How strong is Hercules really by comparison.........

Stoic

Originally posted by Booya_69
Classic or current?

Both. Cain at his classic non amplified levels was roughly as strong as Wonder Man. I base this opinion upon him being trapped beneath a collapsed ancient temple that took him years to escape. Another citing show him near dead even arm wrestling Simon, but I'm not certain whether that was canon, as it was in what I believe a swim suit edition that Marvel put out. However, we did see how easily Thor overpowered him when a portion of his enchantment was nullified. Cain seemed far stronger than he actually was due to his toughness. He could put all of his strength into a punch without fear, because his toughness was always far greater than his strength. If it took him years to get out of a collapsed temple, he'd never be able to lift a state. Am I making sense here?

lawest9

Originally posted by Stoic
Both. Cain at his classic non amplified levels was roughly as strong as Wonder Man. I base this opinion upon him being trapped beneath a collapsed ancient temple that took him years to escape. Another citing show him near dead even arm wrestling Simon, but I'm not certain whether that was canon, as it was in what I believe a swim suit edition that Marvel put out. However, we did see how easily Thor overpowered him when a portion of his enchantment was nullified. Cain seemed far stronger than he actually was due to his toughness. He could put all of his strength into a punch without fear, because his toughness was always far greater than his strength. If it took him years to get out of a collapsed temple, he'd never be able to lift a state. Am I making sense here? Plenty, Hercules IS stronger.

abhilegend

Hercules isn't stronger than Juggernaut

lawest9

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hercules isn't stronger than Juggernaut What strength feats does Juggs have that surpassesHerc's?

abhilegend

He is at least as strong as Thor and was genuinely considered stronger than Hulk for decades by editorial. Hercules is pretty much a jobber.

Stoic

The Juggernaut has never been stronger than the Hulk. His enchantment was the only thing that has ever given him the edge over the true heavyweights. Thor has never been as strong as the Hulk either. Thor removed the enchantment that gave him his force field and we saw who was stronger.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hercules isn't stronger than Juggernaut

thumb up

Of course he's not. We would need to use some severely depowered versions of Cain.

Which is not fair, especially considering how Herc was depowered himself a good few times (ranging from peak human to solid meta levels).

Regular Juggernaut tears Immortal Herc's arms off, simple as that.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Stoic
The Juggernaut has never been stronger than the Hulk. His enchantment was the only thing that has ever given him the edge over the true heavyweights. Thor has never been as strong as the Hulk either. Thor removed the enchantment that gave him his force field and we saw who was stronger.
Someone should have told that to Hulk editorial.

Hulk 424

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FHeY987GifQ/X5Ti9XiEXyI/AAAAAAAANkM/fUm5zNeMx8UeW6lji-gtt9Sr_ZXT7z6zACLcBGAsYHQ/s1519/hulk424.jpg

Hulk 429

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wTXX8vC1rKU/X5TjEbdoNnI/AAAAAAAANkQ/f5SdnQPGsVIUSlhTURtKh8ByF5oiQ50VACLcBGAsYHQ/s1542/hulk429.jpg

Hulk 432

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j8_AaeZcEdQ/X5TjHkeBS8I/AAAAAAAANkY/ZHXNKNUFn9AExBz4V4OfYpdf8ITCdbIYwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1523/hulk432.jpg

All deny that Hulk was stronger than Juggernaut.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
thumb up

Stoic

Originally posted by abhilegend
Someone should have told that to Hulk editorial.

Hulk 424

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FHeY987GifQ/X5Ti9XiEXyI/AAAAAAAANkM/fUm5zNeMx8UeW6lji-gtt9Sr_ZXT7z6zACLcBGAsYHQ/s1519/hulk424.jpg

Hulk 429

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wTXX8vC1rKU/X5TjEbdoNnI/AAAAAAAANkQ/f5SdnQPGsVIUSlhTURtKh8ByF5oiQ50VACLcBGAsYHQ/s1542/hulk429.jpg

Hulk 432

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j8_AaeZcEdQ/X5TjHkeBS8I/AAAAAAAANkY/ZHXNKNUFn9AExBz4V4OfYpdf8ITCdbIYwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1523/hulk432.jpg

All deny that Hulk was stronger than Juggernaut.

I recall the Hulk grabbing the Juggernaut with one hand, spinning him, and throwing him into a mountain. You use interviews, and editorials only when they suit your argument. The Hulk has no upper limit to his strength. Cain does and did. Thor overpowered him, or are we ignoring that as well?

StiltmanFTW

How does that prove anything?

Wolverine and Captain America have thrown plenty of Class 100 bricks.

It doesn't make them even 5-10% as strong as those characters.

cdtm

The force field theory isn't really supported by the vast majority of his stories.

It's outright contradicted in the Eighth Day story for example, where the text specifically states his clothes are "invulnerable".

There is also the fact that if all he was is a force field, his helmet would be protected. It has always been the one vulnerable part of his person.

Stoic

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
How does that prove anything?

Wolverine and Captain America have thrown plenty of Class 100 bricks.

It doesn't make them even 5-10% as strong as those characters.

No upper strength limit. Thor overpowered him when he lost the unstoppable enchantment. But yeah, let's willfully ignore that the opinions of the editorial team hold very little weight here.

StiltmanFTW

He didn't overpower him. He struck him a few times and Juggs was hurt, but he took it like a man.

Weaker characters can combo-to-ko stronger ones. So again, it means shit.

Stoic

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He didn't overpower him. He struck him a few times and Juggs was hurt, but he took it like a man.

Weaker characters can combo-to-ko stronger ones. So again, it means shit.

