol I don't remember, lol. I may have said it against pre-Flashpoint Superman, but I believe the case required quite a bit of inactivity from Superman and non-use of speed. I'll be honest -- I don't think Magneto's shield can withstand even one attack from Superman if he really wants to get through, unless he holds back due to not enough knowledge.

i agree a determined superman could get through them. i think there are ways mags could make an in-character superman's life rough though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I said "largely", as I really don't expect his offence to be of any use. They just can't really take him down physically. Arthur or J'onn could telepathically attack him, sure, but that's about it.

And yet He could draw moisture out of at least half the team.

that's what i was wondering, actually. does he still retain his full range of moisture control? if someone is getting mind whammied by x, dehydration could be a huge promlem, re: mera....

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree a determined superman could get through them. i think there are ways mags could make an in-character superman's life rough though. I'm surprised to see Wonder Woman given a free pass, tbh . I think people see her too much as "70% of Superman" instead of actually looking at her feats.

oh, i'm not giving her a free pass at all. i think the main reason they see her that way is because she is considerably slower than superman. and in dc, speed is what it always comes down to. i think she's faster than jonn though and probably lantern, but she doesn't showcase blitz-style speed as regularly as superman. /shrug i do think the team takes her out though.

Plus, she's great against single opponents with her lasso. Multiple? Ehhh.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
And yet He could draw moisture out of at least half the team.

He could try. Doesn't mean he'd be successful.

Originally posted by -Pr-
He could try. Doesn't mean he'd be successful.

He will be successful, easily. There's no reason why it shouldn't work on aquaman, batman and the flash. Also iceman and storm would be key to slowing down flash since both can drop into near absolute zero cold instantly.

Neither iceman nor storm have superhuman reflexes. They're well trained and honed by practice and battle, sure, but nowhere near the level of Flash.

Unless we use PIS, like Batman weirdly having superhuman reflexes etc.

no, but the shield is up and storm is flying. mera showed how effective dehydration can be against the league. /shrug

agreed. It all depends on Flash's speed steal and whether he busts it out. I mean, we're entertaining the notion of ICEman starting a battle with.... dehydration, which isn't exactly his go to move....

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
He will be successful, easily. There's no reason why it shouldn't work on aquaman, batman and the flash. Also iceman and storm would be key to slowing down flash since both can drop into near absolute zero cold instantly.

Easily? The likelihood of Bobby even trying it is up for debate. Then there's the argument as to how successful/potent it would actually be.

I know they're DC characters and you hate them, but try to be fair for once.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Neither iceman nor storm have superhuman reflexes. They're well trained and honed by practice and battle, sure, but nowhere near the level of Flash.

Unless we use PIS, like Batman weirdly having superhuman reflexes etc.

Storm is a near Batman level combatant. No reason to think her reflexes aren't close enough. Also there's other members of the team would be in play. The flash isn't automatically going to be moving in ftl speeds either especially when it's not necessary, that's how he gets caught.

But it's a fight, and he has basic knowledge. PIS is off. Not sure why he wouldn't think it necessary, especially against one of the most powerful telepaths etc?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Easily? The likelihood of Bobby even trying it is up for debate. Then there's the argument as to how successful/potent it would actually be.

I know they're DC characters and you hate them, but try to be fair for once.

just throwing out all options. Flash freezing the flash would probably be the best move and between him and storm they can pull that off. Magneto can too but his would be slower.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Storm is a near Batman level combatant. No reason to think her reflexes aren't close enough. Also there's other members of the team would be in play. The flash isn't automatically going to be moving in ftl speeds either especially when it's not necessary, that's how he gets caught.

No she's not.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
just throwing out all options. Flash freezing the flash would probably be the best move and between him and storm they can pull that off. Magneto can too but his would be slower.

Can is different to would, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No she's not.



Can is different to would, though.

He WOULD though, that's the point. Not only can he pull moisture he can pull energy, heat vision is done. He can shut that off by manipulating convection waves. He controls the energy that produces heat. Radiation as well. He's not Mera. Mera wishes she could do what Bobby could. He has full control of all water around him including ambient moisture. He can drain them of body heat as well. If he wanted to body them...he could far worse than this:

https://i.postimg.cc/hJQ1tZZD/iths.jpg

It's not up for dispute. For killer frost that was and Amp. Bobby was already doing stuff like this, Not just moisture. But he controls energy. With bobby moisture is simply a byproduct of his main power. Energy manipulation

More importantly you MUST take into effect the X-men as a team and how effective they are in group fights and using their powers together. Everyone in this X-men squad is effective. Easily.

you must understand EXACTLY what bobby is doing. He's manipulating energy. Just like what frost did with that Amp. Storm and iceman are actually more than capable in this fight. Also keep in mind that Rogue can feed off everyone on the field passively without touching:

https://i.postimg.cc/bDtPLP67/rfogue.jpg

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
More importantly you MUST take into effect the X-men as a team and how effective they are in group fights and using their powers together. Everyone in this X-men squad is effective. Easily.

Have these specific X-men ever actually been part of the same team at the same time?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
He WOULD though, that's the point. Not only can he pull moisture he can pull energy, heat vision is done. He can shut that off by manipulating convection waves. He controls the energy that produces heat. Radiation as well. He's not Mera. Mera wishes she could do what Bobby could. He has full control of all water around him including ambient moisture. He can drain them of body heat as well. If he wanted to body them...he could far worse than this:

https://i.postimg.cc/hJQ1tZZD/iths.jpg

It's not up for dispute. For killer frost that was and Amp. Bobby was already doing stuff like this, Not just moisture. But he controls energy. With bobby moisture is simply a byproduct of his main power. Energy manipulation

Saying he would because you want him to, isn't the same as him being willing to do it first thing as soon as the bell rings. Capability isn't up for debate as much as willingness or thoughtfulness.

You're acting like Bobby would do what you would do in his place. It's not the same thing.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
More importantly you MUST take into effect the X-men as a team and how effective they are in group fights and using their powers together. Everyone in this X-men squad is effective. Easily.

Them working well as a team doesn't suddenly mean they can overcome any obstacle.

And we are acting as if Wally can't do the same, or Superman doesn't just fly at FTL speeds and sings them out of existence. He totally can, you guyz!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Have these specific X-men ever actually been part of the same team at the same time?

yes most of them, and if not they have been on the same team in some way shape or form. Magneto and xavier and storm have definitely been on the same team with all. Iceman too iirc

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
yes most of them, and if not they have been on the same team in some way shape or form. Magneto and xavier and storm have definitely been on the same team with all. Iceman too iirc

That's a lot of words to say 'no', lol.

