Pikkon vs. Broly

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Mendax
LSSJ Broly from movie 8.

Jmanghan
Probably Pikkon, he beat Cell and the rest without exerting effort.

Galan007
Pikkon.

Marikina
Broly wins. Pikkon had an even match with SSJ Goku in the tournament and barely any time has passed since the Cell Game. Even at the end of movie 11 Pikkon couldn't be trusted to take on a rampaging Broly in Hell by himself and Goku had to come along.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Marikina
Broly wins. Pikkon had an even match with SSJ Goku in the tournament and barely any time has passed since the Cell Game. Even at the end of movie 11 Pikkon couldn't be trusted to take on a rampaging Broly in Hell by himself and Goku had to come along. Goku was way behind Pikkon until he went Super Saiyan + Kaioken.

Marikina
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Goku was way behind Pikkon until he went Super Saiyan + Kaioken.

Goku only needed the SSJKK to fight out of Pikkon's tornado attack, otherwise they were fighting evenly.

Galan007
^ Goku activated the Super-KaioKen against Pikkon after he powered out of the tornado:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtUPXQprZU4&t=0m57s

As you can see, Goku used that technique to attack Pikkon directly, with what appeared to be an all-out strike... And even though the SKK would have briefly given Goku the equivalent of SS2-level power(KaioKen = 2x amp; SS2 = 2x SS1), Pikkon still soaked his amped punch without skipping a beat.


*For a point of reference, we've seen what a casual, SS2-level strike, was able to do to the likes of Perfect Cell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0txmO-riBE&t=1m0s


So yeah. /shrug

Marikina
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Goku activated the Super-KaioKen against Pikkon after he powered out of the tornado:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtUPXQprZU4&t=0m57s

As you can see, Goku used that technique to attack Pikkon directly, with what appeared to be an all-out strike... And even though the SKK would have briefly given Goku the equivalent of SS2-level power(KaioKen = 2x amp; SS2 = 2x SS1), Pikkon still soaked his amped punch without skipping a beat.


*For a point of reference, we've seen what a casual, SS2-level strike, was able to do to the likes of Perfect Cell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0txmO-riBE&t=1m0s


So yeah. /shrug

Well, that's kinda worse actually as Goku didn't even need an amp to break out of the attack, and he was able to withstand Pikkon's subsequent attacks and blast him out with just his normal strength. In contrast Broly tanked everything Goku threw at him.

A 2x amp for Goku wouldn't mean much since that'd just put him at FP Perfect Cell's level at best.

Galan007
Originally posted by Marikina
A 2x amp for Goku wouldn't mean much since that'd just put him at FP Perfect Cell's level at best. Huh?

FPSS1 Goku and FPSS1 Gohan were on a similar level during the Cell Games. You could certainly argue that Gohan was a bit stronger than Goku at the time, but the difference wasn't vast by any stretch. That is to say: Goku's superior fighting skill would've likely bridged/overcame the power-gap in an actual fight between them. That said, if Goku had unlocked SS2 during the Cell Games, he too would've raped Perfect Cell without much difficulty, imo... But I digress.

My only point is:
SS2 = a 2x amp over SS1.
Super KaioKen = a 2x amp over SS1.

Therefore, Goku would have been channeling power equivalent to SS2 when he attacked Pikkon -- yet Pikkon soaked it without skipping a beat.

There's also the fact that Pikkon casually two-pieced Perfect Cell(something that required SS2-level power during the Cell Games):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyciaLNNO84&t=1m57s
*That is not something I think Movie #8 Broly is capable of.

But like the Movies, anime filler is a broken shitshow when it comes to "scaling". /shrug

Marikina
Originally posted by Galan007
Huh?

FPSS1 Goku and FPSS1 Gohan were on a similar level during the Cell Games. You could certainly argue that Gohan was a bit stronger than Goku at the time, but the difference wasn't vast by any stretch. That is to say: Goku's superior fighting skill would've likely bridged/overcame the power-gap in an actual fight between them. That said, if Goku had unlocked SS2 during the Cell Games, he too would've raped Perfect Cell without much difficulty, imo... But I digress.

My only point is:
SS2 = a 2x amp over SS1.
Super KaioKen = a 2x amp over SS1.

Therefore, Goku would have been channeling power equivalent to SS2 when he attacked Pikkon -- yet Pikkon soaked it without skipping a beat.

There's also the fact that Pikkon casually two-pieced Perfect Cell(something that required SS2-level power during the Cell Games):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyciaLNNO84&t=1m57s
*That is not something I think Movie #8 Broly is capable of.