Do you have the scans? Are you saying that the Juggernaut is actually stronger than the Hulk? Getting back on topic, how is Cain stronger than Blue Marvel, when it took him years to free himself from that ancient temple, let alone stronger than Hercules? Are we still using the full capacity rule here?

cdtm

Stilt's right, Thor beat on Juggernaut a little but failed to KO him.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGAUpJ5jBs/VmTigWFRj5I/AAAAAAAAvgk/gmYVrS3EDL4/s1600/thor429_15.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EG59hQXPV9g/VmTikOYfwbI/AAAAAAAAvgs/JhVPTwXotwM/s1600/thor429_16.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cxs-IqgoUR0/VmTinuSkhVI/AAAAAAAAvg0/PTYDfTgIpSc/s1600/thor429_17.gif

The way I see it, this is a feat for Juggernaut. He just loses his enchantment, yet fights on and holds his own. Odds are that last punch wouldn't have KO'd him even without the force field.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Stoic
I recall the Hulk grabbing the Juggernaut with one hand, spinning him, and throwing him into a mountain. You use interviews, and editorials only when they suit your argument. The Hulk has no upper limit to his strength. Cain does and did. Thor overpowered him, or are we ignoring that as well?
How's a letter page interview? You think you know better than Hulk's writer team?

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by cdtm
Stilt's right, Thor beat on Juggernaut a little but failed to KO him.

The way I see it, this is a feat for Juggernaut. He just loses his enchantment, yet fights on and holds his own. Odds are that last punch wouldn't have KO'd him even without the force field.

thumb up

Of course it's a feat for Cain.

Imagine how being invulnerable/unstoppable is your whole thing. Now you get robbed of it, you feel pain again, you can get your lights punched out... yet the Elite Class 100 herald still fails to do it before your forcefield restarts itself.

Helluva feat.

Also, we're discussing strength and strength alone - bad example to use for Stoic, almost totally off-topic, even.

cdtm

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
thumb up

tkitna

Originally posted by cdtm
Shows he's stronger than Wonder Man at least.

Because Thor could one shot Simon.

Has that ever happened?

StiltmanFTW

No.

But Simon did floor Thor in a single hit in NA.

cdtm

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No.

But Simon did floor Thor in a single hit in NA.

He did?

I know classic Simon "toppled" Thor. With a sucker punch. And the text made it clear he wasn't actually hurt.

Juggernaut did one shot Thing, for the record. Even Hulk rarely, if ever, did that.

carver9

Stoic

Originally posted by cdtm
He did?

I know classic Simon "toppled" Thor. With a sucker punch. And the text made it clear he wasn't actually hurt.

Juggernaut did one shot Thing, for the record. Even Hulk rarely, if ever, did that.

Because Cain can use all of his strength without fear of injuring himself. This is due to him having a toughness well beyond his strength level. Pretty sure I mentioned that. Stilt hates Thor and Hercules. For those reasons, it makes it pretty hard to take his opinion seriously.

Stoic

Originally posted by cdtm
Stilt's right, Thor beat on Juggernaut a little but failed to KO him.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGAUpJ5jBs/VmTigWFRj5I/AAAAAAAAvgk/gmYVrS3EDL4/s1600/thor429_15.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EG59hQXPV9g/VmTikOYfwbI/AAAAAAAAvgs/JhVPTwXotwM/s1600/thor429_16.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cxs-IqgoUR0/VmTinuSkhVI/AAAAAAAAvg0/PTYDfTgIpSc/s1600/thor429_17.gif

The way I see it, this is a feat for Juggernaut. He just loses his enchantment, yet fights on and holds his own. Odds are that last punch wouldn't have KO'd him even without the force field.

I said that Thor overpowered him. Stop dick riding.

Stoic

Originally posted by abhilegend
How's a letter page interview? You think you know better than Hulk's writer team?

Inadmissible bullshit is what it is.

StiltmanFTW

You said so and you were wrong, yes.

Stoic

Cain had all of his strength in that showing. Thor overpowered him.

Stoic

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You said so and you were wrong, yes.

Thor overpowered him, Yes? Of course he did. It's right there for all to see. You'd have to be awfully biased to see it any other way.

StiltmanFTW

No, he utilized his skill. Against an opponent who was not used to fight without his invulnerability.

And guess what, he still failed, Cain's incredible stamina gets mentioned twice.

And again, we're discussing strength here, not durability. They don't grapple. Thor focuses on dodging the blows and getting the most hits in.

Captain America has done it to Mister Hyde. Numerous times. Is Steve stronger than Hyde, going by your "logic" here? Yes?

cdtm

Originally posted by Stoic
Because Cain can use all of his strength without fear of injuring himself. This is due to him having a toughness well beyond his strength level. Pretty sure I mentioned that. Stilt hates Thor and Hercules. For those reasons, it makes it pretty hard to take his opinion seriously.

I agree Stilt is incorrigible.

Hating Hercules! Who would ever imagine! 😱

Booya_69

Originally posted by Stoic
Thor overpowered him, Yes? Of course he did. It's right there for all to see. You'd have to be awfully biased to see it any other way.

The thing is that prior to that fight, juggernaut was known for invulnerability PLUS his forcefeild. In that particular issue the writer tied his ff to his invulnerability. Writer error or marvel retcon?
Also juggernaut states he's EASILY thors equal, so that dismisses him being in wondermans strength class and hercules being stronger than him. Wonderman almost died lifting thors weights...lol

I think juggs also states he's hulks equal in the #174 fight

Juggernaut also outmuscled hulk in the wwh storyline. I could be getting the situation twisted, but a fan asked the writer of xmen/wwh arc if it was juggernauts unstoppability or a test of strength. The writer responded it was a test of strength...

lawest9

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, he utilized his skill. Against an opponent who was not used to fight without his invulnerability.

And guess what, he still failed, Cain's incredible stamina gets mentioned twice.

And again, we're discussing strength here, not durability. They don't grapple. Thor focuses on dodging the blows and getting the most hits in.

Captain America has done it to Mister Hyde. Numerous times. Is Steve stronger than Hyde, going by your "logic" here? Yes? True that Cain did show great endurance in taking that battering, but he was on his way out if his forcefield haven't kicked back in, that is what saved him.

