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Ok pitting a line up of my two favorite teams vs each other.

JSA

Dr Fate

Starman

Citizen Steel

Alan Scot

Hawkman

Wildcat

Mr Terrific (Micheal Holt)

Jessie Quick

Defenders

Dr Strange

Silver Surfer

Hulk

Hellstrom

Nighthawk

Hellcat

Valyrie

Northstar.

Battle takes place in desert outside of Vegas with no bi-standers at night (so Nighthawk isn't disadvantaged and is at peak)

Who takes it and why.

Please give a breakdown of why you've decided

Which Starman(Ted Knight or the legion one etc?) and Dr.Fate( I presume is Kent Nelson, or do you mean Hector Hall)?

Dr Fate+Alan is probably unbeatable by standard teams lol

JSA stomps

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Which Starman(Ted Knight or the legion one etc?) and Dr.Fate( I presume is Kent Nelson, or do you mean Hector Hall)?

Ted Knight (or you could use his son). Wanted a cosmic power wielder to match SS.

Either Kent or Hector. Power wise not much difference, either is a decent match for Strange (much different story with any other Dr Fate)

Who's supposed to take on Scott? He steamrolls anyone who's not facing an analogue

Current Fate that's been appearing in JLD is too much. JSA wins.

Originally posted by beatboks
Ted Knight (or you could use his son). Wanted a cosmic power wielder to match SS.

Either Kent or Hector. Power wise not much difference, either is a decent match for Strange (much different story with any other Dr Fate) Unless I have missed something I never thought any of DC's Starmen was a match for Silver Surfer, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Originally posted by lawest9
Unless I have missed something I never thought any of DC's Starmen was a match for Silver Surfer, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Ted's rod uses power cosmic. He discovered an energy band that linked all celestial bodies and used it to power the rod.

With it ha can control pretty much all bandwidths of energy and force (gravity, magnetic etc). He's used it to create constructs like a GL, energy manip like Cap Atom etc, open portals to other dimensions and has created anti-matter with it to name a few. A celestial entity (called Aquarius IIRC) after absorbing the power of the rod used it to solo the JSA and JLA in one of their crossovers.

Ted has bested Ultraman, Alan Scot, with it.

In JSA Steange tales a scientist who had analysed it craved it and GLs lanterns power but not Thunderbolts 5tj dimensional energy.

Sylvester used it to best Vulkan who casually beat Alan (literally shattered his consteucts) as well as casually shattering the spells of Classic Fate and leaving him in a coma.

Jack defeated demons who were a problem for Shade.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Who's supposed to take on Scott? He steamrolls anyone who's not facing an analogue

Hellstrom. In underworld unleashed he had problems with hells minions. He has also had problems with his sons soul based power and Hellstrom has similar. If he went full Starheart Daimon could also go full darksoul/Hell lord which puts him just below Mephisto, Satannish level

Alan would destroy Hellstrom, let's not pretend otherwise.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Alan would destroy Hellstrom, let's not pretend otherwise.

I seriously doubt it.

Alan's powers rely on willpower of which he has plenty, but Hellstroms soul based powers have a means of undermining that will power.

When Alan's will is low he is more susceptible to attacks for example when Mordru influenced the helm of Nabu and gained minor control over Kent V Fate. He took out Alan with exploding wooden crates. A weakness Alan hadn't had for some time but because he was weary he believed he still did. Or there's the whole snapped neck under Guggenhiem's pen. When Alan had doubts about himself he lost an eye and wore an eye patch. when those doubts were gone he regrew the eye, just like he should have been able to casually heal his broken neck.

There are specific things Daimon can exploit vs Alan that many others don't have the ability to exploit.

We are now comparing a punk like Hellstrom to Mordru lol.

Alan would destroy Hellstrom, no if and buts.

Originally posted by abhilegend
We are now comparing a punk like Hellstrom to Mordru lol.

Alan would destroy Hellstrom, no if and buts.

No such comparison was made Mordru exploited a weakness in that particular instance and helstrom has the ability to exploit the same weakness.

And before you start I'm not talking about a weakness to wood that no longer exists, I'm talking about the weakness of Alan's willpower when his will is low he believes he has witnesses he doesn't believes he has weaknesses he doesn't anymore. Daimon with his soul manip has every chance to exploit that same weakness. With his power of divination he has the means to learn of it. With his shields and durability he can last until he can achieve these.

If Alan comes out of the gate hard he can win a solid majority yes, but Daimon can trouble him and can also win some if he leans to his higher showings. On averages Alan takes probably 6 out of 10. On high end feats it's closer to even with Alan edging it out.

Nope.

Alan has far higher feats and statements than Hellstrom ever will. Only in your imagined scenario can Hellstrom trouble Alan.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope.

Alan has far higher feats and statements than Hellstrom ever will. Only in your imagined scenario can Hellstrom trouble Alan.

It's not imagined it's consistent with the widely varies portrayals of Alan's power level and why.

For example in All Star Squadron 20 Alan stomps the crap out of Brainwave (Snr). He casually defeats him even though he has the entire JSA current membership (less Spectre who he TP made sense he was needed elsewhere) and the main team of the all stars in his brain drain machine feeding him their psychic energy amping him. Yet in the next arc only an issue or two later Ultra-Humanite in Delores Winters body is troubling Alan and with the help of his lightning powered lackey casually shatters Alan's constructs. This is the very same Ultra who under the same writer in Inf Inc in the generations saga was a perfect stalemate to the same Brainwave without amps.

