Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The guy in this video claims that the Hulk's feats here are the best ever in comics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W8SPAxZT4g

But is that true? Post the best feats of pure physical strength in comic books.

Rules:

1. You need to post scans. Just mentioning stuff doesn't count, because we need proof (there was that 'Lobo lifted the universe' rumor, for example)

2. No powerscaling feats. I mean no feats based on performance against other characters. 'This punch knocked back/hurt/killed this guy, who is crazy powerful so the punch is that powerful'. So just knocking out the Hulk or Superman doesn't count unless the strike also has some kind of measurable effect on something else. This is to prevent arguments about scaling different characters and such. Also, hyperbole statements like 'his/her strength is infinite' don't count. We need actual feats.

3. Any kind of physical feats are allowed: punching, kicking, lifting, throwing, thunderclapping, stomping, karate chopping, etc. It just has to be done with physical strength.

4. Amping is allowed. Captain Marvel or Black Adam using magic to amp up their punches is fine, as long as the feat comes from the actual impact of the punch. Characters who have temporary powerups are also allowed - we're looking for the best feat, not necessarily what feats are representative of a character at their typical levels.

I will submit this for my first entry: Bronze Age Superman physically destroys a pyramid that was able to survive unharmed within the Big Bang:

https://i.imgur.com/sL4aipP.jpg
https://imgur.com/1VqCjPX.jpg
https://imgur.com/msHKBLH.jpg
https://imgur.com/JvVnq81.jpg
https://imgur.com/yI0tn1C.jpg

I think this beats the Hulk's feat.

Post something that beats this, if you can.

Does this count?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Superman fights Jaxon, generating enough powers to counter the GL's energy which destroyed basically all timelines, restoring infinite timelines
https://ibb.co/PGdjW6d
https://ibb.co/tJpfd1T
https://ibb.co/VgcvfFN
https://ibb.co/9HPYZRb
https://ibb.co/MGxGv4B
https://ibb.co/94FzqYn
https://ibb.co/R76QcRr
https://ibb.co/Pjm28mt

Who can repeat in this list?

1) Barry and Wally
2) Hal and Kyle or Alan
3) Others

I'm not sure, since timeline's energy or something kind of unquantifiable

Well a lot of this stuff isn't precisely quantifiable, but just post good feats to contend for the title.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not sure why people are surprised, Prime already destroyed three separate multiverses in one punch in Death Metal 4.

https://i.postimg.cc/mPb53x0Y/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/JsPdP6L9/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zLQ21y37/image.jpg



This takes the cake

Abhi, not posting the infinite pages book?

Superman bench pressing the earths weight for five straight days while deprived of sunlight and hardly broke a sweat trumps anything Hulk has ever done.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/6uhpfj/benchpressing_the_earth_is_a_far_cry_from_being/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Originally posted by abhilegend
This takes the cake

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how 3 multiverses we're destroyed in these scans.

Changing diamond into coal. Yes, you've read that right. I've read this page five times, and I still don't understand it.

https://i.postimg.cc/GpjK4LhV/qXEMZkM.jpg

It's obviously too hi-fi for me.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Changing diamond into coal. Yes, you've read that right. I've read this page five times, and I still don't understand it.

It's obviously too hi-fi for me.
Graphite ("coal" is the thermodynamically stable phase of carbon under normal conditions (i.e. under ca. 1 atm pressure, 290 kelvin temperature). In other words, diamond would really, really like to transition to "coal" under everyday conditions -- the only thing preventing this is the exceptionally high activation energy associated with this process. Consequently, diamond is just a highly persistent, but metastable, phase of carbon. Diamond is like a river that is blocked by a dam; the water would like to get to the other side... but can't, since the activation energy for going over or through the dam is too high.

The most straight-forward way to bypass the activation energy would be to sublimate the diamond (sublimate, since carbon cannot be liquefied under normal temperatures and pressures) then allow it to deposit back to crystalline form, which would yield graphite. Superman could, of course, generate high enough temperatures to sublimate a diamond but there's one practical problem. If this is done under oxygen-containing atmosphere, the hot carbon vapor quickly converts to CO2 before it can form graphite again. Superman would need to somehow produce oxygen-free reaction conditions...

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman bench pressing the earths weight for five straight days while deprived of sunlight and hardly broke a sweat trumps anything Hulk has ever done.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/6uhpfj/benchpressing_the_earth_is_a_far_cry_from_being/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

No

Originally posted by carver9
No Yes.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This takes the cake

that's not what happened but ok

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman bench pressing the earths weight for five straight days while deprived of sunlight and hardly broke a sweat trumps anything Hulk has ever done.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/6uhpfj/benchpressing_the_earth_is_a_far_cry_from_being/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

earth mass, not weight

Originally posted by MrMind
earth mass, not weight Whatever, it's still trump anything anyone else has done.

Originally posted by lawest9
Whatever, it's still trump

https://i.ibb.co/KrC7twF/giphy-gif-cid-790b76118cc9135b470586407d7c32f7064a6ffc9576640a-rid-giphy.gif

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how 3 multiverses we're destroyed in these scans.
Those 3 shattered realities are three separate multiverses.

Originally posted by lawest9
Whatever, it's still trump anything anyone else has done.

No

Originally posted by Magnon
Graphite ("coal" is the thermodynamically stable phase of carbon under normal conditions (i.e. under ca. 1 atm pressure, 290 kelvin temperature). In other words, diamond would really, really like to transition to "coal" under everyday conditions -- the only thing preventing this is the exceptionally high activation energy associated with this process. Consequently, diamond is just a highly persistent, but metastable, phase of carbon. Diamond is like a river that is blocked by a dam; the water would like to get to the other side... but can't, since the activation energy for going over or through the dam is too high.

The most straight-forward way to bypass the activation energy would be to sublimate the diamond (sublimate, since carbon cannot be liquefied under normal temperatures and pressures) then allow it to deposit back to crystalline form, which would yield graphite. Superman could, of course, generate high enough temperatures to sublimate a diamond but there's one practical problem. If this is done under oxygen-containing atmosphere, the hot carbon vapor quickly converts to CO2 before it can form graphite again. Superman would need to somehow produce oxygen-free reaction conditions...

Graphite isn't coal. As in, I know you put coal in quotation marks, but their crystalline structure is completely different. Coal isn't pure carbon, anyway.

Originally posted by carver9
No Yes.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Those 3 shattered realities are three separate multiverses.

Well the scan said something about destroying an antenna to "undo these worlds", and then "this endless multiverse" (which I'm assuming is what was meant by "these worlds" but to me that suggests destroying one multiverse, but not directly, rather by destroying an antenna that was keeping them stable or something.

I'm just asking for more context.

No, the antenna wasn't about destroying the world. Its like posting a whole issue here, Read Dark nights death metal Trinity crisis oneshot.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This takes the cake

Lmmfao

Shut up troll

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, the antenna wasn't about destroying the world. Its like posting a whole issue here, Read Dark nights death metal Trinity crisis oneshot.

Well I looked at it, but it didn't really clarify anything. It mentioned a multiverse of 52 universes, of which 44 had been destroyed. Also the Dark Multiverse, which, IIRC, also has 52.