StiltmanFTW

Yes, but nobody is denying that.

Captain America has done the same thing to Mister Hyde... and Spider-Man has beaten Firelord like that...

... is anyone arguing that makes them physically stronger than those guys? Hell, no.

It's a nice display of combat skill and speed... or rather, it would have been, if not for the fact that Thor's opponent was specifically not used to handling himself sans his invulnerability.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Stoic
Inadmissible bullshit is what it is.
laughing out loud

Stoic

Originally posted by Booya_69
The thing is that prior to that fight, juggernaut was known for invulnerability PLUS his forcefeild. In that particular issue the writer tied his ff to his invulnerability. Writer error or marvel retcon?
Also juggernaut states he's EASILY thors equal, so that dismisses him being in wondermans strength class and hercules being stronger than him. Wonderman almost died lifting thors weights...lol

I think juggs also states he's hulks equal in the #174 fight

Juggernaut also outmuscled hulk in the wwh storyline. I could be getting the situation twisted, but a fan asked the writer of xmen/wwh arc if it was juggernauts unstoppability or a test of strength. The writer responded it was a test of strength...

WW Hulk was the Green Scar holding back. We know this, it isn't really something that can be disputed. Why don't we go way back to the 90s? Do you remember Malibu comics? The Juggernaut was in those books. There was a cave-in during one of his apperances, and not that it was a bad scene of Cain, but it shows him struggling to keep a cave ceiling from falling on him. That's a cave. Compare that to the Hulk's lifting feats, Thor/Hercules' lifting feats, or Blue Marvel effortlessly lifting ahuge pyramid let alone a state sized asteroid that he had no trouble stopping. How can anyone claim that Cain is stronger than the Hulk when he stops holding back?

Abhi wants to lean on the comments page where one guy gives his opinion on a character that they did not create, while ignoring all of the countless times that it has been stated that the Hulk is the strongest one of all. When was Cain ever stated to be the strongest one of all? We have a scan of him fighting Thor, and we see firsthand which of them were dominant. Stilt makes it seem as if Thor becomes a Wu Shu master, and parries Cain's attacks. That's not what was shown though. Thor was hit full on, and he took the hit much like he'd take Wonder Man's attacks. He then proceeds to nearly KO Cain, who was practically helpess. Toughness enchantment kicks in, and Cain is saved.

We've seen Thor go at it with the Hulk, and we've seen the Hulk weather those same attacks. The difference here is that the Hulk is always fearful that if he stops holding back he'd end up killing more than his opponent. These are facts that were written on panel.

Let's jump to Colossus vs The Juggernaut in a bar. That scene takes place when Colossus was still a teen. Do you recall what the Green Scar did to Colossus' arms during a test of strength? Rewind* The famous bar room brawl between Colossus and the Juggernaut. Look how long it took for Cain the defeat a younger, weaker version of Colossus, and compare it to the scene during WW Hulk, who not only broke Colossus' arms but beat his entire team with other Mutant teams jumping in. He was still drastically holding back.

Way back during the Secret Wars, the Hulk braces an entire mountain, while Cain was trapped beneath a collapsed temple which took him years to get out of. How could anyone belive that Cain is stronger than the Hulk unless they've decided to willfully ignore all of that?

DarkSaint85

But you are using a low showing for Cain, and comparing it to s good showing of Hulk's.

Stoic

Show me Cain's best non amplified lifting feat.

abhilegend

Seriously?

Magnificent M

Isn't Juggy's power level, including strength, depending on how much Cyttorak funnels into him?
Can anybody actually set a defined level if it depends on if your sugardaddy is pleased with you or not?

Psychotron

Considering Juggernaut was overpowering WWH I think some of you are underestimating him quite a bit.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Booya_69
The thing is that prior to that fight, juggernaut was known for invulnerability PLUS his forcefeild.

Only according to Beast.

And let's be honest, Beast's power level can't allow him to properly assess Juggernaut's invulnerability --- especially considering how it was Hank in his original form.

Anyway, no point in discussing it now - let's stick to the topic - Stoic wanted that Thor/Juggernaut fight to prove that Thor has the strength advantage - when it doesn't prove such thing at all.

In fact, the comic specifically mentions Juggernaut retains his strength and stamina --- both things Thor is so impressed of, he is careful and trying to make the most of the situation.

Wolverine has knocked out Roughouse with his fists alone. Does that make him stronger than Roughouse? No.

Other examples, Cap vs. Hyde, Spider-Man vs. Firelord (or Rhino), hell you even have Winter Soldier with his bionic arm nerfed down to human levels, still managing to beat Boris Bullski or Ursa Major.

DarkSaint85

Batman and Grundy evil face

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman and Grundy evil face

Yes.

Or Batman vs. Titan Super Gladiator.

Wildcat/Grundy. Green Arrow/Grundy.

Moon Knight and Werewolf by Knight.

Wonder Woman and

--
Imagine playing a multiplayer game. Suddenly, a cheater who always played with godmode on, can't play like that anymore.

Even the average players will whoop his ass before he gets enough time to actually get used to normal rules of the game.

That was the case with Thor and Juggernaut there.

...

Except Thor failed to get the job done.

carver9

Hulk is the most powerful being on the planet, no taking away from this. He shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread. In regards to Hercules, I would put him above Thor by a little in strength and dead even with Jugs.

abhilegend

Hercules isn't stronger than Thor

StiltmanFTW

Even if he is, the difference is marginal.

abhilegend

He isn't. Even as recent as Thor 701, he was matched by Jane Thor.

StiltmanFTW

Yes. And?

Jane appears to be a good deal stronger than the real Thor laughing out loud

Also, Herc matched her even though she electrocuted him...

carver9

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hercules isn't stronger than Thor

He is though but not by enough to make a difference.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes. And?

