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Can those who wrote the laws in Vertigo defeat those who govern everything imaginable and unimaginable in modern DC combined into one and the most powerful 5th-dimensional imp?

Bonus 1: if Lucy and Michael win, pit them against FP Perpetua and Doctor Manhattan.

Bonus 2: if Ultra-Monitor and Mxy win, pit Lucy and Michael against COIE Anti-Monitor and FP Barbatos.

Lucifer & Michael, imo.

...Assuming peak/Carey versions.

Lucifer and Michael wins all rounds.

Originally posted by deft
Lucifer and Michael wins all rounds.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer & Michael, imo.

...Assuming peak/Carey versions.

Reasoning? Personally I think Ultra-Monitor and Mxy have a solid chance of winning this.

Because under Carey, Michael and Lucifer embodied the power and will of the Presence himself in a very literal sense(Michael WAS his power; Lucifer WAS his will.)

There aren't many character's I'd put above them, tbh. /shrug

WTF? Mxy already killed and remade all of DC (which logically would include Lucifer/Michael/Presence). T2 stomps.

Originally posted by zopzop
WTF? Mxy already killed and remade all of DC (which logically would include Lucifer/Michael/Presence). T2 stomps.

that's a big assumption to make

there's no evidence of this claim whatsoever

Originally posted by MrMind
that's a big assumption to make

there's no evidence of this claim whatsoever
Not really :
https://i.postimg.cc/R659Sm9L/4804830-6008067545-r3-OTU.jpg
Mxy stomps.

that just mean the multiverse

presence/lucifer/michael was not mentioned anywhere

you cant just assume he destroyed every single character in dc

Originally posted by Galan007
Because under Carey, Michael and Lucifer embodied the power and will of the Presence himself in a very literal sense(Michael WAS his power; Lucifer WAS his will.)

There aren't many character's I'd put above them, tbh. /shrug

Here's my argument for Mxy and Ultra-Monitor winning this:

- Michael embodies the literal power of The Presence and Lucifer embodies the literal will of The Presence (Under Carey's depictions of the characters). How this manifests functionally is that while Michael possesses more or less infinite raw power that can be shaped into anything and applied combatively, Michael can't actually shape the power himself. Similarly, Lucifer has a more or less infinite ability to shape and manipulate energy, but can't actually summon this power himself (hence why he needs to manipulate Michael's energies to create his own Multiverse).

- Based on the above, I find Michael to be very similar to the Brothers Three Individually: i.e. each brother is an embodiment of creation that "governs everything imaginable and unimaginable" and are responsible for the entire cycle of life in the DC Multiverse, from the lowest microbe to the highest beings in the cosmos, but they can't actually shape their respective domains (as per Perpetua). Lucifer is the opposite in a sense since he has unlimited shaping powers but no inherent "power of creation" like the Brothers Three/Michael do.

- The power the Brothers Three possess individually while in their own dimension (i.e. in their true forms) is absolutely staggering, and seemingly every bit as Godlike/omnipotent as Lucifer and Michael in certain respects. Mxy claims the Brothers Three (other than Perpetua) are the most powerful beings in existence and the only beings who could exist in the Sixth Dimension (Mxy couldn't even perceive the happenings of the Sixth Dimension, much less access it until the Source Wall broke, and he is literally the most powerful embodiment of the concept of imagination). World Forger was able to create his own version of the DC Multiverse with its own New Gods and Hypertime, writing the cosmic rules for every being in said Multiverse. WF also created a dragon (Barbatos) that likely consumed countless infinities of universes, holding him as a tiny pet on his shoulder. AM and Overmonitor have plenty of Multiversal ++ feats on their own and are on par with the World Forger.

- Ultra-Monitor is pretty much what Michael and Lucifer would become if they potara fused. Not only are the Brothers Three combining the limitless energies of their respective domains (which together govern everything imaginable and unimaginable in the DC Multiverse and its higher dimensions), but they are being amped by a shard of the totality which allows them to shape their energies as well. This boost allows them to fight with an incarnation of Perpetua who was VASTLY more powerful than she was upon her awakening, during which she destroyed the entire source wall (despite the best efforts of the Justice League and Omega Titans to prevent it) and unmade various New Gods, sending massive tremors across every universe and dimension in DC. I would argue destroying the Source Wall is every bit as impressive as pretty much any feat Lucifer or Michael has, and Ultra-Monitor would godstomp that version of Perpetua.

- Mxy is icing on the cake in the sense that he possesses casually Multiversal ++ power and is able to create and manipulate energy in, well, any way he can imagine. Even just recently Mxy was going to "unmake all of existence" including Hypertime, which is arguably an infinity of Multiverses (and at the very least is a casually Multiversal feat). Then there's WF.

Ultimately, I don't see a way to effectively distinguish between the infinities that Lucifer, Michael, Mxy and Ultra-Monitor represent, and as a result I would go with the more versatile duo in the more impressive/vast cosmology (As I don't think you can reconcile Vertigo with modern DC cosmology, it's likely best to consider them separate).

