Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Peak Perpetua vs Cosmic Armor Superman

Perpetua stomps

superman, and i don't think it's very close.... /shrug

CAS Wins

Why does CAS stomp so hard?

Superman wins

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why does CAS stomp so hard?
Because it is powered by the story/idea of Superman as most fundamental and essential force in entire DC omniverse.
It has been confirmed by not only Final crisis but many story.

What feats does CAS have?? This I got to see.

Originally posted by leonidas
superman, and i don't think it's very close.... /shrug

There are a select few characters in mainstream DC who could possibly overcome the fundamental concept/story/essence of Superman made manifest in the form of Thought-Robot... and Perpetua isn't one of them, imo.

This is sort of backed by the fact that Dr. Manhattan(who was heavily indicated to be more powerful than Mxy, and a peer of Perpetua) believed that it was fully possible for Superman to actually kill him -- the multiverse's greatest antibody, and all that. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
There are a select few characters in mainstream DC who could possibly overcome the fundamental concept/story/essence of Superman made manifest in the form of Thought-Robot... and Perpetua isn't one of them, imo.

This is sort of backed by the fact that Dr. Manhattan(who was heavily indicated to be more powerful than Mxy, and a peer of Perpetua) believed that it was fully possible for Superman to actually kill him -- the multiverse's greatest antibody, and all that. /shrug

Mandrakk is a direct agent of the Overvoid and specifically its first son . He's the entropic hyper-story. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the most powerful of all its agents in the entire Omniverse.

Perpetua/Dr. Manhattan are agents of story . Mandrakk, by definition, is the devourer of both. And the only story that can match him is the one that can become as powerful as the threat -- that of Superman, in its pure thought essence, through the Thought Robot. Mandrakk created the only thing powerful enough to defeat himself.

That's because Mandrakk and Thought Robot are not about feats, they're ideas. One is the entropy of story, the other is the ultimate protector in its purest sense given form.

Perpetua and Dr. Manhattan are yin and yang. They're two types of story engines-- the ones based on Crisis energy vs Anti-Crisis energy. Present vs Continuity. Reboots v Legacy.

https://i.ibb.co/ryw0YKQ/6JC10as.jpg

Mandrakk is an eater of the very concept of story. The 'flavour' is irrelevant.

It's like asking if Ultra Booberman that I just drew could beat your Ultra Asserman that you just drew.

But then you put both of those drawings through the paper shredder and it doesn't matter whether it's boobs or ass.

CA.

The Presence and the Overvoid are two separate entities.

Mandrakk eating stories doesn't make him beyond the Source, because the Source is the blank page, 'God', who sent Mandrakk from outside story to investigate the story inside of it. He was corrupted and turned into the entropy of the very concept of story -- but not before he created the Thought Robot -- the most powerful idea in creation that is capable of becoming as powerful as he needs to be to defeat anybody. The ultimate defender. Mandrakk and the Thought Robot/Superman are the ultimate concepts of the Overvoid. The ultimate duality of the very concept of story and not story.

https://i.ibb.co/cySQ76W/morrison.png

Perpetua, like Manhattan, are just mechanism through which story is developed. With negative energy or with positive energy . By characters believing in good. By characters believing in bad. By characters being selfish. By characters being selfless. But all of those mechanisms -- all of those ways to tell the story, are still ultimately intrinsic to the concept of story itself -- of which Mandrakk came outside from, in contact with, and became its ultimate hyper-devourer. Perpetua using the Final Crisis events with Darkseid/Mandrakk for her own purpose doesn't negate any of this.

Originally posted by LordGod
The Presence and the Overvoid are two separate entities.



As are Perpetua and The Presence.


That doesn't make The Presence retconned either.


John Ostrander already went into this sort of cosmology in his run on Spectre, when Jim Corrigan went around to different representations of cosmology like Deadman, and Zeus, and ranted all the creation myths couldn't possibly be true at the same time.

And he got laughed at for using human logic on cosmic scales. The message was that every single god and story of creation can in fact all have happened. Even if seemingly conflicting each other.

Originally posted by LordGod
The Presence and the Overvoid are two separate entities.

no they are one and the same

Mandrakk is supposedly "eater of stories" conceptually, but even he has limits. Sometimes titles don't mean much when it comes to actual showings. In regards to Mandrakk, the very thing he is supposedly above of can still affect him comprehensively.

Morrison: Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it! "

https://imgur.com/a/wgbUKex

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/be/8e/a2be8e010ea2dffb1da52428e86437c2.png

This boils down to whether or not you think Snyder has done enough to spit on Morrison's concepts yet. He's certainly tried but I don't think he understands the concepts enough to drive the final nail in the coffin. He's tackling a literal deus ex machina with just more raw power and taking bits and pieces from what he understands to attempt it. He's already used meta and imagination to put it 2 dimensions higher as well. The downfalls are that a) he doesn't understand it and b) he is setting himself up to go even bigger next time which leaves space for a story device.

I think Snyder would say he has accomplished raising all the steaks and seared them off beautifully, and he would absolutely write Perpetua above if he hasn't already. Or Steve Orlando would. But he hasn't adequately tackled the meta aspect of it; the idea that there's an ultimate story that can't be beaten, a literal playground idea of infinity times infinity.

I'd say in terms of comics, feats, big t-bone raised above restaurants steaks and whatnot that Perpetua wins. In terms of ideas and non tangibility Superman wins.

I like the idea of an ultimate story beyond stories, but that's hard to persist when lesser writers want to follow the same veins. And a direct retcon would be a literal "well this story includes that story beyond all stories haha" like a real hack, though I guess the idea of it existing in the first place is hackish excluding context.

Meh. I think both sides with the yt people and the latino yt people have merit. Not really something with a definitive answer considering the homosexuality of it all.

Sure do hate Snyder though. Didn't he actually touch on the Thought Robot or am I misremembering?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
This boils down to whether or not you think Snyder has done enough to spit on Morrison's concepts yet. He's certainly tried but I don't think he understands the concepts enough to drive the final nail in the coffin. He's tackling a literal deus ex machina with just more raw power and taking bits and pieces from what he understands to attempt it. He's already used meta and imagination to put it 2 dimensions higher as well. The downfalls are that a) he doesn't understand it and b) he is setting himself up to go even bigger next time which leaves space for a story device.

I think Snyder would say he has accomplished raising all the steaks and seared them off beautifully, and he would absolutely write Perpetua above if he hasn't already. Or Steve Orlando would. But he hasn't adequately tackled the meta aspect of it; the idea that there's an ultimate story that can't be beaten, a literal playground idea of infinity times infinity.

I'd say in terms of comics, feats, big t-bone raised above restaurants steaks and whatnot that Perpetua wins. In terms of ideas and non tangibility Superman wins.

I like the idea of an ultimate story beyond stories, but that's hard to persist when lesser writers want to follow the same veins. And a direct retcon would be a literal "well this story includes that story beyond all stories haha" like a real hack, though I guess the idea of it existing in the first place is hackish excluding context.

Meh. I think both sides with the yt people and the latino yt people have merit. Not really something with a definitive answer considering the homosexuality of it all.

Sure do hate Snyder though. Didn't he actually touch on the Thought Robot or am I misremembering? The Snyders took the work of two writers and adapted it without truly understanding them which is absolutely hilarious. It must be a cursed name.

Don't get me started on people believing in a Snyder cut saving JL. Snyder's are the worst and I don't believe in no relation when they're just twins in different mediums. All flash, no substance:

Sucker Punch

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Don't get me started on people believing in a Snyder cut saving JL. Snyder's are the worst and I don't believe in no relation when they're just twins in different mediums. All flash, no substance:

Sucker Punch Have you seen the original plan for Batman having a kid with Lois and Superman raising him after Bats dies?