Jane appears to be a good deal stronger than the real Thor laughing out loud

Also, Herc matched her even though she electrocuted him...
No, she was as strong as Thor under Aaron and weaker everywhere else.

abhilegend

Originally posted by carver9
He is though but not by enough to make a difference.
Yeah, no.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, she was as strong as Thor under Aaron and weaker everywhere else.

She ripped through that adamantium-vibranium alloy with her bare fingers.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, no.

They're very close, but if anyone has the advantage, it's the god of strength. Not the god of hammers and electrocuting himself.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
She ripped through that adamantium-vibranium alloy with her bare fingers.

So has Thing and Ms Marvel.

Well if we are talking about meme version of Thor, sure. Hercules is a bigger jobber than even Thor though.

Booya_69

Originally posted by Stoic
WW Hulk was the Green Scar holding back. We know this, it isn't really something that can be disputed.

And I'm agreement with that statement. We all saw hulk spike well beyond wwh levels in an instant. I wasn't trying to say that Cain is stronger than the Hulk, but hercules is a different story. I apologize, my post wasn't clear.
But it cements abhis post. The writers back then viewed juggernaut as a big threat to the hulk and decades later writers still think that. How many times have we seen hercules on a team fight hulk and still lose? I also think your looking too much into strength feats. Juggernaut always matches up well with the heavy hitters. The thing has better strength feats than the Juggernaut, but he was swatted away like a fly when he stepped to juggs. Juggernaut walked up on thor and ***** slapped him like a red headed step child. Cain was about to snap the hulks neck right before hulks strength spiked. Hercules wouldn't fair any better imo

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by abhilegend
So has Thing and Ms Marvel.

No.

Thing has punched his way through.

Carol has broken free of the shackles.

Jane has actually digged her fingers through the alloy, way more impressive.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well if we are talking about meme version of Thor, sure. Hercules is a bigger jobber than even Thor though.

There is no bigger jobber than Thor.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No.

Thing has punched his way through.

Carol has broken free of the shackles.

Jane has actually digged her fingers through the alloy, way more impressive.

She actually got her fingers through the gaps and opened the door.

Thor never got cut up by Zabu

StiltmanFTW

No, but he got cut up by everyone & everything else.

Zabu is a sabertooth tiger AMPED by that magical mist, you were kind enough to point that out a few years back and now it comes back and bites you in the ass here.

Stop being a thorbag.

abhilegend

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, but he got cut up by everyone & everything else.

Zabu is a sabertooth tiger AMPED by that magical mist, you were kind enough to point that out a few years back and now it comes back and bites you in the ass here.

Stop being a thorbag.
A T-Thorbag? I thought you liked me stilt 😭😭😭😭

abhilegend

I don't even remember the Zabu incident lmao. You have an impressive memory.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by abhilegend
A T-Thorbag? I thought you liked me stilt 😭😭😭😭

I went too far here. Sorry.

Praising Thor in any way makes me mad. It reminds me of bad times on KMC when we had posters who actually believed that shit.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't even remember the Zabu incident lmao. You have an impressive memory.

Well, you were talking about Ka-Zar being enhanced.

Thing is, it's not just him, both he and his pet tiger were affected by the mist.

Unless you want to say you no longer believe in the enhancement (which is debatable, as it barely gets mentioned), but then you need to accept Ka-Zar as a powerless being, too.

Can't have it both ways!

abhilegend

I can't even remember that. I've had so much information about comics, I've forgotten more than most people here know.

DarkSaint85

I wouldn't mind him being a normal dude, actually.

StiltmanFTW

Normal dudes don't murder Africans and Russians enhanced by herbs and potions.

And they sure as hell don't sodomize Thanos against his will.

DarkSaint85

*shrugs* it's comics. There are a whole host of 'peak humans' who do superhuman things.

StiltmanFTW

You want a normal jungle boy, go date Tarzan.

Stoic

Originally posted by Booya_69
And I'm agreement with that statement. We all saw hulk spike well beyond wwh levels in an instant. I wasn't trying to say that Cain is stronger than the Hulk, but hercules is a different story. I apologize, my post wasn't clear.
But it cements abhis post. The writers back then viewed juggernaut as a big threat to the hulk and decades later writers still think that. How many times have we seen hercules on a team fight hulk and still lose? I also think your looking too much into strength feats. Juggernaut always matches up well with the heavy hitters. The thing has better strength feats than the Juggernaut, but he was swatted away like a fly when he stepped to juggs. Juggernaut walked up on thor and ***** slapped him like a red headed step child. Cain was about to snap the hulks neck right before hulks strength spiked. Hercules wouldn't fair any better imo

Lifting feats are the ultimate way to measure how strong these characters are. The Juggernaut would've likely beaten Thor if his unstoppable enchantment weren't removed from. Thor never tampered with his strength. We also saw how well Warpath and Colossus did against him. Those two aren't super heavyweights. When has Thor ever been a Batman, Daredevil, Captain America type of fighter? He's known for strength and power, not acrobatics, and Kung Fu.

carver9

Herc is around Thor, Superman level but below Thanos, Hulk levels

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Stoic
When has Thor ever been a Batman, Daredevil, Captain America type of fighter? He's known for strength and power, not acrobatics, and Kung Fu.

And yet that's what we see him doing... avoiding Cain's finishing strike and trying to make the most of the no-forcefield situation.

He doesn't deny Cain's words and is impressed by his stamina, confirming that Juggernaut wasn't bullshitting him (and us, the readers) earlier.

He didn't overpower him. Get that shit out of here.

No grappling, no strength testing, just a good combo AFTER realizing the danger and needing to resort to dodging.

And he still ****ed everything up. Congrats, I guess...?

h1a8

Originally posted by carver9
Herc is around Thor, Superman level but below Thanos, Hulk levels Why is Thanos above Superman?
Why is Hulk above Superman?

lawest9

Originally posted by h1a8
Why is Thanos above Superman?
Why is Hulk above Superman? Good question.

abhilegend

Originally posted by carver9
Herc is around Thor, Superman level but below Thanos, Hulk levels
laughing out loud

One of the things isn't like the others.

carver9

Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

One of the things isn't like the others.