My point was that you're hyping this team up to have perfect teamwork with each other - when they haven't actually been a team together before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
agreed. It all depends on Flash's speed steal and whether he busts it out. I mean, we're entertaining the notion of ICEman starting a battle with.... dehydration, which isn't exactly his go to move....

oh i agree, but again, given standard knowledge, there's a chance i guess. the move is non-lethal so it wouldn't be a huge stretch, maybe, but yes, unlikely. i bring it up to say that in character, i think they can win. in character, i actually think they could win most of the battles. mags would be tough on both lantern (see dr polaris) and jonn (see dr polaris....) superman is tough, but there's less chance he goes attosecond than flash, and if x can get in his head, which i think is very likely, combined with the others, i don't think it's impossible they take him.

pis-less=/=forum versions though the 2 are consistently conflated around here and have been for years.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's a lot of words to say 'no', lol.

My point was that you're hyping this team up to have perfect teamwork with each other - when they haven't actually been a team together before.

If they were tasked to prepare to fight them as a team, they would have pretty good synergy, the win conditions have all been on the same team before, Magneto, Xavier, Magik, and Rogue.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh i agree, but again, given standard knowledge, there's a chance i guess. the move is non-lethal so it wouldn't be a huge stretch, maybe, but yes, unlikely. i bring it up to say that in character, i think they can win. in character, i actually think they could win most of the battles. mags would be tough on both lantern (see dr polaris) and jonn (see dr polaris....) superman is tough, but there's less chance he goes attosecond than flash, and if x can get in his head, which i think is very likely, combined with the others, i don't think it's impossible they take him.

pis-less=/=forum versions though the 2 are consistently conflated around here and have been for years.

Yeah, we still have in character and CIS. My view (which I think....drove you away last time we debated it, in the Weapon H thread?) is that Flash is not stupid (like Rhino) and speedsteal isn't harming the opponent (as you said).

Although, since Albert is in this thread, I will remind everyone this is how he views Barry and Wally
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
You USED Flash as an example which was a fail. If you actually read a flash comic, or (comics in general) You'd KNOW Barry is holding back murderous rage on a regular basis. Barry snapped during the Future Flash arc and killed Grodd by blowing up his head, killed Daniel West by snapping his neck, killed Mirror Master my making him impale himself with thousands if glass shards, dropped Trickster off skyscraper, killed a man named Kyle by vibrating his hand into his chest and exploding his heart, amputated Napalm's arm during a fight and then tried to impale him with a 12 inch glass shard. Mans snapped hard.

Then there's the time the Negative Speed Force made Barry show his true colors and he snapped and tried to kill Thawne. And in the King Cold arc Barry snapped and beat Cold to the point he almost died. Golden Glider had to pull Barry off of him.

So, yes it's ABSOLUTELY perfect within Flashes character to do that, period. Use somebody else cause you obviously don't know what youre talking about like the usual

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Yup, Wally has already been shown to be unhinged and employed a variety of this strategy in Heroes In Crisis.

Wally/Barry are starting the fight and snapping necks True golden material.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Storm is a near Batman level combatant. lol

Have you nvr been with a grl?

Have you ever sang to the president?

blast from the past.

this place nvr gets old.

Originally posted by leonidas
this place nvr gets old.
Nvr underestimate this forum. Fangirl101

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, we still have in character and CIS. My view (which I think....drove you away last time we debated it, in the Weapon H thread?) is that Flash is not stupid (like Rhino) and speedsteal isn't harming the opponent (as you said).


fair enough, but like i said, i don't think the speed steal leaves the opponent unable to think, so it wouldn't do much to x....

i don't remember the wh thread you're talking about, but speed isn't something i have a problem with--forum speed and ooc usage is where i take issue with it. i don't think it's impossible flash steals speed here, but i don't think it's an auto win even if he does, unless you have something that shows people DO stop thinking, or their brains completely shut down? if you do, then speed steal would end it--i just don't see him using it very often out of the gate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nvr underestimate this forum. Fangirl101

smurph is canadian. better chance of him knowing how many prime ministers.

Originally posted by leonidas
smurph is canadian. better chance of him knowing how many prime ministers.
I am not canadian, but in Europe matter presidents also not much.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough, but like i said, i don't think the speed steal leaves the opponent unable to think, so it wouldn't do much to x....

i don't remember the wh thread you're talking about, but speed isn't something i have a problem with--forum speed and ooc usage is where i take issue with it. i don't think it's impossible flash steals speed here, but i don't think it's an auto win even if he does, unless you have something that shows people DO stop thinking, or their brains completely shut down? if you do, then speed steal would end it--i just don't see him using it very often out of the gate. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/3/34/5226685-wally_west_speed_steal_2.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/3/34/5226685-wally_west_speed_steal_2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/600?cb=20170418010010

EDIT: ****ing website revision

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
blast from the past.

Nvr never really left.

The only Diana fan on the whole Internet.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/3/34/5226685-wally_west_speed_steal_2.jpg

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/3/34/5226685-wally_west_speed_steal_2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/600?cb=20170418010010

EDIT: ****ing website revision



the link doesn't work either. just tell me: does it support what i said....? if it doesn't i don't want to see it anyway. lol

Let's just say it doesn't and leave it at that

Originally posted by leonidas


the link doesn't work either. just tell me: does it support what i said....? if it doesn't i don't want to see it anyway. lol It says that he can still think, see and hear.

wait, ds....lied to me?? *le gasp!*



thanks man.

i wonder though about that--doesn't that mean any thought related powers would still work? something like heat vision, as well as psi powers...?

I'd assume so. Although I'd question why he's allowing his opponents to see/think/hear when he's trying to beat them (as opposed to torture them).

Yeah, why would he allow a telepath the ability to think?

how would he stop him? we were talking about speed steal. has he ever taken enough speed to stop someone from thinking? if that's the case he'd likely need to stop all cellular motion, which would kill whoever he used it on. chuck is behind a very powerful shield. imp it? before chuck thinks sleep?

in character, i don't really see him ending chuck before chuck ends him--at least in most cases. /shrug

He could just slow his brain down. Wally has controlled metabolisms before and, while he probably wouldn't pull a Walter https://imgur.com/a/6unwEIE], it would still be affecting. Either way, he doesn't really need it so it's a moot point... I disagree about the shield/sleep being in any way an obstacle, but then we get back to the speed and full capacity again. Wally has as much time as he wants to hit the shield until it falls and then slap Xavier unconscious. He has zero reasons to ever let them even perceive the fight has started -- but then again, this discussion is all deja-vu, so I'll leave it at that. There's already been a thread for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Flash need to touch him for speed steal? So if he reaches Prof X, why wouldn't he just knock him the **** out?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Flash need to touch him for speed steal? So if he reaches Prof X, why wouldn't he just knock him the **** out? Not necessary.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/JLA-1997/Issue-75?id=39341#40
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/JLA-1997/Issue-75?id=39341#41

lol i read it. i know how you like to showcase mags.

the phasing would be interesting in a comic, but flash would shift faster than mags could adjust i'd think. but i do think it would buy time for chuck to think sleep. high level tp's have crazy thought speeds as well, something else i feel is getting overlooked here.

i know people will think i'm neutering the characters--i don't see it that way. i think the truest way to measure the character is to use them as they are most commonly portrayed. why don't i think flash would go attosecond even in this situation? 75yrs of flash comics. i don't think full capacity should supersede all that history is all. it's also why i never call pis in any matches--it's all washed out in the end.

