who is the best magic user in DC?

beatboks

I think we need a better explanation of what you mean by "best:.

On the one hand there's power level, on the other there is adeptness, and then there is also potential. For example we have someone like Arion who's power when compared to someone like Fate is substantially lower yet he competes on the same level and battles characters in that tier. He uses and older form or magic and has a more driven approach. Most DC mystics don't push the envelope because of the cost, Arion often does which frequently leaves him depowered. Then you have the like of Constantine who's direct access to power is vastly less than even Arion but he also competes on the same level.

In terms of best magic user when you consider their applocation of knowledge of magic and the creative way they use it

1. Constantine
2. Arion/ Dr Occult
4. Nabu /Mordru

Constantine, Arion and Occult wouldn't even be a consideration in power level.

In terms of knowledge of magic
1. Phantom Stranger
2. Nabu
3. Calcula (Arion's father)
4. Mordru

In terms of power (excluding divinities that aren't just magic)
1. MXY
2. Spectre
3. Nabu/ Mordru/ Phantom Stranger
6. Timothy Hunter.

Apologies if I've over thought the topic

Oneiros

Originally posted by beatboks
.
I think we need a better explanation of what you mean by "best:.

On the one hand there's power level, on the other there is adeptness, and then there is also potential. For example we have someone like Arion who's power when compared to someone like Fate is substantially lower yet he competes on the same level and battles characters in that tier. He uses and older form or magic and has a more driven approach. Most DC mystics don't push the envelope because of the cost, Arion often does which frequently leaves him depowered. Then you have the like of Constantine who's direct access to power is vastly less than even Arion but he also competes on the same level.

In terms of best magic user when you consider their applocation of knowledge of magic and the creative way they use it

1. Constantine
2. Arion/ Dr Occult
4. Nabu /Mordru

Constantine, Arion and Occult wouldn't even be a consideration in power level.

In terms of knowledge of magic
1. Phantom Stranger
2. Nabu
3. Calcula (Arion's father)
4. Mordru

In terms of power (excluding divinities that aren't just magic)
1. MXY
2. Spectre
3. Nabu/ Mordru/ Phantom Stranger
6. Timothy Hunter.

Apologies if I've over thought the topic

Bentley

And then there is the fact they'd all fall to Batman with prep

beatboks

Originally posted by Bentley
And then there is the fact they'd all fall to Batman with prep

Is this prep one sided?

I mean with prep Constantine would beat Batman.

I think Arion would also. For one thing he could use artefacts he has access to to preview the Batlle and know what he was going to face. When he appeared in Superman he was judging Supes for things he hadn't done yet.

Occult also has that nifty ability to step outside time and watch things to know intimate details he shouldn't be aware of.

I dont see how Batman beats someone who if they have equal prep to him can know what he'll do in advance and have countered his moves before he makes them.

This would be PIS because it requires them to just not use abilities we've seen then use when in character to allow Batman to win.

Even a depowered Arion (with no interest magic left and relying on his knowledge of magic and tricks) still had enough clarevoyance to perceive an arrow fired at his back and catch it. Still had enough mystic senses to sword fight blind folded and dodge attacks. When he wasn't depowered (because he'd used too much power) he couldbsense threats that hadn't yet entered earth's orbit.

beatboks

That should have said innate magic not interest.

Oneiros

Originally posted by beatboks
I think we need a better explanation of what you mean by "best:.

firstly,thank for your reply.
but i have to say i am not agree with you entirely.

For most magic users in DC(except a few really talented ones),power means knowledge and experience.

Many powerful magic users like spectre and lucifer also has a wealth of knowledge about the magic,even thongh they donnot get chances to show them.
In fact,they are so powerful that editors cannot find a properly way to show their power,for editors can only describe their battle simply(refer to the spectre in coie)
you can see someone who has strong magic power also has many others capabilities,it may be a expression that they use their magic power flexibly and creatively

At last,timothy killed almost all beings and put an end to the creation.I think his tier should be higher than nabu/PS.