Same guy who said Batman Begins wasn't dark and if he had wrote it Bruce would have been raped in prison.

Great guy. Visionary.

At least I'll get to see Superman wrecking the entire Justice League's shit. Again. Maybe in two different timelines.

dc's problem is they lost all the good writers

dematteis, johns, morrison, moore, ellis, waid etc


instead we got

snyder, orlando, king, bendis

things are only gonna get worse

Comics are on low budget. There will be no good writers anymore.

It will all be fan fiction from now on.

sort of feels like dc has already gone the way of fan fic in some places. /shrug

At least Jim Starlin knows enough to stay in his lane. Sticks to Thanos conquers everything yet again stories, in his own little niche end of comic space.

Infinity Gauntlet was his lightning in a bottle, and he's never reached the same heights in DC. There's a reason Death of the New Gods and Synarr hasn't been talked about by anyone ever again.

Starlin has god complex, which is good for marvel cosmology
he and ewing has done good for current marvel cosmology

hickman on the other hand...

Yes on Ewing. I like that he has a plan.... A map of sorts. He's not the best writer out there, but his hierarchy is fairly coherent or coherent enough i should say. Plus I like that he still keeps a veil on the end game which gives his cosmic heirarchy a fog of mystery.

I guess even Snyder beats most manga hierarchy.


Essentially full of school girls and dominatrix's.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Yes on Ewing. I like that he has a plan.... A map of sorts. He's not the best writer out there, but his hierarchy is fairly coherent or coherent enough i should say. Plus I like that he still keeps a veil on the end game which gives his cosmic heirarchy a fog of mystery.

Starlin too

Regulator Thanos is literally the only one beside TOAA that could contend with DC's high tier abstracts

i'd disagree with that but probably not the place for the discussion.

Conceptually and in a question who had the better writer Cosmic Armor Superman, but in any other regard stomps Perpetua pretty much, so Perpetua.

Again, What feats do CAS have combat wise?? Sin? Diesl? Darksaint? ADAM?

Originally posted by Galan007
There are a select few characters in mainstream DC who could possibly overcome the fundamental concept/story/essence of Superman made manifest in the form of Thought-Robot... and Perpetua isn't one of them, imo.

This is sort of backed by the fact that Dr. Manhattan(who was heavily indicated to be more powerful than Mxy, and a peer of Perpetua) believed that it was fully possible for Superman to actually kill him -- the multiverse's greatest antibody, and all that. /shrug

Nice post.

I agree 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Presence/Overvoid/Source>>>TOAA and Regulator Thanos, by a large amount

Lucifer alone can solo marvel including TOAA, based on feats

current marvel has like one multiverse, dc has infinite multiverses

marvel has no higher level of existence to speak of other than superflow and neutral zone (both undefined)

dc has several level of infinities each transcend the last

it's stupid to even compare two different level of cosmologies, dunno why I bring it up

It's like comparing Umineko cosmology to dragonball

you guys need to stop, they are not equal on any footing

Mandrakk has nothing to do with Snyder's cosmology, other than "hey, he appeared in that crisis event so he helped her, too". You're trying to fit David Lynch and Michael Bay in a movie.

they are not similar in any shape or form

completely different lores

Amazing stuff, very interesting read

I rarely agree with other posters, but I can't find any fault with what XSUPREMEXSKILLZ just posted.

Originally posted by Astner
I rarely agree with other posters, but I can't find any fault with what XSUPREMEXSKILLZ just posted.

you need to post more often

Thanks.

To me it's just frustrating because it's clear when reading all of Snyder's run that Perpetua is meant to be the most powerful cosmic villain we've ever been introduced to.

you know that Source Wall that exists at the edge of everything, contains countless Gods/abstract entities, and behind which are the secrets of God? It was created to hold Perpetua.

You know that hand of creation that everyone has tried to speculate about and assumed it was The Source/The Presence? That was Perpetua's hand.

You know every crisis ever? Perpetua instigated them all.

Perpetua is behind everything, the barrier that seals all of creation/story was meant to seal her, she is the Hand of God.

Also, I think a better way to word how Perpetua would be viewed in Morrison Cosmology is that she'd literally be the Hand reaching into the Overvoid and creating the concept of story against its will, causing it to split and seek to bottle said concept.

Perpetua = Aspect of God that is the Hand/Artist

Overvoid = Aspect of God that is the Canvas at the mercy of the Artist

Mandrakk = extension of the canvas that seeks to destroy what the artist created

While Perpetua will be replaced some day by a more powerful being, maybe even Darkseid, and while she one day will be forgotten, the Story of Superman will carry on. This is the most powerful force in the DC-Verse. You can call it Cosmic Armor, Anti Body or Superboy Prime but if necessary Superman will win and continue.

Yes, the story of Superman is so powerful that it takes that + the entire connective story of the DC Multiverse to match a peer of Perpetua.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, the story of Superman is so powerful that it takes that + the entire connective story of the DC Multiverse to match a peer of Perpetua.

Because the + was available for this arc, and because it's still part of his story. If everything would fail, he would stomp her by himself and that is the essence of his story. In one Story Arc, he gets downed by Atlas and needs help, ohters defeat the new big evil, in another he dominates more powerful beings with ease. For the Perpetua Arc it was ok to sit back, Superboy proved that he is above her and every story in the DC-Verse originated from Superman because
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111307566/5565482-everythingcomesfromsuperman.jpg
even Perpetua came to be because of Superman. She wouldn't exist without him. This is why Morrisons depiction is so accurate, on a meta level there was nothing before Superman.

I'm glad you brought that up Abe, because it's one of the primary and most publicly accepted reasons for why CAS and Mandrakk are as powerful as they are. Unfortunately, in modern DC cosmology, they are concepts that can be surpassed or at least expanded upon in light of greater threats.

Mandrakk and Thought Robot were the ultimate ideas of good and evil at the edge of the mind of God, with the latter being powered by the fundamental story of Superman, and the former being powered by all the stories he had consumed. Thought-Bot in this context is said to be able to adapt to any threat, and was the ultimate defender of the story of the DC Multiverse.

The problem is when you factor in the expansions to the overall DC Creation in the past few years. Morrison's cosmology focused solely on the DC creation, with the Overvoid/God directly reacting to its every move. In this context, Superman is the ultimate engine of what constitutes "all of story" in existence.

However, everything we've learned in the past few years with Snyder's cosmology expands beyond Superman's story/The DC Multiverse's story. Ever since the original Dark Knights: Metal was released, all we've been told is that the DC Multiverse (and all its antibodies) is a single boat floating in an infinite ocean of Multiverses, and that there were threats from beyond these shores unlike anything the DC Multiverse had ever faced. The first of these was Barbatos, who threatened to consume all stories in DC forever (ala Mandrakk), and the next was Perpetua.

Perpetua in this context is connected to The Source, the font of all connective energy and thus stories, duality and non-duality (in a paradoxical but literal sense). She is connected to that which transcends not only Superman's story, but every possible conception of story on infinite Multiversal scales.

This is why the heroes of the DC Multiverse can't just defeat Perpetua with the story of Superman. It's the story of Superman + all that which sprung the story of Superman and all that which sprung from the story of Superman, The Source/Presence/Prime Monitor/God. Anytime defeating Perpetua is remotely within possibility, it involves connecting to this divine energy and uniting all stories of the DC Multiverse as one. Only then can a corrupted Hand of God be vanquished.