I guess you can remove Thanos or Hulk then.

Booya_69

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Only according to Beast.

And let's be honest, Beast's power level can't allow him to properly assess Juggernaut's invulnerability --- especially considering how it was Hank in his original form.

Anyway, no point in discussing it now - let's stick to the topic - Stoic wanted that Thor/Juggernaut fight to prove that Thor has the strength advantage - when it doesn't prove such thing at all.

I agree. I don't think it showed thor having the strength advantage. It was meant to display thors superior fighting ability compared to cains basic brawl methods.

Booya_69

Originally posted by carver9
He is though but not by enough to make a difference.

I think he has better h2h fighting ability, he's faster, some cases has better durability. But stronger? How so?

Stoic

Originally posted by Booya_69
I agree. I don't think it showed thor having the strength advantage. It was meant to display thors superior fighting ability compared to cains basic brawl methods.

Thor is literally punched while being on the ground. He was able to take Cain's punch, Cain on the other hand was sent reeling.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And yet that's what we see him doing... avoiding Cain's finishing strike and trying to make the most of the no-forcefield situation.

He doesn't deny Cain's words and is impressed by his stamina, confirming that Juggernaut wasn't bullshitting him (and us, the readers) earlier.

He didn't overpower him. Get that shit out of here.

No grappling, no strength testing, just a good combo AFTER realizing the danger and needing to resort to dodging.

And he still ****ed everything up. Congrats, I guess...?

Or, Cain was unable to avoid being nearly KO'd, because Thor's first attack was great enough to stun him. The Hulk is actually more massive than the Juggernaut according to height and weight. Why can't we use that excuse when Thor has fought him? Thor is smaller than the Hulk as well. Thor's punches simply affected Cain to the point that he was unable to defend himself. But you're so convinced that Cain is actually stronger, what was his best lifting feat? Why did it take years for him to dig himself out of that temple collapse?

lawest9

Originally posted by Booya_69
I think he has better h2h fighting ability, he's faster, some cases has better durability. But stronger? How so? I don't believe that Herc is quite as intelligent as Thor as well.

abhilegend

Originally posted by carver9
I guess you can remove Thanos or Hulk then.
Yeah, that's what it is, eh?

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Stoic
Or, Cain was unable to avoid being nearly KO'd, because Thor's first attack was great enough to stun him.

Wrong.

As we clearly see Cain shrugging off the first attack, retaliating and forcing Thor to take evasive action.

Strength and durability are two different stats in comics, even if Thor knocked Cain the f*ck out (he didn't), it wouldn't prove he was actually stronger than him.

If they had actually grappled, it would have been a different story.

So, you proved nothing here.

cdtm

When he's right, he's right.

I posted the scans, Cain bull rushes Thor after the first hit.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGAUpJ5jBs/VmTigWFRj5I/AAAAAAAAvgk/gmYVrS3EDL4/s1600/thor429_15.jpg

Spider-Man did this to Rhino:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/16/e2/1116e2a5a768016cf074f9560214f63e.jpg

Does that make Spidey stronger than Rhino?

DarkSaint85

Stoic

Juggy locked hands and was actually aided by the enchantment that boosts his toughness well beyond his own strength level.

Originally posted by cdtm
When he's right, he's right.

I posted the scans, Cain bull rushes Thor after the first hit.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGAUpJ5jBs/VmTigWFRj5I/AAAAAAAAvgk/gmYVrS3EDL4/s1600/thor429_15.jpg

Spider-Man did this to Rhino:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/16/e2/1116e2a5a768016cf074f9560214f63e.jpg

Does that make Spidey stronger than Rhino?

Ahhh, I see that you left out the scans of him hitting Thor while was on the ground. Convenient.

Stoic

Here it is again.

Originally posted by cdtm
Stilt's right, Thor beat on Juggernaut a little but failed to KO him.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lOGAUpJ5jBs/VmTigWFRj5I/AAAAAAAAvgk/gmYVrS3EDL4/s1600/thor429_15.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EG59hQXPV9g/VmTikOYfwbI/AAAAAAAAvgs/JhVPTwXotwM/s1600/thor429_16.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cxs-IqgoUR0/VmTinuSkhVI/AAAAAAAAvg0/PTYDfTgIpSc/s1600/thor429_17.gif

The way I see it, this is a feat for Juggernaut. He just loses his enchantment, yet fights on and holds his own. Odds are that last punch wouldn't have KO'd him even without the force field.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Stoic
Juggy locked hands and was actually aided by the enchantment that boosts his toughness well beyond his own strength level.

Ahhh, I see that you left out the scans of him hitting Thor while was on the ground. Convenient.

But toughness is separate from strength in comics. Notably in characters like Brit, for example.

So whilst Juggy was being blessed by Cytorrak in the WWH example, his durability doesn't aid in say, pushing against the force that WWH is outputting.

Put it like this. If I put metal strips on top of my knuckles..... that increases my durability, yes?

Doesn't help when I try to push against a car. Putting body armour on won't help me. That car is still going to push me around.

Stoic

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wrong.

As we clearly see Cain shrugging off the first attack, retaliating and forcing Thor to take evasive action.

Strength and durability are two different stats in comics, even if Thor knocked Cain the f*ck out (he didn't), it wouldn't prove he was actually stronger than him.

If they had actually grappled, it would have been a different story.

So, you proved nothing here.

Lifting feats? What is his greatest lifting feat? I asked you this already, and you told me that Thor was an acrobatic Kung Fu master like Batman, while refusing to acknowledge Thor's strength. What about when Thor fought the Hulk? You refused to answer that as well. Warpath vs Cain? Colossus vs Cain? Both are well below Thor's strength level. But yeah Thor is now an acrobatic Kung Fu master.

DarkSaint85

Juggy doesn't have lifting feats, there I have said it.

