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Raven (Future State: Shazam) vs Dark Phoenix Jean

what has raven done that make you think she's even close to Phoenix

Dark Phoenix disintegrates Raven.

Dark Pheonix god stomps

To be fair, this is Raven from Future State: Shazam.

Also to be fair, that Raven has basically only posed in a splash page reveal so far.

Raven and her siblings recently toppled Superman Prime 1 million as well, but that may not be what form she's in currently in the Future State arc. I've always seen Raven as the most powerful Titan, and a rival of Dark Phoenix Jean.

Originally posted by Stoic
Raven and her siblings recently toppled Superman Prime 1 million as well.
I think it was the seven deadly sins that offed him.

Raven and her Siblings. Raven represents Pride. In the Marvel U, Raven would be a full blown Abstract, a small one but still.

I thought the Sins were just her minions which includes pride.

Hmm, I always thought that she was Pride. I'll have to check it out.

Also, unkindness Raven absolutely stomps here.

Raven

I just had a re-read of the relevant issues of Future State. What did the Unkindness do that makes her so uber? Just want to check that i haven't missed anything.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I just had a re-read of the relevant issues of Future State. What did the Unkindness do that makes her so uber? Just want to check that i haven't missed anything. Do you mean why is she considered so strong or how did she get so strong?

Originally posted by Juntai
Do you mean why is she considered so strong or how did she get so strong?

Just asking for feats i guess to see if ive missed some. Because I'm looking through Future State and can't see any depicted or even referenced in Future State that place Unkindness Raven on the level referred to by some in this thread.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I thought the Sins were just her minions which includes pride.

You're right

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I just had a re-read of the relevant issues of Future State. What did the Unkindness do that makes her so uber? Just want to check that i haven't missed anything.
She basically devoured every thread of existence.

She destroyed all of creation including the higher dimensions, heaven, hell, speedforce dimension, the 4th world and the dimensions of The Endless. She was consuming and absorbing hypertime, wiping out entire timelines. Every thread of existence.

The last survivors including the Quintessence hid themselves in Fate's tower and she just walked in and killed everyone effortlessly.

She couldn't be stopped. The only way to stop her was to prevent her from merging with the 4 Horsemen.

By the time of FS Black Adam in her absorption of all that is, she was stronger than Perpetua or Hecate.
https://imgur.com/gallery/0QLaWp9

Writer says she's more powerful than the Presence.
https://imgur.com/gallery/MgAOIOa

He also answered another question, saying she would beat Michael and Lucifer at the same time, but I think that's a given if you're above The Presence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Any verification of this amp? Looking at the comic it doesn't state that she was amping them. It does show the 7 Deadly Sins entangled in her energy signature which could also be interpreted as them being under her sway. In none of the other scenes is she hitting them with energy like that. She didn't need to hold them under sway. She certainly didn't when she brought them to Fate's tower to fight a room of gods, lords of order and other top end heros.
She had to sneak attack SMP1M, and amp the group of magic beings to put him down long enough to win.

Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was. Even without the amps she got, she's a potential universe conqueror or more. She's much stronger than Trigon is, but holds the darkness at bay with her Rachel personality. Her every single moment of her life is a struggle with not trying to kill everyone around her and destroy everything all the time. She said that darkness consuming her is always closer than her next breath is.

Originally posted by Juntai
In none of the other scenes is she hitting them with energy like that. She didn't need to hold them under sway. She certainly didn't when she brought them to Fate's tower to fight a room of gods, lords of order and other top end heros.
She had to sneak attack SMP1M, and amp the group of magic beings to put him down long enough to win.

Thats supposition.

Nowhere in the scene is it stated that she was amping them. Thats just how youve chosen to interpret that particular panel. Theres nothing conclusive in said scene to verify said interpretation so this "amping" isnt something you can assert, despite how convinced you might be that the ambiguous art shows what you think it does.

Not being arsey. It just is what it is. Have to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to quality of evidence, otherwise its just a free for all where we're accepting purple prose and/or wishy washy artistic expression as a substitute for the explicit and conclusive.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Fully powered Raven is just too much for any Phoenix. Damn, I forgot how powerful she was.

Based on what? What did she do to support that statement? She was consuming the dimensions that make up the DC universe.

I hope thats not it or she stands no chance against the best Phoenix hosts and would get absolutely annihilated by the Phoenix Force itself

Originally posted by Juntai
Even without the amps she got, she's a potential universe conqueror or more. She's much stronger than Trigon is, but holds the darkness at bay with her Rachel personality. Her every single moment of her life is a struggle with not trying to kill everyone around her and destroy everything all the time. She said that darkness consuming her is always closer than her next breath is.

Even with the amps, what did she actually do? Potential and inference do not cut it.

Apart from consuming part of the DC universe, what did she do that was so uber?

List the feats within Future State: Suicide Squad 1 and 2, that i must be overlooking given the hype?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Based on what? What did she do to support that statement? She was consuming the dimensions that make up the DC universe.

I hope thats not it or she stands no chance against the best Phoenix hosts and would get absolutely annihilated by the Phoenix Force itself

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats supposition.

Nowhere in the scene is it stated that she was amping them. Thats just how youve chosen to interpret that particular panel. Theres nothing conclusive in said scene to verify said interpretation so this "amping" isnt something you can assert, despite how convinced you might be that the ambiguous art shows what you think it does.

Not being arsey. It just is what it is. Have to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to quality of evidence, otherwise its just a free for all where we're accepting purple prose and/or wishy washy artistic expression as a substitute for the explicit and conclusive. It took all of them. Unkindness was helping, and so were the LOC.
https://imgur.com/gallery/9kcBNM5

Originally posted by Juntai


I hope this smiley isnt a substitute for feats?

Originally posted by Juntai
It took all of them. Unkindness was helping, and so were the LOC.
https://imgur.com/gallery/9kcBNM5

Cool. So this shows what the writers intentions were.

But that doesnt do the Unkindness any favours, it makes her look less effective and less uber, if she required the combined abilities of the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins to take down Superman Prime.

If she washed him solo, then that would add some validity to this "top tier Unkindness" narrative that is otherwise unsupported on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Even with the amps, what did she actually do? Potential and inference do not cut it.

Apart from consuming part of the DC universe, what did she do that was so uber?

List the feats within Future State: Suicide Squad 1 and 2, that i must be overlooking given the hype? Oh, I've already said what she did. She defeated everyone and everything. She was the unavoidable, unstoppable end of all creation, and not just the universes of the multiverse, but all the higher realms and conceptual realms as well that exist outside of it.


The fact that she could walk into Fates tower and flick her wrist and kill a room of people that can destroy universes/multiverses is all anyone needs to know that Dark Pheonix doesn't stand a chance by feats.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cool. So this shows what the writers intentions were.

But that doesnt do the Unkindness any favours, it makes her look less effective and less uber, if she required the combined abilities of the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins to take down Superman Prime.

If she washed him solo, then that would add some validity to this "top tier Unkindness" narrative that is otherwise unsupported on panel.

Its a testament to how powerful Superman Prime is, not the other way.

Superman is the physical manifestation of hope. He is the meta-verses antibody.
It was a metaphorical signal, when he fell, hope was lost.

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh, I've already said what she did. She defeated everyone and everything. She was the unavoidable, unstoppable end of all creation, and not just the universes of the multiverse, but all the higher realms as well that exist outside of it.

This isnt true though. This was achieved in alliance with her minions, the LOC and the 7 Deadly Sins. On top of that a lot of the destruction she caused in the universe was off panel so her contribution to it in comparison to her minions is unquantifiable.

Did the full destruction actually happen? If not then it was neither unavoidable or unstoppable.


Originally posted by Juntai
The fact that she could walk into Fates tower and flick her wrist and kill a room of people that can destroy universes/multiverses is all anyone needs to know that Dark Pheonix doesn't stand a chance by feats.

She was allowed entry into Fates tower by the Resurrection Man, plus it was her minions who took out most of the Quintessence. She was only responsible for taking out the Wizard. An alternate future Wizard at that with unquantifiable power levels and next to no feats. Same goes for the rest off this alternate future Quintessence which was composed of different members to the main continuity, again all with unquantifiable power levels due to a distinct lack of feats.

So when it comes down to it, all the Unkindness has to her name is:

destroying some dimensions that make up part of this alternate future DC universe off panel under unknown circumstances

Combining powers with LOC and the 7 Deadly Sins to take out Superman Prime

Killing an alternate future Wizard of zero notable feats.

Originally posted by Juntai


Its a testament to how powerful Superman Prime is, not the other way.

Superman is the physical manifestation of hope. He is the meta-verses antibody.
It was a metaphorical signal, when he fell, hope was lost.

Exactly. Which is why i said its not the Unkindness that was done any favours through that incident.

Why you laughing? We're good right?

Im hoping youre not one of those who gets upset and defensive during debate? I cant remember, its been ages since we've done this

Even Raven before all the amps of this story is probably DC's closest analog to Phoenix. Her Soul Self is the nexus to every soul in existence as well as a nexus to all realities. In her Soul Self is like a version of the white hot room where she impacts the multiverse. She's warped the multiverse. She could snuff out every star. She's even gone from Dark to White versions and back again a few times. Etc. They would probably understand eachother and be homies.


Even in her current form went toe to toe with Spectre until they could re-merge him with Corrigan. Even the Lords of Order and Chaos could barely slow down Spectre, and he and many of them can end multiverses. The Lords of Order and the Quintessence and Spectre ran and hid from her to try to figure out anything they could do.


The Unkindness is her at her most powerful and growing stronger over many
centuries and then add the 4 Horsemen, who are already as strong as any being in existence, then amplified within her, and the power of Shazam, and all the magical artifacts and dimensional/multiverse/timeline absorption she did.

She was way beyond her normal self.
Its very clear what the story was telling us.
And the writer himself confirms and tells us her place in the hierarchy.

Anyways, I think you'd really like Raven.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Did the full destruction actually happen? If not then it was neither unavoidable or unstoppable. Yes. All except Fates tower and a couple pieces of land from a few places they were able to save after she destroyed them and hid them before she could absorb them. The plan was to wait it out and rebuild. She had otherwise absorbed the multiverse and higher dimensions and was clearly devouring hypertime as we saw peoples whole timeline cease to exist.

Originally posted by Juntai
Even Raven before all the amps of this story is probably DC's closest analog to Phoenix. Her Soul Self is the nexus to every soul in existence as well as a nexus to all realities. In her Soul Self is like a version of the white hot room where she impacts the multiverse. She's warped the multiverse. She could snuff out every star. She's even gone from Dark to White versions and back again a few times. Etc. They would probably understand eachother and be homies.