You can mention Prime seemingly defeating Darkest Knight in a penultimate battle, but if anything it showed that the story of Superman alone is not able to truly overcome beings like Perpetua or beings on her tier. Superboy believes he has DK on his knees, but ultimately he needs DK's power to get what he wants. This is why Superboy Prime can't/doesn't simply destroy DK when it looks like he has the upper hand, he goes on a suicide run that destroys DK's "Final 52" Multiverse, which kills SBP. Mind you, DK after this is perfectly fine, literally no worse for wear at all.

What matters much more is the ultimate battle, which features Golden WW who is connected to the entire story of the DC Multiverse (including all of its divergent histories and individuals) against DK. They fight all the way to the true dawn of creation and pimp smack Perpetua's hand of creation numerous times. It is this power that actually allows DC to rid itself of a super-celestial/Hand level being.

I understand Superman's story is a powerful force, but it is merely an (admittedly large and significant) piece of an infinity of stories connected by the demiurgic power that brought Superman and his world into being.

^That is not the point. The Point of Morrisons Final Crisis and of the "everything comes from Superman" is not in the DC-Verse like in the comic but real life (metatextual). Superman was the first comic Superhero. He started it all, and as many characters as one creates, as powerful as they will be depicted, they are only there because he was created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. His story will carry on. Perpetua will be forgotten. He can't lose in the metatextual perspective.

Everything I was referring to was meant in a metatextual sense as well. The Source represents the people/creative force who brought the story of DC into being (as well as ALL stories outside of DC in a metatextual sense, as the other Multiverses are likely other fictions, such as the Lovecraft Multiverse).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Everything I was referring to was meant in a metatextual sense as well. The Source represents the people/creative force who brought the story of DC into being (as well as ALL stories outside of DC in a metatextual sense, as the other Multiverses are likely other fictions, such as the Lovecraft Multiverse).

Yet you miss the crucial point when you write "connected by the demiurgic power that brought Superman and his world into being". The demiurgic power is Superman from Action Comics #1. Everything comes from him. The writers like Synder will be forgotten, Perpetua will be gone, yet the story of Superman will carry on, it will be told long after all of us are dead. That is the meta level I am talking about and in this dimension Perpetua is nothing, just a spec of dust, a mediocre story arc that has no real impact. I know you made up your mind, so did I. I understand your point and disagree. You get my point I guess and disagree too. Which is fine.

I'm cool to agree to disagree. I just think Snyder's works have expanded the meta beyond what Superman represents, and I specifically believe the concept of what The Source represents >>>>> what Superman represents.

The story of Superman is still above pretty much all powers in DC. Doctor Manhattan understood this. That's why he believed that Superman, the greatest anti-body of creation, could kill him,

Xsupreme, as much as I'd also want to take a few days off to write an essay on how I see things, I'm a bit busy. So I'll just point out a few things from the ground up that may change the entire way you look at things and then perhaps come back later when you've adjusted.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You know that hand of creation that everyone has tried to speculate about and assumed it was The Source/The Presence? That was Perpetua's hand.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, I think a better way to word how Perpetua would be viewed in Morrison Cosmology is that she'd literally be the Hand reaching into the Overvoid and creating the concept of story against its will, causing it to split and seek to bottle said concept.

Perpetua = Aspect of God that is the Hand/Artist

Overvoid = Aspect of God that is the Canvas at the mercy of the Artist

Mandrakk = extension of the canvas that seeks to destroy what the artist created The hand that provided the energy to create the Multiverse was not Perpetua's -- she was there just to shape the raw materials that were already there, from the Source:

https://i.ibb.co/VDYns0x/7616772-5354930973-g-Vq-MC.jpg

Since this is your summary analogy, I figured it would be a good starting point to show it's not true, in order to give you time and think about things.

There's a lot of things that are incorrect here but, as a starting point, I'd advise you to look at:
- what is anti-crisis energy?
- what is crisis energy?
- what exactly is Perpetua powered by. What does it have to do with story?
- what exactly was TDK power by. What does it have to do with the story?
- what exactly was Wonder Woman powered by. What does it have to do with the story?

Then, once you answered those questions, you'll probably realize the difference between what powered Wonder Woman and what powered the Thought Robot.

If not, then I'll probably start posting scans, but it would be a lot of effort so it would be easier if you just figure it out by yourself.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm cool to agree to disagree. I just think Snyder's works have expanded the meta beyond what Superman represents, and I specifically believe the concept of what The Source represents >>>>> what Superman represents.

You wrote a length and well written response. I likely will never have the time or brain power to to provide a well written response.

That said, the way i interpreted what DC has been pushing for the past 10+ years is the essence of Superman. Superman in DC is considered the constant. DCU is alive and thriving because of him. Everything from DC is established around him. There can't be a multiverse without a Superman. It'd dies out. Superman, if alive, can't be changed. We know this because Dr.Manhattan, who is stronger than Perpatua couldn't change Superman. Mxy whom you believe is stronger than Perpetua (in the other thread you posted) couldn't change Superman's nature.

That essence of Superman, is given life in the Thought Robot. That story, of a alien baby of a dying world, sent to earth. The boy who is raised by parents and eventually becomes Superman. This story, it is considered the strongest force in DC. It's why in Superman Beyond, the question asked by Mandrakk, what do you want engraved in your tombstone is answered by Superman with "To Be Continued". It's also why Superman can do something that no one else is DC should, he can hold the bleed.

Now, I'm not saying Superman can't be killed. He has in past, but the thought robot is above that. It represents Superman.


As far as any other claim about Crisis energy or Anti-crisis being powering Wonder Woman is being interpreted wrong. WonderWoman was powered by Anti Crisis energy. As Luthor explained it, "is connective. It unites people through memory and history, reminding us we are small, but part of one epic story" He goes on to say that if they manage to build his machine, "in doings so, you will connect us all to the truth and create a powerful steam of anti-crisis energy you might be able to use to fight him"

Wonderwoman never did use "Superman's story"

Originally posted by xJLxKing
As far as any other claim about Crisis energy or Anti-crisis being powering Wonder Woman is being interpreted wrong. WonderWoman was powered by Anti Crisis energy. As Luthor explained it, "is connective. It unites people through memory and history, reminding us we are small, but part of one epic story" He goes on to say that if they manage to build his machine, "in doings so, you will connect us all to the truth and create a powerful steam of anti-crisis energy you might be able to use to fight him"

Wonderwoman never did use "Superman's story" Yeah, Xsupreme is a bit confused about what powered Wonder Woman/TDK and the Thought Robot not being the same thing. Thus my suggestion to look back a bit and try to understand it.

Xsupreme

This thread really is a good read. Both sides wrote well written essays and reasonable responses.
The metatextual things always made me confused tbh. Im glad there is a thread like this

just be glad kmc can still generate some legit debates, instead of just endless sex jokes

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
This thread really is a good read. Both sides wrote well written essays and reasonable responses.
The metatextual things always made me confused tbh. Im glad there is a thread like this When Morrison writes metaphysical he means it as a concept that comes out of the page and represents more than what he portrayed. He is literally fueling his story with the greatest story of what he perceives all time. The idea of Superman is the greatest story or idea that can exist under his pen. It is the antithesis of nothingness that erodes or eats that story and destroys all future stories. This idea will eclipse and persist past everything else. It's the idea that even when everything else gets erased that Superman will exist. If comics got erased the idea is that Superman would exist. In this story Superman's story was greater than total oblivion.
Obviously Batman is timeless as well and would exist as long but Morrison was using Superman as the ultimate foil.

As far as feats and what he did go? Not so great. That's why the metaphysical is important because it's whatever you want it to be. Morrison wrote it that way as well. He wrote it to represent heroism and stories. If you can think of the most powerful idea that exists be that hope, love, freedom or scatporn; Superman represents that in the story.

