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What if Darth Vader replaced the defenders at Helms Deep.


How far would he get before being overwhelmed?


All feats valid, including Legacy.

There were, what? 10,000 of Sauron's minions at Helms Deep?

Even though most/all of them would be fodder(relative to Vader), that's still a LOT of fodder to deal with.

Originally posted by Galan007
There were, what? 10,000 of Sauron's minions at Helms Deep?

Even though most/all of them would be fodder(relative to Vader), that's still a LOT of fodder to deal with.
He'd at least be able to 1shot those Uruk Hai from blowing the wall up. So will at least have the safety of the walls.

Although, if he's alone, I can see him getting distracted...

Originally posted by cdtm
What if Darth Vader replaced the defenders at Helms Deep.


How far would he get before being overwhelmed?


All feats valid, including Legacy.

First things first, my insane friend.

You want us to use Movie Helm's Deep or the one from the books?

The one from the books had much less action, but the army storming the Rohirrim was more diverse than the one shown in the movie (which was composed only of Uruk-hai).

Originally posted by Galan007
There were, what? 10,000 of Sauron's minions at Helms Deep?

Saruman's. Not Sauron's.

At least 10,000, according to Aragorn. And Saruman says he'd need tens of thousands troops in order to beat Theoden at Helm's Deep, when replying to Grima.

Uruk-hai, specifically. Bred and "invented" by Saruman, different from Black Uruks from Mordor.



But in books, they also had Wargs, Dunlendings and perhaps normal orcs as well... and Tolkien barely bothered to describe the battle.



Original source fanboys will disagree, but it's a simple truth that Peter Jackson was vastly superior in some areas than Tolkien.

This nerd

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He'd at least be able to 1shot those Uruk Hai from blowing the wall up. So will at least have the safety of the walls.

Although, if he's alone, I can see him getting distracted... Yeah, if Vader starts off atop the wall, and watches the army slowly march in from afar, it's a different story.

In that case he could destroy their ladder tech, trebuchets, and bombardiers before they ever got close enough to attack, and solo droves of the army before they ever reached him(TK aside, just imagine what saber throws could do to the army.)

tl;dr
Vader could win in that scenario, as he would finally have the high ground.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This nerd I have Stilt on ignore now.

One Uruk is enough.

As soon as Vader is on the field that one mouthy one is going to shout that meat is back on the menu and then gang rape him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

But in books, they also had Wargs, Dunlendings and perhaps normal orcs as well... and Tolkien barely bothered to describe the battle.

Original source fanboys will disagree, but it's a simple truth that Peter Jackson was vastly superior in some areas than Tolkien.

Too true. God bless Tolkien but he often spent way too much time describing trivial things and glossed over important ones.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
First things first, my insane friend.

You want us to use Movie Helm's Deep or the one from the books?

The one from the books had much less action, but the army storming the Rohirrim was more diverse than the one shown in the movie (which was composed only of Uruk-hai).



Saruman's. Not Sauron's.

At least 10,000, according to Aragorn. And Saruman says he'd need tens of thousands troops in order to beat Theoden at Helm's Deep, when replying to Grima.

Uruk-hai, specifically. Bred and "invented" by Saruman, different from Black Uruks from Mordor.



But in books, they also had Wargs, Dunlendings and perhaps normal orcs as well... and Tolkien barely bothered to describe the battle.



Original source fanboys will disagree, but it's a simple truth that Peter Jackson was vastly superior in some areas than Tolkien.

Originally posted by Galan007
trebuchets

There weren't any trebuchets.

Trebuchets aren't even mobile, Galan.

The only ones were used by Gondor in the battle of Minas Tirith in RotK.


You're thinking of ballistas... at least some of which were combined with the aforementioned ladder tech.


Saruman's Uruks did have crossbows, though. That's not a problem for Vader unless he loses his focus for one critical moment.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
First things first, my insane friend.

You want us to use Movie Helm's Deep or the one from the books?

The one from the books had much less action, but the army storming the Rohirrim was more diverse than the one shown in the movie (which was composed only of Uruk-hai).



Saruman's. Not Sauron's.

At least 10,000, according to Aragorn. And Saruman says he'd need tens of thousands troops in order to beat Theoden at Helm's Deep, when replying to Grima.