Even in her current form went toe to toe with Spectre until they could re-merge him with Corrigan. Even the Lords of Order and Chaos could barely slow down Spectre, and he and many of them can end multiverses. The Lords of Order and the Quintessence and Spectre ran and hid from her to try to figure out anything they could do.


The Unkindness is her at her most powerful and growing stronger over many
centuries and then add the 4 Horsemen, who are already as strong as any being in existence, then amplified within her, and the power of Shazam, and all the magical artifacts and dimensional/multiverse/timeline absorption she did.

She was way beyond her normal self.
Its very clear what the story was telling us.
And the writer himself confirms and tells us her place in the hierarchy.

Anyways, I think you'd really like Raven.

I do like Raven. Ive been an on and off Teen Titans reader for years. I just think that the feats of the Unkindness arent particularly noteworthy amongst the top tier cosmics from both Marvel and DC.

Gradually destroying parts of the universe with the help of minions contributing an unquantified amount to this process is great, but not a colossal feat. Referring to feats of standard Raven, doesn't counter or make up for the lack of feats possessed by the Unkindness. The fact that you have to refer to other versions of Raven to convince how powerful the Unkindness is just speaks for her lack of feats. Im not saying she isnt powerful, im just saying how powerful she truly was is unquantifiable because what she did do dring her brief panel time just wasnt that great. Thats a reality you just gotta accept.

Top Phoenix hosts erase realities casually with a thought. Its light work to them. Unkindness has not demonstrated anywhere near that tier of power.

The White Hot Room is both the origin and endpoint of all Marvel creation (The 1st Firmament and Multi-Eternity) Raven is derivative of creation, creation is derivative of the Phoenix, the White Hot Room is the the higher dimensional plane where the the Phoenix is made to be TOAAs creation power. Ravens soul self is not its DC analogue. She is a derivative being numerous tiers below the Phoenix Force and not even on par with its top hosts going by feats.

The closest analogue to the true Phoenix Force in DC would be the Source. The Monitor Sphere would be the Beyond Realm where the Beyonders dwell as the engineers and protectors of creation and the Overvoid would be the White Hot Room.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yes. All except Fates tower and a couple pieces of land from a few places they were able to save after she destroyed them and hid them before she could absorb them. The plan was to wait it out and rebuild. She had otherwise absorbed the multiverse and higher dimensions and was clearly devouring hypertime as we saw peoples whole timeline cease to exist.

It didnt say she had destroyed all of the universe. It stated she had focused on the great places of power 1st and that the rest of the universe was a work in progress.

Going from place to place gradually consuming reality is a great feat but its not as uber as youre asserting. If she was wiping out dimensions casually in an instant then that would place her level with a top Phoenix host. Instead it was a drawn out gradual process that was supported by her multitude of minions. Its just not the same tier.

The Unkindness unfortunately, just doesnt have the spread of feats to quantify just how powerful she was and what isnt a help is her reliance on minions to aid in the destruction. Given dimensions were destroyed off panel you cant quantify her contribution(versus her minions), how it was achieved, how long it took to achieve it and how easy it was for her.

In contrast you have Phoenix hosts destroying an entire reality casually with a thought and hosts altering the realities of the entire multiverse simultaneously. Not a long trawl through dimensions with backup from a dozen minions.

I completely disagree with almost everything you just wrote. From both your summary of the Phoenix to your summary of the story, which doesn’t align with what happened or what the writer intended, which has already been posted.

Also, Dark Phoenix is a rather specific version of the character. What do see as her best feat in that incarnation?

Originally posted by Juntai
I completely disagree with almost everything you just wrote. From both your summary of the Phoenix to your summary of the story, which doesn’t align with what happened or what the writer intended, which has already been posted.

You can disagree, thats your prerogative, but without any contrary conclusive evidence, it is what it is.

Unkindness has a distinct lack of feats. What she did do was cool, but not top tier. Writers can state all they want after the fact, but unless it made it into an official publication it doesnt matter a dime. Whats printed, is whats canon and what we go by in terms of versus match ups.

As for my summary of the Phoenix, i only state what i can back up. Which part did you disagree with specifically?

Originally posted by Juntai
Also, Dark Phoenix is a rather specific version of the character. What do see as her best feat in that incarnation?

Dark Phoenix is just a state of mind for a Phoenix host whereby it acts on its destructive impulses and is lead by negative emotions. Jean was Dark Phoenix multiple times throughout 2005's Phoenix Endsong. She cycled through all Phoenix colours in the space of a few pages in that title as her state of mind shifted.

There is no power difference, just a difference in head space. So any of Jeans Phoenix feats could be referenced, except she would have the propensity to be ruthless with it due to this being her Dark Phoenix state.

This is just an attempt at you wanting to pick and choose, because of many later additions, changes and retcons to the role and power and Marvel cosmic hierarchy, but the OP wrote a specific version/era here.

What's her biggest feat when she was Dark Phoenix, does it compare to consuming the omniverse and destroying everything, even everything that exists outside of time and space?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Based on what? What did she do to support that statement? She was consuming the dimensions that make up the DC universe.

I hope thats not it or she stands no chance against the best Phoenix hosts and would get absolutely annihilated by the Phoenix Force itself
Lol, lmao even.

Just the last vestige of Wizard's power was compared to the big bang itself and disrupted the fabric of entire omniverse.

https://postimg.cc/VJmSXSRy
https://postimg.cc/Z9qCD12V

Originally posted by Juntai
This is just an attempt at you wanting to pick and choose, because of many later additions, changes and retcons to the role and power and Marvel cosmic hierarchy, but the OP wrote a specific version/era here.

What's her biggest feat when she was Dark Phoenix, does it compare to consuming the omniverse and destroying everything, even everything that exists outside of time and space?

No. The OP simply said Dark Phoenix Jean. Not Jean in Uncanny X-men issue x to y. Jean has gone Dark Phoenix multiple times within comics and its canon that Dark Phoenix is just a state of mind.

Whats Unkindness Ravens biggest feat beyond:

Collaboratively destroying dimensions with her minions off panel (thereby making her contribution unquantifiable, making how she achieved this unknown and also leaving it unknown how difficult or easy this was for her)

watching her minions take out Superman Prime

Watching her minions take out the Quintessence before finally getting her hands dirty and killing the Wizard?

There was angels, gods, demons, Spectre, Stranger, The Wizard and even 5d imps in there hiding from her because she already devoured their realms or destroyed their universes and there was nowhere she hadn’t devoured. lol.

Imagine the power required to run in and conquer and devour a realm full of 5D Imps. lol.

Unimaginably beyond anything Jean did as Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Just the last vestige of Wizard's power was compared to the big bang itself and disrupted the fabric of entire omniverse.

https://postimg.cc/VJmSXSRy
https://postimg.cc/Z9qCD12V

It wasnt compared to the Big Bang. The comic says "as in the beginning there was the word..and now the last of an ancient wizards power, wrapped up in that word, sends Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

The word theyre talking about is "Shazam" as shown in your scan.

Its simply saying just like how the word Shazam was the start of a new beginning for Teth Adam (making him Black Adam), the same word is the beginning of a new journey for him.

Or are you asserting that the word Shazam started the DC universe? lol

Here, the word Shazam set Teth on a new journey, as it sent him back through time with Adams journey through the timestream disrupting the fabric of reality. Cool.

Originally posted by Juntai
There was angels, gods, demons, Spectre, Stranger, The Wizard and even 5d imps in there hiding from her because she already devoured their realms or destroyed their universes and there was nowhere she hadn’t devoured. lol.

Imagine the power required to run in and conquer and devour a realm full of 5D Imps. lol.

Unimaginably beyond anything Jean did as Dark Phoenix.

The problem is it was off panel and it was a collaborative feat with her dozen minions. A big bad who is dependent on the power of others and for the most part lets her minions do the lionshare of the work whilst she watches and then takes on the leftover scraps.

Thats the crux of the matter. We cant give her a pass for inferred power as you seem to want to do. We go by on panel feats and the circumstances behind hers leaves the biggest one (destroying dimensions) unverifiable and unquantifiable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It wasnt compared to the Big Bang. The comic says "as in the beginning there was the word..and now the last of an ancient wizards power, wrapped up in that word, sends Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

In the beginning word means "Let there be light" which created the world as per DC lore.

Amazing how much of an idiot you are lol. It shows just how powerful Wizard was, not that he sent Adam on a journey lmao

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The problem is it was off panel and it was a collaborative feat with her dozen minions. A big bad who is dependent on the power of others and for the most part lets her minions do the lionshare of the work whilst she watches and then takes on the leftover scraps.

Thats the crux of the matter. We cant give her a pass for inferred power as you seem to want to do. We go by on panel feats and the circumstances behind hers leaves the biggest one (destroying dimensions) unverifiable and unquantifiable.
"Devouring every thread of existence is unquantifiable and unverifiable"

https://i.postimg.cc/52ZwWtmF/image.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
In the beginning word means "Let there be light" which created the world as per DC lore.

What you've done is see the phrase "As in the beginning there was the word" and its like your brain shut off after that sentence and youve run off with an interpretation stubbornly clinging on to it ignoring the context given by the comic to explain that sentence

Immediately before the comic says "In the beginning there was the word" the comic shows us what word it was talking about:

https://imgur.com/IjptH0x

"SHAZAM" - That is the word being referred to. That is the word focused on and stated immediately before the sentence in question.

The comic then doubles down on its confirmation of what word it was talking about:

"And now the last of an ancient wizards power wrapped up in THAT word send Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

https://imgur.com/xhA6UK9

The comic explains that the word being talked about is one that the Wizards power is wrapped in. What word in DC lore is the Wizards power connected to?

https://imgur.com/5E0Y7Xj

"SHAZAM"

As the wizard lays dying, he tells Black Adam to say his name. The name that calls on his power according to DC lore. As Black Adam says "Shazam" he is sent hurtling through the multiverse.

Something your own evidence confirms:

https://imgur.com/OW4Xg87

"With his last ounce of strength he guided me here..."

There is zero reference to the Big Bang.

You completely ignored the explicit context given immediately before the scene where the Wizard tells Teth to say the word "Shazam," the context in the scene where it states that the word in question is the one the Wizards power is tied to, which we all know is" Shazam." The same word stated IMMEDIATELY before the scene we're pointlessly debating over



Originally posted by abhilegend
Amazing how much of an idiot you are lol. It shows just how powerful Wizard was, not that he sent Adam on a journey lmao

We debated like 2 yrs ago. Let the grudge go and start afresh and be civil. Theres no need to let this descend into childish name calling. That is a crutch for those who cant debate. Dont be that guy.