A good contrast to a typical usage in metaphysical vs actual metaphysics is also a Morrison example in Ultra Comics. That comic was metaphysical in that it was talking to the "real world" of the comic and the readers in that sense were meant to represent our world. It's typically used that there's a real world beyond comics and that's a wink and a nudge to us. What Morrison also layered on is that it was also talking to "us" - the Carver9s of his world. The comic was for DC's normal "real world" and our real world. You can see this with the whole "don't read this or..." and Ultra realizing he needs to actually manipulate the comic while being back in his world/comic panels getting erased. I think that's a good example of layering and purposes while understanding the depths that Morrison will go and his intents.

Other examples are usually comedy like Mxy, She-Hulk, Deadpool etc. Punching writers while being beholden to writers in the next book. But Morrison is entirely serious with his application so it's an integral part.

And on the note of people like Ultra Comics; because they don't have typical feats you can't exactly quantify the power. Them getting put into battle threads belies the entire point of their character. There's a limit but where that limit is has no definition to what will and won't work. Could lose to Ultraman, could lose to Darkseid. Doesn't matter. It doesn't touch on what they do or what he does. It doesn't explain his metaphysical presence and power. We'll forget the metaphysical nature of Darkseid since every other writer did as well but it's not as blatant unless you interpret the panels as getting erased.

With Superman he's supposed to represent that even with every other story in history feeding someone so they can erase it all, his story will adapt and overcome. And that includes classics like Mein Kampf presumably.

It's not a tangible concept that has edges that can be leapfrogged into the next. It's bigger than feats and why you see so many different uses of it.

What makes that difficult is using it in threads. If someone deletes 30 omniverses and physically shoves his fist up CDTM's butthole so far that it looks like CDdad's nub, then that character is more impressive by feats by far than Thought Robot and you can argue they win easily. But taking Thought Robot as a concept to represent the ultimate would have him adapt and overcome as he's the ultimate answer to anything.

Logically it should have limits like the Overvoid itself, but if Morrison were writing it I've no doubt he'd do something with pages or turn him into a comic book or something stupid. It allows your minds to create your own headcanon and imagine and that's what Morrison wants. It can beat anything if you can think it. Ironically it's the antithesis to what normal comic debating is.

What Perpetua is limited by is the same thing she excels at; being a comic character limited by comics. Snyder is too stupid to fully understand what he thinks he's going for so instead of creativity you have an increase in scope and power. Her feats exceed Thought Robots, and her scale and whatnot. By every measurable metric she exceeds him. Even the story aspect he wants his characters to benefit from. But it's the story of the characters and not the stories of what they represent and mean to a grander scale.

It's like taking Carver9 and saying he's a Hulk fan who has a blackface and hands and possibly feet but the soles of his feet and palms of his hands are white. You described Carver but simply describing Carver doesn't represent what he means. Every person, child, dog, 3 lizards and 1:1 sexdoll he has touched represent Carver. What Carver looks like, has done, will do and his impact on the world, KMC and local orphanages are part of that. It's not just Carver walked to the store and bought 2 melons to stick his dick in. It's Carver walked to the store, and some kid kicked the chair out from under them across the city because they couldn't erase the memories and the cashier was creeped out and cheated on her husband later that week and ruined her marriage because her friend invited her out after hearing the story of this guy dry thrusting a cantaloupe in her aisle while winking at her. It's this accurate second hand story about Carver. It's your reaction, it's everything.

It's hard to convey that in a story and that's the difference between what Snyder tries to do and what Morrison does.

There's two different dialogues here and I don't think either are wrong with how they're going about it. Unique battle. Perpetua wins in a typical comic battle. Thought Robot wins based on whatever real world emotions you want to apply to him.

The question is; has Snyder covered enough bases to encompass what Morrison has written and Thought Robot represents? He's tried but I don't feel good about that being a yes answer. That's why I don't think Perpetua can come to the metaphysical and win in that regard too.

What you put more stock into is who wins but it's a nice break from the monotomy nonetheless. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. Except Alberto who understands nothing about either character - he's 100 percent wrong no matter what character he says.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Morrison writes metaphysical he means it as a concept that comes out of the page and represents more than what he portrayed. He is literally fueling his story with the greatest story of what he perceives all time. The idea of Superman is the greatest story or idea that can exist under his pen. It is the antithesis of nothingness that erodes or eats that story and destroys all future stories. This idea will eclipse and persist past everything else. It's the idea that even when everything else gets erased that Superman will exist. If comics got erased the idea is that Superman would exist. In this story Superman's story was greater than total oblivion.
Obviously Batman is timeless as well and would exist as long but Morrison was using Superman as the ultimate foil.

As far as feats and what he did go? Not so great. That's why the metaphysical is important because it's whatever you want it to be. Morrison wrote it that way as well. He wrote it to represent heroism and stories. If you can think of the most powerful idea that exists be that hope, love, freedom or scatporn; Superman represents that in the story.

A good contrast to a typical usage in metaphysical vs actual metaphysics is also a Morrison example in Ultra Comics. That comic was metaphysical in that it was talking to the "real world" of the comic and the readers in that sense were meant to represent our world. It's typically used that there's a real world beyond comics and that's a wink and a nudge to us. What Morrison also layered on is that it was also talking to "us" - the Carver9s of his world. The comic was for DC's normal "real world" and our real world. You can see this with the whole "don't read this or..." and Ultra realizing he needs to actually manipulate the comic while being back in his world/comic panels getting erased. I think that's a good example of layering and purposes while understanding the depths that Morrison will go and his intents.

Other examples are usually comedy like Mxy, She-Hulk, Deadpool etc. Punching writers while being beholden to writers in the next book. But Morrison is entirely serious with his application so it's an integral part.

And on the note of people like Ultra Comics; because they don't have typical feats you can't exactly quantify the power. Them getting put into battle threads belies the entire point of their character. There's a limit but where that limit is has no definition to what will and won't work. Could lose to Ultraman, could lose to Darkseid. Doesn't matter. It doesn't touch on what they do or what he does. It doesn't explain his metaphysical presence and power. We'll forget the metaphysical nature of Darkseid since every other writer did as well but it's not as blatant unless you interpret the panels as getting erased.

With Superman he's supposed to represent that even with every other story in history feeding someone so they can erase it all, his story will adapt and overcome. And that includes classics like Mein Kampf presumably.

It's not a tangible concept that has edges that can be leapfrogged into the next. It's bigger than feats and why you see so many different uses of it.

What makes that difficult is using it in threads. If someone deletes 30 omniverses and physically shoves his fist up CDTM's butthole so far that it looks like CDdad's nub, then that character is more impressive by feats by far than Thought Robot and you can argue they win easily. But taking Thought Robot as a concept to represent the ultimate would have him adapt and overcome as he's the ultimate answer to anything.

Logically it should have limits like the Overvoid itself, but if Morrison were writing it I've no doubt he'd do something with pages or turn him into a comic book or something stupid. It allows your minds to create your own headcanon and imagine and that's what Morrison wants. It can beat anything if you can think it. Ironically it's the antithesis to what normal comic debating is.

What Perpetua is limited by is the same thing she excels at; being a comic character limited by comics. Snyder is too stupid to fully understand what he thinks he's going for so instead of creativity you have an increase in scope and power. Her feats exceed Thought Robots, and her scale and whatnot. By every measurable metric she exceeds him. Even the story aspect he wants his characters to benefit from. But it's the story of the characters and not the stories of what they represent and mean to a grander scale.