Stoic

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But toughness is separate from strength in comics. Notably in characters like Brit, for example.

So whilst Juggy was being blessed by Cytorrak in the WWH example, his durability doesn't aid in say, pushing against the force that WWH is outputting.

Put it like this. If I put metal strips on top of my knuckles..... that increases my durability, yes?

Doesn't help when I try to push against a car. Putting body armour on won't help me. That car is still going to push me around.

I never said that Cain wasn't strong, just that without the added toughness we actually saw that he wasn't as strong as he appeared to be. If you made a copy of him, took away the toughness enchantment from one of them, the one with the enchantment would crush the one without it. Or do you want to ignore that fact as well?

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Stoic
Ahhh, I see that you left out the scans of him hitting Thor while was on the ground. Convenient.

Thor was on the ground, because he got floored from a single punch.

Originally posted by Stoic
Juggy locked hands

They didn't lock hands with each other.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Stoic
I never said that Cain wasn't strong, just that without the added toughness we actually saw that he wasn't as strong as he appeared to be. If you made a copy of him, took away the toughness enchantment from one of them, the one with the enchantment would crush the one without it. Or do you want to ignore that fact as well?

But that is not quite the same argument.

To use your argument, if you put these two clones into an armwrestle against each other, they would tie.

If you gave them both items to lift, they would tie.

Even Thor acknowledges Juggy is easily his equal - note his words, he does not argue against Cain's words, but says his failure is due to his lack of worthiness (as opposed to saying 'you are not my equal').

https://i.postimg.cc/prsZ9NSw/zX3jb7e.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Thor was on the ground, because he got floored from a single punch.

They didn't lock hands with each other.
We're talking about WWH/Juggy.

https://i.postimg.cc/pTxYqXMN/3026721-wwhulkx-men3-16.jpg

Klaw

Originally posted by cdtm
Spider-Man did this to Rhino:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/16/e2/1116e2a5a768016cf074f9560214f63e.jpg

Does that make Spidey stronger than Rhino?

No.

But Spider-Man being stronger than Rhino is an argument I can see someone making with some convincing.

DarkSaint85

https://imgur.com/a/oI4kz

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We're talking about WWH/Juggy.

https://i.postimg.cc/pTxYqXMN/3026721-wwhulkx-men3-16.jpg

Ah, yes.

Thought he was responding to me or cdtm, for some reason. But no, that part is right below your post.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
One handed, like Stoic said? stick out tongue

https://imgur.com/a/oI4kz

Merely used Grundy's own momentum against him here - but it sure was a great feat nonetheless.

Streets do have their fair share of insane one-handed feats, though.

Originally posted by Klaw
No.

But Spider-Man being stronger than Rhino is an argument I can see someone making with some convincing.

Same with Juggs/Thor, but the story made it clear Cain is at least Thor's equal in strength, so it's kinda ridiculous to argue he's not using the evidence from the same book...

Stoic

I have to work. I'm hoping that you can understand why I've taken the stance that I have. Cain's strength level is below the strongest because of the reasons that I've already stated. Temple, Warpath, Colossus, Ultraverse showings, Toughness enchantment. Thor has never been portrayed as an acrobatic Kung Fu master in the same light as Batman has. The Hulk is actually larger than Cain based on weight and height. We've seen the Hulk battle Thor, and his size wasn't an issue.

StiltmanFTW

Well, as you can see, you have failed to convince anyone here and that was a terrible example/strategy to use.

You were just too stubborn to admit that.

Smurph

Originally posted by Stoic
No upper strength limit. Thor overpowered him when he lost the unstoppable enchantment. But yeah, let's willfully ignore that the opinions of the editorial team hold very little weight here. Same reason why Daredevil is stronger than Rhino

https://i.ibb.co/jRW3hKF/Daredevil-020-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/XWbyQGN/Daredevil-020-018.jpg

cdtm

Originally posted by Smurph
Same reason why Daredevil is stronger than Rhino

https://i.ibb.co/jRW3hKF/Daredevil-020-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/XWbyQGN/Daredevil-020-018.jpg

Good scans, good example.

See, I'm giving someone credit for making a good contribution. *Skoofs at snobs*

StiltmanFTW

Ben Reilly knew Kaine was significantly stronger than him, yet he believed a quick series of attacks would be effective in beating him.

And so on, and so on. We could list such examples for a whole week and we still wouldn't be done.

Stoic

Thor claimed that Cain rivaled his strength level. That's a far cry from Spider Man's strength level in comparison to the Rhino's, who is roughly 7 to 8 times stronger than he is.

Stoic

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Well, as you can see, you have failed to convince anyone here and that was a terrible example/strategy to use.

You were just too stubborn to admit that.

It took him years to dig himself out from that ancient temple. Blue Marvel, the one that you claimed was the weakest, effortlessly stopped a state sized meteor. Effortlessly picked up a pyramid. You have yet to give one example of Cain's lifting feats, his harrowing battle with a teen Colossus, and his fight against Warpath who you claimed was weaker than Sabretooth. Yeah, and I'm stubborn.

Smurph

Originally posted by Stoic
Thor claimed that Cain rivaled his strength level. That's a far cry from Spider Man's strength level in comparison to the Rhino's, who is roughly 7 to 8 times stronger than he is. So are they rivals in strength or does Thor overpower Juggernaut

h1a8

Originally posted by Stoic
It took him years to dig himself out from that ancient temple. Blue Marvel, the one that you claimed was the weakest, effortlessly stopped a state sized meteor. Effortlessly picked up a pyramid. You have yet to give one example of Cain's lifting feats, his harrowing battle with a teen Colossus, and his fight against Warpath who you claimed was weaker than Sabretooth. Yeah, and I'm stubborn. Cherry pick low feats for one and high feats for another is really trolling.

Thanos has no lifting feats but we know he is significantly stronger than Thor and Hercules.

But I do agree that BM is stronger than Cain.