But that 75 years of Flash comics....are for stories. Comics.

Battleboards ignore a good story, which is precisely what you're trying to go for here. You're looking for a good match up, with good debating on both sides and scans etc. But that's still telling a story. Sure telepaths have great thinking speed feats....but they're still only human.

battleboards that don't promote discussion are....redundant. i mean how many times does someone like mrmind need to say SPEED!11! lol

we define IN CHARACTER by COMIC PORTRAYAL. full capacity is patently NOT in character. the 2 concepts are incompatible and at odds.

why would any rule that makes it effectively impossible to argue against a character like flash, or superman be a viable rule? i contend that full capacity should be DICTATED by "in character", and as far as i know, that is the spirit in which the rule was made. at least there is nothing in the rules to say that my interpretation is 'wrong'.

like i said to phil--anything that quashes fun discussion just doesn't make sense to me. the full capacity rule is like adding a second layer of fiction to the already fictional characters--we take comic characters and fit them into an even deeper level of fiction, using proofs that aren't always allowed as proofs to support situations that are...fictional.

it's hilarious. let me ask you this: what if the mods voted to simply eliminate the full capacity rule right now. do you think that would help or hinder discussion? in its place, we were allowed to use whatever showings we wanted, including pis showings. the only rule--characters need to be argued in character, as portrayed in comics. do you think that would be better, or worse for the forum and for discussion? genuinely curious.

Originally posted by leonidas
we define IN CHARACTER by COMIC PORTRAYAL. full capacity is patently NOT in character. the 2 concepts are incompatible and at odds.

Not really. A character can maintain their personality while doing the best they're capable of.

What is it you don't agree with?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Saying he would because you want him to, isn't the same as him being willing to do it first thing as soon as the bell rings. Capability isn't up for debate as much as willingness or thoughtfulness.

You're acting like Bobby would do what you would do in his place. It's not the same thing.



Them working well as a team doesn't suddenly mean they can overcome any obstacle.

they're X-Men. They've spent decades (aside from Mags) living with each other and training in the Danger Room together to work on how their powers complement each other. They don't all have to have been on the same team for high quality team work.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not really. A character can maintain their personality while doing the best they're capable of.

What is it you don't agree with?

lol

i feel we may have gone over something like this before. my issue (and it's not really an issue, but rather the way i prefer to interpret the rule) is pretty straight forward--in this thread for example, it has been said that flash would beat this group because, well, he could hit the shield an infinite number of times, for example, and shatter it, that, in effect, he could have a nearly infinite amount of time to take care of business--as he does in almost every thread. it hasn't been stated directly, but the same can be said of superman.

my issue has always been that, yes, they COULD do that. and in a battleboard scenario where they fight at full capacity regardless of whether it is in character or not, they WOULD do that because doing anything else is 'illogical'.

however, that runs 100% contrary to what they WOULD do most often in a comic. even in a situation like this one it's highly unlikely he would ever use that level of speed at the outset of a battle. not because he's dumb, but because that's simply how he's portrayed. the full capacity rule in effect makes it impossible to put anyone but a flash or flash equivalent against flash. i mean, people think someone like odin has zero chance to beat the flash. to me, that's...crazy. it doesn't, and never has, made sense. it runs contrary to what we see all the time, and kills discussion. but it's not limited to speed, it's just that speed is most often the thing that bogs discussion.

i guess i could ask you the same thing i asked ds--if full capacity was eliminated, what effect do you think it would have on battles? let's say instead of full capacity, we substituted most frequent portrayal. of course there would still be arguments about what is the most frequent portrayal, but those would mostly be self evident.

the argument might go--if you don't want speed to be an issue, equalize it. or put someone else up against a speedster. problem is, non-speedsters have cool battles against speedsters all the time. then you'll say PIS! lol and i'll say it isn't pis, it's comics and that over the long haul pis is determined by its differentiation from the normal portrayal so pis gets ruled out automatically. exotic powers can still be brought up and argued as discussions ensue, but at least there COULD be discussion.

lol

tldr, but, you did ask. i'm really not trying to stir up sh!t pr, just, as always, looking for some well reasoned, and well supported discussion. the defense of full capacity just doesn't feel like 'real' support to me, and suggesting this team of powerful x-men has a chance to beat flash shouldn't feel like i have to neuter flash to give them that chance. /shrug

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Flash need to touch him for speed steal? So if he reaches Prof X, why wouldn't he just knock him the **** out?

Making eye contact is enough sometimes.

All those exotic abilities and DC speedsters still get buttraped by talking monkeys or any brick.

No way would an in character Wally speed steal this lineup, at best he would use it against other speedsters, but with Green Lantern as back up is that not neccessary anyway.

Originally posted by leonidas
battleboards that don't promote discussion are....redundant. i mean how many times does someone like mrmind need to say SPEED!11! lol

we define IN CHARACTER by COMIC PORTRAYAL. full capacity is patently NOT in character. the 2 concepts are incompatible and at odds.

why would any rule that makes it effectively impossible to argue against a character like flash, or superman be a viable rule? i contend that full capacity should be DICTATED by "in character", and as far as i know, that is the spirit in which the rule was made. at least there is nothing in the rules to say that my interpretation is 'wrong'.

like i said to phil--anything that quashes fun discussion just doesn't make sense to me. the full capacity rule is like adding a second layer of fiction to the already fictional characters--we take comic characters and fit them into an even deeper level of fiction, using proofs that aren't always allowed as proofs to support situations that are...fictional.

it's hilarious. let me ask you this: what if the mods voted to simply eliminate the full capacity rule right now. do you think that would help or hinder discussion? in its place, we were allowed to use whatever showings we wanted, including pis showings. the only rule--characters need to be argued in character, as portrayed in comics. do you think that would be better, or worse for the forum and for discussion? genuinely curious.

Lol, well I think then you and I will never see eye to eye on this, alas.

To address the first few points (and then your question at the end):

Speed is just...that broken. We all acknowledge that prep time, for example, is broken - that's what speed (especially at the elite level) gives you. If you wish to throw logic out, and simply base it on comics (which are NOT designed for battleboards, but designed for story-telling), that is a fundamental misunderstanding of battleboards.