Back on topic, you simply misinterpreted. It happens.

You saw the phrase "as in the beginning there was the word" and immediately locked into an interpretation, one that isnt supported in the scene, before the scene or after the scene. What is supported and explicitly confirmed is the word Shazam calls on the Wizards power. The Wizard tells Shazam to say it, he is then sent back through time with scene saying "as in the beginning there was the word....."And now the last of an ancient wizards power wrapped up in THAT word send Teth Adam hurtling through the multiverse."

This is over.

Originally posted by abhilegend
"Devouring every thread of existence is unquantifiable and unverifiable"

https://i.postimg.cc/52ZwWtmF/image.jpg



Youre leaping into debate without taking the time to process whats going on and why things are being said

Unquantifiable and unverifiable because

1) it happened off panel under unknown circumstances
2) it was with the aid of both the Lords of Chaos and the 7 deadly sins

So not only do we not see how she was achieving this destruction, but we also dont know how much she was responsible for vs her minions. She recruited the Lord of Chaos specifically for their capacity for and dedication to destruction:

https://imgur.com/1LyExan

So as confirmed by Phantom Stranger the Lords of Chaos were an important part of the process.

Im not denying she destroyed most of creation, just saying its circumstances and her contribution are unquantifiable.

Every scene she was in she was bolstered by her minions who consistently lead the charge on everything, from the attack on Superman Prime:

https://imgur.com/4Qs9aZG

the initial attack on the heroes:

https://imgur.com/JmwVr5U

even in the final assault the minions do the lionshare of the work whilst she hangs back and picks off the Wizard:

https://imgur.com/HPjsWkN

https://imgur.com/L65Ek5c

So with her propensity to act through minions, with her stated recruitment of the Lords of Chaos for their destructive capacity, whats unquantifiable is her contribution to the destruction.

Furthermore its not like she destroyed the multiverse in one blast. She went from dimension to dimension wrecking all creation over time:

Thats a universal power. The M'kraan crystal destroys all realities at once. It was responsible for the destruction of Marvels 6th Cosmos.

An exhausted and battle weary Lady Phoenix/Firehair warped the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse at once in Avengers just in April this year. This was done in collaboration with a Starbrand, yet even if we attribute just half of the effort to that Phoenix host, thats still a greater feat than a slow trawl taking out single dimensions at a time.

Unkindness going from dimension to dimension just highlights the limits of her destructive capacity. Doubly so when it was done in collaboration.

Dont leap on the bandwagon because your own line of argument hit a deadend.

The comic gives context for what word its talking about by the scene immediately before it featuring the Wizards word of power Shazam.

The main scene then told you what word it was talking about by stating "And now the last of an ancient wizards power wrapped up in THAT word"

Which is explicit confirmation that when it said "As in the beginning there was the word" it meant Shazam.

Misinterpreting left, right and centre

1) I was demonstrating examples of top tier, multiversal power to contrast it with Unkindness' universal feats of travelling from place of power to place of power destroying one at a time.

2) You cant assert that as nowhere is that stated or conclusively depicted. It is stated clear as day that the Unkindness was travelling from plane to plane targetting pieces of power, not everything and not all at once. Plane to plane:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

https://imgur.com/2wZhQFX


What we see is the the girl (Gold Beetle) disappearing with it being surmised that at that time the Unkindness is destroying her timeline. Later Resurrection Man opens a gate to allow the Unkindness into Fates Tower, which Unkindness then utilises. How youve interpreted that as a demonstration of her destroying everything at once when (as i've just shown) its stated explicitly it was single target after single target i really dont know.

3) It was an alternate future reality so you cant make any assertions about the occupants of any of the dimensions or their power levels in comparison to the DC present. Near 900 centuries had past. For example look at the Quintessence, theyre an entirely different bunch of beings in Future State with unknown levels of power in contrast to what you can quantify about characters in the DC present. Plus again it goes back to the fact that Unkindness doesnt destroy anyone on panel bar the Wizard. The rest is off panel or done by her minions who the Phantom Stranger confirmed were reruited because of their destructive capacity. So Unkindness' solo abilities are an unknown quantity. Her solo contribution an unknown quantity.

Dont patronise me.

Attempt to out debate me, but do so respectfully. We're OG's here, do better.




As a standalone sentence taken completely out of context you'd be forgiven for interpreting as such. However when said sentence is immediately preceded by the Wizard proposing a way for Adam to save the universe by saying one word...."Shazam." theres no support or excuse for your interpretation.

https://imgur.com/5E0Y7Xj

https://imgur.com/IjptH0x




To paraphrase it states it all began with the word (Shazam) and now it ends with that same word. Your interpretation doesn't reconcile the fact that the 2nd part of the sentence ("that word" explains what word is meant in the 1st part of the sentence.

My interpretation is supported by the scene immediately before (the focus on the word "Shazam" to save the universe) and in the main scene we're talking about where its stated that the word in question is one the Wizards power is tied to. Which we all know to be the word Shazam.

Your perspective is tenuous at best and entirely unsupported by the context or art of the comic.

Regardless, all it comes down to is Unkindness has a universal scale of destructive power at best.

Whilst the ultimate coverage of her destruction might have been the entire DC multiverse, she achieved this over time, going place to place trawling through creation. Thats not top tier. Powerful but not the best of the best.

If she was simultaneously destroying multiple planes of reality, or even demonstrated on panel being able to wipe out a single reality casually with the blink of an eye, then she would be certified top tier.

But instead as confirmed it was a gradual dimension to dimension process, with her hovering over and taking time just to destroy Kahndaq

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

and to rub salt in the wounds, her wave of destruction was bolstered by the Lords of Chaos as confirmed by Phantom Stranger who stated they were specifically recruited by Unkindness for their destructive capacity:

https://imgur.com/1LyExan

So just what is Unkindness capable of solo?

It was never shown, so we'll never know. Her power is an unverifiable myth.

Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end.

This is a reasonable take.

Whilst i still believe given the context provided by the comic and the subsequent clarification of what word was being talked about in the 1st sentence ("wrapped up in that word," you logically and objectively recognised that regardless, it would say nothing of power anyway.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah. Judged by the scans I can see and the discussion in this thread, I tend to think the writer used "word" to refer two different things here

It's like, let's say
Country X successfully created an artificial sun and one of the scientists said in an article:
"In the beginning, there was the sun that gave humans warmth(talking about the natural sun).
And now, we created that sun(the artificial one, which is indicated by a different time frame that separated from the previous one) to lead humans into a new age"
It essentially is comparing and drawing parallels of two similar things. The most obvious indication I think is the two different time frames(a "beginning", and a "now"

Though, I personally think it doesn't necessarily transfer to they're comparable in terms of powers. It can be referring the parallels of one presenting the beginning and the other one presenting the end. Absolutely.
I never said it was big bang power.
But it was very obviously referencing the creation event and drawing that comparison of beginning and end and word.
It did however disrupt the Omni verse, which is substantial any way you shake it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you've done is see the phrase "As in the beginning there was the word" and its like your brain shut off after that sentence and youve run off with an interpretation stubbornly clinging on to it ignoring the context given by the comic to explain that sentence



Its a common theme for the comic writers to take inspiration from Bible.

Except the whole thing "In the beginning there was the word".

You know, from Genesis? I'm not even a Christian and I know lol.



As usual, you arrived at the worst possible conclusion. Bravo.







Grudge? I don't begrudge someone as childish as you.



You wish.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Im not denying she destroyed most of creation, just saying its circumstances and her contribution are unquantifiable.

This is the only part of the inane babble that is worth replying. Read the scan again.

https://i.postimg.cc/52ZwWtmF/image.jpg

"Great and terrible Unkindness. A being of pure malevolence which ravaged the all of time and tide, insatiably consuming every thread of existence."

The comic and it's follow up explicitly state that it was unkindness alone which consumed entire existence but our resident village clown thinks otherwise.

When you can read it, get back to me.

Also Phoenix and Starbrand reset timeline of 615 Earths. That's it, not entire multiverse.

https://i.postimg.cc/mcfXvRMz/8913138-4016640865-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/KkQ03MWB/8913139-6349097680-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/Pvx2WqGc/8913140-7735874695-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/YjqnKd43/8913141-2440629262-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png

Originally posted by Juntai
Absolutely.
I never said it was big bang power.
But it was very obviously referencing the creation event and drawing that comparison of beginning and end and word.
It did however disrupt the Omni verse, which is substantial any way you shake it.

It didnt disrupt the omniverse entire. Lets not embellish.

Whats stated was it disrupted the fabric of the omniverse. A speeding boat can be said to be tearing up the ocean for example.

Just meant that the make up of space time was getting disrupted with his journey to the past.

It was a time travel spell.

Originally posted by Juntai
Now that you see all the ways you were wrong about how English works, we can continue here:

Absorbing all of existence > eating a star.

You havent proven me wrong on a single thing. You presented an alternative interpretation to an ambiguous statement. You might be convinced your interpretation is correct but without a supporting explicit statement you cant assert that. So ive taken the high road and said we'll agree to disagre, lets get back to the main topic


Meanwhile i have debunked your claims that Unkindness destroyed all planes of reality at once and highlighted that she doesnt have a single quantifiable solo feat of merit.

Unkindness gradually destroying creation plane by plane is not a multiversal feat. That denotes a universal capacity of destruction with a trail of destruction that eventually covered all of DC.

Furthermore it was done with the aid of her minions.

Any verifiable solo feats beyond killing the Wizard?

Originally posted by abhilegend


Its a common theme for the comic writers to take inspiration from Bible.

Except the whole thing "In the beginning there was the word".

You know, from Genesis? I'm not even a Christian and I know lol.



As usual, you arrived at the worst possible conclusion. Bravo.







Grudge? I don't begrudge someone as childish as you.



You wish.

Victimhood at its finest. Im sorry i hurt your feelings 2 years ago and youre still in recovery.

With regards to your points, ive explained my interpretation and its supported by the narrative and comic art. Agree or disagree its irrelevant. Neither interpretation makes the Wizard any more powerful than what he is, therefore your attempt to indirectly amp the Unkindness is a certified fail.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Phoenix and Starbrand reset timeline of 615 Earths. That's it, not entire multiverse.

https://i.postimg.cc/mcfXvRMz/8913138-4016640865-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/KkQ03MWB/8913139-6349097680-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/Pvx2WqGc/8913140-7735874695-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png https://i.postimg.cc/YjqnKd43/8913141-2440629262-Get-Attachment-Thumbnail.png

Jason Aarons run retconned the multiverse to be composed of 616 dimensions as a nod to the main reality being called 616.