But like the Movies, anime filler is a broken shitshow when it comes to "scaling". /shrug

Gohan was a stronger SSJ than Goku during the Cell Game by a significant amount. And his SSJ2 wasn't normal since it was rage boosted.

Jmanghan
Originally posted by Marikina
Gohan was a stronger SSJ than Goku during the Cell Game by a significant amount. And his SSJ2 wasn't normal since it was rage boosted. Do you have any proof of this?

Any reason to believe this is the case? Because it seemed like Goku was doing just fine against Perfect Cell during his fight with him, that isn't to say he was as powerful as Cell, but he could hold his own as an equal against him at the time.

Marikina
Originally posted by Jmanghan
Do you have any proof of this?

Any reason to believe this is the case? Because it seemed like Goku was doing just fine against Perfect Cell during his fight with him, that isn't to say he was as powerful as Cell, but he could hold his own as an equal against him at the time.

Proof of what? Believe what is the case?

Perfect Cell was suppressed when he fought Goku. We never saw his full strength until he fought SSJ2 Gohan and it was enough to scare the others even though they've just seen Gohan easily take out the Cell Juniors.

Galan007
Originally posted by Marikina
Gohan was a stronger SSJ than Goku during the Cell Game by a significant amount. And his SSJ2 wasn't normal since it was rage boosted. Stronger, sure. Significantly stronger(to the point where he would have soundly beaten Goku), though? Nah, no proof of that. I am still of the opinion that Gohan was stronger... But not so much stronger that he could overcome Goku's superior fighting skill.

Rage simply triggered/pushed Gohan into activating SS2, which is typically how SS transformations are initially triggered for all Saiyans across the board. That said, Z Gohan was always 'special' in the fact that he had a massive pool of additional power that he could tap in moments of extreme duress(see his final Kamehameha against SPC)... But that's not what I'm referencing here.

Marikina
Originally posted by Galan007
Stronger, sure. Significantly stronger(to the point where he would have soundly beaten Goku), though? Nah, no proof of that. I am still of the opinion that Gohan was stronger... But not so much stronger that he could overcome Goku's superior fighting skill.

Rage simply triggered/pushed Gohan into activating SS2, which is typically how SS transformations are initially triggered for all Saiyans across the board. That said, Z Gohan was always 'special' in the fact that he had a massive well of additional power that he could tap in moments of extreme duress(see his final Kamehameha against SPC)... But that's not what I'm referencing here.

Gohan was underwhelmed by Goku's full power and was wondering why everyone was so impressed. When Goku asked Gohan if his fight with Cell was too incredible and if he could keep up, Gohan said he could but he thought that Goku was holding back when he wasn't. Cell conceded that Goku was telling the truth when he said Gohan was stronger after seeing him power up, which he wouldn't do for a marginal increase. Cell had to go all out in speed just to hit Gohan.

Galan007
Originally posted by Marikina
Gohan was underwhelmed by Goku's full power and was wondering why everyone was so impressed. When Goku asked Gohan if his fight with Cell was too incredible and if he could keep up, Gohan said he could but he thought that Goku was holding back when he wasn't. Gohan was used to Goku being stronger than himself, as that's pretty much the way it always was up to that point in the story. Like many children do, Gohan had put his father on a pedestal and elevated him to unbeatable, godlike status... So when Gohan noticed that Goku's power was ~/< his own, he naturally believed that Goku was holding back.

That said, this does not imply some huge difference between them.

Originally posted by Marikina
Cell conceded that Goku was telling the truth when he said Gohan was stronger after seeing him power up, which he wouldn't do for a marginal increase. -Goku stated that Gohan was stronger than himself.
-Gohan powered up against Cell.
-Cell stated that while Goku may not have been bluffing about Gohan's power, he still wasn't strong enough to beat him in his suppressed state.

But again, Cell's inference doesn't denote some vast difference between Goku and Gohan. Marginally stronger is still stronger.


tl;dr
I agree that Gohan was stronger than Goku(as I've said repeatedly.) However, was Gohan vastly/significantly stronger, to the point where he could beat Goku in a fight? Not necessarily. I believe the difference between them was indeed marginal, in the sense that Goku's superior fighting skill could very well bridge the gap in raw power.

Originally posted by Marikina
Cell had to go all out in speed just to hit Gohan. That's not quite accurate.

Yes, Perfect Cell used his "real/full" speed against Gohan... And then proceeded to pummel him with that speed. Cell noticed that Gohan was fast, and wanted to show him how insignificant his speed still was.

IOW, Perfect Cell didn't necessarily need to use his full speed against Gohan in that instance. More accurately, he chose to use his full speed in order to arrogantly belittle Gohan's abilities.

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