Put it this way. Doomsday vs....Daredevil. Now, in comics, Doomsday was unable to kill (or even KO, IIRC) Booster Gold WITHOUT his FF. In comics, Daredevil has managed to break some pretty hardcore opponents.

Would a Doomsday/Daredevil forum thread be.....competitive? That's not even getting into arguments about holding back (Doomsday certainly doesn't!) or characters like Batman. I mean, in his entire 75 plus years of stories, Batman has never been killed by a herald level h2h beating - not when he faced WW, Darkseid, Mongul, Doomsday, Superman, Zoom, you name em, he's faced them. Hell, back to my example, WHO has Doomsday actually killed? And I don't mean random no-name Lanterns or DS' uncle, actual comic characters with more than 5 appearances, lol. Answer - no one.

Or how about WWH vs Red Hood, to the death? Red Hood has certainly killed his opponents before, IN CHARACTER. WWH - as per Pak, in his ENTIRE 50 or so years of stories, has NEVER killed his opponent, in character. So does that mean Red Hood eventually wins? That WWH will keep holding his strength/abilities back, until he eventually loses? Obviously, HOW Red Hood eventually wins is a debate, but the actual conclusion - that Red Hood DOES win, is not debatable - because in character, Jason is a killer but Bruce isn't.

That's.....silly.

So why is strength (or indeed, any other ability) given a free pass, but not speed? We know Flash isn't stupid, we have created a thread where he knows he is in a fight, and that he wants to win. You don't like how it affects threads - that's perfectly fine and OK. I mean, over the entirety of, say, Xavier's history, I bet he only uses his abilities to read minds/say 'to me, my X-men!', rather than say, put his opponents to sleep.

So shall I come into this thread and say, well, based on the entirety of his appearances, he doesn't put Flash etc to sleep, but simply reads his mind?

lol you never answered my question, but you're not really getting what i'm saying--dd/hp dd would never be competitve because in the vast majority of his appearance, dd clearly displays herald level feats, while in the vast majority of his portrayals, dd is put down by far far below herald level opponents. by most frequent portrayal, a competitive fight between dd and dd would be impossible--anything suggesting otherwise would be pis/outlier not worth considering much as it would be now.

to me, any rule that allows for flash to beat odin 100/100, while simultaneously claiming flash is IN CHARACTER while he does so is....ludicrous. /shrug it should be manifestly apparent that in character, as portrayed through history, odin would obliterate the flash. in fact, it should be nearly as lopsided as your dd/dd example. speed shouldn't be enough to take a character that far. makes no sense.

the prep idea is another one--but in prep characters are ltd by what they can get their hands on, the time they have. ss is another example. why not start every match intangible for example?

i think we could just as easily say flash COULD start at attosecond speed and win. he would do so VERY rarely. he could act in character and get mind f'd by chuck immediately. then the discussion could move on from there into a closer look at what might really happen based on BOTH characters' histories.

i truly don't see how that can be deemed pis. but this isn't the topic i wanted to get onto. lol

Originally posted by leonidas
lol you never answered my question, but you're not really getting what i'm saying--dd/hp dd would never be competitve because in the vast majority of his appearance, dd clearly displays herald level feats, while in the vast majority of his portrayals, dd is put down by far far below herald level opponents. by most frequent portrayal, a competitive fight between dd and dd would be impossible--anything suggesting otherwise would be pis/outlier not worth considering much as it would be now.

to me, any rule that allows for flash to beat odin 100/100, while simultaneously claiming flash is IN CHARACTER while he does so is....ludicrous. /shrug it should be manifestly apparent that in character, as portrayed through history, odin would obliterate the flash. in fact, it should be nearly as lopsided as your dd/dd example. speed shouldn't be enough to take a character that far. makes no sense.

the prep idea is another one--but in prep characters are ltd by what they can get their hands on, the time they have. ss is another example. why not start every match intangible for example?

i think we could just as easily say flash COULD start at attosecond speed and win. he would do so VERY rarely. he could act in character and get mind f'd by chuck immediately. then the discussion could move on from there into a closer look at what might really happen based on BOTH characters' histories.

i truly don't see how that can be deemed pis. but this isn't the topic i wanted to get onto. lol

I did - if the mods took away the full capacity rule, and we only argued what was in character, then Red Hood beats WWH in a thread that is to the death.

In character, WWH never kills. In character, Red Hood does. It may take him a year, 2 years, ten years, whatever - but Hood will win, using your suggestion (in short, no, I disagree with your suggestion).

In character, Chuck doesn't put his enemies to sleep. In character, Xavier mostly uses his powers to read minds, to communicate - this can be easily shown if we take ALL of Chuck's appearances and see how he most frequently uses his powers. He very rarely uses his powers to mindphuck.

Across the vast majority - or all - of his appearances, Doomsday has never killed anyone of note. Even KOs are rare.

Across ALL of his appearances, Daredevil has never died (ok, maybe he has once or twice? but it never stuck). So...based on comics, Matt would never die. You get the point. See Batman, as well. Based on his entire history, he would mess a good many characters who are supposedly out of his tier.

But glad to see we agree on prep time being limited by, well, the time they have. Now imagine a speedster who can stretch a millisecond into days.

Has anyone discussed what would happen if Rogue grabbed someone?

I mean, we have Flash and Lantern, vs Magneto, Storm, Iceman, Prof X, Rogue, Magik, Havok.

1. They all have basic knowledge of each other - which equates to a lot, actually.

2. Flash and Lantern know they're facing a top-tier telepath, and Mags etc have incredible shields.

3. They know how dangerous telepaths are - GL has Hector Hammond, Flash has Grodd. They're teammates with one of the top telepaths in DC - J'onn.

4. Neither Flash nor GL are rookies. Neither are they stupid.

5. Neither side are looking to lose - they will do their best to win their fights.

Bell rings. At which of my points do you disagree with, above? Hopefully, none.

So your reasoning is that....Flash, despite knowing what a telepath is, despite knowing he's facing one of the most (if not the most) powerful telepaths ever, despite wanting to win, is going to give....this character with human level reactions, a chance to get off an attack?

In character?

I'm not arguing OOC attacks. I'm not saying Wally suddenly brings 10,000 time displaced clones, or burns Chuck's eyes out or whatever. Full capacity, but in character, he speedsteals. Wins the fight, doesn't hurt anyone, shuts his opponents down.

And if you bring up Grodd etc, well....that's for the story. That's PIS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did - if the mods took away the full capacity rule, and we only argued what was in character, then Red Hood beats WWH in a thread that is to the death.

