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If these two met these days (2021), who would win?

Current versions, no outside amplifications, just who they are on an average day.

In character.

No BFR.

Battlefield: Outer Space.

Opinions?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Surfer is completely intangible now, unless one has soul/mystical attacks (Boy Thing, or Ghost Rider). Would be interesting to see how Knull deals with him.

OTOH, his PC is a lot more limited now ,and he can only blast.

Did you read the latest Fantastic 4 issue? What did you think of his showing if you did?

Originally posted by Stoic
Did you read the latest Fantastic 4 issue? What did you think of his showing if you did?

I did, and I also read the preceding issues.

https://i.postimg.cc/4ybjZ64P/image.jpg

You're leaping to a false conclusion - that because she atomised MM and is a fundamental embodiment etc etc, that she can destroy heralds and metas etc with a flick of a finger. As Reed says, he is certain their allies would be able to hold out for a while.

Which is precisely what Surfer did.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did, and I also read the preceding issues.

https://i.postimg.cc/4ybjZ64P/image.jpg

You're leaping to a false conclusion - that because she atomised MM and is a fundamental embodiment etc etc, that she can destroy heralds and metas etc with a flick of a finger. As Reed says, he is certain their allies would be able to hold out for a while.

Which is precisely what Surfer did.

The correct wording here is that Griever is used to fighting much higher, abstract beings. This in no way states that she cant fight lower beings or affect them at all.
Nothing suggesting she is not operating at full power against them. Just having to get used to fighting smaller, less powerful beings.
So still impressive given the Griever's capabilities and SS fighting and holding her off. Also shits on anything a Lantern, or Superman ever did. 👍

Never said she couldn't fight lower beings. But thanks.

Hal

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did, and I also read the preceding issues.

https://i.postimg.cc/4ybjZ64P/image.jpg

You're leaping to a false conclusion - that because she atomised MM and is a fundamental embodiment etc etc, that she can destroy heralds and metas etc with a flick of a finger. As Reed says, he is certain their allies would be able to hold out for a while.

Which is precisely what Surfer did.

Well how powerful is Griever in your opinion?

Incredibly powerful, especially relative to mere heralds/Skyfathers etc. Abstract level, probably.

So then, this is a highend feat for the Surfer, or about par? I ask because Hal had a similar showing against a version of Krona. How would you scale them in terms of feat comparisons? In short, who holds the better feat? More importantly, who do you think would win between these two these days?

I mean...griever was afraid of franklin

but krona was literally chained to a bunch of colored space animals

both are sorry excuse for a cosmic villain

griever probably more powerful but who cares...

Originally posted by Stoic
So then, this is a highend feat for the Surfer, or about par? I ask because Hal had a similar showing against a version of Krona. How would you scale them in terms of feat comparisons? In short, who holds the better feat? More importantly, who do you think would win between these two these days?

It's a feat. By that I mean, I don't see it as the same. Reed clearly lays it out - it's like trying to punch Covid, lol. Doesn't matter that you are almost infinitely stronger/smarter/faster than Covid - you still can't just punch it out of existence.

The Krona example is almost a reverse. There, the Guardians of Oa specifically had several stips on GL rings - no killing, no harming Guardians. On top of that, Krona could manipulate GL energy himself, AND had the Ion entity under his command at the time (IIRC). Hal just overpowered all of that - didn't matter what the stips were.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's a feat. By that I mean, I don't see it as the same. Reed clearly lays it out - it's like trying to punch Covid, lol. Doesn't matter that you are almost infinitely stronger/smarter/faster than Covid - you still can't just punch it out of existence.

The Krona example is almost a reverse. There, the Guardians of Oa specifically had several stips on GL rings - no killing, no harming Guardians. On top of that, Krona could manipulate GL energy himself, AND had the Ion entity under his command at the time (IIRC). Hal just overpowered all of that - didn't matter what the stips were.

I don't want to twist your words, but are you implying that Hal is infinitely faster, smarter, stronger than the Surfer? It was the Covid analogy that made me ask.