Read

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal/Trinity-Crisis?id=175452

And then

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal/Issue-4?id=176539

I think that I read the wrong one, then. I'll look at those when I have the time (although in the one I did read, it seems that they did my boy Alec Holland dirty...).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Graphite isn't coal. As in, I know you put coal in quotation marks, but their crystalline structure is completely different. Coal isn't pure carbon, anyway.
That's why I used quotation marks. Coal is just a generic name for certain kinds of rocks and minerals that have high carbon content, whereas graphite is a well-defined crystalline allotrope of pure carbon.

It is possible for the coalification process to yield almost pure graphite, though. It is quite rare but, for example, in China there are graphite mines.

Originally posted by Magnon
That's why I used quotation marks. Coal is just a generic name for certain kinds of rocks and minerals that have high carbon content, whereas graphite is a well-defined crystalline allotrope of pure carbon.

It is possible for the coalification process to yield almost pure graphite, though. It is quite rare but, for example, in China there are graphite mines.

I understand what coal and graphite are. And they're two very different things.

The only thing they have in common is that they're both black band have carbon in them. But it is impossible to create coal from pure diamond, just by the addition of energy - even disregarding the fancy words toy put in your original post.

You need to add water, add sulphur, add nitrogen etc. They're two completely different materials.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I understand what coal and graphite are. And they're two very different things.

The only thing they have in common is that they're both black band have carbon in them. But it is impossible to create coal from pure diamond, just by the addition of energy - even disregarding the fancy words toy put in your original post.

You need to add water, add sulphur, add nitrogen etc. They're two completely different materials.
But they are not very different things. As I said, the term coal does not refer to any specific material but to a range of carbon-rich materials at different stages of coalification. It is possible under certain conditions for this process to eventually yield mineral graphite.

Thus, depending on one's definition (there's not a universally agreed-upon one for coal), graphite mineral can indeed be said to be a type of coal. And various amorphous/glassy derivatives of it can be called coal, too. For example, wikipedia lists graphite as a type of coal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Types

Superman is therefore certainly allowed to refer to the polyaromatic carbon material he produced as coal. Although, personally, I would place the term in quotation marks (as I did earlier).

Originally posted by Magnon
Superman is therefore certainly allowed to eat my ass.

Fixed

No one is stronger than Hulk.

Hulk powers through a blast that is ripping reality apart. Durability and strength showing...

https://ibb.co/mq6Yz86
https://ibb.co/KzsHJ6F

Let's not even forget him shaking the entirety of the crossroads in his fight against the UFOS, that was proven as having infinite doors.

Originally posted by carver9
No one is stronger than Hulk. Originally posted by carver9
Hulk powers through a blast that is ripping reality apart. Durability and strength showing...

https://ibb.co/mq6Yz86
https://ibb.co/KzsHJ6F

Let's not even forget him shaking the entirety of the crossroads in his fight against the UFOS, that was proven as having infinite doors.
That's not even top 100 strength feats in comics lol.

I know. It's top 5.

Superman's greatest feat ever:

https://i.ibb.co/t43V5Wq/P00099.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5YwHG1b/P00107.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/njHc7QJ/P00108.jpg

WHOLE TWO TONS!

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk powers through a blast that is ripping reality apart. Durability and strength showing...

https://ibb.co/mq6Yz86
https://ibb.co/KzsHJ6F

Let's not even forget him shaking the entirety of the crossroads in his fight against the UFOS, that was proven as having infinite doors.

Ah, some comics I've read!

Vector is strong enough to rip holes in spacetime and repel the mass of a planet. Pushing through his blasts is a very good strength feat. But it's not universe level.

The crossroads directly connects to infinite dimensions, so that's why Hulk and Ironclad's clash there reached all of them. That doesn't make either one of them infinitely strong. (FYI I don't buy the 'lifting an infinite page book' feat being proof of infinite strength either, so I'm not being biased here).

Originally posted by carver9
I know. It's top 5.
Maybe in puny marvel universe

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Ah, some comics I've read!

Vector is strong enough to rip holes in spacetime and repel the mass of a planet. Pushing through his blasts is a very good strength feat. But it's not universe level.

The crossroads directly connects to infinite dimensions, so that's why Hulk and Ironclad's clash there reached all of them. That doesn't make either one of them infinitely strong. (FYI I don't buy the 'lifting an infinite page book' feat being proof of infinite strength either, so I'm not being biased here).
The book contained entirety of creation. Its literally the best strength feat ever not done by SBP.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Ah, some comics I've read!

Vector is strong enough to rip holes in spacetime and repel the mass of a planet. Pushing through his blasts is a very good strength feat. But it's not universe level.

The crossroads directly connects to infinite dimensions, so that's why Hulk and Ironclad's clash there reached all of them. That doesn't make either one of them infinitely strong. (FYI I don't buy the 'lifting an infinite page book' feat being proof of infinite strength either, so I'm not being biased here).

Walking through a blast that's ripping reality apart is an insane ft.

The crossroads have INFINITE doors. The Hulk and Ironclad fight was impacting all of those doors and causing catastrophic damage to the dimensions in each door. No way around this.

You both don't seem to understand the implications of infinity.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You both don't seem to understand the implications of infinity.

Crossroads is the Nexus of realitIES...

https://ibb.co/tb596gN

I've drifted to a world of limitless dimensions...

https://ibb.co/wNJzPL4

Hulk and Ironclad clash reverberates along the pathway leading from the crossroad (starting point) to an infinite number of dimensions (vibrations travels through limitless or doors) causing catastrophic damage...

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/z3850YF

Seems pretty clear to me.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You both don't seem to understand the implications of infinity.
Yeah, if a character has infinite power in the literal sense, then there basically isn't story to write about.

Pretty much like omnipotence, when the writer uses such word, 99.99999% cases just indicate said character is very powerful. However, rarely the character literally possesses unlimited powers/can literally do anything

Also, someone on reddit made a SOLID argument over the book of infinite pages which is the reason only KMC look at that ft as something solid. Here is the argument...

https://ibb.co/zrkdL2B
https://ibb.co/3YrS2jD
https://ibb.co/1XWyqVN

Here are the scans support his argument. The book of infinite pages only had one story. Also, didn't Ultraman say he read the last page (this is me asking)?

https://ibb.co/QP0CDx5
https://ibb.co/G55cvDp
https://ibb.co/JKbbTbL

There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2, Carver. So that's infinity, but also with a start and end point.

Ultraman mention he read the LAST chapter and page. He read to the END of the book.

https://ibb.co/QPNDtRT

Last means all of it. Nothing else. That's it. Either Ultraman have infinite reading and is still reading the book or the books of infinite pages isn't as big as people are trying to make it.

Originally posted by carver9
Ultraman mention he read the LAST chapter and page. He read to the END of the book.

https://ibb.co/QPNDtRT

Last means all of it. Nothing else. That's it. Either Ultraman have infinite reading and is still reading the book or the books of infinite pages isn't as big as people are trying to make it.

I literally just told you how something can be infinite and have an end point. Between the number 1, and 2, are infinite numbers.