In addition,The spectre said he is an aspect of god in<Batman 1940> issue 541.
the LOGOZ is the spectre's direct channel to god.may be he can be put on a higher tier,too

@beatboks

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by beatboks

I dont see how Batman beats someone who if they have equal prep to him can know what he'll do in advance and have countered his moves before he makes them.

Because that assumes they are able to counter it. Prep time doesn't mean that they can interact with their opponent beforehand.

As an example, say, if Bats used his prep to get the Spear of Destiny and relearn his spells from Zatanna to block magic...then the fight starts, with Arion AND his artefacts are rendered depowered, what then?

Or, since Batman has hidden himself from the Spectre and Zauriel before, using stealth, that assumes Arion's artefacts can even see what Bats - the most paranoid of all - is up to. Two scenarios.

Or third, you talk about him being able to sense threats that hadn't entered Earth's orbit when he wasn't depowered. What if Bats wasn't even on Earth? Doing prep in the Phantom Zone, or on New Genesis etc?

Then there is the time Superman defeated him and stripped him of his artefacts.

MrMind

lucifer morningstar

deft

Originally posted by MrMind
lucifer morningstar

cdtm

The Aquarian.

beatboks

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because that assumes they are able to counter it. Prep time doesn't mean that they can interact with their opponent beforehand.

As an example, say, if Bats used his prep to get the Spear of Destiny and relearn his spells from Zatanna to block magic...then the fight starts, with Arion AND his artefacts are rendered depowered, what then?

Or, since Batman has hidden himself from the Spectre and Zauriel before, using stealth, that assumes Arion's artefacts can even see what Bats - the most paranoid of all - is up to. Two scenarios.

Or third, you talk about him being able to sense threats that hadn't entered Earth's orbit when he wasn't depowered. What if Bats wasn't even on Earth? Doing prep in the Phantom Zone, or on New Genesis etc?

Then there is the time Superman defeated him and stripped him of his artefacts.

In Arion's pre crisis run he was depowered for almost 50% of the series. He was still.

1. A master hand to hand combatant who won against trained warriors
2. A master swordsman who beat several of the best in Atlantis and matched THE best ( who stated he was almost master level on his third lesson)
3. Was able to sense and react as I stated above, literally catching an arrow fired at his back because he sensed it.
4. Able to work minor spells just from knowledge.

Also you don't have to interact with someone in prep to be able to deal with their prep. In his prep he sees courtesy of a crystal ball (like he used in the Superman story I referenced) Bats gets the spear of Destiny. So he gets the ring of life. The talisman that the Presence gave Spectre so he could beat Zorr, Oom and Kalak. Not to mention that the spear doesn't do what you said Bats would do with it. The spear has allowed Hitler to control beings of power who entered his area of power. It has been used to hurt Spectre several times and bind him once. It has been used to Rebirth Cain innthe body of Vandal Savage, and a few other things but it isn't capable of anything like what your suggesting. Frankly Dr Occult's disk or the ring of life are more along that vein.

beatboks

Originally posted by Oneiros
firstly,thank for your reply.
but i have to say i am not agree with you entirely.

For most magic users in DC(except a few really talented ones),power means knowledge and experience.

Many powerful magic users like spectre and lucifer also has a wealth of knowledge about the magic,even thongh they donnot get chances to show them.
In fact,they are so powerful that editors cannot find a properly way to show their power,for editors can only describe their battle simply(refer to the spectre in coie)
you can see someone who has strong magic power also has many others capabilities,it may be a expression that they use their magic power flexibly and creatively

At last,timothy killed almost all beings and put an end to the creation.I think his tier should be higher than nabu/PS.

In addition,The spectre said he is an aspect of god in<Batman 1940> issue 541.
the LOGOZ is the spectre's direct channel to god.may be he can be put on a higher tier,too

@beatboks

I'm sorry but your just wrong. The Spectre isn't very knowledgeable in magic at all. There are many things about magic that he doesn't know. There are times when someone has referred to him saying that something wasn't the case and Phantom Stranger correcting them and saying he's a young spirit. He'll DOV is a perfect example Spectre didn't even know that he was absorbing the magic of the places he thought he was destroying. He didn't know magic couldn't be destroyed (Nabu was a schooling him in such). In his solo series he lacks knowledge of how his power works and its limitations and this lack allows Eclipso to separate his host from him and weaken him. There are dozens of stories showing how lacking his knowledge of magic is. His first four battles with Zor state it over and over.

cdtm

Originally posted by beatboks
I think we need a better explanation of what you mean by "best:.