It's like taking Carver9 and saying he's a Hulk fan who has a blackface and hands and possibly feet but the soles of his feet and palms of his hands are white. You described Carver but simply describing Carver doesn't represent what he means. Every person, child, dog, 3 lizards and 1:1 sexdoll he has touched represent Carver. What Carver looks like, has done, will do and his impact on the world, KMC and local orphanages are part of that. It's not just Carver walked to the store and bought 2 melons to stick his dick in. It's Carver walked to the store, and some kid kicked the chair out from under them across the city because they couldn't erase the memories and the cashier was creeped out and cheated on her husband later that week and ruined her marriage because her friend invited her out after hearing the story of this guy dry thrusting a cantaloupe in her aisle while winking at her. It's this accurate second hand story about Carver. It's your reaction, it's everything.

It's hard to convey that in a story and that's the difference between what Snyder tries to do and what Morrison does.

There's two different dialogues here and I don't think either are wrong with how they're going about it. Unique battle. Perpetua wins in a typical comic battle. Thought Robot wins based on whatever real world emotions you want to apply to him.

The question is; has Snyder covered enough bases to encompass what Morrison has written and Thought Robot represents? He's tried but I don't feel good about that being a yes answer. That's why I don't think Perpetua can come to the metaphysical and win in that regard too.

What you put more stock into is who wins but it's a nice break from the monotomy nonetheless. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. Except Alberto who understands nothing about either character - he's 100 percent wrong no matter what character he says.

This is why I like Thor and Hulk's characters way more

Superman has been written to a ridiculous state. and he is still wearing that lame ass outfit.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Morrison writes metaphysical he means it as a concept that comes out of the page and represents more than what he portrayed. He is literally fueling his story with the greatest story of what he perceives all time. The idea of Superman is the greatest story or idea that can exist under his pen. It is the antithesis of nothingness that erodes or eats that story and destroys all future stories. This idea will eclipse and persist past everything else. It's the idea that even when everything else gets erased that Superman will exist. If comics got erased the idea is that Superman would exist. In this story Superman's story was greater than total oblivion.
Obviously Batman is timeless as well and would exist as long but Morrison was using Superman as the ultimate foil.

As far as feats and what he did go? Not so great. That's why the metaphysical is important because it's whatever you want it to be. Morrison wrote it that way as well. He wrote it to represent heroism and stories. If you can think of the most powerful idea that exists be that hope, love, freedom or scatporn; Superman represents that in the story.

A good contrast to a typical usage in metaphysical vs actual metaphysics is also a Morrison example in Ultra Comics. That comic was metaphysical in that it was talking to the "real world" of the comic and the readers in that sense were meant to represent our world. It's typically used that there's a real world beyond comics and that's a wink and a nudge to us. What Morrison also layered on is that it was also talking to "us" - the Carver9s of his world. The comic was for DC's normal "real world" and our real world. You can see this with the whole "don't read this or..." and Ultra realizing he needs to actually manipulate the comic while being back in his world/comic panels getting erased. I think that's a good example of layering and purposes while understanding the depths that Morrison will go and his intents.

Other examples are usually comedy like Mxy, She-Hulk, Deadpool etc. Punching writers while being beholden to writers in the next book. But Morrison is entirely serious with his application so it's an integral part.

And on the note of people like Ultra Comics; because they don't have typical feats you can't exactly quantify the power. Them getting put into battle threads belies the entire point of their character. There's a limit but where that limit is has no definition to what will and won't work. Could lose to Ultraman, could lose to Darkseid. Doesn't matter. It doesn't touch on what they do or what he does. It doesn't explain his metaphysical presence and power. We'll forget the metaphysical nature of Darkseid since every other writer did as well but it's not as blatant unless you interpret the panels as getting erased.

With Superman he's supposed to represent that even with every other story in history feeding someone so they can erase it all, his story will adapt and overcome. And that includes classics like Mein Kampf presumably.

It's not a tangible concept that has edges that can be leapfrogged into the next. It's bigger than feats and why you see so many different uses of it.

What makes that difficult is using it in threads. If someone deletes 30 omniverses and physically shoves his fist up CDTM's butthole so far that it looks like CDdad's nub, then that character is more impressive by feats by far than Thought Robot and you can argue they win easily. But taking Thought Robot as a concept to represent the ultimate would have him adapt and overcome as he's the ultimate answer to anything.

Logically it should have limits like the Overvoid itself, but if Morrison were writing it I've no doubt he'd do something with pages or turn him into a comic book or something stupid. It allows your minds to create your own headcanon and imagine and that's what Morrison wants. It can beat anything if you can think it. Ironically it's the antithesis to what normal comic debating is.

What Perpetua is limited by is the same thing she excels at; being a comic character limited by comics. Snyder is too stupid to fully understand what he thinks he's going for so instead of creativity you have an increase in scope and power. Her feats exceed Thought Robots, and her scale and whatnot. By every measurable metric she exceeds him. Even the story aspect he wants his characters to benefit from. But it's the story of the characters and not the stories of what they represent and mean to a grander scale.

It's like taking Carver9 and saying he's a Hulk fan who has a blackface and hands and possibly feet but the soles of his feet and palms of his hands are white. You described Carver but simply describing Carver doesn't represent what he means. Every person, child, dog, 3 lizards and 1:1 sexdoll he has touched represent Carver. What Carver looks like, has done, will do and his impact on the world, KMC and local orphanages are part of that. It's not just Carver walked to the store and bought 2 melons to stick his dick in. It's Carver walked to the store, and some kid kicked the chair out from under them across the city because they couldn't erase the memories and the cashier was creeped out and cheated on her husband later that week and ruined her marriage because her friend invited her out after hearing the story of this guy dry thrusting a cantaloupe in her aisle while winking at her. It's this accurate second hand story about Carver. It's your reaction, it's everything.

It's hard to convey that in a story and that's the difference between what Snyder tries to do and what Morrison does.

There's two different dialogues here and I don't think either are wrong with how they're going about it. Unique battle. Perpetua wins in a typical comic battle. Thought Robot wins based on whatever real world emotions you want to apply to him.

The question is; has Snyder covered enough bases to encompass what Morrison has written and Thought Robot represents? He's tried but I don't feel good about that being a yes answer. That's why I don't think Perpetua can come to the metaphysical and win in that regard too.

What you put more stock into is who wins but it's a nice break from the monotomy nonetheless. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. Except Alberto who understands nothing about either character - he's 100 percent wrong no matter what character he says. This is excellent, as always.

When I reached "freedom or scatporn", I knew the rest would be well worth it.

but the limits are blurred in this case. the robot, and what is at the heart of it, what it represents, it transcends comics. we have always been aware that the writer is the 'ultimate' god in comics, and the overvoid is only a couple pencil strokes away from being just a part of the next 'bigger thing'.

with the robot, there IS no 'next bigger thing'. why? because NOTHING IN COMICS CAN EXIST THAT IS BIGGER THAN "STORY".

the robot can be seen, from a certain perspective, as the writer made manifest--ALL writers. there is no way--in the real world OR on panel--to 'outdo' this. you would need to literally eliminate the idea of superman's story from real world consciousness.

it's...brilliant, one of the truly brilliant ideas in comics. gaiman toyed with the idea of "story" in sandman as well, but his ideas weren't nearly as avant garde as morrison's ideas.

Originally posted by leonidas

the robot can be seen, from a certain perspective, as the writer made manifest--ALL writers. there is no way--in the real world OR on panel--to 'outdo' this. you would need to literally eliminate the idea of superman's story from real world consciousness.