Uruk-hai, specifically. Bred and "invented" by Saruman, different from Black Uruks from Mordor.



But in books, they also had Wargs, Dunlendings and perhaps normal orcs as well... and Tolkien barely bothered to describe the battle.



Original source fanboys will disagree, but it's a simple truth that Peter Jackson was vastly superior in some areas than Tolkien.

does your nerd know no limits....?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
One Uruk is enough.

As soon as Vader is on the field that one mouthy one is going to shout that meat is back on the menu and then gang rape him.

https://i.imgur.com/PUy658X.gif

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Too true. God bless Tolkien but he often spent way too much time describing trivial things and glossed over important ones.

the books....sucked. classic, revolutionary, almost impossibly impactful, but...terrible and a pure drudge to read.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He'd at least be able to 1shot those Uruk Hai from blowing the wall up. So will at least have the safety of the walls.

Although, if he's alone, I can see him getting distracted...

And tired as hell.

Originally posted by leonidas
the books....sucked. classic, revolutionary, almost impossibly impactful, but...terrible and a pure drudge to read.

There is some truth to it, yes.

Tolkien has described mundane stuff such as singing and feasting in dozens and dozens (and dozens) of pages... while barely paying any attention to actual battles that were supposed to be the culmination of some books (Battle of Five Armies or Helm's Deep are perfect examples).

That's why I'm mainly just the movie fan.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
There weren't any trebuchets.

Trebuchets aren't even mobile, Galan.

The only ones were used by Gondor in the battle of Minas Tirith in RotK.


You're thinking of ballistas... at least some of which were combined with the aforementioned ladder tech.


Saruman's Uruks did have crossbows, though. That's not a problem for Vader unless he loses his focus for one critical moment. https://i.gifer.com/XJ8L.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/b8/5f/59/b85f59505da61b12b66ae2087f9ddcad--lord-of-the-rings-the-lord.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
the books....sucked. classic, revolutionary, almost impossibly impactful, but...terrible and a pure drudge to read.

I thought the hobbit was a legitimately enjoyable read. The trilogy however? Not so much.

Fit Bada is about to hand out wedgies to nerds in this thread.

Fat Bada is about to steal the lunch money of nerds in this thread.

Dominion is about to sue both Badas for defamation.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I thought the hobbit was a legitimately enjoyable read. The trilogy however? Not so much.



I agree.

The Hobbit is fast-paced and just plain fun to read.

But it needs to be said that Tolkien did a poor ass job describing the Battle of the Five Armies.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's why I'm mainly just the movie fan. Stilt "the anti-hipster" manFTW

Originally posted by Badabing
Fit Bada is about to hand out wedgies to nerds in this thread.

Fat Bada is about to steal the lunch money of nerds in this thread.

https://www.deviantart.com/johannenson/art/Buford-gives-Phineas-a-wedgie-850894902

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


I agree.

The Hobbit is fast-paced and just plain fun to read.

But it needs to be said that Tolkien did a poor ass job describing the Battle of the Five Armies.

For starters, who the heck the five armies are.

If Wolves count as an army, why not the eagles?

Athens only way that this could be a challenge for Vader is if he was only allowed to use his lightsaber and no force powers. As it stands, he decimates.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, if Vader starts off atop the wall, and watches the army slowly march in from afar, it's a different story.

In that case he could destroy their ladder tech, trebuchets, and bombardiers before they ever got close enough to attack, and solo droves of the army before they ever reached him(TK aside, just imagine what saber throws could do to the army.)

tl;dr
Vader could win in that scenario, as he would finally have the high ground.

I'll do you one better.

Vader is safe inside the keep, and just using his Force powers without even being physically present on the walls

Originally posted by deathslash
Athens only way that this could be a challenge for Vader is if he was only allowed to use his lightsaber and no force powers. As it stands, he decimates.

By challenge, do you mean impossible?


Pretty sure even a lightsaber isn't cutting down 10-20 thousand things before being swamped.

Originally posted by cdtm
By challenge, do you mean impossible?


Pretty sure even a lightsaber isn't cutting down 10-20 thousand things before being swamped.

It probably could, actually.

Cutting things like flesh with a lightsaber is pretty easy. The saber itself weighs next to nothing (so it doesn't exactly need a lot of concentration/will),

Vader doesn't need to get within arrow range like the Elves/humans did. He's managed to exert his powers through space (when he choked his commander over vid screen).