In character, WWH never kills. In character, Red Hood does. It may take him a year, 2 years, ten years, whatever - but Hood will win, using your suggestion (in short, no, I disagree with your suggestion).

In character, Chuck doesn't put his enemies to sleep. In character, Xavier mostly uses his powers to read minds, to communicate - this can be easily shown if we take ALL of Chuck's appearances and see how he most frequently uses his powers. He very rarely uses his powers to mindphuck.

Across the vast majority - or all - of his appearances, Doomsday has never killed anyone of note. Even KOs are rare.

Across ALL of his appearances, Daredevil has never died (ok, maybe he has once or twice? but it never stuck). So...based on comics, Matt would never die. You get the point. See Batman, as well. Based on his entire history, he would mess a good many characters who are supposedly out of his tier.

But glad to see we agree on prep time being limited by, well, the time they have. Now imagine a speedster who can stretch a millisecond into days.

your red hood/hulk example makes no sense though because we know hood has been put down by way less regularly and hulk has beaten far more regularly. hulk ko's hood, match done. it's not about a character never dying. lol characters get ko'd all the time and in character superman in a forum setting wouldn't kill his opponents anyway. /shrug

why would dd need to kill to win a match? he could, if the stip says to the death. you're trying to take the suggestion to an illogical end to prove a point, but there's no reason to TAKE IT to that end.

but it's interesting that you say that IN CHARACTER chuck doesn't put anyone to sleep. but you're supposed to use the characters as if they ARE in character.

so again, just tell me how a rule that lets flash ko odin in the forst nanosecond 100/100 times also be considered "in character"?

Originally posted by leonidas
your red hood/hulk example makes no sense though because we know hood has been put down by way less regularly and hulk has beaten far more regularly. hulk ko's hood, match done. it's not about a character never dying. lol characters get ko'd all the time and in character superman in a forum setting wouldn't kill his opponents anyway. /shrug

That's exactly why I stipulated the win conditions of my theoretical thread - that it's to the death. Under those stips, Hood will win (eventually) because in character, he is perfectly willing to kill, but WWH isn't (thanks to Pak). KOs won't end the match, only death (so imagine a magical restart button that acts everytime one is beaten into a coma or something).


To show you the consequences of 'only using comics', when we both know it's completely different from 'battleboards'. One tells a story, and needs to preserve the status quo for next week's issue/next month's storyline. If Flash handily defeats Grodd by just being faster - how is Grodd ever being a worthy opponent next month, or next year?


Because in character, Flash doesn't want to lose a fight, doesn't want to be physically beaten by Gungnir/eyeblasted by Odin, and in character, isn't so stupid he forgets that he has a way to win 100/100 times.

I mean, across all of Chuck's 1,000s of appearances, how often does he put people to sleep? Is it the majority of times? Count up every time he uses his powers - whether it be read minds, call for help, creates mindlinks for his team, uses it for detecting people, or probe for lies,information transfer, talking to Magneto, creates illusions etc etc etc.

Then tell me what Chuck, 'on average', does with his powers.

And then tell me, 'on average', how quickly he uses his powers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, we have Flash and Lantern, vs Magneto, Storm, Iceman, Prof X, Rogue, Magik, Havok.

1. They all have basic knowledge of each other - which equates to a lot, actually.

2. Flash and Lantern know they're facing a top-tier telepath, and Mags etc have incredible shields.

3. They know how dangerous telepaths are - GL has Hector Hammond, Flash has Grodd. They're teammates with one of the top telepaths in DC - J'onn.

4. Neither Flash nor GL are rookies. Neither are they stupid.

5. Neither side are looking to lose - they will do their best to win their fights.

Bell rings. At which of my points do you disagree with, above? Hopefully, none.





speed steal wouldn't stop chuck thinking sleep unless, as i said, he steals all ke and that would likely kill chuck and the others. also not sure if he's ever done that...

but why stop at 1000 clones? it would make things easier, the clones don't need to kill anyone, just help win the fight. if we looked at his fights with grodd, he seems to win all the time. how?

again, you want to take the idea to illogical ends. my original questions was how do you think fights would change if full capacity were simply removed? you think it would help discussion, or hurt it?

again, a rule that let's flash times odin 100/100 is not a rule is compatible with IN CHARACTER. that's all i'm saying.

i simply would like a rule in place that would allow characters like flash and superman to take part in matches that require some actual discussion without the need to feel like they are being neutered.

of course it exists i guess--stips can account for anything, so..... lol this is all meaningless and things won't change. i'll drop it now because you're right we won't agree on it. c'est la vie.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


That's exactly why I stipulated the win conditions of my theoretical thread - that it's to the death. Under those stips, Hood will win (eventually) because in character, he is perfectly willing to kill, but WWH isn't (thanks to Pak). KOs won't end the match, only death (so imagine a magical restart button that acts everytime one is beaten into a coma or something).

this is still wrong because the stips dictate that in this case hulk will kill him....and he has killed before, so....



it's not only using comics--it's also common sense.



how do we determine character?



how does he most often use his powers in a BATTLE?



to see find that out you'd need to look at how quickly he can and has used them against speedsters since he has that knowledge.

there would be some battles he gets off a shot, some he wouldn't have a chance to. the only interesting discussion stems from the OTHER battles.

back to the battle:

i think we can both agree a battle between chuck and flash is a terrible match up lol one takes the other out quickly. without a shield, standard distance, standard knowledge, flash love taps him for a ko almost everytime.

with the shield in place, i don't see flash taking him out before chuck puts him to sleep--not unless he goes forum flash which i THINK we both consider ooc. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas




speed steal wouldn't stop chuck thinking sleep unless, as i said, he steals all ke and that would likely kill chuck and the others. also not sure if he's ever done that...

but why stop at 1000 clones? it would make things easier, the clones don't need to kill anyone, just help win the fight. if we looked at his fights with grodd, he seems to win all the time. how?

again, you want to take the idea to illogical ends. my original questions was how do you think fights would change if full capacity were simply removed? you think it would help discussion, or hurt it?

again, a rule that let's flash times odin 100/100 is not a rule is compatible with IN CHARACTER. that's all i'm saying.

i simply would like a rule in place that would allow characters like flash and superman to take part in matches that require some actual discussion without the need to feel like they are being neutered.

of course it exists i guess--stips can account for anything, so..... lol this is all meaningless and things won't change. i'll drop it now because you're right we won't agree on it. c'est la vie.

Not quite true.

When he stole the speed of Girder, he stopped him from feeling:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3014870-speedstealgirdir.jpg

He stole the speed from some cops which slowed their blood down:
https://i.imgur.com/fJaJgvX.jpg

Both times, obv, his targets weren't killed - but say (as an example) if Chuck's bloodflow was slowed down and his brain didn't get enough oxygen, KOing him? I know you will argue that in those few seconds it takes, Chuck could still think 'sleep', but my point is not that. My point is that he has done it to slow down internal processes like neurons (Girder feeling pain) and blood (those cops).