Together Starbrand and Lady Phoenix who was exhausted after a long battle, then warped reality across the entire multiverse. All those realities simultaneously.

Thats a verified feat far greater than the Unkindness going from single dimension to single dimension causing havoc:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

Lady Phoenix is just one single host, that the true Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse. Its a good thing this thread isnt Raven vs the true Phoenix. it'd be a wipeout

So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

She was attacking a single planet, then boom all realms and higher dimensions and the entire Omniverse gone.
Hence what I said earlier, she attacked all of time/space at once.
You’re just reading a linear book.

Originally posted by Juntai
So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door the scarab created?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

Youre gonna have to present your argument in a more comprehensive way if its to be convincing. Why not share screenshots that you believe specifically demonstrate your point, alongside your analysis of whats going on?

Because im looking at what youre saying and im just not seeing how its explicitly depicted in the comic i have in front of me. Im not here as a fanboy, im here to learn more, i only started debating in this thread because things were being asserted that were not being backed up to any sufficient standard. Im open to being convinced, but the onus is on you to present your case better. So instead of getting frustrated, just present it better.

Post the scans and make your case scene by scene

Originally posted by Juntai
So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

She was attacking a single planet, then boom all realms and higher dimensions and the entire Omniverse gone.
Hence what I said earlier, she attacked all of time/space at once.
You’re just reading a linear book.

All the Higher realms werent gone though.

They were ransacked, but they still existed:

https://imgur.com/3qiGrmP

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

They were reduced to rubble, but said dimensions still existed and were able to be visited and walked through. They werent voids. This ties in with the comic stating that Unkindness' consumption was selective and she destroyed the most powerful parts of dimensions:

https://imgur.com/A8uA4qS

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is the only part of the inane babble that is worth replying. Read the scan again.

https://i.postimg.cc/52ZwWtmF/image.jpg

"Great and terrible Unkindness. A being of pure malevolence which ravaged the all of time and tide, insatiably consuming every thread of existence."

The comic and it's follow up explicitly state that it was unkindness alone which consumed entire existence but our resident village clown thinks otherwise.

When you can read it, get back to me.

I missed this before. if the destruction happened off panel and with the confirmed aid of others then whilst the destruction is confirmed:

1) her contribution to it vs her minions remains unquantifiable
2) How easy(or difficult) it was for her and how long she took to achieve the feat remains unquantifiable


As always, you completely miss the point but continue to talk

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All the Higher realms werent gone though.

They were ransacked, but they still existed:

https://imgur.com/3qiGrmP

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

They were reduced to rubble, but said dimensions still existed and were able to be visited and walked through. They werent voids. This ties in with the comic stating that Unkindness' consumption was selective and she destroyed the most powerful parts of dimensions:

https://imgur.com/A8uA4qS

These are not the realms themselves. These are pieces of places they took before Unkindness Raven absorbed every thread of existence.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9RtT20V

Now, Unkindness and her minions were definitely targeting perceived threats as she was gaining power, hitting specific targets, but at a certain point, she just absorbed the omniverse.

See, now I know you knew that, but you still chose to come lie about it.

Originally posted by Juntai


These are not the realms themselves. These are pieces of places they took before Unkindness Raven absorbed every thread of existence.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9RtT20V

Now, Unkindness and her minions were definitely targeting perceived threats as she was gaining power, hitting specific targets, but at a certain point, she just absorbed the omniverse.

See, now I know you knew that, but you still chose to come lie about it.

You gotta make sure you have your facts straight before you start with the laughing emojis and accusations bro because you never know when a counter can make you look very silly.

Me lying? Either youve misinterpreted (Nothing new there) or youre selectively cropping scans to present a false narrative.

Allow me to present the full scans and along with the context that rubbishes this post

Phantom Stranger took the heroes on a tour of numerous dimensions:

"You guys are ok following some strange dude through a bunch of dimensions?"

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

Whilst leading the heroes through the various ransacked but still very much existing dimensions the Phantom Stranger(PS) talks of how Unkindness recruited the Lords of Chaos because of their capacity for destruction.

PS then talks of how the Quintessence and Lords of Order were making a last stand within the Tower of Fate and that he would lead the heroes inside to meet them.

It is once inside said tower that we see salvaged segments of and beings from the various dimensions that the heroes had just been lead through protected within the tower:

https://imgur.com/fwFwrww

https://imgur.com/t76ssXZ

https://imgur.com/SoBFmPd

So you are conclusively wrong here. Either this was a monumental lack of understanding or an attempt at deceit. Im hoping its the former because the latter would be highly disappointing from an OG. We're not kids anymore bro.

So i reiterate, Unkindness did NOT destroy all of time and space at once as per your baseless assertions.

As stated numerous times in the comic.

Here:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

and here

https://imgur.com/2wZhQFX

she went from dimension to dimension causing destruction with the support of her minions who its stated were recruited specifically for their destructive capacity:

https://imgur.com/1LyExan

So whilst the overall scale of damage caused by the end of her destruction spree was multiversal, her inferred (inferred because it all happened off panel) destructive capacity was very much universal. As she took down one dimension at a time.

Furthermore we have zero idea of what a solo Unkindness is capable of because all of her feats (bar offing the Wizard) were accomplished with the help and support of both the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins.

The attack on Superman Prime:

https://imgur.com/jJvrhMW

https://imgur.com/4Qs9aZG

https://imgur.com/c2bgHO4


the initial attack on the heroes:

https://imgur.com/JmwVr5U



the final attack on the heroes:


https://imgur.com/HPjsWkN

https://imgur.com/L65Ek5c

All a work of collaboration. As such her individual power whilst inferred to be great, is completely and utterly unquantifiable and mythological. Yay Raven!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You gotta make sure you have your facts straight before you start with the laughing emojis and accusations bro because you never know when a counter can make you look very silly.



Now ive heard all you have to say, its now safe for my emojis.

boxing

Ooooo. Hes back. Is this gonna be a comeback? Are we finally gonna see some conclusive evidence and feats that actually take place on panel?

I predict not.

Its gonna be more "No! Youre wrong! Listen to me! Forget that there are no feats. My head canon reigns supreme!"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Victimhood at its finest. Im sorry i hurt your feelings 2 years ago and youre still in recovery.





I've disregarded your interpretation because those are stupid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jason Aarons run retconned the multiverse to be composed of 616 dimensions as a nod to the main reality being called 616.

Lolwut? Where did you get that?

No, they reset timeline of 615 Earths. No universes.



You're delusional.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I missed this before. if the destruction happened off panel and with the confirmed aid of others then whilst the destruction is confirmed:

1) her contribution to it vs her minions remains unquantifiable
2) How easy(or difficult) it was for her and how long she took to achieve the feat remains unquantifiable


As always, you completely miss the point but continue to talk
You're simply stupid at this point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Lolwut? Where did you get that?

Mephisto gathered his variants from every universe in the multiverse and there were 615 other Mephistos:

https://imgur.com/MBmYPEi

https://imgur.com/Dg1GusA

Mephisto tasked Doom with leading the Multiversal Masters of Evil in reshaping the timeline of every Earth in the multiversal and said to leave Earth 616 till last:

https://imgur.com/4o297cG

After every other Earth in the multiverse has been altered and as agreed Earth 616 is left as the last one to tackle, it is declared to be the 616th Earth to fall:

https://imgur.com/NREWnJ9

In Aarons 5yr Avengers run, the multiverse was retconned to have 616 universes.

How long this remains in place wo knows, however it is the current state of affairs.




Originally posted by abhilegend
No, they reset timeline of 615 Earths. No universes.

You cannot be this stupid? You did not just embarrass yourself like this?

Everything within a reality is a part of that realities timeline. Any significant change to an event has a ripple effect that can result in an altered timeline.

Thats why time travellers are told to limit their interactions for fear of altering the timeline.

Legion killing Professor Xavier in 616 resulted in the Age of Apocalypse reality.

That Earth based event between one Earth based team of mutants spiralled out 1st effecting the history of the entire universe due to the X-mens intergalactic presence and interactions in the main reality and then nearly ended up destroying the entire multiverse as Jean never became Phoenix in that reality so never repaired the M'kraan crystal.


https://imgur.com/afBqAua

Cyclops deciding not to continue as an X-men resulted in the Here Comes Tomorrow reality

https://imgur.com/0cjeL0T

https://imgur.com/BbKbWnQ

A reality that was so damaged it had to be severed from the multiverse by Jean to protect the rest of reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

Alll of those universal ramifications stemming from Cyclops decision to abandon the X-men. An Earth based decision, resulting in a new reality.

So with such commonly known and documented huge universal changes, from simple Earth based decisions, you really thought that wiping out Earths 1st superheroes who protect the entire planet in its infancy would have no impact beyond Earth, with the intergalactic interactions and cosmic significance Earth has in a universe? Lunacy


You then have the What If series that documents explicitly how alterations to events on Earth can result in entirely new realities with new reality designations.


How did this not come to mind? This is Marvel basics. Why are you coming in here with an arrogant, dismissive attitude when you stumble on elementary stuff? Be humble. Read and learn. Ahead of that, leave it to those who demonstrably know what theyre talking about.


Just to further cement my point, here are the Goddesses of Thunder travelling through the Superflow, the space between universes and noticing its in flux because entire realities are being rewritten by the Multiversal Masters of Evils attacks on each Earths Avengers of the past:

https://imgur.com/XSHZOfP

https://imgur.com/8jZDnH2

They further comment that the Multiversal Masters activities have universal ramifications:

https://imgur.com/4mWEM0k

Again, the writer confirms in a summary that the villains activities have impacted entire universes:

https://imgur.com/ABK8bM2

Again its revealed that the Multiversal Masters of Evils activities affected the entire universe those Earths belonged to and it was Mephistos plan all along to capitalize on these changes by absorbing the energies released:

https://imgur.com/wKNosTr



Originally posted by abhilegend


You're delusional.

And youre a donut.

A bottom rung debater with an arrogance and pride unbefitting of your skill and knowledge.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mephisto gathered his variants from every universe in the multiverse and there were 615 other Mephistos:

https://imgur.com/MBmYPEi

https://imgur.com/Dg1GusA

Mephisto tasked Doom with leading the Multiversal Masters of Evil in reshaping the timeline of every Earth in the multiversal and said to leave Earth 616 till last:

https://imgur.com/4o297cG

After every other Earth in the multiverse has been altered and as agreed Earth 616 is left as the last one to tackle, it is declared to be the 616th Earth to fall:

https://imgur.com/NREWnJ9

In Aarons 5yr Avengers run, the multiverse was retconned to have 616 universes.

How long this remains in place wo knows, however it is the current state of affairs.