Originally posted by leonidas
but the limits are blurred in this case. the robot, and what is at the heart of it, what it represents, it transcends comics. we have always been aware that the writer is the 'ultimate' god in comics, and the overvoid is only a couple pencil strokes away from being just a part of the next 'bigger thing'.

with the robot, there IS no 'next bigger thing'. why? because NOTHING IN COMICS CAN EXIST THAT IS BIGGER THAN "STORY".

the robot can be seen, from a certain perspective, as the writer made manifest--ALL writers. there is no way--in the real world OR on panel--to 'outdo' this. you would need to literally eliminate the idea of superman's story from real world consciousness.

it's...brilliant, one of the truly brilliant ideas in comics. gaiman toyed with the idea of "story" in sandman as well, but his ideas weren't nearly as avant garde as morrison's ideas. Yep.

The story of the Thought Robot is the real world story that was created by humanity of the man who cannot be beat. Morrison literally says as much:



That's the whole point of the Thought Robot. Why he adapts -- even against the devourer of story, the ultimate evil. The very idea of Superman that humanity created -- the guy who will always win, whose story is unbeatable. He will always adapt against any threat.

Originally posted by leonidas
but the limits are blurred in this case. the robot, and what is at the heart of it, what it represents, it transcends comics. we have always been aware that the writer is the 'ultimate' god in comics, and the overvoid is only a couple pencil strokes away from being just a part of the next 'bigger thing'.

with the robot, there IS no 'next bigger thing'. why? because NOTHING IN COMICS CAN EXIST THAT IS BIGGER THAN "STORY".

the robot can be seen, from a certain perspective, as the writer made manifest--ALL writers. there is no way--in the real world OR on panel--to 'outdo' this. you would need to literally eliminate the idea of superman's story from real world consciousness.

it's...brilliant, one of the truly brilliant ideas in comics. gaiman toyed with the idea of "story" in sandman as well, but his ideas weren't nearly as avant garde as morrison's ideas. The story really doesn't click until you begin to wrap your head around all of its 'metaness'... Which is subsequently integral to understanding the levels at which these characters were intended to be operating.

Mandrakk is the ultimate antithesis of the plot itself: a vampiric hyper-consumer, who literally feasts upon the very thing that gives life to fiction within DC(ie. the concept of 'story' in its purest form.) To put it another way, Mandrakk devoured the very ideas that we, the audience, perceive on the comic book page... So from that perspective there was no greater threat; no greater entropy.

Thought-Robot is Mandrakk's counterpoint: it represents a story *so* powerful that it can adapt to defeat any threat, ever... Even if that threat metafictionally feeds upon the very concept that brought him into being. Dax Novu realized the power of Superman's story when he first made contact with the 'germ world'. He knew that if/when he was corrupted, Superman's hyper-story was the *only* thing in existence that could overcome him -- so he designed THE quintessential deus ex machina to channel that story: Thought-Robot, thereby engineering his own defeat.

In the end, it comes down to the idea of Superman defeating the idea of killing him... And this is, quite literally, something that *only* Superman could do.

Originally posted by Galan007
The story really doesn't click until you begin to wrap your head around all of its 'metaness'... Which is subsequently integral to understanding the levels at which these characters were intended to be operating. Therein lies the problem . And Xsupreme not differentiating between literal metafictional idea of the story of Superman being put into the pure thought form of the TR -- and confusing it with "Golden Wonder Woman was powered by that idea and all the others!". It is a fundamental misunderstanding of both stories and what they were powered by.

Originally posted by leonidas
but the limits are blurred in this case. the robot, and what is at the heart of it, what it represents, it transcends comics. we have always been aware that the writer is the 'ultimate' god in comics, and the overvoid is only a couple pencil strokes away from being just a part of the next 'bigger thing'.

with the robot, there IS no 'next bigger thing'. why? because NOTHING IN COMICS CAN EXIST THAT IS BIGGER THAN "STORY".

the robot can be seen, from a certain perspective, as the writer made manifest--ALL writers. there is no way--in the real world OR on panel--to 'outdo' this. you would need to literally eliminate the idea of superman's story from real world consciousness.

it's...brilliant, one of the truly brilliant ideas in comics. gaiman toyed with the idea of "story" in sandman as well, but his ideas weren't nearly as avant garde as morrison's ideas.

It's not the meta aspect of it, it's just thinking about Thought Robot essentially being a tiny scab. Imagine if after shooting up heroin your needle scab peeled off and started tossing you around. Fueled by the greatest rock song writing story of all time:

Heroin

That's what I mean by logically. I'd like to think needle scabs and meth scabs would be some sort of grey area but probably not delving into the metaphysical aspect of it.

Heroin, be the death of me

Pretty much done with the post, just gotta get scans. Should have it up by tomorrow. Perpetua is way more powerful than I previously thought

lol

You wanna have a discussion, or do you just wanna take continuously take days off and write walls of text?

But -- at least you took my advice and read it again.

Originally posted by MrMind
Heroin, be the death of me If only.

The difference is we can talk each individual idea in a quick exchange of opinions instead of a monologue or, even worse, a quote/unquote 4 post per person each time nightmare for 4 weeks.

In 1h-2h max we'd go through everything one step at a time if you don't just vanish every few posts to spend another 3 hours typing stuff. Stay here 2 hours, continuously, and let's get through it.

Then, once individual opinions are clear and factual we can look at the bigger picture.

That is, of course, if you want a discussion. If essays are your thing, and you want a "this is my opinion" I'm fine with that, too.

Any weird "a" with a trademark symbol is an apostrophe. I typed that part up on my phone, no idea why it keeps doing that.

You're the one making a mistake in not understanding Perpetua's purpose, Xs. Yes, she is the hand that is seen at the beginning of Multiverse, most recently in Death Metal. But there is a difference between her being the hand that gives the Multiverse shape and being the hand that provides the raw energy to create the Multiverse .

In that equation, Perpetua isn't Michael and Lucifer. She is solely Lucifer in terms of purpose.

We know for a fact that the raw energy required to build the Multiverse comes from the Source itself:

https://i.ibb.co/2FQsqBz/Source-Of-The-Multiverse.png

And then, like Lucifer, she shaped it into its form:

https://i.ibb.co/BwB20y9/Perpetua-Shape.png

Again, you must be able to first understand this point, before you can understand anything else.

How did she give shape to the Multiverse? Using the seven Dark Energies which are Perpetua's power:

https://i.ibb.co/6vWRp9b/Seven-Dark-Energies.png

https://i.ibb.co/2jsKvSK/Seven-Unnatural.png

Crisis Energy:

https://i.ibb.co/wghF1f7/Perpetua-Crisis-Energy.png

Do you understand now the mistake you make?

You're acting as if the "raw materials" are separate from the actual power. As if the Source already brings the Multiverse into being, and Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer. This is explicitly NOT the case. It is said the Hand are tasked with BIRTHING (birth: the beginning or coming into existence of something) Multiverses using connective energy (i.e. the energies of the Source that Perpetua is said to have been "entrusted with" and must "return to the Source", but corrupted into crisis energy).

It's the exact same thing as a combination of Lucifer and Michael. The Presence/Source gives Michael/Perpetua the energy to birth a Multiverse, and then Lucifer/Perpetua shape the Multiverse. It's not like the Multiverse already exists and then Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer, otherwise she would not be "birthing" the Multiverse.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You're acting as if the "raw materials" are separate from the actual power. As if the Source already brings the Multiverse into being, and Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer. This is explicitly NOT the case. It is said the Hand are tasked with BIRTHING (birth: the beginning or coming into existence of something) Multiverses using connective energy (i.e. the energies of the Source that Perpetua is said to have been "entrusted with" and must "return to the Source", but corrupted into crisis energy).

It's the exact same thing as a combination of Lucifer and Michael. The Presence/Source gives Michael/Perpetua the energy to birth a Multiverse, and then Lucifer/Perpetua shape the Multiverse. It's not like the Multiverse already exists and then Perpetua just shapes it ala Lucifer, otherwise she would not be "birthing" the Multiverse. No.