Besides, was Ultraman right? Did everyone kneel to Mandrakk?

Btw, we've had this debate before.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=591380&pagenumber=18

You're just going to get all the arguments we've developed before.

Originally posted by carver9
Crossroads is the Nexus of realitIES...

https://ibb.co/tb596gN

I've drifted to a world of limitless dimensions...

https://ibb.co/wNJzPL4

Hulk and Ironclad clash reverberates along the pathway leading from the crossroad (starting point) to an infinite number of dimensions (vibrations travels through limitless or doors) causing catastrophic damage...

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/z3850YF

Seems pretty clear to me.

Question: Who do you think is stronger, Ironclad or the Hulk?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Question: Who do you think is stronger, Ironclad or the Hulk?

During that instance, I dont know since IC was amped. All of the UFOS were.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I literally just told you how something can be infinite and have an end point. Between the number 1, and 2, are infinite numbers.

Besides, was Ultraman right? Did everyone kneel to Mandrakk?

Btw, we've had this debate before.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=591380&pagenumber=18

You're just going to get all the arguments we've developed before.

Imagine if it was Hulk lifting infinite pages and someone said that they read until the last page. You would use it to debunk the showing, no?

Also, it was mentioned twice that the last page could be read. It was mentioned once that the book in Limbo have no weight.

Ultraman isn't the brightest of people but if he can't flip a page anymore; he's reaching for another page to turn and nothing is there, I'm sure he would know that it was the end of the book.

Darksaint... what is the Dark Dimension made out of?

What did the book contain?

Originally posted by carver9
Darksaint... what is the Dark Dimension made out of?

Weaker material than 616 material.

The book contained pages that were read until the end and was mentioned again that it could be read until the end.

Why is it made out of weaker material than 616?

Originally posted by carver9
The book contained pages that were read until the end and was mentioned again that it could be read until the end.

Why is it made out of weaker material than 616?
Not my question.

I asked you six years ago, and am still awaiting your answer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, it doesn't answer the question, lol.

What was the book, subject wise? What were its contents about? Was it just a bio of Mandrakk? Batman's boy fetish? Abhi's excuses for Superman?

Even your responses and dodges are old.

We don't go by the name of something to dictate its fts. We literally have someone saying they read the ENTIRE book to the end. If you tell me that you read the entire issue of Justice League #25, to the end, I'm not going to think you read part of the book. 🤦🏿

We wouldn't even be having this argument if this was Hulk because you would 100% use that scan as evidence.

Why is the Dark Dimension made of different matter?

So what was the book about? Simple question.

I asked six years ago. Go ahead and answer first.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what was the book about? Simple question.

I asked six years ago. Go ahead and answer first.

https://ibb.co/JKbbTbL

Also, Ultraman literally tells you what the book is about. Then they were in Limbo which was explained above in the scan.

"Here in Limbo, there is not MATERIAL things to be destroyed. Limbo is a living MEMORY...

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Originally posted by carver9
"Here in Limbo, there is not MATERIAL things to be destroyed. Limbo is a living MEMORY...

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

So what was the book about?

You're being so transparent, lol. Perhaps Goober is feeding you?

But to reiterate. The book contained every single possible story. Ultraman read to the end of one - where Mandrakk won and everyone knelt.

That doesn't mean anything. I keep telling you, there are infinite numbers between 1 and 2. That's an end point: 2. That explains exactly for you, how you can have infinity and an end.

Something that was explained 6 years ago to you

https://ibb.co/QPNDtRT

Originally posted by carver9
https://ibb.co/QPNDtRT

I want YOU, Carver9, to give me your interpretation. What do the pretty pictures tell you?

Carv is hacking your phone as we speak.

You never stood a chance against the Mobile God.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I want YOU, Carver9, to give me your interpretation. What do the pretty pictures tell you?

I don't know what the book is about. I don't think they wrote anything in the book on everything Ultraman read until the end.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Have you read the story?

The book of 'infinite pages' - what was the book about, what did it contain, subject wise?

I mean, it was pretty clear cut. If you don't remember such a major detail, or just plain don't know, its ok. Just want to point out it was a major plot point, so you not knowing doesn't bode well...

Why are you asking me what the book is about when we need to be discussing the book being lifted in Limbo, an area where nothing is material, just memories, THOUGHTS and we need to discuss how Ultraman was able to read the last page.

"Here in Limbo, there is NO MATERIAL THINGS TO BE DESTROYED. LIMBO IS A LIVING "MEMORY".

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Why are you not using this scan against Superman, Dark? Just picture if this was Hulk. You have all of this evidence. I need you to use it.

It was explicitly stated that it would require the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity in order to read the Book of Limbo. Why? Because processing infinity, requires infinity.

That said, the Book was text-form(hence its infinite pages), but it also 'uploaded' certain contents of itself into the readers' minds -- showing them what they wanted/needed to see. In Superman and Billy's case, it revealed the true threat behind FC to them(ie. Mandrakk), and also revealed a possible means of defeating him(ie. Thought-Robot.)

So it's possible that the Book simply revealed the "Mandrakk Chapter" to Ultraman, because he was absolutely fangirling over the idea of worshiping a hateful God... And Ultraman, being a complete idiot, just figured that it must be the last chapter. /shrug


All of that being said, I would also point out that Anti-Monitor very nearly wiped out every single universe within the infinite pre-crisis multiverse...in a finite amount of time...by destroying the universes individually. Logically speaking, that shouldn't have been possible, either... But this is fiction ffs, not scientific papers.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was explicitly stated that it would require the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity in order to read the Book of Limbo. Why? Because processing infinity, requires infinity.

That said, the Book was text-form(hence its infinite pages), but it also 'uploaded' certain contents of itself into the readers' minds as well -- showing them what they wanted/needed to see. In Superman and Billy's case, it revealed the true threat behind FC to them(ie. Mandrakk), and also revealed a possible means of defeating him(ie. Thought-Robot.)

So it's possible that the Book simply revealed the "Mandrakk Chapter" to Ultraman, because he was absolutely fixated on the idea of worshiping a hateful God... And Ultraman, being an absolutely idiot, just figured that it must be the last chapter. /shrug


All of that being said, I would also point out that Anti-Monitor very nearly wiped out every single universe within the infinite pre-crisis multiverse...in a finite amount of time...by destroying the universes individually. Logically speaking, that shouldn't have been possible, either... But this is fiction ffs, not scientific papers.

Most of what you said is "possible" but it was never mentioned in the comic in Ultraman case. Then, as shown above, there is context to the area where the book was lifted (limbo).

Originally posted by carver9
Most of what you said is "possible" but it was never mentioned in the comic in Ultraman case. Hence my Anti-Monitor analogy.

He nearly destroyed an infinite amount of universes in a finite amount of time, and he did so by wiping them out one by one. Does that mean the pre-crisis multiverse wasn't actually infinite? Of course not.

Same sort of logic applies here: even IF we assume that Ultraman was truly able to read the Book of Limbo all the way to its "end", that doesn't diminish the fact that it was still infinite. Again, this is fiction.

At least your argument is better than Darks.