This is both hilarious and nonsensical. Aaron has referenced infinite multiverse several times






Read the scans, you absolute goon.

The scan flat out says 615 Earth's historians need to be changed, not universes. This is why I say you're delusional.

Its simply reversing the Domino effect masters of evil started, nothing more.



Again, childish tantrums galore.

This is your retort? You are so rubbish

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is both hilarious and nonsensical. Aaron has referenced infinite multiverse several times

And yet multiple times in his latest Marvel work he has defined the multiverse as being composed of 616 universes. A retcon supercedes whats come before. Engage that brain before you speak.



Originally posted by abhilegend
he scan flat out says 615 Earth's historians need to be changed, not universes. This is why I say you're delusional.

The Earths timeline is a part of the universes timeline. Are you seriously telling me you believe everything in Marvel has its own individual, isolated timeline? Do you really believe that?

Are you really saying that if you travelled back in time to Earths ancient past that the rest of the universe wouldnt also be at that same ancient point in time? According to your wackiness Earth is somehow a part of the 616 universe yet also on its own isolated timeline? Is that actually what youre gonna publicly say?

If that was the case then explain What Ifs. Why does a change in an Earth based decision result in an entirely new divergent universe? This is a well documented phenomena in Marvel. You cant make a large change to history without effecting the universe, hence why the Multiversal Masters activities were stated multiple times to have had universal ramifications and to have resulted in the relevant universes being rewritten:

https://imgur.com/XSHZOfP

https://imgur.com/8jZDnH2

https://imgur.com/4mWEM0k

The Earths were where the altered events took place. Thats why the reference is to the Earths needing to be changed. However as clearly shown within said comic, the activities of the multiversal masters of Evils rewrote the entire universe of said Earths, which is understandable given Earth and its heroes are a significant cosmic player. Take them off the board and then of course its going to create wholesale change in a reality.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its simply reversing the Domino effect masters of evil started, nothing more.


What you seem to be unable to process is that simply altering history and undoing the deaths of the ancient Avengers in every universe whilst that would've returned those realities to how they were originally meant to be, it also would've erased the assembled multiversal Avengers who were the result of those altered histories:

https://imgur.com/UN725FX

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l

So Phoenix and Starbrand had to not only undo the killing of each universes ancient avengers, but somehow manage and alter the resultant changes those adjustments would've created throughout the timeline, to somehow keep the multiversal Avengers in existence despite the events that created them in the 1st place no longer existing within the timeline. A monumental feat of simultaneous time and reality manipulation.


Youve conveniently neglected to quote and respond to all the individual points and evidence that you cant counter or explain away and have just posted some throwaway nonsense thats easily rubbished. Youre a joke of a debater.


Abhi just hush. Youre a traumatised opponent who engages me in debate out of a misguided vendetta youre pursuing by your lonesome Out here putting up nonsense, incoherent, indefensible opposition because you remain mad that I absolutely ate you up 2 years ago

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is the only part of the inane babble that is worth replying. Read the scan again.

https://i.postimg.cc/52ZwWtmF/image.jpg

"Great and terrible Unkindness. A being of pure malevolence which ravaged the all of time and tide, insatiably consuming every thread of existence."

The comic and it's follow up explicitly state that it was unkindness alone which consumed entire existence but our resident village clown thinks otherwise.

When you can read it, get back to me.

Too much for any Phoenix, IMO.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Too much for any Phoenix, IMO.

Shes virtually feat free. Her destruction spree was not only just one dimension at a time (which many cosmics can do) but also happened off panel and with the documented aid of the Lords of Chaos. Phoenix hosts wipe out dimensions casually with a thought. Unkindness never showed that scale of power. Just a long ass interdimensional trawl that eventually lead to her destroying most of DC, but without us ever seeing who she had to oppose in her trawl, as it all happened off panel and was 800 yrs in the future, leaving us not having a clue as to what, or who her opposition might have been that far in the future.

Unverifiable, unquantifiable and hyped to oblivion. blowup

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Shes virtually feat free. Her destruction spree was not only just one dimension at a time (which many cosmics can do) but also happened off panel and with the documented aid of the Lords of Chaos. Phoenix hosts wipe out dimensions casually with a thought. Unkindness never showed that scale of power. Just a long ass interdimensional trawl that eventually lead to her destroying most of DC, but without us ever seeing who she had to oppose in her trawl, as it all happened off panel and was 800 yrs in the future, leaving us not having a clue as to what, or who her opposition might have been that far in the future.

Unverifiable, unquantifiable and hyped to oblivion. blowup

Phoenix is barely universal level, bro.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is your retort? You are so rubbish

This is the level of effort you're worth to.

No, he hasn't.

Let me guess, when Bishop stopped Legion from killing Xavier and stop age of Apocalypse, it was a universal feat?

You're a clown.

Nonsense.

Hey idiot, restoring the original timeline isn't a universal feat because they're simply undoing the original action which caused the divergence.


Nonsense lol. This just in, Bishop is a universal power.

You're monumentally stupid.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is the level of effort you're worth to.

No. Its just the full extent of your debating ability. You are not fit for purpose. Fall back

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he hasn't.

Oh he definitely has and ive demonstrated so in this thread. You not providing any contrary evidence and simply giving a denial is wet paper bag levels of useless. Do better.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Let me guess, when Bishop stopped Legion from killing Xavier and stop age of Apocalypse, it was a universal feat? You're a clown.

Who on Earth said that? Because i certainly didnt. For you to think that again just highlights the narrow limits of your mental faculties.

You presented a ridiculous perspective that the Earth despite being a part of the 616 timeline could have a significant part of its history changed without effecting the wider universe:

Originally posted by abhilegend

No, they reset timeline of 615 Earths. No universes.




I corrected your nonsense by highlighting how the Age of Apocalypse reality was created by an Earth based incident therefore demonstrating my point, that Earth cant be within 616 and yet have its own independent, non-interconnected timeline. Do not put words in my mouth and tell me I'm saying things I did not say. If you have no counter, man up and accept that L. Do not turn to deceit.



Originally posted by abhilegend
Nonsense.

Translation: shit got me stumped. Defaulting to denial.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hey idiot, restoring the original timeline isn't a universal feat because they're simply undoing the original action which caused the divergence.


Nonsense lol. This just in, Bishop is a universal power.

Carry on highlighting your gross ineptitude Abigail.

Can you show me where in Avengers Assembled Omega, Firehair and Starbrand time travelled back to the past in person, had fisticuffs with the Masters of Evil, overpowering them subsequently preventing the alteration of history?

Can you then show me where in Age of Apocalypse Bishop cast his power back across the entire universal timeline, and remotely edited events like an MS Word document?

Can you then show me where in AOA Bishop supplemented said chronal editing with warping reality, to somehow selectively retain elements of the previously altered timeline within the restored timeline, despite the fact that the events that created said elements, were just edited out of history?

Absolute donut LOL

Originally posted by abhilegend
You're monumentally stupid.

No. Just monumentally more intelligent, knowledgeable and witty with it. Hate me biatch!

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Phoenix is barely universal level, bro.

Maybe according to your head canon, but fortunately its the actual comics we refer to for debating purposes mate

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe according to your head canon, but fortunately its the actual comics we refer to for debating purposes mate

Overrated, imo. And i used to be a huge phoenix fan. Primarily rachel.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Overrated, imo. And i used to be a huge phoenix fan. Primarily rachel.

I can guarantee your views are down to misconceptions. Because the Phoenix Force by canon is top tier in Marvel. If you think its barely universal then that's an indication of a gross misunderstanding on your part.

Instead of just popping up with these quips, why not explain and evidence your thinking? I can guarantee it wont hold up to scrutiny

I just haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe according to your head canon, but fortunately its the actual comics we refer to for debating purposes mate but the actual canon feats of Dark Phoenix don't back up your stance, do they?

I understand your position that Dark Phoenix is just a mindset. But if we're asserting that Dark Phoenix is universal+, we're relying on feats from different Phoenix versions - correct?

Originally posted by Smurph
but the actual canon feats of Dark Phoenix don't back up your stance, do they?

I understand your position that Dark Phoenix is just a mindset. But if we're asserting that Dark Phoenix is universal+, we're relying on feats from different Phoenix versions - correct?

Not quite. The difference between the colours is purely state of mind, there arent different abilities or physical states between the colours. Its not like Green Hulk vs Grey Hulk for example where they qualify as distinct beings for debating purposes. Here we're talking of the same character, same abilities, the same experience. So once an ability or level of power has been established for Jean Phoenix, it can be referenced and brought to the table no matter what Phoenix state shes in. The forum rules dictate the most current version of a character be used. Jean was Dark Phoenix in Endsong in 2005.

In Endsong Jean cycled through green, red and white Phoenix states in the span of a few pages for example. Her powers remain the same throughout them, but her propensity alters.

Dark Phoenix is just a reference to a state of mind that a Phoenix host can reach when its fully embracing its destructive urges and loses inhibitions:

https://imgur.com/1mzBdx8

https://imgur.com/FHMLMpY

If the thread maker wanted to handicap Jean to make it more of a debate then he could have said Jean Grey Dark Phoenix as she appeared in Uncanny X-men in the early 80s. Such a restriction wasn't imposed.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I just haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

Theres been plenty referenced in this thread that rubbishes a claim of "barely universal" so that stance just doesnt hold up.

If youre unable to evidence your stance then your stance is built on weak foundations

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not quite. The difference between the colours is purely state of mind, there arent different abilities or physical states between the colours. Its not like Green Hulk vs Grey Hulk for example where they qualify as distinct beings for debating purposes. Here we're talking of the same character, same abilities, the same experience. So once an ability or level of power has been established for Jean Phoenix, it can be referenced and brought to the table no matter what Phoenix state shes in. The forum rules dictate the most current version of a character be used. Jean was Dark Phoenix in Endsong in 2005.

In Endsong Jean cycled through green, red and white Phoenix states in the span of a few pages for example. Her powers remain the same throughout them, but her propensity alters.

Dark Phoenix is just a reference to a state of mind that a Phoenix host can reach when its fully embracing its destructive urges and loses inhibitions:

https://imgur.com/1mzBdx8

https://imgur.com/FHMLMpY

If the thread maker wanted to handicap Jean to make it more of a debate then he could have said Jean Grey Dark Phoenix as she appeared in Uncanny X-men in the early 80s. Such a restriction wasn't imposed. yeah, again, I understand your position - Dark Phoenix is just a mindset, ergo, feats can transfer between Phoenix colours.

But circling back to my actual question - can you point to a universal+ Dark Phoenix feat?