The raw materials to build are already there, Perpetua doesn't create them from scratch, she just shapes them using the 7 energies. The Source EXPLICITLY creates the raw materials and EXPLICITLY sends Perpetua to SHAPE them into a functioning Multiverse. She is Lucifer. The power of God -- the demiurge, the "Michael" who creates those materials to be shapen, is actually the Source. The power to shape the Multiverse from that raw demiurge is that of Lucifer . Perpetua is the latter part of that equation, as the Source provides the raw materials.

She is not the creator of the raw materials for the Multiverse, that is the Source itself -- she is the shaper.

This can't be any more clear, unfortunately, Xs. Don't make this harder than it needs to be.

The raw materials are the connective/crisis energy. This energy is explicitly given to Perpetua and the Hands from the Source. Hence why your scan says initially she was "given raw materials" and then is said to have to "return her energies to the Source", the raw materials are the energy.

So an unseen Hand pulls together connective energy from the Source and gives this energy to Perpetua so that she can go out to the blank, empty Overvoid and birth/shape a Multiverse of matter. This is literally how Michael and Lucifer's jobs collectively are described, with Michael birthing the matter and Lucifer shaping it into form:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/6029898-8553585363-5ekFN.jpg

She is literally birthing and shaping matter using the energy the Source gave her. She is even able to tear off pieces of the Overvoid to create/shape the guardians of her new Multiverse (The Brothers Three).

I don't really see the distinction you're drawing. You're acting like the raw materials are not the demiurgic connective energy said to be given to The Hands by The Source, but rather that the Source is like "Here's the matter, you go shape it. Oh and here are the energies of creation, that�s a whole other thing you gotta give back after you shape that matter.� The Seven Energies of Creation/The Seven Unnatural energies are the raw materials, and both birth the Multiverse and give it shape.

Edit: Perpetua not creating the the energies that birthed the Multiverse is irrelevant, because neither did Michael.

I also feel like this topic has become completely irrelevant, the meat of the discussion should be Mandrakk being fundamentally warped by a power/concept Perpetua created. As well as the whole thing about Mandrakk being beyond the concept of story/beyond creation being wrong too.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The raw materials are the connective/crisis energy. This energy is explicitly given to Perpetua and the Hands from the Source. Hence why your scan says initially she was "given raw materials" and then is said to have to "return her energies to the Source", the raw materials are the energy.

So an unseen Hand pulls together connective energy from the Source and gives this energy to Perpetua so that she can go out to the blank, empty Overvoid and birth/shape a Multiverse of matter. This is literally how Michael and Lucifer's jobs collectively are described, with Michael birthing the matter and Lucifer shaping it into form:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/6029898-8553585363-5ekFN.jpg

She is literally birthing and shaping matter using the energy the Source gave her. She is even able to tear off pieces of the Overvoid to create/shape the guardians of her new Multiverse (The Brothers Three).

I don't really see the distinction you're drawing. You're acting like the raw materials are not the demiurgic connective energy said to be given to The Hands by The Source, but rather that the Source is like "Here's the matter, you go shape it." The Seven Energies of Creation/The Seven Unnatural energies are the raw materials, and both birth the Multiverse and give it shape.

Edit: Perpetua not creating the the energies that birthed the Multiverse is irrelevant, because neither did Michael. The raw materials of the Multiverse is not created by her. Thus she -- as a sole creature without the materials from the Source is not shown to be able to create a Multiverse without those same materials. That effectively nullifies her being Michael -- a being who can self-generate power to create the raw materials for a Multiverse that Lucifer shapes into its form.

The 7 energies allow her to shape the Multiverse to her liking. That's why Luthor was hunting for them, to giver her the power back and allow her to reshape it:

https://i.ibb.co/jfDmKH0/Luthor-Shape.png

The totality of her power is, in fact, just one aspect of the power in the Multiverse -- the 7 negative forces in the Multiverse:

https://i.ibb.co/VL9KmCy/Perpetua-Seven-Force.png

And there are two poles of power in the Multiverse, also the antithesis of her:

https://i.ibb.co/y0fhnHT/Lutgbr-Sb5d-Islv-KWuwhv9-Ui3-VMf-Gx-SN1i-BOVQy-RYLSC7x-XZrw-J8-T0-Im19-W5vl-WPas-oz-PQ81w-Easl-Unm-H.jpg

The 7 Energies were used to forge/shape the Universe, just in case it was not clear the first time.

And we know for a fact that the Totality of the power that was at Perpetua's hands was inferior to the power of Dr. Manhattan when wielded by Wonder Woman:

https://i.ibb.co/DgGzvY6/Manhattan-Perpetua.png

https://i.ibb.co/xS0yj7v/Manhattan-Perpetua1.png

..and the only reasons she lost was because she was afraid to unknot the timeline. So not only is the totality of her power half the power poles in the Multiverse, she is the weaker half, too. In fact, in order for her power to awaken, the "Doom" in the Universe, the negative psychic energy was needed to rise -- thus why she, this great being, needed Luthor and the whole storyline to do so.

Another fact describing Perpetua is that throughout the entire Death Metal she is externally powered by the Crisis Energy of the Dark Matter Multiverse, after she exhausted her power in the battle with Wonder Woman:

https://i.ibb.co/0X6qRNL/Perpetual-Crisis.png

So that's her essentially 'sundipping' -- ALL throughout the event until the energy is cut off, her power begins to wane, and she dies.

In essence, the facts would be that
- she SHAPES creation with the 7 forces, she does not self-CREATE the raw materials , the latter are provided by the Source
- Her TOTALITY of power is inferior to Dr. Manhattan.
- There are multiple versions of her powers all throughout he appearances, be it gaining in power , the one with all but a fraction of her power returned , the one who with ALL the crisis energy would have lost to Manhattan's power were it not for Wonder Woman chickening out, and the one who is CONSTANTLY amped by the Crisis energy, until she is not, and she is killed.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I also feel like this topic has become completely irrelevant, the meat of the discussion should be Mandrakk being fundamentally warped by a power/concept Perpetua created. As well as the whole thing about Mandrakk being beyond the concept of story/beyond creation being wrong too. We'll get to those and Morrison's cosmology soon enough, do not worry. Snyder and Perpetua first. Baby steps.

The Source put her in the middle of a sandbox. He handed her tools (bucket, some water, and shovel). She then created sandcastle.

She didn't create the sand. It just "molded/manipulated" into a castle.

The chronological steps seem to be...

1.) The Source creates the raw materials required to construct a multiverse.
2.) Perpetua is tasked with shaping those raw materials into a physical creation.
3.) Perpetua creates the general framework/superstructure of the multiverse.
4.) Perpetua creates her children.
5.) Perpetua's children(namely WF) populate the multiversal superstructure with worlds/life, and subsequently monitor said creation across all levels.

6) It all gets removed/destroyed/erased leaving only the core structure
7) The hands/judge remake the multiverse with the correct energies

Just to post interview with Scott Snyder
https://youtu.be/_kI__lSBFe8

Basically
Primal monitor is the overvoid in vertigo
Source and presence seem to be the same thing
Perpetua molded the first multiverse but Lucifer and Michael made the second.

what a fukcin mess

Snyder is an idiot. In other news, water is wet and carver is a troll.

i used to think pretty highly of snyder. american vampire is one of my favourite books of the last couple decades. but yeah, jl has ruined him in my eyes.

i didn't like the dark multiverse--the idea was ok, but the way it was presented in metal was an utter disaster imo. metal was so awful....

Death Metal was horrible. I mean, as a joke, fine, but it was too stretched out.