Roy Thomas one of the most consistent writers and biggest stickers for continuity in either DC or Marvels history wrote Alan as able to easily defeat an amped character that was an even match for a character who had just as easily defeated him.

This wasn't an inconsistent Alan, when he beat BW he was furious and going all out with his will believing he had just seen BW kill all his friends. When he went out he became a living Hiroshima bomb and this rattled him. It was this very rattling that made his will weak when Ultra fought him (and was referenced innthe caption of said instance).

Daimons soul manipulation allows him to effect the very same type of rattling.

Alan's best feats are with him getting emotional and using the starhearts full power. Risking it taking him over. Like when his daughter, or son or wife are at risk.

Post blackest Knight when he went full starheart he stated numerous times that he had to keep control of the starheart and as such couldn't risk using its full power. This was supposed to be the reason he couldn't heal his neck when Sythe broke it. When Holt told him he could control it in the final issue pre Flashpoint and he went all out he completely spread himself

Alan lacking will either because he's tired/weary or lost faith in himself is literally the plot reason for every low show showing he has. When up against someone who has a power that can sense that weakness and another that can exploit it he can take wins

We are literally talking about my fav DC character vs my fav Marvel character. My number 2 fav (alan) vs my number 3 (right behind Avatar Dark Nebula at 1)

This is a battle I've played out in my head cannon a million times. Alan takes it most of the time in my head but only by a little and it's always hard fought

You're rambling as always. Not interested.

Controls a Detective to answer his questions against his will

https://imgur.io/a/qtWCbRW

Controls a beast

https://imgur.io/a/WSXDKud

Erases a memory

https://imgur.io/nXEhbo1

Overcomes a man's will and controls him
https://imgur.io/a/CWvIyuy


Casts a psychic out of his mind (there are numerous examples of this)

https://imgur.io/84Ju8Og

There are hundred more of him controlling demons or tainted souls but these may require the soul he's controlling to have a tainted nature that Alan doesn't and may not apply here. For example it says here a demon cannot deny one of royal hell blood

https://imgur.io/nN7csbB

So when you played out the Hellstrom vs Alan fight in your head a million times, those are the showings that made you think it was a close fight?

Alan is gay, Hellstrom's bare chest is more enough to distract him and that'd get him killed.

I think beatboks needs to take pics of him acting the fight out

Originally posted by Smurph
So when you played out the Hellstrom vs Alan fight in your head a million times, those are the showings that made you think it was a close fight?

Know, his showings vs continental level TPers like mindstar and other hell lord level characters are, I was getting ready for work and school run when I posted and only had time to skim a respect thread which only had a very few psionic showings in it, not look for the feats. I assumed if I had just mentioned feats without support they would be ignored.

For the record I don't believe it's a close fight, I said a hard fight. I think Helstrom has the ability to take some wins (I even specifically said not a majority) and the ability to occupy Alan until others of the defenders have dealt with the JSAer they have squared off against.

He can do this due to his durability and healing and being able to take punishment long enough for his soul manip to have a significant enough affect to undermine Alan's will. Or enough effect for Alan to loose control of the starheart making himba danger and adversary to his own team. His ability to damage soak and heal from it means Alan can pile on for quite a while and not finish Daimon. Add to that the shields he can create as well, teleport and time manip to avoid attacks, mystical senses to anticipate said attacks. If that takes long enough for Daimon to affect his will and undermine his power is where the question is. In my head he can do so 4 to 4.5 out of 10

Obsidian has soul manip feats on the same level as Daimon outside his battles with his father and has done as much to affect his father. Eclipso does also. It's the same ballpark as others who've taken wins from Alan bia this method.

Honestly that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Originally posted by beatboks
Know, his showings vs continental level TPers like mindstar and other hell lord level characters are, I was getting ready for work and school run when I posted and only had time to skim a respect thread which only had a very few psionic showings in it, not look for the feats. I assumed if I had just mentioned feats without support they would be ignored.

For the record I don't believe it's a close fight, I said a hard fight. I think Helstrom has the ability to take some wins (I even specifically said not a majority) and the ability to occupy Alan until others of the defenders have dealt with the JSAer they have squared off against.

He can do this due to his durability and healing and being able to take punishment long enough for his soul manip to have a significant enough affect to undermine Alan's will. Or enough effect for Alan to loose control of the starheart making himba danger and adversary to his own team. His ability to damage soak and heal from it means Alan can pile on for quite a while and not finish Daimon. Add to that the shields he can create as well, teleport and time manip to avoid attacks, mystical senses to anticipate said attacks. If that takes long enough for Daimon to affect his will and undermine his power is where the question is. In my head he can do so 4 to 4.5 out of 10

Obsidian has soul manip feats on the same level as Daimon outside his battles with his father and has done as much to affect his father. Eclipso does also. It's the same ballpark as others who've taken wins from Alan bia this method.


Obsidian shits on Hellstrom and a serious Alan literally oneshots him twice (first in JSA 10 and then in Princes of Darkness) when he was controlling entire Earth. Forget about Eclipso.

Again, your make believe fanfiction doesn't work when Hellstrom simply doesn't has feats to contend with.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Honestly that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Not really. Hellstrom isn't even a herald level character, never has been.

Also, Obsidian is, you know, his son.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. Hellstrom isn't even a herald level character, never has been.

He said that Alan was stronger and would take the majority. He just said that Daimon had a powerset that could grant him some wins due to Alan's psychology.