But as I said, removing it hurts discussions.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is still wrong because the stips dictate that in this case hulk will kill him....and he has killed before, so....
WWH says no. I specifically used that version.


Agreed - so common sense means if Flash knows of a way to win, he will use it. Chuck will too, of course - but Flash isn't, using common sense, allowing one of the most powerful telepaths a chance to use his attacks.




Then what proportion of the time IN BATTLE does Chuck use 'sleep' as opposed to anything else?

Originally posted by leonidas
back to the battle:

i think we can both agree a battle between chuck and flash is a terrible match up lol one takes the other out quickly. without a shield, standard distance, standard knowledge, flash love taps him for a ko almost everytime.

with the shield in place, i don't see flash taking him out before chuck puts him to sleep--not unless he goes forum flash which i THINK we both consider ooc. /shrug

With the shield in place, Flash still speed steals. He doesn't need physical contact to do so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not quite true.

When he stole the speed of Girder, he stopped him from feeling:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3014870-speedstealgirdir.jpg

He stole the speed from some cops which slowed their blood down:
https://i.imgur.com/fJaJgvX.jpg

Both times, obv, his targets weren't killed - but say (as an example) if Chuck's bloodflow was slowed down and his brain didn't get enough oxygen, KOing him? I know you will argue that in those few seconds it takes, Chuck could still think 'sleep', but my point is not that. My point is that he has done it to slow down internal processes like neurons (Girder feeling pain) and blood (those cops).

But as I said, removing it hurts discussions.

both those case might be enough to convince me he'd be able to ko chuck. would chuck pass out instantly and be unable to get off a thought? maybe. probably.

speed steal would be a viable option here. could he do it through mag's shield? i dunno. it'd be on you to prove it. if you could you'd have a case.

i'm not saying speed steal would NOT be used here, but i'm also saying that i don't think every battle flash wins against grodd where he didn't use it, yet still won, is PIS.

and look, even using it we still have a discussion going. and that, at least imo, is why i bother with the site at all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

WWH says no. I specifically used that version.

continuing your illogical stretch means you created a paradoxical thread i guess....

common sense says the thread would be ridiculous and setting up paradoxical rules doesn't really change that.



as i said, he could speed steal--i'm not convinced it would work. the in charcacter suggestion doesn't preclude using speed steal lol it just means it is also viable that he try something else--or that he loses sometimes.



lol anything else would be just as bad,a nd if flash can speed steal, chuck can sleep. again, the way i see it doesn't change the fact that all powers CAN be discussed. it allows for the opportunity to consider alternatives though.

Originally posted by leonidas
both those case might be enough to convince me he'd be able to ko chuck. would chuck pass out instantly and be unable to get off a thought? maybe. probably.

speed steal would be a viable option here. could he do it through mag's shield? i dunno. it'd be on you to prove it. if you could you'd have a case.

i'm not saying speed steal would NOT be used here, but i'm also saying that i don't think every battle flash wins against grodd where he didn't use it, yet still won, is PIS.

and look, even using it we still have a discussion going. and that, at least imo, is why i bother with the site at all.

Well then we are then down to the SPEED of the speedsteal. The rate, if you will.

Enter, Amazo:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/fe/00/36fe004eb5e819ef3f860e1012068e3b.jpg

Note Amazo frozen in the last panel. And he had superspeed. So before he could formulate a response, it was taken away.

And Amazo had superspeed, and crucially, used it:
https://i.postimg.cc/1XmBCq61/RCO007-2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/34zDYVx6/RCO008-1.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/JDskwMMZ/RCO009-1.jpg

So yeah, if a speedster like Amazo was unable to react in time to form countermeasures against Flash whilst having the speed stolen from him....a human like Chuck isn't reacting in time to form countermeasures.

Now, through the shield.

We've already proven that it can be done through line of sight - he doesn't need to touch to steal speed.

You and I both know Wally is linked closest to the Speed Force. And the Speed Force connects everything in motion. Mags shield doesn't cut things off from kinetic movement (otherwise they'd...stop).

Or he just does it through the ground they're standing on lol.

But surely the onus is ON YOU to prove Mags' shield blocks a speedsteal?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well then we are then down to the SPEED of the speedsteal. The rate, if you will.

Enter, Amazo:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/fe/00/36fe004eb5e819ef3f860e1012068e3b.jpg

Note Amazo frozen in the last panel. And he had superspeed. So before he could formulate a response, it was taken away.

And Amazo had superspeed, and crucially, used it:
https://i.postimg.cc/1XmBCq61/RCO007-2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/34zDYVx6/RCO008-1.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/JDskwMMZ/RCO009-1.jpg

So yeah, if a speedster like Amazo was unable to react in time to form countermeasures against Flash whilst having the speed stolen from him....a human like Chuck isn't reacting in time to form countermeasures.

Now, through the shield.

We've already proven that it can be done through line of sight - he doesn't need to touch to steal speed.

You and I both know Wally is linked closest to the Speed Force. And the Speed Force connects everything in motion. Mags shield doesn't cut things off from kinetic movement (otherwise they'd...stop).

Or he just does it through the ground they're standing on lol.

But surely the onus is ON YOU to prove Mags' shield blocks a speedsteal?

yeah maybe it would be lol but that isn't something i'm interested in working through so i'll just say you've done enough to convince me that if speed steal were used it would likely be enough. speed steal has also been used on energy so there's that. and in this case, where he wouldn't have any other option, it is a viable tactic--though that doesn't mean it's pis every time he beat grodd without it....

that's actually not what i'm saying at all...?

i'd say i'd advocate the exact opposite of what you said--all appearances should be taken into account and how a character should react in a given situation should be dictated by how they are most often portrayed. that doesn't preclude discussion of more exotic powers, it simply means those exotic powers (like an army of time flashes) wouldn't be nearly as viable because it's extremely unlikely he would ever use that in character. /shrug

lol people think Flash would speed steal Prof X, let alone any high tier telepath? We still forgetting marvels speed of thought is faster than light? Speed Steals is connected to speedsters. Hence what is happening to Barry and Amazo( who had super speed), kinetic energy is not always speed related.

When Grodd had him unable to Move(TK)..why didn't he speed steal here?

https://i.postimg.cc/Hrhssj51/cpelo.jpg

i would think that since one flash's main rogues is telepathic that prof x should be able to threaten him as it does in the comics. in character i mean.

i think in character means an average of combat appearances over their span with a skew to what is more recent.

i think the same argument can be made for flash against prof x too. he goes up against a telepath more than a few times so its not going to be a wash.

to me in character means they wouldn't ramp up to sleep mode or to attosecond and the start of the fight.

i think the x-men have a chance only a slim one to get past flash/lantern. i think there maybe a strategy with storm and iceman. i wonder how their powers work with rogue?