Originally posted by Galan007
(Michael WAS his power; Lucifer WAS his will.)
"Will" is metaphorical. He had God's ability to give form to things.

But there shouldn't be anything in creation he can't reshape.

assnerd is in the camp of thinking vertigo cosmology and dc are completely seperate, this conversation wont go anywhere

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Reasoning? Personally I think Ultra-Monitor and Mxy have a solid chance of winning this.

I highly doubt that

https://i.postimg.cc/m1Gc6L2G/2699449-firstmatter.jpg

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I highly doubt that

https://i.postimg.cc/m1Gc6L2G/2699449-firstmatter.jpg

The World Forger was able to manifest countless infinities of universes and higher dimensions into existence, and create the laws/rules for said realities.

The presence, the source, the overvoid are one and the same

This was confirmed by Morrison and Dematteis

Originally posted by Astner
The Presence is the Source.

https://i.ibb.co/Fsz2txH/7422998-sourcepresence2.png

Lucifer's ability to shape and Michael's ability to create is equal to that of the Presence. Unlimited in scope and inexhaustble in nature, and out of nothing.

In contrast, Perpetua and her children have to channel Crisis Energy and exhaust their powers to create and destroy universes.

Originally posted by Astner
The Presence is the Source.

https://i.ibb.co/Fsz2txH/7422998-sourcepresence2.png

Lucifer's ability to shape and Michael's ability to create is equal to that of the Presence. Unlimited in scope and inexhaustble in nature, and out of nothing. Pretty much how I see it.

Lucifer possesses the same will as The Presence/God:
https://ibb.co/mDYmqL1

As such, Lucifer's ability to shape energy and whatnot to his whim is as unbounded as it gets in the world of comics. We saw a glimpse of that when he tanked the sum total of Michael's Demiurgic power(ie. the literal power of God) detonating in his face, then proceeded to casually warp it into a creation of his own... even creating concepts like time in the process.

In short, there is no attack that Mxy or Ultra-Monitor can deliver that would be beyond Lucifer's ability to manipulate. Imo.

The brothers win.

I always view having great power to kill doesn't mean you are unkillable. Some equate the two together. Think of gun slingers. Gun slingers are able to kill well but are also susceptible to being killed.

It's possible that abstract beings share that relationship to a degree (they can be erased as well as erase others). So it basically can be a quick draw.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pretty much how I see it.

Lucifer possesses the same will as The Presence/God:
https://ibb.co/mDYmqL1

As such, Lucifer's ability to shape energy and whatnot to his whim is as unbounded as it gets in the world of comics. We saw a glimpse of that when he tanked the sum total of Michael's Demiurgic power(ie. the literal power of God) detonating in his face, then proceeded to casually warp it into a creation of his own... even creating concepts like time in the process.

In short, there is no attack that Mxy or Ultra-Monitor can deliver that would be beyond Lucifer's ability to manipulate. Imo.

I wonder how Mxy's toon force would do against Lucifer?

Honestly, Lucifer doesn't have good gauge of power in his books. You can say what he tanked against michael but they have an intertwined power. There's also that fact that his powers doesn't work outside of the main multiverse/universe that he is from. Still he could beat Mxy with enough trickery, he's smarter and can talk his way out of most issues.

The way i see it...

Perpetua and Dr. Manhattan mirror Michael and Lucifer

The two creation stories dont fit to well with each other but they mirror each other.
They should be about even imo

The Silver City and Hell(and therfore Michael and Lucifer) being positioned within the God Sphere doesn't mean their powers are limited/confined to that actuality, anymore than The Presence presenting his power through the guise of a Scottish Terrier in the mainstream multiverse caps him to 3D power.

I do not think the literal power and will of The Presence are capped to the local multiverse.

The problem is DC (and Marvel too) screwed itself with too many 'omnipotents'. Every other week it seems there's a new being responsible for creating/destroying the multiverse.

@Xsupremexskillz
I don't blame you. The writers themselves don't know at this point. LOL.

Lucifer adapts his perception to the Overvoid, and witnesses Creations rising and falling, but all the Creations take up, essentially, none of the Overvoid

https://i.ibb.co/ctjSqDB/Overvoid-Creations1.png
https://i.ibb.co/VvLb0DS/Overvoid-Creations2.png
https://i.ibb.co/W5hHBh0/RCO006-1468876805.jpg

with the likes of Lucifer and Michael, Silver City is merely like a hotel or a resort for them, they come and go as they please, that's why Lucifer and Presence could sit by the edge of terrace and watching creations enjoy their brief efflorescences, drinking tea
https://i.ibb.co/fnwBxjX/ZK9y4p-Pwl-Mnqlx-EYpc-Pkqf5j-Nq98-CQOZH0m-Vy5-Mtyqe-Ud-ED-t-REi-Yfg-NHBXd-H1-Fxe5ig-CKes-UPf-s1600.jpg

Lucifer is capable of moving in, and comprehending the nature of the boundless void which is beyond all definitions of space and time
https://i.ibb.co/g70ZdQZ/6914044-8788905600-53819.jpg