Originally posted by carver9
During that instance, I dont know since IC was amped. All of the UFOS were.

But Hulk still beat them.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
But Hulk still beat them.

You asked me who was stronger, not who won.

BTW, I read the Death Metal issues and here is my impression of what was going on:

Perpetua was setting up alternate versions of 3 crises (COIE, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis) in 3 different universes in the Dark Multiverse, and channeling the crisis energy they generated, via people made into 'antennae', to make her powerful enough to conquer the normal multiverse, which had 52 universes, and she was conquering them one at a time.

Superboy Prime smashed those universes where the alternate crises occurred, which stopped the flow of crisis energy.

So that feat was destroying 3 universes, not 3 multiverses. But later in the same story, he needed the help of about a dozen others just to 'destabilize' one version of Earth (it looked like they didn't even completely destroy it, just damaged it so the evil Batman couldn't use it to focus energy to make his new multiverse).

So it's kind of inconsistent. But still a very impressive feat.

Originally posted by carver9
You asked me who was stronger, not who won.

Generally, if outnumbered, you have to be stronger to win in a direct fight, don't you?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Generally, if outnumbered, you have to be stronger to win in a direct fight, don't you?

He had help against Ironclad and bfred him afterwards. 🤦🏿

https://ibb.co/jWfVhdz
https://ibb.co/SNh3xKc
https://ibb.co/LvQxBNV

Nice try though

Originally posted by carver9
At least your argument is better than Darks.



It's my argument.

Originally posted by carver9
He had help against Ironclad and bfred him afterwards. 🤦🏿

https://ibb.co/jWfVhdz
https://ibb.co/SNh3xKc
https://ibb.co/LvQxBNV

Nice try though

He went up against all four of them. If each one was as strong as him, he couldn't have won.

Originally posted by carver9
During that instance, I dont know since IC was amped. All of the UFOS were.

...

U-Foes*


UFOs are these, carv:

https://i.ibb.co/JsMrNVd/two-ufos-flying-in-fog-with-light-below-3d-illustration-monochromatic-sepia-toned-old-time-photograp.jpg

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He went up against all four of them. If each one was as strong as him, he couldn't have won.

He did but we are talking about the shaking of infinity both Ironclad and Hulk achieved. Hulk bfred Ironclad, twice which makes your initial question moot.

https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1277348493598887937/pu/img/LhHFNUwPosdUxN5A.jpg


Best feet.

Originally posted by carver9
He did but we are talking about the shaking of infinity both Ironclad and Hulk achieved. Hulk bfred Ironclad, twice which makes your initial question moot.

My point was that if they were both infinite, neither one would have the advantage over the other.

Originally posted by carver9
During that instance, I dont know since IC was amped. All of the UFOS were.
Iron clad wasn't amped lol

Originally posted by Endless Mike
BTW, I read the Death Metal issues and here is my impression of what was going on:

Perpetua was setting up alternate versions of 3 crises (COIE, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis) in 3 different universes in the Dark Multiverse, and channeling the crisis energy they generated, via people made into 'antennae', to make her powerful enough to conquer the normal multiverse, which had 52 universes, and she was conquering them one at a time.

Superboy Prime smashed those universes where the alternate crises occurred, which stopped the flow of crisis energy.

So that feat was destroying 3 universes, not 3 multiverses. But later in the same story, he needed the help of about a dozen others just to 'destabilize' one version of Earth (it looked like they didn't even completely destroy it, just damaged it so the evil Batman couldn't use it to focus energy to make his new multiverse).

So it's kind of inconsistent. But still a very impressive feat.
Those were multiverses. Final Crisis, Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis all involved a separate multiverse.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
My point was that if they were both infinite, neither one would have the advantage over the other.
It doesn't matter if you think it's not infinite, the entire creation was in that book.

https://i.postimg.cc/15mj90kR/image.jpg

Endless is talking about IronClad and Hulk.

Basically what Whirly said. Including I'm also very biased about Superman part
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Good old KMC, Abhi is the Galactic Storm of Superman fans. 1 trillion posts all saying the same thing, he is right mind, but then Supes is my fav'rit too so I'm also very biased.

Yeah, the original crises involved multiverses, but considering the facts that:

A. These versions of the crises were stated to be taking place within the dark multiverse (singular)

B. The events of each were shown to be significantly different from the originals, and this was noted as an important plot point

C. Even after SBP's punch, the dark multiverse (which had 52 universes) still existed in some form

D. The crisis energy that these crises provided to Perpetua was only sufficient for her to conquer a multiverse of 52 universes one at a time

This looks like the destruction of 3 universes, not 3 multiverses.

Unless, of course, you have further evidence showing that each of those realities was a multiverse.

(Don't get me wrong, it's still probably the most impressive feat posted so far, if you don't take the infinite strength feats literally).

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, the original crises involved multiverses, but considering the facts that:

A. These versions of the crises were stated to be taking place within the dark multiverse (singular)

B. The events of each were shown to be significantly different from the originals, and this was noted as an important plot point

C. Even after SBP's punch, the dark multiverse (which had 52 universes) still existed in some form

D. The crisis energy that these crises provided to Perpetua was only sufficient for her to conquer a multiverse of 52 universes one at a time

This looks like the destruction of 3 universes, not 3 multiverses.

Unless, of course, you have further evidence showing that each of those realities was a multiverse.

(Don't get me wrong, it's still probably the most impressive feat posted so far, if you don't take the infinite strength feats literally).

I actually would say SBP's showing against DK( the evil Batman) in Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin is more impressive than the Crises Punch. Though it isn't a pure strength feat per se.

Besides, I think that story is the best in the Death Metal event and it also is a perfect conclusion for SBP's journey. I personally recommand you to read it

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin

Originally posted by Endless Mike

C. Even after SBP's punch, the dark multiverse (which had 52 universes) still existed in some form

About that, Dark Multiverse actually is far larger than 52 universes. The 52 universes are the main Multiverse/3-D Multiverse

Originally posted by Galan007


*And beneath the proper multiverse sits the Dark Multiverse: a literal dark reflection of the prime creation. It is defined as "a Realm much older and much vaster than ours. An oceanic, subconscious Realm our tiny multiverse floats on":
https://i.imgur.com/ZQXKej9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KQv5YBW.jpg


Edit:
Galan also organized relatively recent DC Cosmology in the quote, you could check them if you want to know what the recent DC Cosmology

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, the original crises involved multiverses, but considering the facts that:

A. These versions of the crises were stated to be taking place within the dark multiverse (singular)

Dark Multiverse is infinite in nature.

The very nature of the COIE means it has to involve infinite Earths. So did Final Crisis. The events differed such that the villains won.

Dark Multiverse is infinite, not just 52 universes. In fact just one part of the Dark Multiverse could contain entire 52 universes as seen in Tales from Dark Multiverse : Dark Nights Metal.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B28rJZ-0zAE/X-jU3YzGKdI/AAAAAAAAhTw/BqPg1a0RDTMhf2spA_rZqefvCZByzxvtQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/TFDM_DNMETAL_01-3.jpg

Its an Elseworld contained within the Dark Multiverse which contained a copy of the main DC multiverse.