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
When Grodd had him unable to Move(TK)..why didn't he speed steal here?

https://i.postimg.cc/Hrhssj51/cpelo.jpg

that would be chocked up to pis. /shrug

Could'nt Ice Man freeze somebody in a 100x100ft block of ice and trap them?

Originally posted by leonidas
that would be chocked up to pis. /shrug

Same way Bobby has been defeated without him completely draining his opponent, or Professor X has been KOd without him thinking sleep, or Odin doesn't use timestop, etc etc /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same way Bobby has been defeated without him completely draining his opponent, or Professor X has been KOd without him thinking sleep, or Odin doesn't use timestop, etc etc /shrug

You're Literally Ignoring The High End Feats Of The people Flash is against here, You also ignoring The more CONSISTENT feats of Flash being Hit,Hurt,Beaten and Attacked By TP/TK whether by Grodd,MM or Hammond.

So high end feats for one group and 'consistent' feats for the other. Wow, this is really a... Fun discussion!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same way Bobby has been defeated without him completely draining his opponent, or Professor X has been KOd without him thinking sleep, or Odin doesn't use timestop, etc etc /shrug

difference is i don't chock that up to pis.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
So high end feats for one group and 'consistent' feats for the other. Wow, this is really a... Fun discussion!

it's been interesting lol

Marvel made it clear that the speed of thought is faster than light, Compared to DC Telepaths (Aside from MMH). Prof X will be able to react to Flash just fine.

Originally posted by leonidas
difference is i don't chock that up to pis.

You think it's in character that they don't do so?

But.....why did you argue Chuck uses it here?

Originally posted by leonidas
that would be chocked up to pis. /shrug

It's not pis, ..No Flash is immune to TP/TK, Though, of course with Plot/Time the HERO will be written to Win. But whether It's Barry https://i.postimg.cc/4mHpJyWC/pik.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/CZhZfxsx/whes.jpg

Or Wally TP is just as Effective esepcially in a random, Grodd knows this

https://i.postimg.cc/w75Tcdvy/thb.jpg

@ds: huh? i was talking about the grodd/flash scene. but regardless--yeah, i think it's all dictated by character--which is dictated by comics. feats that are considered pis are hugely different from the norm.

chocking up an entire series (flash) as pis seems....crazy to me. every battle flash has ever had against a nonflash is pis? logan beats high bricks all the time. if he does it all the time it's still pis? bats is a perfect example. every issue of batman is pis? every time he beats a meta human it's pis? i mean sure, i guess that's what the rules say. just doesn't make sense to me, nor do i think it's necessary.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
they're X-Men. They've spent decades (aside from Mags) living with each other and training in the Danger Room together to work on how their powers complement each other. They don't all have to have been on the same team for high quality team work.

I don't see how any of that is relevant to what I just said.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i feel we may have gone over something like this before. my issue (and it's not really an issue, but rather the way i prefer to interpret the rule) is pretty straight forward--in this thread for example, it has been said that flash would beat this group because, well, he could hit the shield an infinite number of times, for example, and shatter it, that, in effect, he could have a nearly infinite amount of time to take care of business--as he does in almost every thread. it hasn't been stated directly, but the same can be said of superman.

my issue has always been that, yes, they COULD do that. and in a battleboard scenario where they fight at full capacity regardless of whether it is in character or not, they WOULD do that because doing anything else is 'illogical'.

however, that runs 100% contrary to what they WOULD do most often in a comic. even in a situation like this one it's highly unlikely he would ever use that level of speed at the outset of a battle. not because he's dumb, but because that's simply how he's portrayed. the full capacity rule in effect makes it impossible to put anyone but a flash or flash equivalent against flash. i mean, people think someone like odin has zero chance to beat the flash. to me, that's...crazy. it doesn't, and never has, made sense. it runs contrary to what we see all the time, and kills discussion. but it's not limited to speed, it's just that speed is most often the thing that bogs discussion.

i guess i could ask you the same thing i asked ds--if full capacity was eliminated, what effect do you think it would have on battles? let's say instead of full capacity, we substituted most frequent portrayal. of course there would still be arguments about what is the most frequent portrayal, but those would mostly be self evident.

the argument might go--if you don't want speed to be an issue, equalize it. or put someone else up against a speedster. problem is, non-speedsters have cool battles against speedsters all the time. then you'll say PIS! lol and i'll say it isn't pis, it's comics and that over the long haul pis is determined by its differentiation from the normal portrayal so pis gets ruled out automatically. exotic powers can still be brought up and argued as discussions ensue, but at least there COULD be discussion.

lol

tldr, but, you did ask. i'm really not trying to stir up sh!t pr, just, as always, looking for some well reasoned, and well supported discussion. the defense of full capacity just doesn't feel like 'real' support to me, and suggesting this team of powerful x-men has a chance to beat flash shouldn't feel like i have to neuter flash to give them that chance. /shrug

Honestly, it sounds like your issue is more how he's debated by people, as opposed to the guidelines set forth. Wally or Barry won't lose to most people on this board, that's true. But anyone that takes that and applies some fallacy to it? They're the idiot.

I will say that Flash is the exception rather than the rule, though. For almost every other character, I honestly think the rules work just fine. Flash is just where it gets a bit tricky. But not so tricky that it's untenable.

"Most frequent portrayal" is averages, and we go by that already for the most part.

The point of full capacity, as it were, is to make sure that characters don't forget they have certain superpowers and it costing them the fight.

fair enough. and like i said, i didn't want it to be a 'thing'. it seems to come up with speed more than anything.

i'm honestly curious though about your opinion here: if flash in a forum setting can beat down a skyfather, how does that reflect 'in character'? i mean shouldn't what he is capable of doing in a match be DICTATED by what's 'in character'? if you don't think he should be able to beat down odin, how do you justify that in a forum setting? or do you just think flash and other high end speedsters are broken?

if so, i think that kind of sucks because i don't think the CHARACTERS are broken, i think the POWER SET is. but it sucks because they are really interesting characters to discuss but, sadly, the least fun of all characters.

On forum, Flash can beat elder gods and cosmic entities.

In comics, he slips on a banana and breaks every bone in his body.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough. and like i said, i didn't want it to be a 'thing'. it seems to come up with speed more than anything.

i'm honestly curious though about your opinion here: if flash in a forum setting can beat down a skyfather, how does that reflect 'in character'? i mean shouldn't what he is capable of doing in a match be DICTATED by what's 'in character'? if you don't think he should be able to beat down odin, how do you justify that in a forum setting? or do you just think flash and other high end speedsters are broken?

if so, i think that kind of sucks because i don't think the CHARACTERS are broken, i think the POWER SET is. but it sucks because they are really interesting characters to discuss but, sadly, the least fun of all characters.