On the one hand there's power level, on the other there is adeptness, and then there is also potential. For example we have someone like Arion who's power when compared to someone like Fate is substantially lower yet he competes on the same level and battles characters in that tier. He uses and older form or magic and has a more driven approach. Most DC mystics don't push the envelope because of the cost, Arion often does which frequently leaves him depowered. Then you have the like of Constantine who's direct access to power is vastly less than even Arion but he also competes on the same level.

In terms of best magic user when you consider their applocation of knowledge of magic and the creative way they use it

1. Constantine
2. Arion/ Dr Occult
4. Nabu /Mordru

Constantine, Arion and Occult wouldn't even be a consideration in power level.

In terms of knowledge of magic
1. Phantom Stranger
2. Nabu
3. Calcula (Arion's father)
4. Mordru

In terms of power (excluding divinities that aren't just magic)
1. MXY
2. Spectre
3. Nabu/ Mordru/ Phantom Stranger
6. Timothy Hunter.

Apologies if I've over thought the topic

What about Adam Destine's genie?

Considering she granted immunity to literally everything.

Smurph

Originally posted by beatboks

Occult also has that nifty ability to step outside time and watch things to know intimate details he shouldn't be aware of.
perv

Smurph

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Points 1 to 4 are like , Batman's bread and butter.

What do you mean it can't do what I'm suggesting? What do you think I am suggesting, lol. Imagine the embarrassment if Batman beat Arion with magic only to have Arion beat Batman with his fists

Robtard

I'd go with Shazam (Wizard). Specture, or Doctor Fate/Nabu

Mxyzptlk isn't really magic, right?

beatboks

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Points 1 to 4 are like , Batman's bread and butter.

What do you mean it can't do what I'm suggesting? What do you think I am suggesting, lol.

You proposed that he used the spear to relearn magic, that isn't something you can do with the spear.

A depowered Arion has bested Chaon. Chaon was the ONLY lord of Chaos at the time and with his sister was stated to be the power of creation. If either of them destroyed the other all creation would be erased. He defeated gods while "Depowered". But sure Batman beating a guy who could fight on that level when devoid of power is anything but PIS.

It's literally what makes characters like him and Constantine so interesting. So unless Batman gets prep and Arion doesn't (one sided prep like I asked) it doesn't fly. Batman wouldn't be hiding from any mystic if said mystic had prep.

beatboks

Arion is probably in my too 20 favorite comic characters yes. I've only seen one other user on another forum who's as into the character as I am.

My top 20
1. Dark Nebula (my avitar, Cyclone comics)
2. Alan Scot
3. Hellstrom
4. Black hood (MLJ/Archie)
5. Comet (MLJ/Archie)
6. Dr Fate
7. Devil Slayer
8. Starman (Ted Knight and his son)
9. Daredevil
10. Southern Cross (Cyclone comics)
11. Longshot
12. The shadow (dark horse)
13. Dr Occult
14. Lancelot Strong/Shield III (MLJ)
15. Arion
16. Darkling (MLJ)
17. Ironfist
18. Capt Comet
19. The Phantom (Frew Publications)
20. Johnny Quick

Arion hasn't had a solo title since the 80s with a mini innthe 90s so he isn't that popular I'll grant you. Still a great character.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by beatboks
You proposed that he used the spear to relearn magic, that isn't something you can do with the spear.

A depowered Arion has bested Chaon. Chaon was the ONLY lord of Chaos at the time and with his sister was stated to be the power of creation. If either of them destroyed the other all creation would be erased. He defeated gods while "Depowered". But sure Batman beating a guy who could fight on that level when devoid of power is anything but PIS.