That doesn't mean anything, at all.

Its not universes by any means.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It doesn't matter if you think it's not infinite, the entire creation was in that book.

https://i.postimg.cc/15mj90kR/image.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
"Here in Limbo, there is NO MATERIAL THINGS TO BE DESTROYED. LIMBO IS A LIVING "MEMORY".

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Why are you not using this scan against Superman, Dark? Just picture if this was Hulk. You have all of this evidence. I need you to use it.

How does this change anything carter?

He was trying to argue because Limbo's matter is broken and Limbo is a living memory, so Superman didn't physically lift it

Which I suppose Carver forget that Superman specifically mentioned strength was involved in lifting said book

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
He was trying to argue because Limbo's matter is broken and Limbo is a living memory, so Superman didn't physically lift it

Which I suppose Carver forget that Superman specifically mentioned strength was involved in lifting said book
Carver needs strength to lift his memory too, he forgets pretty much everything we teach him.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/68ebc5fcc134b2121d80e753feb07b6b/f3832d51e977e457-2a/s1280x1920/f675e7c3a529fbc3081457f4f550e71300d9ccdc.pnj

Originally posted by carver9
"Here in Limbo, there is NO MATERIAL THINGS TO BE DESTROYED. LIMBO IS A LIVING "MEMORY".

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Why are you not using this scan against Superman, Dark? Just picture if this was Hulk. You have all of this evidence. I need you to use it.

So I have re-read the comic (thus far, all of my arguments that have defeated you have been based on random memories).

You have misunderstood the scan. You read that panel, and you interpret it as Quantum Superman saying the matter in Limbo is not there, or something.

But that is wrong.

Quantum Superman is telling Superman not to worry about combining with Ultraman. Earlier in the book, we are clearly told:
https://i.postimg.cc/s2x9ch60/RCO007-1468424396.jpg

Not once, but twice:
https://i.postimg.cc/TYQD4PD8/RCO016-1468424313.jpg

Pretty important plot point, no?

But Quantum Superman is explaining to Superman that he wouldn't be annihilated, and to trust him - aftewards, he can still go save Lois:
https://i.postimg.cc/gc8yNdsd/RCO010-1468424396.jpg

Ultimately, even if they combine, Quantum Superman is telling him that in Limbo, they wouldn't be destroyed - because the memory will continue to live on. I mean, we clearly see outsiders (Superman, Ultraman, Shazam , Overman etc) interacting with *things*, so there is clearly *stuff* in Limbo.
https://i.postimg.cc/50F5cMMB/RCO003-1468424396.jpg

So I don't understand what your argument is. Are you arguing that Limbo is just made of memories, no physical matter? Then what are the ships anchoring themselves to? What *trash* are the ships taking? What is the infinite computer of the Ultima Thule reading, interacting with, if it is just metaphysical memory? We even see Shazam pointing out a shard from the Rock of Eternity (and bonus, Overman handling some random tech):
https://i.postimg.cc/xT9m5mqy/RCO018-1468424313.jpg

TL;DR: Limbo has physical matter, but Quantum Superman's statement was merely to reassure Superman that his sacrifice would not mean he would be destroyed, so he can still go on to save Lois afterward. So you are misunderstanding that scan and running with 'there is no physical matter in Limbo' - which is wrong, because Limbo DOES have matter.

Then we go onto the next part of your posts, that because Ultraman read to the end, it isn't infinite. Which is silly, because:

A: you can have a beginning and an end to infinity - there are infinite numbers between 1 &2; and

B: Ultraman was clearly wrong:
https://i.postimg.cc/0N4GHyh5/RCO028-w-1468424313.jpg

The Infinite Book contains every possible book (which was my question to you for six long years, lol):
https://i.postimg.cc/zGcRqP70/RCO019-1468424313.jpg

So all Ultraman did, was read to the end of *A* book, where Mandrakk won. Obviously, Mandrakk...did not win -there is more than one story, after all. Evil did not win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I have re-read the comic (thus far, all of my arguments that have defeated you have been based on random memories).

You have misunderstood the scan. You read that panel, and you interpret it as Quantum Superman saying the matter in Limbo is not there, or something.

But that is wrong.

Quantum Superman is telling Superman not to worry about combining with Ultraman. Earlier in the book, we are clearly told:
https://i.postimg.cc/s2x9ch60/RCO007-1468424396.jpg

Not once, but twice:
https://i.postimg.cc/TYQD4PD8/RCO016-1468424313.jpg

Pretty important plot point, no?

But Quantum Superman is explaining to Superman that he wouldn't be annihilated, and to trust him - aftewards, he can still go save Lois:
https://i.postimg.cc/gc8yNdsd/RCO010-1468424396.jpg

Ultimately, even if they combine, Quantum Superman is telling him that in Limbo, they wouldn't be destroyed - because the memory will continue to live on. I mean, we clearly see outsiders (Superman, Ultraman, Shazam , Overman etc) interacting with *things*, so there is clearly *stuff* in Limbo.
https://i.postimg.cc/50F5cMMB/RCO003-1468424396.jpg

So I don't understand what your argument is. Are you arguing that Limbo is just made of memories, no physical matter? Then what are the ships anchoring themselves to? What *trash* are the ships taking? What is the infinite computer of the Ultima Thule reading, interacting with, if it is just metaphysical memory? We even see Shazam pointing out a shard from the Rock of Eternity (and bonus, Overman handling some random tech):
https://i.postimg.cc/xT9m5mqy/RCO018-1468424313.jpg

TL;DR: Limbo has physical matter, but Superman's sacrifice did not mean he would be destroyed, so he can still go on to save Lois afterward. So you are misunderstanding that scan and running with 'there is no physical matter in Limbo' - which is wrong, because Limbo is made up of matter. When superheroes are forgotten in the *real* (i.e. comicbook) world, they go to Limbo. They don't become weaker.

Then we go onto the next part of your posts, that because Ultraman read to the end, it isn't infinite. Which is silly, because:

A: you can have a beginning and an end to infinity - there are infinite numbers between 1 &2; and

B: Ultraman was clearly wrong:
https://i.postimg.cc/0N4GHyh5/RCO028-w-1468424313.jpg

The Infinite Book contains every possible book (which was my question to you for six long years, lol):
https://i.postimg.cc/zGcRqP70/RCO019-1468424313.jpg

So all Ultraman did, was read to the end of *A* book, where Mandrakk won. Obviously, Mandrakk...did not win -there is more than one story, after all. Evil did not win.
Aside from all that

You also have Superman specifically mentioned strength being a factor in lifting the Infinite Book
https://i.ibb.co/SrWPkcK/2.png

Indeed.

But Carver needs it explained as to why Quantum Superman said what he said - which is what my post also provides. I'm sure he's not the only one who misinterprets that single panel (which goes to show the dangers of just focussing on single panels, especially in a Morrison book like this).

Limbo is merely the place where forgotten heroes go to, where they will be effectively immortal because they will never be forgotten in that place.:
https://i.postimg.cc/1tnzJmZQ/RCO017-1468424313.jpg

It doesn't mean they are immaterial. It just means that they'll exist in....well, limbo, forever.