Originally posted by Smurph
yeah, again, I understand your position - Dark Phoenix is just a mindset, ergo, feats can transfer between Phoenix colours.

But circling back to my actual question - can you point to a universal+ Dark Phoenix feat?

I wouldnt need to for the reasons ive explained comprehensively in my last post. Its not a separate, distinct character, so any Jean Phoenix feats could be referenced.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I wouldnt need to for the reasons ive explained comprehensively in my last post. Its not a separate, distinct character, so any Jean Phoenix feats could be referenced. I didn't say you would need to. I just asked if Dark Phoenix has a single universal feat.

But, to be clear, your whole argument relies on what Dark Phoenix could theoretically do. Not something Dark Phoenix has ever actually done on panel.

Originally posted by Smurph
I didn't say you would need to. I just asked if Dark Phoenix has a single universal feat.

But, to be clear, your whole argument relies on what Dark Phoenix could theoretically do. Not something Dark Phoenix has ever actually done on panel.

Jean Phoenix has multiple universal on panel feats. Dark Phoenix isn't a separate being or entity. So that wouldn't be true at all. There's no getting around that point.

You're trying to debate under parameters that the thread maker has not set.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean Phoenix has multiple universal on panel feats. Dark Phoenix isn't a separate being or entity. So that wouldn't be true at all. There's no getting around that point.

You're trying to debate under parameters that the thread maker has not set. Well, the thread maker specifies Dark Phoenix Jean. And I'm just confirming that I haven't missed Dark Phoenix Jean pulling off a universal feat somewhere. So the only case for Dark Phoenix Jean is based on other Phoenix feats - we agree on that, right?

I haven't touched on whether that speculation is reasonable or not. You're getting a bit defensive but this isn't really a debate, I'm just asking.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. Its just the full extent of your debating ability. You are not fit for purpose. Fall back

You're simply not worth the effort. Even master, a clown of highest degree was at least coherent.

Nope, you just cherry picked a few scans as usual.

Again, simply nonsense. Timeline reset doesn't need universal power in marvel, too many examples to count.


Incoherent babbling is all you have. Let me know when Bishop gets universal feats for reversing Age of Apocalypse timeline change.





Random nonsense is random nonsense. They undid the original diversion in time, that's all they did. Just like in heroes reborn, they only destroyed the pandemonium cube to revert 616 universe back to normal which they even referenced here. Which is a homage to Captain Marvel destroying cosmic cube to revert universe to normal after Thanos changed it.

They literally didn't reality warp an entire universe lol.







Absolute nonsense. Read heroes return which is referred as to how they revert timeline to normal, by destroying the original object which reverted the timeline.

You're an illiterate child, why would I hate you?

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, the thread maker specifies Dark Phoenix Jean. And I'm just confirming that I haven't missed Dark Phoenix Jean pulling off a universal feat somewhere. So the only case for Dark Phoenix Jean is based on other Phoenix feats - we agree on that, right?

I haven't touched on whether that speculation is reasonable or not. You're getting a bit defensive but this isn't really a debate, I'm just asking.

Forgive me. Not being defensive. Just questioning and trying to understand your position.

You seem intent on separating the colours as if they're different beings when the thread parameters don't mandate that. So my answer to your question would be no I don't agree. Because a different temperament and propensity doesn't equal a different entity. There are just Jean Phoenix feats.

The thread maker didn't say Dark Phoenix as shown in Uncanny Xmen 135 to 137. He simply said this involves Dark Phoenix which by canon is just a mindset any hosts can reach. Jean most recently was Dark Phoenix in New Xmen in 2004 and Endsong in 2005.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forgive me. Not being defensive. Just questioning and trying to understand your position.

You seem intent on separating the colours as if they're different beings when the thread parameters don't mandate that. So my answer to your question would be no I don't agree. Because a different temperament and propensity doesn't equal a different entity. There are just Jean Phoenix feats.

The thread maker didn't say Dark Phoenix as shown in Uncanny Xmen 135 to 137. He simply said this involves Dark Phoenix which by canon is just a mindset any hosts can reach. Jean most recently was Dark Phoenix in New Xmen in 2004 and Endsong in 2005. Right. And Jean, in that mindset, has never performed a universal feat?

In Endsong the Phoenix Force was a living sentient thing... So... surely all feats are possible in any state of an Avatar who has performed said feats.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You're simply not worth the effort. Even master, a clown of highest degree was at least coherent.

Nope, you just cherry picked a few scans as usual.

Again, simply nonsense. Timeline reset doesn't need universal power in marvel, too many examples to count.


Incoherent babbling is all you have. Let me know when Bishop gets universal feats for reversing Age of Apocalypse timeline change.





Random nonsense is random nonsense. They undid the original diversion in time, that's all they did. Just like in heroes reborn, they only destroyed the pandemonium cube to revert 616 universe back to normal which they even referenced here. Which is a homage to Captain Marvel destroying cosmic cube to revert universe to normal after Thanos changed it.

They literally didn't reality warp an entire universe lol.



Absolute nonsense. Read heroes return which is referred as to how they revert timeline to normal, by destroying the original object which reverted the timeline.

You're an illiterate child, why would I hate you?

Yet another disposable post from someone who is clearly out of their depth

The gist of it is "Nonsense...nonsense..nonsense" to my posts that you couldnt counter. Which was virtually all of them!

So i no longer need to go point for point with you as you remain dumbfounded and handled by my previous works. So instead you'll get a lil summary.

1)Aarons Avengers run established the multiverse is composed of 616 universes. Until you share Marvel publications that have come after April 2023 that disprove this point, then the point stands. Your views to the contrary as ever remain insufficient.

2)I didnt say that altering an event was in itself a universal scale feat, but what i did do was highlight your farcical attempt to diminish Phoenixes feat, by equating the methods she used (remote chronal alteration of the timeline) to what Bishop did, (physically travelling back in time and engaging in low level fisticuffs)

3)Furthermore what you persistently seem unable to grasp is altering an event to reset reality wasnt the extent of Phoenixes feat. She altered history, but then merged aspects of the superseded reality,(the multiversal Avengers and their lives) with the restored reality, thereby creating a modified version of the original reality except with the thousands of multiversal Avengers members now a part of it:

https://imgur.com/P5BpsMq

https://imgur.com/4g7r1nL

You have given zero counter for that 2nd part of the process. All you've made is a weak attempt to write off and diminish the whole feat by likening the 1st part of the process (the event alteration) to what Bishop did despite the vastly different methods employed.

Another L for the display cabinet. Youre on a roll Abigail

Originally posted by Smurph
Right. And Jean, in that mindset, has never performed a universal feat?

Let it go bro. Youre not gonna get anywhere with this.

Its the same character, same abilities, same experience. There is no getting past that. You would have to prove that according to canon, when a Phoenix host goes Dark Phoenix, their abilities change.

Good luck with your research

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
In Endsong the Phoenix Force was a living sentient thing... So... surely all feats are possible in any state of an Avatar who has performed said feats.

Which feats do you see on par with Raven's? GS isn't saying much.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Let it go bro. Youre not gonna get anywhere with this.

Its the same character, same abilities, same experience. There is no getting past that. You would have to prove that according to canon, when a Phoenix host goes Dark Phoenix, their abilities change.

Good luck with your research Awfully evasive for a yes/no question

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Which feats do you see on par with Raven's? GS isn't saying much.

Ive said plenty throughout this thread. Either youre ignoring my points or failing to mentally process their significance. Thats on you.


Can you highlight one single SOLO feat of note that Unkindness did on panel that makes her top tier?

Because apart from taking out the Wizard, i cant seem to identify a damn thing.

Take it away Senor Cage

Originally posted by Smurph
Awfully evasive for a yes/no question

Your intentions are transparent. The onus is on you to demonstrate that within canon, that going Dark Phoenix means a change in a hosts abilities.

Get to work whip

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive said plenty throughout this thread. Either youre ignoring my points or failing to mentally process their significance. Thats on you.


Can you highlight one single SOLO feat of note that Unkindness did on panel that makes her top tier?

Because apart from taking out the Wizard, i cant seem to identify a damn thing.

Take it away Senor Cage

Like you said, we've said plenty. At this point, I doubt you'd change our or yours opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your intentions are transparent. The onus is on you to demonstrate that within canon, that going Dark Phoenix means a change in a hosts abilities.

Get to work whip K, we'll, I've asked five times and you keep avoiding the question. I guess at some point you have to draw the adverse inference.

So Jean, operating under the Dark Phoenix mindset, has no universal feats. In fact, no host with the Dark Phoenix mindset does.

What would you say is the best feat of anybody operating under the Dark Phoenix mindset?

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Like you said, we've said plenty. At this point, I doubt you'd change our or yours opinion.

"We've?!"

You aint said a damn thing. You ride coattails boy!

I debunked all feats and highlighted them as misinterpretation, exaggerations and works of collaboration. Thats why the debate on Unkindness ended days ago and has now switched to a Phoenix focus cos you all got cooked.

I repeat:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive said plenty throughout this thread. Either youre ignoring my points or failing to mentally process their significance. Thats on you.


Can you highlight one single SOLO feat of note that Unkindness did on panel that makes her top tier?

Because apart from taking out the Wizard, i cant seem to identify a damn thing.

Take it away Senor Cage

I'll wait book

Still waiting...

Originally posted by Smurph
K, we'll, I've asked five times and you keep avoiding the question. I guess at some point you have to draw the adverse inference.

So Jean, operating under the Dark Phoenix mindset, has no universal feats. In fact, no host with the Dark Phoenix mindset does.

What would you say is the best feat of anybody operating under the Dark Phoenix mindset?

Ive addressed your point. Just not in the way youre trying to lead me into but thats a YOU problem. Youre nonsensically trying to debate as if the Phoenix colours represent different entities. If they dont represent different entities and instead are just a matter of temperament then there is zero distinction to be made between different states.

If youre making an assertion then the onus is on you to evidence your point.

Please show where in canon it is stated that there is a difference in abilities once a Phoenix host goes Dark Phoenix?

Thats the crux of the matter. Without said proof you have nothing

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Still waiting...


Grow up kid. If you arent going to evidence your assertions then you are not worthy of my time.

Then don't respond. Just want confirmation she's universal at least.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive addressed your point. Just not in the way youre trying to lead me into but thats a YOU problem. Youre nonsensically trying to debate as if the Phoenix colours represent different entities. If they dont represent different entities and instead are just a matter of temperament then there is zero distinction to be made between different states.

If youre making an assertion then the onus is on you to evidence your point.

Please show where in canon it is stated that there is a difference in abilities once a Phoenix host goes Dark Phoenix?