I was surprised McFarlane wasn't involved.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Death Metal was horrible. I mean, as a joke, fine, but it was too stretched out.

I was surprised McFarlane wasn't involved.

He's too busy using his DC license to make action figures of his own designs.

Originally posted by xJLxKing

Perpetua molded the first multiverse but Lucifer and Michael made the second.


where was this even said? sounds like fan fic

Originally posted by leonidas
i didn't like the dark multiverse--the idea was ok, but the way it was presented in metal was an utter disaster imo. metal was so awful....

you complain about dc more than I complain about my ex-wife

probably seems that way... funny thing is, i actually really like the characters in dc. i just really dislike what is being done to some of them. i swear, snyder seems like he's got an account on here or comicvine and just...panders to feats and scale, rather than concentrating on story. and it's really just the 'cosmic' stuff i dislike of late.

in the history of comics, since i had my first superman encyclopedia back in kindergarten, and used to listen to a superman RECORD (yes, vinyl) superman has always been defined the role of superhero for me and has always, secretly, been my favourite character. so it's not "dc" that i dislike--it's the direction is all. when i first joined this forum i was in the minority preaching FOR dc and it's characters. things have changed now, so i'll often play devil's advocate and defend the underdog, but i really do love some of the dc characters. i also hate seeing opinions simply shouted down, so sometimes i stick my nose in when i don't even really care about a thread. character flaw.

it would be stupid as hell to make a new god more powerful than the mother of the multiverse

I imagine DK would get oneshotted by the hands just like perpetua did

that would be stupid but it is dc after all

Originally posted by MrMind
that would be stupid but it is dc after all You're just hating on this well drawn Darkseid.

https://i.ibb.co/NLqr8P1/9-Mj-WQy-Bjtc-FUDy-WJhw-JK7i.jpg

Doctor Who stomps

Originally posted by One Big Mob
When Morrison writes metaphysical he means it as a concept that comes out of the page and represents more than what he portrayed. He is literally fueling his story with the greatest story of what he perceives all time. The idea of Superman is the greatest story or idea that can exist under his pen. It is the antithesis of nothingness that erodes or eats that story and destroys all future stories. This idea will eclipse and persist past everything else. It's the idea that even when everything else gets erased that Superman will exist. If comics got erased the idea is that Superman would exist. In this story Superman's story was greater than total oblivion.
Obviously Batman is timeless as well and would exist as long but Morrison was using Superman as the ultimate foil.

As far as feats and what he did go? Not so great. That's why the metaphysical is important because it's whatever you want it to be. Morrison wrote it that way as well. He wrote it to represent heroism and stories. If you can think of the most powerful idea that exists be that hope, love, freedom or scatporn; Superman represents that in the story.

A good contrast to a typical usage in metaphysical vs actual metaphysics is also a Morrison example in Ultra Comics. That comic was metaphysical in that it was talking to the "real world" of the comic and the readers in that sense were meant to represent our world. It's typically used that there's a real world beyond comics and that's a wink and a nudge to us. What Morrison also layered on is that it was also talking to "us" - the Carver9s of his world. The comic was for DC's normal "real world" and our real world. You can see this with the whole "don't read this or..." and Ultra realizing he needs to actually manipulate the comic while being back in his world/comic panels getting erased. I think that's a good example of layering and purposes while understanding the depths that Morrison will go and his intents.

Other examples are usually comedy like Mxy, She-Hulk, Deadpool etc. Punching writers while being beholden to writers in the next book. But Morrison is entirely serious with his application so it's an integral part.

And on the note of people like Ultra Comics; because they don't have typical feats you can't exactly quantify the power. Them getting put into battle threads belies the entire point of their character. There's a limit but where that limit is has no definition to what will and won't work. Could lose to Ultraman, could lose to Darkseid. Doesn't matter. It doesn't touch on what they do or what he does. It doesn't explain his metaphysical presence and power. We'll forget the metaphysical nature of Darkseid since every other writer did as well but it's not as blatant unless you interpret the panels as getting erased.

With Superman he's supposed to represent that even with every other story in history feeding someone so they can erase it all, his story will adapt and overcome. And that includes classics like Mein Kampf presumably.

It's not a tangible concept that has edges that can be leapfrogged into the next. It's bigger than feats and why you see so many different uses of it.

What makes that difficult is using it in threads. If someone deletes 30 omniverses and physically shoves his fist up CDTM's butthole so far that it looks like CDdad's nub, then that character is more impressive by feats by far than Thought Robot and you can argue they win easily. But taking Thought Robot as a concept to represent the ultimate would have him adapt and overcome as he's the ultimate answer to anything.

Logically it should have limits like the Overvoid itself, but if Morrison were writing it I've no doubt he'd do something with pages or turn him into a comic book or something stupid. It allows your minds to create your own headcanon and imagine and that's what Morrison wants. It can beat anything if you can think it. Ironically it's the antithesis to what normal comic debating is.

What Perpetua is limited by is the same thing she excels at; being a comic character limited by comics. Snyder is too stupid to fully understand what he thinks he's going for so instead of creativity you have an increase in scope and power. Her feats exceed Thought Robots, and her scale and whatnot. By every measurable metric she exceeds him. Even the story aspect he wants his characters to benefit from. But it's the story of the characters and not the stories of what they represent and mean to a grander scale.

It's like taking Carver9 and saying he's a Hulk fan who has a blackface and hands and possibly feet but the soles of his feet and palms of his hands are white. You described Carver but simply describing Carver doesn't represent what he means. Every person, child, dog, 3 lizards and 1:1 sexdoll he has touched represent Carver. What Carver looks like, has done, will do and his impact on the world, KMC and local orphanages are part of that. It's not just Carver walked to the store and bought 2 melons to stick his dick in. It's Carver walked to the store, and some kid kicked the chair out from under them across the city because they couldn't erase the memories and the cashier was creeped out and cheated on her husband later that week and ruined her marriage because her friend invited her out after hearing the story of this guy dry thrusting a cantaloupe in her aisle while winking at her. It's this accurate second hand story about Carver. It's your reaction, it's everything.

It's hard to convey that in a story and that's the difference between what Snyder tries to do and what Morrison does.

There's two different dialogues here and I don't think either are wrong with how they're going about it. Unique battle. Perpetua wins in a typical comic battle. Thought Robot wins based on whatever real world emotions you want to apply to him.

The question is; has Snyder covered enough bases to encompass what Morrison has written and Thought Robot represents? He's tried but I don't feel good about that being a yes answer. That's why I don't think Perpetua can come to the metaphysical and win in that regard too.

What you put more stock into is who wins but it's a nice break from the monotomy nonetheless. Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. Except Alberto who understands nothing about either character - he's 100 percent wrong no matter what character he says.

You typed that entire thing for nothing, debates aren't about the idea of what a character represents but that they can do. his feats suck ass but they're literally all we have to use in a versus. The idea of what a character is is one thing, but in a versus is all we have to measure what they can do, and have done. Perpetua wins, easily. none of what you're arguing for has any place in a versus. Versus debates are decided through facts, not your interpretation of the author's intent. point blank.

Thus, Batman beats TOBA in a bench press competition.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thus, Batman beats TOBA in a bench press competition.

no arguments there

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thus, Batman beats TOBA in a bench press competition.

The One Below All can't physically interact with the real world and needs to possess a vessel so.... it's a no brainer that it CAN'T LIFT ANYTHING. Feats still matter and my argument is just as valid as it ever was, it doesn't change just because you tried to bring up a completely different asinine example.

Wow! This thread is full of autism and time.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Wow! This thread is full of autism and time. lol

bump to remind people we used to have great debates