Psychotron

The idea that you can base strength levels on who beat who in a fight is ridiculous. The world's best Strongmen and Powerlifters would get annihilated in a fight by a skilled boxer or MMA fighter. That doesn't mean the fighters are physically stronger than the lifters. Fighting is multifaceted. You need speed, skill and stamina in addition to strength. Also, punching power isn't just about strength. Mike Tyson is one of the hardest hitting boxers in history and Holyfield overpowered him in the clinches. Diontay Wilder is the hardest hitting boxer right now and he was absolutely dominated and literally brought to his knees in the clinches by the bigger and stronger Tyson Fury.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Stoic
Thor claimed that Cain rivaled his strength level. That's a far cry from Spider Man's strength level in comparison to the Rhino's, who is roughly 7 to 8 times stronger than he is.

And Cain claimed that he was 'easily' Thor's strength equal, and Thor didn't disagree.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Psychotron
The idea that you can base strength levels on who beat who in a fight is ridiculous. The world's best Strongmen and Powerlifters would get annihilated in a fight by a skilled boxer or MMA fighter. That doesn't mean the fighters are physically stronger than the lifters. Fighting is multifaceted. You need speed, skill and stamina in addition to strength. Also, punching power isn't just about strength. Mike Tyson is one of the hardest hitting boxers in history and Holyfield overpowered him in the clinches. Diontay Wilder is the hardest hitting boxer right now and he was absolutely dominated and literally brought to his knees in the clinches by the bigger and stronger Tyson Fury.

With comics, though, it's a bit different.

Batman has way more lifting feats than, say, Doomsday. All DD has, are fighting feats.

Psychotron

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With comics, though, it's a bit different.

Batman has way more lifting feats than, say, Doomsday. All DD has, are fighting feats.

Maybe, but while Cain doesn't have lifting feats, he does have the feat of locking up with and overpowering Hulk at least twice. War Hulk an WWH respectively. That's a feat of brute strength. And yes, he has his unstoppability enchantment, but he needed to first overcome Hulk's strength to build forward momentum.

cdtm

Originally posted by Psychotron
Maybe, but while Cain doesn't have lifting feats, he does have the feat of locking up with and overpowering Hulk at least twice. War Hulk an WWH respectively. That's a feat of brute strength. And yes, he has his unstoppability enchantment, but he needed to first overcome Hulk's strength to build forward momentum.

By that standard, Doomsday locked up with Superman and Martian Manhunter, clearly overpowering the latter.

Psychotron

Originally posted by cdtm
By that standard, Doomsday locked up with Superman and Martian Manhunter, clearly overpowering the latter.

Okay? Doomsday being > standard versions of Superman and MM is pretty universally agreed upon, is it not?

cdtm

Originally posted by Psychotron
Okay? Doomsday being > standard versions of Superman and MM is pretty universally agreed upon, is it not?

Was replying to the DD only having fighting feats comment, and your apparent agreement by omission while citing Cain's lockup feat.

So pointed out DD has similar feats.

Stoic

Originally posted by Smurph
So are they rivals in strength or does Thor overpower Juggernaut

Thor was able to take Cain's hit and rise. Cain could not do the same.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Maybe, but while Cain doesn't have lifting feats, he does have the feat of locking up with and overpowering Hulk at least twice. War Hulk an WWH respectively. That's a feat of brute strength. And yes, he has his unstoppability enchantment, but he needed to first overcome Hulk's strength to build forward momentum.

That wasn't pure strength, it was aided as alway by his enchantment. There is a difference. The entire time that the Hulk appeared during the WW Hulk arc was him drastically holding back. Cain never overpowered him. There are at least a couple of times that we clearly see Cain's upper limit. I've mentioned them.

Originally posted by h1a8
Cherry pick low feats for one and high feats for another is really trolling.

Thanos has no lifting feats but we know he is significantly stronger than Thor and Hercules.

But I do agree that BM is stronger than Cain.

Cherry picking? I cited Cain's limitations that were put on panel to give the reader a clear idea of his strength level. This does not make him a weakling. However, it does place him among the weakest of the characters within this thread topic.

8swords

Originally posted by Smurph
Same reason why Daredevil is stronger than Rhino

https://i.ibb.co/jRW3hKF/Daredevil-020-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/XWbyQGN/Daredevil-020-018.jpg

first time seeing this, but how tf did DD do that? he was in the air while rhino was charging? he should've beed ragdolled by the centrifugal force of him holding rhino that way.

Stoic

Originally posted by 8swords
first time seeing this, but how tf did DD do that? he was in the air while rhino was charging? he should've beed ragdolled by the centrifugal force of him holding rhino that way.

The problem with that view is that the Rhino is over one hundred times stronger that Matt, while Cain isn't in comparison to Thor. Nor is Thor the acrobatic Kung Fu master that is Daredevil, Batman, or Black Panther is.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Stoic
The problem with that view is that the Rhino is over one hundred times stronger that Matt, while Cain isn't in comparison to Thor. Nor is Thor the acrobatic Kung Fu master that is Daredevil, Batman, or Black Panther is.

The view is that weaker characters can punch out stronger characters all the time in comics.

Colossus has done it to Hulk, for example. Colossus, who isn't an acrobatic Kung Fu master

Psychotron

Originally posted by Stoic
That wasn't pure strength, it was aided as alway by his enchantment. There is a difference. The entire time that the Hulk appeared during the WW Hulk arc was him drastically holding back. Cain never overpowered him. There are at least a couple of times that we clearly see Cain's upper limit. I've mentioned them.
.

No, it wasn't aided by his enchantment. When you lock up with someone you have to first overpower them to get any kind of forward momentum going. Juggernaut's enchantment requires forward momentum to work. We can see that Juggernaut was beggining to push Hulk back because of the trail of Hulk's feet on the ground. Juggernaut also says they've done this before and he won, which Hulk doesn't deny. And yes, WWH isn't Green Scar at his absolute strongest, but he's still at least as strong as Thor.