Thats the crux of the matter. Without said proof you have nothing Well it's not just a "matter of temperament". In your words:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Dark Phoenix is just a reference to a state of mind that a Phoenix host can reach when its fully embracing its destructive urges and loses inhibitions:

https://imgur.com/1mzBdx8

https://imgur.com/FHMLMpY


So Dark Phoenix is a state of mind that affects how a Phoenix host uses its power.

Moreover, Dark Phoenix is recognizable, in-universe and out. We can point to the specific last appearances of Dark Phoenix versus other Phoenix colours. The X-Men recognize when Scott has "gone Dark Phoenix". Obviously they see a meaningful difference as between Phoenix colours.

I haven't said that transferring feats between Phoenix colours is illogical or unreasonable. I'm just asking what Dark Phoenix's actual best feat is.

Originally posted by Smurph
Well it's not just a "matter of temperament". In your words:



So Dark Phoenix is a state of mind that affects how a Phoenix host uses its power.

Moreover, Dark Phoenix is recognizable, in-universe and out. We can point to the specific last appearances of Dark Phoenix versus other Phoenix colours. The X-Men recognize when Scott has "gone Dark Phoenix". Obviously they see a meaningful difference as between Phoenix colours.

I haven't said that transferring feats between Phoenix colours is illogical or unreasonable. I'm just asking what Dark Phoenix's actual best feat is.

Dark Phoenix is a state of mind that makes a host lose inhibitions and embrace their destructive urges. So of course theres a recognizable difference in temperament that is acknowledged in continuity. Zero difference in ability though. Beg to differ? Evidence it.

Jean Phoenixes best feats are healing the M'kraan crystal, destroying the Here Comes Tomorrow universe casually with a thought and materializing 616 atom by atom in her palm demonstrating total control of its atomic structure.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dark Phoenix is a state of mind that makes a host lose inhibitions and embrace their destructive urges. So of course theres a recognizable difference in temperament that is acknowledged in continuity. Zero difference in ability though. Beg to differ? Evidence it.

Jean Phoenixes best feats are healing the M'kraan crystal, destroying the Here Comes Tomorrow universe casually with a thought and materializing 616 atom by atom in her palm demonstrating total control of its atomic structure. None of which were Jean while Dark Phoenix.

Look, at least we have common ground insofar as everybody agrees that Dark Phoenix is a recognizable variation (colour/mindset/personality?) of Phoenix. We can clearly distinguish Dark Phoenix, as can the X-Men.

So what's Dark Phoenix Jean's best feat?

Originally posted by Smurph
None of which were Jean while Dark Phoenix.

Look, at least we have common ground insofar as everybody agrees that Dark Phoenix is a recognizable variation (colour/mindset/personality?) of Phoenix. We can clearly distinguish Dark Phoenix, as can the X-Men.

So what's Dark Phoenix Jean's best feat?

Bro. Just no.

Theyre not a separate character and there has never been anything stated on panel regarding any abilities being unique to the Dark Phoenix state. So your strategy will get you nowhere as it cant be evidenced.

I repeat...this is not a Green Hulk vs Grey Hulk situation.

The Phoenix Force is modelled after Kaballah concepts and represents the sefirot Tiphereth which is a unifying emanation of duality. Hence the different faces of the same being.

Without canon proof that being Dark Phoenix equates to different abilities, your strategy is a futile exercise. Bring evidence to the table or this is pretty much done

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Bro. Just no.

Theyre not a separate character and there has never been anything stated on panel regarding any abilities being unique to the Dark Phoenix state. So your strategy will get you nowhere as it cant be evidenced.

I repeat...this is not a Green Hulk vs Grey Hulk situation.

The Phoenix Force is modelled after Kaballah concepts and represents the sefirot Tiphereth which is a unifying emanation of duality. Hence the different faces of the same being.

Without canon proof that being Dark Phoenix equates to different abilities, your strategy is a futile exercise. Bring evidence to the table or this is pretty much done You keep avoiding the question. It's really simple.

Dark Phoenix is a recognizable state, as you say. So... what's Jean's best feat while in that state?

Originally posted by Smurph
You keep avoiding the question. It's really simple.

Dark Phoenix is a recognizable state, as you say. So... what's Jean's best feat while in that state?

Dark Phoenix is a recognizable face of the same character. Not a distinct or separate entity. Ive listed Jean Phoenixes best feats. Do with that info what you will.

Until such times as you provide evidence that the Dark Phoenix face of a Phoenix host has distinct and unique abilities your strategy remains a non starter.

Tick tock.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dark Phoenix is a recognizable face of the same character. Not a distinct or separate entity. Ive listed Jean Phoenixes best feats. Do with that info what you will.

Until such times as you provide evidence that the Dark Phoenix face of a Phoenix host has distinct and unique abilities your strategy remains a non starter.

Tick tock.

https://i.imgur.com/zahhdq4.gif

Originally posted by Senor Cage
https://i.imgur.com/zahhdq4.gif

Well i didnt wanna be so rude, but yh basically

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
In Endsong the Phoenix Force was a living sentient thing... So... surely all feats are possible in any state of an Avatar who has performed said feats.

Precisely. It speaks volumes when all they have left is pedantry

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yet another disposable post from someone who is clearly out of their depth

The gist of it is "Nonsense...nonsense..nonsense" to my posts that you couldnt counter. Which was virtually all of them!

So i no longer need to go point for point with you as you remain dumbfounded and handled by my previous works. So instead you'll get a lil summary.





The very first masters of evil arc had deathloks travel a thousand universes to warn Starbrand.

https://i.postimg.cc/YSmh9Nct/image.jpg

It also mentioned a million firmaments lol but that's for later.

How did Phoenix/Starbrand restore 616 timeline from Heroes Reborn universe which is referred here?

You guess it, physically. That's what happened here too.



That's not what happened lol. She merely reversed the timeline and spared the avengers who were anyway outside the timelines as they were at the God Quarry. There is no mention of any modified reality.





You're a glutton for punishment.

Originally posted by abhilegend




The very first masters of evil arc had deathloks travel a thousand universes to warn Starbrand.

https://i.postimg.cc/YSmh9Nct/image.jpg

This was your trump card?! You spent all yesterday scouring that story arc for this?!!

Do you know what purple prose is? Probably not because you're demonstrably mentally defunct.

Heres a clue.....its that Deathloks entire flowery speech LOL.

Hes in awe of someone who his group feels is destined to play a pivotal role in being a saviour of reality and he's therefore talking ornately and poetically to revere her and demonstrate respect. Not literally.

"We have crossed a thousand universes FOLLOWING A STAR" Is Starbrand a literal star or is she a human host to a planetary defence system? If you accept that she isnt literally a star then why are you selectively accepting the 1st part of the sentence ("We have crossed a thousand universes" as a statement of fact and not the latter half of the same sentence?

Lets look at the rest of his speech:

"Holy Starchilde. The great multiversal polaris, whose sunlight shines on all corners of creation."

Purple prose fool LMAO

Meanwhile its indicated multiple times in the story arc that there are 615 diverged realities from 616:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mephisto gathered his variants from every universe in the multiverse and there were 615 other Mephistos:

https://imgur.com/MBmYPEi

https://imgur.com/Dg1GusA

Mephisto tasked Doom with leading the Multiversal Masters of Evil in reshaping the timeline of every Earth in the multiversal and said to leave Earth 616 till last:

https://imgur.com/4o297cG

After every other Earth in the multiverse has been altered and as agreed Earth 616 is left as the last one to tackle, it is declared to be the 616th Earth to fall:

https://imgur.com/NREWnJ9

In Aarons 5yr Avengers run, the multiverse was retconned to have 616 universes.

How long this remains in place wo knows, however it is the current state of affairs.









Can you please demonstrate support for this thousand universes in the multiverse claptrap anywhere else within this story arc? Not any other number, specifically 1000 so you can evidence that the Deathlok was giving a numerical fact. If you cant then this point is a non-starter. Back to the drawing board Abigail.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It also mentioned a million firmaments lol but that's for later.

In that case i'll wait till you officially bring this point to the table and dispose of it at that point in time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How did Phoenix/Starbrand restore 616 timeline from Heroes Reborn universe which is referred here?

You guess it, physically. That's what happened here too.

WRONG!

The Heroes Reborn reality was created not from a changed event resulting in a divergent reality, but instead by a cosmic cube like artefact called the Hellahedron. It created an overlay across existing reality as opposed to a fully fledged new universe. Such overlays like those created by cosmic cubes and similar to what House of M was are comparatively fragile to a proper reality and therefore at risk of cracking:

https://imgur.com/9RhLyd0

https://imgur.com/NGUunFi

Phoenix and Starbrand therefore had to counter the Hellahedron to reverse its reality overlay:

https://imgur.com/pqHrAWS

They thus restored reality.

https://imgur.com/sv6pHnc

Therefore in Avengers Assemble Omega when Starbrand refers to having reset a reality before in Heroes Return, that is not evidence that the reality reset they perform later in the issue was achieved in the same way. We know conclusively they werent as the Heroes Reborn was a reality overlay generated by the Helladron, whilst the Muliversal Masters of Evil actually caused a divergent reality that required an event change to reverse.


So entirely different method of creating a reality and an entirely different way of restoring reality. The only commonality between the two is the restoration of the original reality.

Furthermore lets address your attempt to diminish the reality restoration by equating it to what Bishop did.

Heres how Bishop restored reality:

https://imgur.com/ehfmRXr

https://imgur.com/Vry4u1t

He travelled back in time and engaged in physical, up close and personal fisticuffs to change an event.

Heres how Phoenix and Starbrand altered events:

https://imgur.com/Oi2C7ZA

Manipulation of the timeline. Remotely editing events like an MS Word Doc.

They are not the same. Have some integrity you joke.



Originally posted by abhilegend
That's not what happened lol. She merely reversed the timeline and spared the avengers who were anyway outside the timelines as they were at the God Quarry. There is no mention of any modified reality.

Wrong again lol.

Its explicitly highlighted within the issue that restoring reality would mean the Multiversal Avengers would cease to exist in their present forms:

https://imgur.com/cCgKSdd

This scene highlights the dilemma faced by the heroes. They need to do right by restoring reality, but they also dont want who they are, these altered versions to be erased, because whilst they recognise who they are should never have existed, the fact remains they now do exist.

Hearing this conversation, Phoenix walks away to resolve the situation.

Phoenix and Starbrand then not only reverse the tamperings of the Masters of Evil to restore reality to how it should have been, but they go a step further and override realities natural response to this alteration (i.e the automatic erasure of the heroes - the response highlighted in the comic) and merge the altered versions of these heroes into the restored reality. Effectively resulting in a restored but modified reality as evidenced by the continued existence of the thousands of multiversal Avengers.