So at this point (t=32seconds):

78IJdhvY1zg?t=32

His blade can already be spinning through their ranks at head height (and thanks to them all being uniformly bred, they're all roughly the same height). No fatigue.

Or he could just cause a massive landslide and kill a good portion of them as they enter that choke point.

Originally posted by cdtm
By challenge, do you mean impossible?


Pretty sure even a lightsaber isn't cutting down 10-20 thousand things before being swamped. no, I mean challenge as in "could potentially be too much for him". Between his skill, precognition, and literal laser sword, he could potentially funnel them into narrow hallways and other choke points to mitigate their numerical advantage. Then it just becomes a question of whether Vader can do that for several hours.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It probably could, actually.

Cutting things like flesh with a lightsaber is pretty easy. The saber itself weighs next to nothing (so it doesn't exactly need a lot of concentration/will),

Vader doesn't need to get within arrow range like the Elves/humans did. He's managed to exert his powers through space (when he choked his commander over vid screen).

So at this point (t=32seconds):

78IJdhvY1zg?t=32

His blade can already be spinning through their ranks at head height (and thanks to them all being uniformly bred, they're all roughly the same height). No fatigue.

Or he could just cause a massive landslide and kill a good portion of them as they enter that choke point. Just imagine what Vader could do to the army if he spammed saber throws like this, for example:
Originally posted by Galan007
Part III: Lightsaber Skill & Noteworthy Battles


Uses a saber-throw to drop a speeding X-Wing out of the sky:
https://i.ibb.co/M5mcjCz/throw7.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/vd6ZNy0/throw8.jpg

*And for a point of reference, an X-Wing's in-atmosphere flight speed is 652mph:
https://i.ibb.co/7tr3GqY/throw9.jpg
...So that's one helluva throw.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Vader doesn't need to get within arrow range like the Elves/humans did.

Crossbows don't use arrows. They use bolts (also known as quarrels).

They are known for superior range and power, but they take more time to reload.

It'd be actually interesting to examine Vader's saber throw feats closely. It all started with that lacklustre throw from RotJ, but saber throws have evolved a lot since then, obv.

edit: I see Galan couldn't stop himself and already posted one, that was quick.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Crossbows don't use arrows. They use bolts (also known as quarrels).

They are known for superior range and power, but they take more time to reload.

It'd be actually interesting to examine Vader's saber throw feats closely. It all started with that lacklustre throw from RotJ, but saber throws have evolved a lot since then, obv.

edit: I see Galan couldn't stop himself and already posted one, that was quick.

The elves and humans didn't use crossbows, but bows and arrows. I know fully what I said

My point was the alliance waited until they were in range before they started massing volleys of arrows. Whereas Vader has shown Force control over much larger ranges.

https://tinyurl.com/n92hz3qx


This scan is the most delicious thing on the whole Internet.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/n92hz3qx


This scan is the most delicious thing on the whole Internet.

That's Vader Year One. Later on, he was choking Prince Xizor from across the galaxy.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It probably could, actually.

Cutting things like flesh with a lightsaber is pretty easy. The saber itself weighs next to nothing (so it doesn't exactly need a lot of concentration/will),

Vader doesn't need to get within arrow range like the Elves/humans did. He's managed to exert his powers through space (when he choked his commander over vid screen).

So at this point (t=32seconds):

78IJdhvY1zg?t=32

His blade can already be spinning through their ranks at head height (and thanks to them all being uniformly bred, they're all roughly the same height). No fatigue.

Or he could just cause a massive landslide and kill a good portion of them as they enter that choke point.

Yeah, but deathslash said "no force powers".

Which should include precognition or stamina/speed enhancements and such, let alone tk.


More or less the scenerio comic book Darth Vader is currently going through.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's Vader Year One. Later on, he was choking Prince Xizor from across the galaxy.

Yeah, range shouldn't be a problem, especially if we include all feats from both continuites, as cdtm wanted.

He still needs to maintain his concentration long enough to slaughter at least 10,000 superhuman opponents, though. That could be a problem, considering how easily Force users tend to get distracted and punked.

10,000 Chewies all eager to give Vader the rosebutt treatment again.