DarkSaint85

Plus, drastically holding back or no, he was still angrier than he had ever been. So any preior Hulk incarnations, he was stronger. They literally spelled it out:

https://i.imgur.com/CooakNO.jpg

Holding back his punches, doesn't mean he's holding back his speed or durability, and if he could, he would use his strength to end fights quickly.

As seen with She-Hulk:
https://i.imgur.com/RBT1hlo.jpg

Colossus:
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/hulk16.jpg

Talbot:
https://i.imgur.com/9yWXzg4.jpeg

And Cain, lol:
https://i.imgur.com/k0bTjPT.jpg

He wasn't holding back, when trying to end fights quickly.

Yet, when Cain was powered back up by Cytorrak - WWH was unable to put hum down.

His 'holding back', was to protect the little people.
https://i.postimg.cc/pLbL2SZs/WWHStriking-Power13-When-Titans-Collide1.jpg

Doesn't mean we simply extrapolate linearly and say, oh, every time Logan slashed him, it was him holding back, or when Strong Guy was dancing around him, he was holding back etc etc....

abhilegend

Originally posted by Stoic
I answered the wrong quote, in my last post. That was intended foe Psychotron.

Simon rivals Thor's strength level as well even though he isn't as strong as Thor. However, he is a helluva lot closer to Thor's strength level than Daredevil is to the Rhino's. Using the Rhino as an example is a bad move. Marvel uses him as a jobber to make weaker characters look great. Bad example.

Once again with feeling, Cain was trapped beneath an ancient temple that took him years to dig out of, while these other guys have feats that suggest that they could move continents. I'm simply using that which was given. Without his unstoppable enchantment, Cain's strength level dramatically fell.
Rogue with Wonder Man's power couldn't even budge Cain lol

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Stoic
He held back the entire time. The stronger he becomes the more durable he became, and the faster his healing factor worked. Stop trying to redefine the character.

So you're going to ignore the fact that the Hulk could've ramped up enough to use Cain like a basketball now? The Hulk held back the entire time because he was only there for Xavier. He wasn't there to punt Cain into deep space, or kill the dozens of Mutants standing between him and Xavier. Strictly arguing plot in a forum setting doesn't work 100%, because you'll unintentionally leave out a few things like to full capacity rule. The Hulk showed how much he held back while he was still on Earth per writers intent.

Ok.

So I can take Savage Hulk's best ever healing feats, and say WWH's will be even faster than that?

Plus, you seem to ignore that WWH certainly didn't seem to hold back against She Hulk, Colossus, Talbot and Cain himself. Yet was unable to put Juggy down later. We saw he was absolutely fine with one shottimg She Hulk - his own cousin - why not one shot Juggy? Simple Q.

He was ok with crippling Colossus - why not cripple Juggy? Absolutely fine with smashing depowered Cain's face in, why not full powered?

So if anyone actually causes harm that lasts longer than the damage Savage suffered, they're that Uber?

Where does this stop? Can I take Savage's best speed feats, and say WWH was faster? So Strong Guy was just that much faster, then say, Spiderman, or Jack of Hearts?

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus, drastically holding back or no, he was still angrier than he had ever been. So any preior Hulk incarnations, he was stronger. They literally spelled it out:

https://i.imgur.com/CooakNO.jpg

Holding back his punches, doesn't mean he's holding back his speed or durability, and if he could, he would use his strength to end fights quickly.

As seen with She-Hulk:
https://i.imgur.com/RBT1hlo.jpg

Colossus:
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/hulk16.jpg

Talbot:
https://i.imgur.com/9yWXzg4.jpeg

And Cain, lol:
https://i.imgur.com/k0bTjPT.jpg

He wasn't holding back, when trying to end fights quickly.

Yet, when Cain was powered back up by Cytorrak - WWH was unable to put hum down.

His 'holding back', was to protect the little people.
https://i.postimg.cc/pLbL2SZs/WWHStriking-Power13-When-Titans-Collide1.jpg

Doesn't mean we simply extrapolate linearly and say, oh, every time Logan slashed him, it was him holding back, or when Strong Guy was dancing around him, he was holding back etc etc....

Mister Gideon.

Not Talbot.

That's a carver level error, forum could've gone 404.

carver9

Even though he was stronger than ever, his intentions were never to kill his opponent. Him one punching people, bfring them, doesn't mean he was going all out. It was outright said on panel that he was holding back the entire time.

DarkSaint85

Not the argument, Carvy.

The point is that he was unable to put Juggy down when Cytorrak gave him his power back. Hulk was perfectly capable of one punching when he needed to, yet couldn't do it to Cain.

Mysterious!

Sin I AM

I always took it as he couldn't beat him so he did the next best thing and bfred him.

carver9

Anyone thinking Juggernaut being easily beatable is crazy. Then, this was him fully restored after YEARS of not being at full power on panel. Usually characters have their best showings in situations like that. Hulk not one punching him shows how powerful a full powered Juggernaut is but it in no way make them equals. Even after Juggernauts appearance, Hulk was still considered the most powerful being on the planet that can not be stopped. Hulk is a FAR more threatening force than Juggernaut. Even the Xmen acknowledge Hulk as the most powerful being on Earth and yes, they've ran into Juggernaut.

Let's solidfy this, a full powered Juggernaut against Onslaught...

https://ibb.co/LxvSYTy
https://ibb.co/xGY1bXf

Hulk vs an amplified Onslaught that had the power of an abstract, the power of a being that was said to be equal to the Phoenix Force, that also had the power topped with the same Onslaught that Jugs fought. Onslaught and Hulk fight nearly destroyed Earth (a Hulk that ISNT holding back) and it was said on panel that Hulk punched Onslaught so hard it knocked the reality warping powers out of him. Crazy thing is, WWH was still reference as being the most powerful Hulk, by far. Hulk should not be mentioned here.

https://ibb.co/WztgnPD
https://ibb.co/WzZX9s6