We even see Shazam take the shard back to his universe at the end of his story:
https://i.postimg.cc/cJGTsHXD/RCO025-1468424396.jpg

So no, Limbo isn't immaterial. So the book is material.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
My point was that if they were both infinite, neither one would have the advantage over the other.
It's called the "Infinite Book," but it clearly wasn't literally infinite because the monkey who wrote it died.

https://i.imgur.com/gnM5OfOm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/WtXyOEym.jpg

- Animal Man (1988) #25

Not to mention it had a final chapter.

https://i.imgur.com/shTLK86m.jpg

- Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2

That said, it's probably a massive book because it did contain the complete works of Shakespeare. And you don't have to be an expert in combinatorics to realize that this will number will blow up. But it has been done before and it's something like a ten million digits long number, which puts it in the same category of bullshit as Cyborg's million decibel white noise.

https://i.imgur.com/5RYJvmwm.jpg

- Animal Man (1988) #25

The Great Book of Kings also allegedly had infinite pages, which also obviously bullshit.

https://i.imgur.com/sjojMLUm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/sHcNPFmm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/kdEwm4hm.jpg

- Thor (2020) #8

A:
Final chapter does not mean finite pages. I can have ten chapters, with the last chapter being infinite in length.

B:
Ultraman was obviously wrong, as the story did not end with Mandrakk winning. So he hadn't finished the story, or, had read *A* book that ended with Mandrakk winning.

C:
Just because you have a beginning and an end, does not mean finite. There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2, as you well know.

Pick your poison.

PS: phildo still awaits you. You're obviously able to do research etc now.

Originally posted by Astner
It's called the "Infinite Book," but it clearly wasn't literally infinite because the monkey who wrote it died.

https://i.imgur.com/gnM5OfOm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/WtXyOEym.jpg

- Animal Man (1988) #25

Not to mention it had a final chapter.

https://i.imgur.com/shTLK86m.jpg

- Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2

That said, it's probably a massive book because it did contain the complete works of Shakespeare. And you don't have to be an expert in combinatorics to realize that this will number will blow up. But it has been done before and it's something like a ten million digits long number, which puts it in the same category of bullshit as Cyborg's million decibel white noise.

https://i.imgur.com/5RYJvmwm.jpg

- Animal Man (1988) #25

The Great Book of Kings also allegedly had infinite pages, which also obviously bullshit.

https://i.imgur.com/sjojMLUm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/sHcNPFmm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/kdEwm4hm.jpg

- Thor (2020) #8
The book contained entirety of creation. That's the actual feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A: Final chapter does not mean finite pages. I can have ten chapters, with the last chapter being infinite in length.
Technically correct but non-applicable. Since the monkey who wrote it died.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
B: Ultraman was obviously wrong, as the story did not end with Mandrakk winning. So he hadn't finished the story, or, had read *A* book that ended with Mandrakk winning.
Maybe, but the book that Superman and Captain Marvel lifted was the same book that Ultraman lifted and read.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
C: Just because you have a beginning and an end, does not mean finite. There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2, as you well know.
This is not applicable either, because we're talking about a sequence of positive integers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pick your poison.
You're not making a proper case against any of the arguments I've presented. Mainly because your arguments aren't based off the comics, they're excuses based off interpretative wiggle room.

I'm not even giving the book the finite number of pages that are implied to exist because it's so far beyond what Superman has ever shown that there's no point in even humoring it.

The weight of the Earth that Superman bench-pressed, which is one of his most impressive feats, is like nothing in comparison.

https://i.imgur.com/FVpgQql.png

So this falls under Author Induced Stupidity just like the Hulk's Richter Scale feat and Cyborg's million decibel feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PS: phildo still awaits you. You're obviously able to do research etc now.
He can continue to wait, I'll respond to it when I feel like it. Worst case scenario he gets the last word, which I'm perfectly fine with.

Originally posted by Astner
Technically correct but non-applicable. Since the monkey who wrote it died.
Proof that it's the same monkey? Merryman merely says *A* monkey.
https://i.postimg.cc/0y1PqGRh/RCO019-1468424313-1.jpg


Which contains *every possible book*:
https://i.postimg.cc/zGcRqP70/RCO019-1468424313.jpg
So it being the same physical book.....means nothing. Your argument is like arguing that we must have listened to the same song, just because we are holding the same DVD. Moreover, the whole point was that the Ultima Thule could read and download the needed repair manual from the same physical book:
https://i.postimg.cc/mDnWpCyX/RCO019-1468424313-2.jpg

I don't think repair manuals end with 'Evil wins, everyone dies, you will all kneel to Mandrakk'. In short, different books.


Because based off the comics, we have:
https://i.postimg.cc/zGcRqP70/RCO019-1468424313.jpg
And
https://i.postimg.cc/1XNhkXW9/RCO019-1468424313-3.jpg
And
https://i.postimg.cc/SjFFk45c/image.jpg
And
https://i.postimg.cc/SQXnSG3K/RCO019-1468424313-4.jpg

So based off comics, we take it at face value, no wriggle room, as you put it.


Interpretive wriggle room.


Interpretive wriggle room. You are merely making excuses, because you aren't going off what the comic shows - which was that it was a book, that contained every possible book, infinite pages, the entirety of existence.

Edit: the entire premise of the story, is that Superman can do the impossible@
https://i.postimg.cc/nV6CCDfG/RCO029-1468424396.jpg
Want to chalk it up as an outlier? Sure. But that is not what this thread is about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Proof that it's the same monkey? Merryman merely says *A* monkey.
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that there are two different Infinite Books, written by two different monkeys, despite the fact that both stories are written by the same writer, and despite the fact that it was never specified?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which contains *every possible book*:

So it being the same physical book.....means nothing. Your argument is like arguing that we must have listened to the same song, just because we are holding the same DVD.
No it's not. The book didn't get a new final chapter when Ultraman decided to lift it, that's not how things work.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Moreover, the whole point was that the Ultima Thule could read and download the needed repair manual from the same physical book:

I don't think repair manuals end with 'Evil wins, everyone dies, you will all kneel to Mandrakk'. In short, different books.

Because based off the comics, we have:

So based off comics, we take it at face value, no wriggle room, as you put it.
We never take the word "infinity" literally unless we're given a proper explanation to the nature of its context, because it's a word that's used more figuratively than literally.

So it being named the "Infinite Book" or being said to have "infinite pages" is not going to overshadow the fact that it was written by a monkey who died.

But we don't have to go that far because it falls under Author Induced Stupidty for simply generating the complete works of Shakespeare, which is far beyond what Superman could ever hope to lift. We're not humoring Cyborg's million decibel feat and we're not humoring this.

As for the physical/material arguement, the only things in Limbo that were physical in Animal Man was Animal Man (because he wasn't part of Limbo) and I assume the same argument would hold in Superman Beyond.


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit: the entire premise of the story, is that Superman can do the impossible

Want to chalk it up as an outlier? Sure. But that is not what this thread is about.
Are you injecting your own words into the comics? Because that's not what's said.

Either way I'm not dismissing it for being an outlier, I'm dismissing it for being hyperbole. We know this because it had an end.