In retrospect, his battle with Griever may shed a tiny bit of light on exactly what he was dealing with against Knull in terms of Knull's power levels. Please don't read too much into the Knull comparison, as it would likely go lead to off subject topics. The thought just came out of left field.

Originally posted by Stoic
I don't want to twist your words, but are you implying that Hal is infinitely faster, smarter, stronger than the Surfer? It was the Covid analogy that made me ask.

In retrospect, his battle with Griever may shed a tiny bit of light on exactly what he was dealing with against Knull in terms of Knull's power levels. Please don't read too much into the Knull comparison, as it would likely go lead to off subject topics. The thought just came out of left field.

Krona feat and Griever feat isn't comparable, just the scope...
Griever is an abstract.

https://i.postimg.cc/xcxvm2TV/dhta.jpg

It’s the embodiment of a concept. So what Surfer did was hold off the embodiment of destruction, What Hal did is nowhere comparable.

Originally posted by Stoic
I don't want to twist your words, but are you implying that Hal is infinitely faster, smarter, stronger than the Surfer? It was the Covid analogy that made me ask.

In retrospect, his battle with Griever may shed a tiny bit of light on exactly what he was dealing with against Knull in terms of Knull's power levels. Please don't read too much into the Knull comparison, as it would likely go lead to off subject topics. The thought just came out of left field.

Oh no no no.

I am saying that just as you and I are infinitely stronger than say, Covid, Griever was stronger/faster/more powerful than Surfer.

That doesn't mean that Surfer stalemating her for 16 minutes means that Surfer is on her level - it just meant she finds fighting beings below her difficult (as Reed says).

In short, it's not really comparable to Hal's, simply because the circumstances are different - Surfer did as well as he did only because he was a lower life form than Griever.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh no no no.

I am saying that just as you and I are infinitely stronger than say, Covid, Griever was stronger/faster/more powerful than Surfer.

That doesn't mean that Surfer stalemating her for 16 minutes means that Surfer is on her level - it just meant she finds fighting beings below her difficult (as Reed says).

In short, it's not really comparable to Hal's, simply because the circumstances are different - Surfer did as well as he did only because he was a lower life form than Griever.

That's not really relevant to Surfer, Surfer was stated to be apart of the cosmos several times. Also, many lower life forms have tried as stated by Griever and SS held her off longer than anyone credited by Griever herself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did, and I also read the preceding issues.

https://i.postimg.cc/4ybjZ64P/image.jpg

You're leaping to a false conclusion - that because she atomised MM and is a fundamental embodiment etc etc, that she can destroy heralds and metas etc with a flick of a finger. As Reed says, he is certain their allies would be able to hold out for a while.

Which is precisely what Surfer did.

That's in the beginning when Griever begins fighting opponents of that calibre.
However, when the Forever Gate storyline begins, Griever is casually backhanding whoever is present, which includes Reed in an anti-matter field that is supposed to be powerful enough to fights off Heralds:

https://i.postimg.cc/8syTW19H/fevd.jpg

I think the point Alberto is trying to make is that Hal is abstract level and Norrin should be able to hang for a while before being overpowered

Silver surfer was the greater feat. Krona was running on stolen incomplete power barely using it to its full possible potential. Griever is an aspect, definitely higher up on the tree than krona 👍

Originally posted by Bentley
I think the point Alberto is trying to make is that Hal is abstract level and Norrin should be able to hang for a while before being overpowered

this is why I love you

the term used here is USED to fighting higher level beings, thus initially she was having an issue holding off his allies as they were much below the level she fought. It's not a weakness or downside, but merely familiarity or experience.
When she popped up the next time, she was strolling through them casually. It took FR outsmarting Griever to appear to have a chance, but given what Sue and Reed did earlier, she walked right through them and trapped the FF.
So at this point, we can't say she has the same problem she had earlier. its not a weakness or dampener when she clashed with them initially.

https://i.postimg.cc/R36mSn48/neth.jpg

Originally posted by Bentley
I think the point Alberto is trying to make is that Hal is abstract level and Norrin should be able to hang for a while before being overpowered lol