It's literally what makes characters like him and Constantine so interesting. So unless Batman gets prep and Arion doesn't (one sided prep like I asked) it doesn't fly. Batman wouldn't be hiding from any mystic if said mystic had prep.

No. That was not what I proposed.

beatboks

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No. That was not what I proposed.

Yeah it kinda is

So let's say in prep Arion sees this in a crystal ball or with his spell of eye of ra and he gets the ring of life that gives him power over all things living and dead. Spear becomes useless and no spell done is capable of dealing with the power of the ring given that on the finger of a random hoodlum even Spectre was powerless against it.

All of that excludes the fact that the spear has been put in the heart of the sun and a dimensional protected place that requires the Sentinels of magic (a group of high powered mages) to access (depending on the time this is taking place)

Even if Bruce did get the Spear, the fact that your choosing to use spells to depower Arion makes getting the Spear a complete waste of time. The Spear allows you to control powerful mystics, cut off Arions power and the Spear is only as useful as a normal Spear. In Arions solo run he lost his magic power 5 times in 35 issues. He spent the next 4 or so issues facing threats with only his knowledge of magic then an issue or two of him re-ataining magic power.

First he finds crystals of his father's that contain an essence of his father's magic energy that he can use to do magic.

Then he gets the weaver to reconnect him to the many coloured threads that are the source of ancient magic ( a source that is stated many times to be a different magic than is used in the modern age so there isn't even a guarantee that spells Zatanna uses would do what you claim to him)

Another time he enters his mother's realm of the dark world and realised his link to it via his mother can power him.

Another time he finds his father's citadel in the dark realm which is the source of his power and uses it to regain magic

There is another time when another God makes the weaver again reconnect him.

Even after all of this he starts out the 90s immoral Arion again depowered with no magic but just an old man who has lived for centuries and again has to regain power to fight his brother.

So your big prep for Batman vs Arion is to depower a guy who spent about 26 issues out of 39 solo appearances without power still fighting guys on the level of Dr Fate, Wotan, Mordru etc and to sue a Spear that allows you to control powerful mystics which your other prep just made Arion no longer one.

Seems legit (or moronic- can't decide, either way not a very effective prep IMHO)

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by beatboks
Yeah it kinda is

So let's say in prep Arion sees this in a crystal ball or with his spell of eye of ra and he gets the ring of life that gives him power over all things living and dead. Spear becomes useless and no spell done is capable of dealing with the power of the ring given that on the finger of a random hoodlum even Spectre was powerless against it.

All of that excludes the fact that the spear has been put in the heart of the sun and a dimensional protected place that requires the Sentinels of magic (a group of high powered mages) to access (depending on the time this is taking place)

Even if Bruce did get the Spear, the fact that your choosing to use spells to depower Arion makes getting the Spear a complete waste of time. The Spear allows you to control powerful mystics, cut off Arions power and the Spear is only as useful as a normal Spear. In Arions solo run he lost his magic power 5 times in 35 issues. He spent the next 4 or so issues facing threats with only his knowledge of magic then an issue or two of him re-ataining magic power.

First he finds crystals of his father's that contain an essence of his father's magic energy that he can use to do magic.

Then he gets the weaver to reconnect him to the many coloured threads that are the source of ancient magic ( a source that is stated many times to be a different magic than is used in the modern age so there isn't even a guarantee that spells Zatanna uses would do what you claim to him)

Another time he enters his mother's realm of the dark world and realised his link to it via his mother can power him.

Another time he finds his father's citadel in the dark realm which is the source of his power and uses it to regain magic

There is another time when another God makes the weaver again reconnect him.

Even after all of this he starts out the 90s immoral Arion again depowered with no magic but just an old man who has lived for centuries and again has to regain power to fight his brother.

So your big prep for Batman vs Arion is to depower a guy who spent about 26 issues out of 39 solo appearances without power still fighting guys on the level of Dr Fate, Wotan, Mordru etc and to sue a Spear that allows you to control powerful mystics which your other prep just made Arion no longer one.