You'd have a better case for arguing that the Book of Kings that kid Thor tried to read was infinite. If anything it's even more impressive because kid Thor didn't struggle opening it, where Superman and Captain Marvel failed. But at this point I'm just humoring your nonsense.

Dark is making nothing but excuses. He would exempt this ft if it was any other marvel character.

Astner, no one uses the feat as proof to Superman having infinite strength in a forum fight. But you can not deny the book had infinite pages when the comic explicitly says so. Like DS said, it can be ruled as an extreme outlier. But for the purposes of the thread, it is valid (OP didn't say that PIS is not allowed).

Me personally don't use infinite feats as they are not quantifiable and are too much of an outlier to be used for evidence of how strong someone is in a forum (they are basically lies).

The best feat I can think of is Superman breaking the chains that were used to haul stars between galaxies.

Originally posted by h1a8
Astner, no one uses the feat as proof to Superman having infinite strength in a forum fight. But you can not deny the book had infinite pages when the comic explicitly says so. Like DS said, it can be ruled as an extreme outlier. But for the purposes of the thread, it is valid (OP didn't say that PIS is not allowed).
Something can be called infinite in a figurative sense. This is a fairly basic definition of the word.

https://i.imgur.com/C78m1MX.jpg

And considering the fact that it had an end, and it was written by a monkey who died. Why would you take it literally?

Given the context of the story it's not literally infinite.

https://i.imgur.com/kR5RbOD.jpg

Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

Originally posted by Astner
Let me get this straight, you're arguing that there are two different Infinite Books, written by two different monkeys, despite the fact that both stories are written by the same writer, and despite the fact that it was never specified?

Sounds like you're injecting your own words here, tbh. Because that's not what was said - at no point did Merryman say it was the same monkey, only that it was a monkey. Your line of argument relies on this premise, so feel free to back it up with actual proof, not interpretive wriggle room, as you say.


Then he was clearly mistaken, or else he read a different book. Because he clearly states that evil wins:

https://i.postimg.cc/0N4GHyh5/RCO028-w-1468424313.jpg

And it didn't.


Sounds like interpretive wriggle room, rather than just going by what's on the comic page.


Prove it died. Merryman merely says *a* monkey.


That sounds like interpretive wriggle room.



I am confused, because you're sounding pretty hypocritical. On the one hand, you tell me to use what's on the page. Fine. On the page, it literally states infinite pages etc. Then you start making excuses; 'oh it can't possibly be that much, hyperbole!'

Which is it?

Ultraman said he read the end of the infinite book, not the end of a story. He said he saw the final chapter, not the final chapter of one story. Those words are clear.

Originally posted by carver9
Ultraman said he read the end of the infinite book, not the end of a story. He said he saw the final chapter, not the final chapter of one story. Those words are clear.
Originally posted by Galan007
It was explicitly stated that it would require the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity in order to read the Book of Limbo. Why? Because processing infinity, requires infinity.

That said, the Book was text-form(hence its infinite pages), but it also 'uploaded' certain contents of itself into the readers' minds -- showing them what they wanted/needed to see. In Superman and Billy's case, it revealed the true threat behind FC to them(ie. Mandrakk), and also revealed a possible means of defeating him(ie. Thought-Robot.)

So it's possible that the Book simply revealed the "Mandrakk Chapter" to Ultraman, because he was absolutely fangirling over the idea of worshiping a hateful God... And Ultraman, being a complete idiot, just figured that it must be the last chapter. /shrug


All of that being said, I would also point out that Anti-Monitor very nearly wiped out every single universe within the infinite pre-crisis multiverse...in a finite amount of time...by destroying the universes individually. Logically speaking, that shouldn't have been possible, either... But this is fiction ffs, not scientific papers.
Originally posted by Galan007
Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

Edit:
Also, like DS and Galan pointed out, if we go by what the clear-cut words in the comic, then it specifically states has infinite pages, contains every possible book and whole existence

Originally posted by Galan007
Morrison clearly refined his idea of what the monkey was actually toiling away at, though.

Back in Animal Man(written in the 80s), the implication is that the monkey was just sort of writing random shit down until his death. Fast-forward to Final Crisis(written a few decades later), and Morrison explicitly stated what the monkey wrote: a text of infinite pages all occupying the same space, containing every book possible, containing the whole of existence, etc. That's why it required the Ultima Thule's infinite memory capacity to process the Book.

It was clearly intended to be infinite in a very literal sense

I also like how the end of the arc is a commentary on stories itself:

Lois: "I have a story to tell"
Clark: "Can't wait to hear it, Lois. I can't wait to hear it"

To be Continued

...signifying their endless nature and Superman never letting the concept of Mandrakk win.

Originally posted by Astner
Something can be called infinite in a figurative sense. This is a fairly basic definition of the word.

https://i.imgur.com/C78m1MX.jpg

And considering the fact that it had an end, and it was written by a monkey who died. Why would you take it literally?

Given the context of the story it's not literally infinite.

https://i.imgur.com/kR5RbOD.jpg
Ultraman read it because Ultima Thule has infinite memory capacity. How does the monkey dying has anything to do with the fact that it's been repeatedly stated as containing infinite pages AND entirety of creation?

You sure love jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ultraman read it because Ultima Thule has infinite memory capacity.
You're missing the point. The problem is that it can't be literally infinite because it had an end.

The reason I'm not accepting Galan's interpretation of "Ultraman didn't know what he was talking about," and "the book was retconned," is because it's not based on the comics. If you don't have to fall back on canon to motivate your excuses then you can excuse anything, which makes the excuses worthless.

It's odd because people are chastising Carver for doing this, and then doing it themselves.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How does the monkey dying has anything to do with the fact that it's been repeatedly stated as containing infinite pages AND entirety of creation?
Because it provides the context for the nature of the book. For the book to be infinite, the monkey would have to have written it sempiternaly. Which is contradicted by the fact that he died.

The fact that the word "infinity" is being repeated doesn't make it any more literal.

If I refer to the number of droplets in the ocean as "infinte," it doesn't matter whether I do it once or a hundred times, it's still going to be figurative.

Even Galan argued that we shouldn't scrutinize the feat, which to me is as good as a concession that the feat doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Originally posted by Astner
You're missing the point. The problem is that it can't be literally infinite because it had an end.

No, it's infinite because the comic said so, repeatedly.

Like you're doing, right now?

Because?

Any comic feat doesn't hold to scrutiny. Pretty much every feat in fiction doesn't.

What's your point?

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's infinite because the comic said so, repeatedly.
It also said that the book had an end.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Like you're doing, right now?
No. I'm falling back in the fact that the monkey who wrote it died, and Ultraman saying that he read the end of it. Both of these things are canon.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Because?
Because figurative statements don't become literal by being repeated.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Any comic feat doesn't hold to scrutiny. Pretty much every feat in fiction doesn't.

What's your point?
I'm referring to logical scrutiny, not nomological scrutiny. The latter can be disregarded, the former can't.

Bench-pressing 5.972 sextillion tons is only more impressive than lifting 100 tons if we assume that logic holds. Because "5.972 sextillion tons > 100 tons" is a proposition that has to be evaluated logically.