You disingenuously try to assert that the Phoenix did nothing special and that the heroes were automatically saved just by being in the God Quarry. But that is a baseless line of argument because:

1) Whilst they might have been in the God Quarry at that point in time, altering events would mean that they never set foot there in the 1st place LOL.

2) Furthermore its explicitly stated that altering events would make them cease to exist. Something they wouldnt be shown to be so worried about if all they had to do was stay in the God Quarry.

3) By your wacky disingenuous assertion/lie they would get erased as soon as they stepped out of the God Quarry as reality would correct itself yet whats their 1st mission after the reset? A reconnaissance mission back into reality!! LOL

https://imgur.com/P5BpsMq

4) If all they had to do to stay existing was stay in the God Quarry, then what was the whole lotta trouble Tony stated Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare the heroes after they reset reality?

https://imgur.com/4g7r1nL

WHAT WAS IT? Just leaving them in the God Quarry?

Absolute nincompoop LOL

Have you no integrity? The lies you spew in an effort not to accept yet another loss to me.



Originally posted by abhilegend


You're a glutton for punishment.

Im feeling second-hand embarrassment for you. You actually thought you did something here lol

Wrong biatch!

Stay racking those L's

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This was your trump card?! You spent all yesterday scouring that story arc for this?!!

Do you know what purple prose is? Probably not because you're demonstrably mentally defunct.

Heres a clue.....its that Deathloks entire flowery speech LOL.

Hes in awe of someone who his group feels is destined to play a pivotal role in being a saviour of reality and he's therefore talking ornately and poetically to revere her and demonstrate respect. Not literally.

"We have crossed a thousand universes FOLLOWING A STAR" Is Starbrand a literal star or is she a human host to a planetary defence system? If you accept that she isnt literally a star then why are you selectively accepting the 1st part of the sentence ("We have crossed a thousand universes" as a statement of fact and not the latter half of the same sentence?

Lets look at the rest of his speech:

"Holy Starchilde. The great multiversal polaris, whose sunlight shines on all corners of creation."

Purple prose fool LMAO

Meanwhile its indicated multiple times in the story arc that there are 615 diverged realities from 616:



As usual, you just double down on your idiocy. Here's two more from Avengers Forever.

https://i.postimg.cc/2qDTgm7j/image.jpg

"Multiverse of infinite possibilities"
https://i.postimg.cc/pp3sYK9F/image.jpg

"All Earths. All infinity".

You're just stupid now.

Idiot. At this point, that's the only thing that comes to mind.
Yeah, right. They just referenced it for shits and giggles.

The process was the same lol, as referred by Starbrand herself.

Bishop is just an example, you idiot. There have been numerous such alternate timeline resets in marvel.






It was already shown that characters outside the timeline were unaffected as Doom saved Doom-Thing earlier by plucking him out of timeline.

https://i.postimg.cc/fJ0Rrhbr/image.jpg

So no, they didn't need saving lol.

Nope lol.

You're an absolute idiot, just full of air in that head. This is embarrassing. Read the stuff and come back. This is simply waste of time at this rate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dark Phoenix is a recognizable face of the same character. Not a distinct or separate entity. Ive listed Jean Phoenixes best feats. Do with that info what you will.

Until such times as you provide evidence that the Dark Phoenix face of a Phoenix host has distinct and unique abilities your strategy remains a non starter.

Tick tock. lol, so to recap:

I asked whether Dark Phoenix has a single universal feat. You dodged the question so I asked again, 5 times. You refused to answer.

I said, ok, so what's the best feat anybody has done while Dark Phoenix? Not just Jean, but any host. Again, you repeatedly dodged and refused to answer. You eventually offered feats from a different Phoenix colour.

Now you incorrectly assert that it's my burden to prove that Dark Phoenix can't feat share with other Phoenix colours. Of course I can't prove a negative, but that's irrelevant because it's your case to make. You're welcome to continue spouting theories about what Dark Phoenix can do but at this point it's just hot air and theories.

If you want to prove that any Phoenix personality is a multiversal power, go ahead and prove it. I haven't even taken a position on that question - maybe you're right! - I'm just underlining that, for pages, you've been bullshitting around the weak point in your argument.

You've said:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Top Phoenix hosts wipe out realities literally in the blink of an eye and have warped reality on a multiversal scale and
Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Dark Phoenix is just a reference to a state of mind that a Phoenix host can reach when its fully embracing its destructive urges and loses inhibitions:

https://imgur.com/1mzBdx8

https://imgur.com/FHMLMpY

and, repeatedly, that there's no difference in ability as between Phoenix colours.

Cool. So, if all of that is true, Dark Phoenix is a Phoenix host fully embracing destruction and wielding the power to wipe out realitieS in the blink of an eye.

So... what's the best feat of any host while Dark Phoenix?

Again? Youre entertaining if nothing else.

Originally posted by abhilegend


As usual, you just double down on your idiocy. Here's two more from Avengers Forever.

https://i.postimg.cc/2qDTgm7j/image.jpg

"Multiverse of infinite possibilities"
https://i.postimg.cc/pp3sYK9F/image.jpg

"All Earths. All infinity".

You're just stupid now.


Can you please show where in those scans it refers to a number of universes?

Not only does it not refer to a number of universes, not only does it not refer to or validate your 1000 universes assertion, but it also doesn't refer to universes at all! Its talking about possibilities you clown.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Idiot. At this point, that's the only thing that comes to mind.


As per usual, when you cannot counter, you dismiss. So I will quote myself Concede on the point or put up counter it if at all within your capability (Newsflash - Its not)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Can you please demonstrate support for this thousand universes in the multiverse claptrap anywhere else within this story arc? Not any other number, specifically 1000 so you can evidence that the Deathlok was giving a numerical fact. If you cant then this point is a non-starter. Back to the drawing board Abigail.





So youre admitting you were wrong and there are no other references to support your previous 1000 universes assertion and are now abandoning that previous assertion for your new wacky interpretation regarding infinite possibilities?


Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, right. They just referenced it for shits and giggles.

The process was the same lol, as referred by Starbrand herself.

Nope. She referenced it to highlight to this new Phoenix that her and a Phoenix had joined forces to restore a reality previously. Nowhere on panel did it state that the method she and this new Phoenix would use would be the same as her previous experience.

We know conclusively it wasnt the same method as the previous occasion was a reality overlay that was overturned by countering the Helladron, this occassion it was an actual diverged timeline as a result of a change in history necessitating a change in events. artefact countering vs event alteration.


Another L

Originally posted by abhilegend
Bishop is just an example, you idiot. There have been numerous such alternate timeline resets in marvel.

And yet the point remains that there are levels. Physical fisticuffs to directly intervene in an event vs remote timeline alteration are not the same.



Originally posted by abhilegend
It was already shown that characters outside the timeline were unaffected as Doom saved Doom-Thing earlier by plucking him out of timeline.

https://i.postimg.cc/fJ0Rrhbr/image.jpg

So no, they didn't need saving lol.

Nope lol.

Youve shot yourself in the foot. This validates the majority of my argument:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


You disingenuously try to assert that the Phoenix did nothing special and that the heroes were automatically saved just by being in the God Quarry. But that is a baseless line of argument because:

1) Whilst they might have been in the God Quarry at that point in time, altering events would mean that they never set foot there in the 1st place LOL.

2) Furthermore its explicitly stated that altering events would make them cease to exist. Something they wouldnt be shown to be so worried about if all they had to do was stay in the God Quarry.

3) By your wacky disingenuous assertion/lie they would get erased as soon as they stepped out of the God Quarry as reality would correct itself yet whats their 1st mission after the reset? A reconnaissance mission back into reality!! LOL

https://imgur.com/P5BpsMq

4) If all they had to do to stay existing was stay in the God Quarry, then what was the whole lotta trouble Tony stated Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare the heroes after they reset reality?

https://imgur.com/4g7r1nL

WHAT WAS IT? Just leaving them in the God Quarry?



The new evidence youve brought to the table counters point 1 alone. Staying outside of the timeline stops them from being erased. But returning to reality would be a death sentence to the Multiversal Avengers. It would result in instant erasure.

Reconcile the rest.

What was the whole lotta trouble Tony stated Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare the heroes after they reset reality? Leaving them in the Quarry?

Why was it safe for them to return to reality without fear of erasure(As they immediately did for their 1st mission) only after Phoenix and Starbrands efforts? Your own scan as well as my own confirms that simply reversing events would make reality a death trap for them from that point going forward. Reconcile that point with your assertion that Phoenix and Starbrand did nothing specific to help the heroes and instead just left them in the God Quarry.

Reconcile the points


Originally posted by abhilegend
You're an absolute idiot, just full of air in that head. This is embarrassing. Read the stuff and come back. This is simply waste of time at this rate.

You tried and failed yet again. A pattern you are forever locked into. That must be soul destroying?

Originally posted by Smurph
lol, so to recap:

I asked whether Dark Phoenix has a single universal feat. You dodged the question so I asked again, 5 times. You refused to answer.

I said, ok, so what's the best feat anybody has done while Dark Phoenix? Not just Jean, but any host. Again, you repeatedly dodged and refused to answer. You eventually offered feats from a different Phoenix colour.

Now you incorrectly assert that it's my burden to prove that Dark Phoenix can't feat share with other Phoenix colours. Of course I can't prove a negative, but that's irrelevant because it's your case to make. You're welcome to continue spouting theories about what Dark Phoenix can do but at this point it's just hot air and theories.

If you want to prove that any Phoenix personality is a multiversal power, go ahead and prove it. I haven't even taken a position on that question - maybe you're right! - I'm just underlining that, for pages, you've been bullshitting around the weak point in your argument.

What absolute nonsense.

What you did was try and indirectly worm in a case for there being different abilities for Dark Phoenix

I stated that Dark Phoenix was simply a state that a host can reach whereby they have succumbed to the corruptive elements of the power and lost inhibitions.

You then asked what feats have been performed by Jean as Dark Phoenix. A question about as meaningful as asking What feats has Thor done on a Wednesday vs a Sunday.

With your agenda being quite transparent i highlighted to you that we are not dealing with a Green Hulk vs Grey Hulk situation here, whereby its canon that said states of Banner have not only entirely different personalities, but also different abilities.

I have then continued to reiterate that point whilst you have continued your fruitless attempts to push me into saying what you want me to say.

It then got to the point where I just said do you know what, provide evidence that Dark Phoenix's abilities are unique to that state. That isnt proving a negative by any definition. Youre the one making baseless assertions however passively and indirectly that might be