Seems legit (or moronic- can't decide, either way not a very effective prep IMHO)

No, it's not what I proposed. But ok lol.

beatboks

What else would it tumble into? He's only had that series, a backup in warlord before it, a mini series in the 90s. Half a dozen appearances in action comics in team ups with Superman (all bit 2 leaned into the solos series for background) the Powegirl mini and a few appearances in JSA, Aquaman, Blue Beetle.

That solo series from the 80s is like literally 60 to 70% of the material about him.

I dont think he rates anywhere in this thread, I'm simply using him as an example of someone who operates at a higher level than his power should allow just because of knowledge of magic. Constantine is another. So is Richard Occult. Occult has defeated hell lords in their own realm and isn't even as powerful magically as Sargon. He was able to see ways out of hell when it was closed that Zatanna, Dr Fate, Sargon (jnr) and many more powerful mystics couldn't. Occult and Faust jnr were the only mystics that wasn't casually taken down in a crossover series where demons were making a big play (can't recall the name of it but Occult absorbed a magic bullet into himself out of Superman to save his life)

With magic it's not always about power level. Over in Marvel Dr Druid and Devil Slayer have wins vs characters Dr Strange would struggle with. Magic knowledge can be as much a boon as power. Con John would kick Arion's ass every time and no way is Bruce out prepping constantine. The guy who kept a debt from a succubus and an archangel handy and was able to pull them out to best the first of the fallen for the third time. He has prep ready for things he wasnt even aware he'd need it for.

beatboks

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I didn't even know the character existed.

That's some Mungi-level obscurity.

KM and I like a lot of the same characters. And obscurity is my wheelhouse too. Couple of years ago he and I had a set to in a thread where I repped Hellstrom vs either Shaman (Alpha flight shaman) or his daughter talisman. I'm pretty sure it was Shaman, talisman would have been a harder case for me to make.

We're both mad fans of Capt Comet.

Astner

Originally posted by Robtard
Mxyzptlk isn't really magic, right?
He was depowered by the Spectre in Adventures of Superman #646, a tie-in to Day of Vengence, so it should be.

Robtard

Originally posted by Astner
He was depowered by the Spectre in Adventures of Superman #646, a tie-in to Day of Vengence, so it should be.

Ah.

But the source of his powers really isn't magic, even though it appears to be, right? It's extra-dimensional tech?

Old Man Whirly!

Tim Hunter

SithLantern93

Zatanna is pretty op and underrated. Her defeating the obscure Zor was beyond insane.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Tim Hunter

Harry Potter

Endless Mike

How about Black Alice? Because when she's around, she's the only magic user.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah.

But the source of his powers really isn't magic, even though it appears to be, right? It's extra-dimensional tech?
About Mxy's magic.....It is confusing at best. It seems DC can't decide whether his power is magic or science

For example

In Countdwon 23, Mxy's power certainly was cataloged as magic

'Her(Annataz) magic's not as powerful as yours. No one's is that I've met
https://ibb.co/BBp3hKy

However, in the same issue Mxy's powers also were defined as science in his bio pages

'Maybe I shoulda just stayed back on Zrfff, where our science is so sophisticated it looks like sorcery to you three dimensional rubes
https://ibb.co/C9VX6cM

Old Man Whirly!

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Harry Potter I said that, Tim Hunter!

mmm

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And Moderators, please don't ban him. He isn't a sock account. He is my friend who I introduced KMC to him.

Kmc needs some new blood

He needs to go.

beatboks

Originally posted by SithLantern93
Zatanna is pretty op and underrated. Her defeating the obscure Zor was beyond insane.

Zee's power level is SOOOO inconsistent.

Considering Zor's peak feats (as someone that Spectre needs an amp to defeat) her defeating him is PIS when compared to her other feats.

Back I Blue Devil early issues she stated she wasn't powerful enough to stop Nebrios and Danny had to do so. To be fair he was only able to win by getting his trident back from Nebrios. Apparently once Nebrios enchanted it the trident became a link to his dimension of power so BD was using Nebrios' realms power against him (he did also seem to come a trifle unhinged when he first got hold of the trident, sort of like its dark power was overtaking him)

Still someone that BD can beat shouldn't have been a problem for someone with Zee's peak feats.