The problem, as I see it, is that he CAN'T beat a skyfather, nor should he. No matter how powerful a herald is supposed to be, imo, you don't get a to be a skyfather without being above petty little things like heralds. Most of the time at least.

Yes, I know that comic writers and their lack of imagination has things like Thor hurting Galactus, but that's not the average. It's not even what I would consider a high showing. Shit like that is ludicrous. It's also part of why I dislike DC now, as they've blurred the lines far too much with Superman.

You are right though: It's not the character that's broken, it's the powerset, and how people argue it.

When the top Skyfather, Odin, throws down physically with heralds like Jane etc....I mean, these tiers are forum Inventions.

Tomorrow, SBP can thrown down with Darkest Knight, Batman can fight WW, Stark can beat a herald of Galactus, Surfer can stalemate an abstract being, a mere human called Fisk can fight superhumans....why would a character have special protection just because of the tier they're in?

Originally posted by -Pr-
The problem, as I see it, is that he CAN'T beat a skyfather, nor should he. No matter how powerful a herald is supposed to be, imo, you don't get a to be a skyfather without being above petty little things like heralds. Most of the time at least.

Yes, I know that comic writers and their lack of imagination has things like Thor hurting Galactus, but that's not the average. It's not even what I would consider a high showing. Shit like that is ludicrous. It's also part of why I dislike DC now, as they've blurred the lines far too much with Superman.

You are right though: It's not the character that's broken, it's the powerset, and how people argue it.



not just with superman.... but i agree wholeheartedly. it is ludicrous to think flash beats a skyfather 1on1. but it isn't the flash that beats a skyfather in a forum setting, it's his powerset. but we're not supposed to debate powerset... it's really the basis of what i've been saying. i was simply looking for a way to bring character more to the forefront to allow less powerset debate, and more character debate.

and obviously a character doesn't get protection. in the case of flash beating some uber cosmic because of a whacked powerset, it's simply disingenuous to the characters and who and what they are intended to be. i agree with pr's belief that a skyfather should be above petty little things like heralds. lol but it does sort of define them, or at least the spirit of such characters, to be above. at least imo. so saying flash wins 100/100 over him? it makes no sense and isn't reflective of flash the CHARACTER.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When the top Skyfather, Odin, throws down physically with heralds like Jane etc....I mean, these tiers are forum Inventions.

Tomorrow, SBP can thrown down with Darkest Knight, Batman can fight WW, Stark can beat a herald of Galactus, Surfer can stalemate an abstract being, a mere human called Fisk can fight superhumans....why would a character have special protection just because of the tier they're in?

It isn't about protection. The rules themselves don't just apply to the people punching up. Why would a full power Odin even bother with someone like Jane? Because the comic demanded it. Not because they should be anywhere close to being equal in power on average.

Batman doesn't count. Batman never counts. SBP has an S on his chest. That alone disqualifies him too.

Surfer fighting any kind of abstract being and not getting his shit pushed in is, again, the exception, not the rule.

Calling Kingpin a mere Human? I feel like someone will be along to correct that.

Like I said though, the rules aren't just to make sure that people punching up perform at their best; they apply to the top-tier people too. If you have feats that put you in that tier on average, you're going to leave a LOT of characters behind. There are always examples that muddy it up, but they're the exception.

Originally posted by leonidas


not just with superman.... but i agree wholeheartedly. it is ludicrous to think flash beats a skyfather 1on1. but it isn't the flash that beats a skyfather in a forum setting, it's his powerset. but we're not supposed to debate powerset... it's really the basis of what i've been saying. i was simply looking for a way to bring character more to the forefront to allow less powerset debate, and more character debate.

and obviously a character doesn't get protection. in the case of flash beating some uber cosmic because of a whacked powerset, it's simply disingenuous to the characters and who and what they are intended to be. i agree with pr's belief that a skyfather should be above petty little things like heralds. lol but it does sort of define them, or at least the spirit of such characters, to be above. at least imo. so saying flash wins 100/100 over him? it makes no sense and isn't reflective of flash the CHARACTER.

To that I say, it's been a rule for as long as I can remember that the character is more important than the powerset. If people ignore that, then boo to them I say. BOO.

@Leo:For me, saying someone is in character doesn't mean that they are specifically limited to what that character has done on panel.

It's like I always use the 100 ton pencil example.

Superman/Hulk/Thor/Herc have lifted pencils before.
They have lifted 100 tons before
They have NOT, on panel, lifted 100 ton pencils.

We then apply logic and common sense to it. And say yes, even though they've never actually lifted a 100 ton pencil on panel, well, sure, in a forum thread they can do so, easily (assume it's a giant pencil, if people want to argue finger strength or whatever).

We know that in character, Flash doesn't like getting beaten up. We know in character, he is smart (Barry is an actual scientist, and whilst Wally isn't a genius, he's no idiot either).

Using speed defensively (or in this case, offensively to avoid getting beaten) is in character. No one is arguing powersets here.. Your constant arguing of this point is mystifying, especially as someone who says he's fully aware of what a Flash can do.

Saying it's disingenuous to what a character is 'supposed' to be is precisely giving them protection - heralds should know their place, skyfathers theirs. We know physical attacks work on Odin, on Guardians of Oa etc. We know they have reaction speeds that are of a certain level.

Saying 'it doesn't feel right' is just wrong, imo. They're comics. Invisible Woman can throw up shields that stop abstract beings. Hide an entire planet from Sentry and the entire Cancerverse. Batman has tasers that shock Superman, can take punches from WW, and can punch Zoom. Terrax can split planets apart, then fall to Tony.

And a gorilla can survive being punched across the continental US. A gorilla can also take out the Hulk (who in turn, takes out abstracts/Skyfathers). Superboy Prime can be hurt by Damian Wayne...then a few years later, is trading blows with Darkest Knight.

Your definition of in character is...that it's to do with their role in the wider comics universe.

My definition (and what the rules are, so I guess the general definition?) Is to do with their personality. Flash isn't a sadistic killer, so even though his powerset says he can start the match by sucking all the air out of the X team's lungs (Magneto's shield ain't airtight; and I don't mean the usual vortex where Chuck may still get a psiblast off I'm talking instant no air), or GL starts the match by attacking their eyes (like Stewart did to Superman), no one argues that.

Or even that Wally just....sends a time clone back into the past to kill the team as babies.

All of these are powerset debating. NO ONE IS DOING THAT.

@Pr: yeah, Fisk is on paper a mere human. Freakishly big and strong, but human.