Originally posted by Astner
You're missing the point. The problem is that it can't be literally infinite because it had an end.

The reason I'm not accepting Galan's interpretation of "Ultraman didn't know what he was talking about," and "the book was retconned," is because it's not based on the comics. If you don't have to fall back on canon to motivate your excuses then you can excuse anything, which makes the excuses worthless.

It's odd because people are chastising Carver for doing this, and then doing it themselves.


Because it provides the context for the nature of the book. For the book to be infinite, the monkey would have to have written it sempiternaly. Which is contradicted by the fact that he died.

The fact that the word "infinity" is being repeated doesn't make it any more literal.

If I refer to the number of droplets in the ocean as "infinte," it doesn't matter whether I do it once or a hundred times, it's still going to be figurative.

Even Galan argued that we shouldn't scrutinize the feat, which to me is as good as a concession that the feat doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

But it IS based on comics.

Ultraman was literally, wrong:

https://i.postimg.cc/V69mvdqD/RCO002-1468424396.jpg

Now, as you chastise us for not basing arguments on the comics - so where is your proof the monkeys are the same? You are adding your own interpretive excuses.

As for holding up to scrutiny, there is zero way mutations in DNA lead to reality warpers, magic users, weather controllers, and masters of the EM spectrum. Under scrutiny, there is zero way a mere human can master all forms of earth martial arts, some extraterrestrial forms, collect a dozen PhDs from top universities, be an Olympic level marathon runner, gymnast, weightlifter and sprinter etc etc, all by his mid-30s - but we handwave it.

And in THIS instance, the whole point is that we suspend belief, and the story of Superman does the impossible.

I mean, if it helps you understand it...again, Ultraman read to the end (not the end; important distinction) of the book, and saw the final chapter. He didn't ACTUALLY read to the end of the final chapter.

So, again:

I mean, your only 'rebuttal' is based on an assertion that is not proven anywhere, to the best of my knowledge (certainly not provided by yourself). If you cannot prove your assertion that the monkey is the same, then your entire argument falls down.

https://c.tenor.com/4psNtC1sInsAAAAd/monke.gif

Originally posted by Astner
It also said that the book had an end.

That's a claim made by Mandrakk and Ultraman which was later proven false.

Ultraman claimed evil won in the end and was proven false.



This is nonsense.

Anything can be disregarded lol. Especially in fiction.

Superman holding up 100 tons is as nonsensical as holding whatever sextillion tons because both are unrealistic. Same as fictional infinity.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it IS based on comics.

Ultraman was literally, wrong:

https://i.postimg.cc/V69mvdqD/RCO002-1468424396.jpg

Now, as you chastise us for not basing arguments on the comics - so where is your proof the monkeys are the same? You are adding your own interpretive excuses.

As for holding up to scrutiny, there is zero way mutations in DNA lead to reality warpers, magic users, weather controllers, and masters of the EM spectrum. Under scrutiny, there is zero way a mere human can master all forms of earth martial arts, some extraterrestrial forms, collect a dozen PhDs from top universities, be an Olympic level marathon runner, gymnast, weightlifter and sprinter etc etc, all by his mid-30s - but we handwave it.

And in THIS instance, the whole point is that we suspend belief, and the story of Superman does the impossible.

I mean, if it helps you understand it...again, Ultraman read to the end (not the end; important distinction) of the book, and saw the final chapter. He didn't ACTUALLY read to the end of the final chapter.

So, again:

I mean, your only 'rebuttal' is based on an assertion that is not proven anywhere, to the best of my knowledge (certainly not provided by yourself). If you cannot prove your assertion that the monkey is the same, then your entire argument falls down.
Hilariously Mandrakk claims the same.

https://i.postimg.cc/34hqXpwp/image.jpg

Neither saw the end because the story of comics will continue.

So it's false that Ultraman couldn't turn the pages to the book anymore? The story was written to the point of Superman being capable of doing anything per Darksaint, so, why couldn't the Supermen merging rewrite or create a new ending to the story on the last page Ultraman read?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Edit: the entire premise of the story, is that Superman can do the impossible@
https://i.postimg.cc/nV6CCDfG/RCO029-1468424396.jpg
Want to chalk it up as an outlier? Sure. But that is not what this thread is about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ultraman was literally, wrong:
So what? It was the book they lifted. We're not talking about two different books. The book Ultraman lifted was the same book that Superman and Captain Marvel failed to lift.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now, as you chastise us for not basing arguments on the comics - so where is your proof the monkeys are the same?
I don't think it's necessary to prove that the monkey in Limbo who wrote the Infinite Book in Animal Man is the same as the monkey in Limbo who wrote the Infinite Book who was referenced in Superman Beyond, because they were never implied to be different. You're grasping at straws here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You are adding your own interpretive excuses.
No I'm not, the arguments I'm making are based off the fact that the monkey who wrote the book died and that the book had an end.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As for holding up to scrutiny, there is zero way mutations in DNA lead to reality warpers, magic users, weather controllers, and masters of the EM spectrum. Under scrutiny, there is zero way a mere human can master all forms of earth martial arts, some extraterrestrial forms, collect a dozen PhDs from top universities, be an Olympic level marathon runner, gymnast, weightlifter and sprinter etc etc, all by his mid-30s - but we handwave it.

And in THIS instance, the whole point is that we suspend belief, and the story of Superman does the impossible.
You're conflating logical scrutiny with nomological scrutiny and probability, they're not the same.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, if it helps you understand it...again, Ultraman read to the end (not the end; important distinction) of the book, and saw the final chapter. He didn't ACTUALLY read to the end of the final chapter.
No, I understand the story perfectly well. I'm not the one having to differentiate between "the end" and "the end" for my interpretation to work. If "infinity" is interpreted figuratively (which is not an infringement on how the story is written) then the story is free of contradictions and makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, your only 'rebuttal' is based on an assertion that is not proven anywhere, to the best of my knowledge (certainly not provided by yourself). If you cannot prove your assertion that the monkey is the same, then your entire argument falls down.
My arguments are based off logic and the scenes from Animal Man #25 and Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2 that I've posted.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman holding up 100 tons is as nonsensical as holding whatever sextillion tons because both are unrealistic. Same as fictional infinity.

100 tons ain't that much irl --- two heavy tanks can easily weight more than that.

Originally posted by Astner
So what? It was the book they lifted. We're not talking about two different books. The book Ultraman lifted was the same book that Superman and Captain Marvel failed to lift.


I don't think it's necessary to prove that the monkey in Limbo who wrote the Infinite Book in Animal Man is the same as the monkey in Limbo who wrote the Infinite Book who was referenced in Superman Beyond, because they were never implied to be different. You're grasping at straws here.


No I'm not, the arguments I'm making are based off the fact that the monkey who wrote the book died and that the book had an end.


You're conflating logical scrutiny with nomological scrutiny and probability, they're not the same.


No, I understand the story perfectly well. I'm not the one having to differentiate between "the end" and "the end" for my interpretation to work. If "infinity" is interpreted figuratively (which is not an infringement on how the story is written) then the story is free of contradictions and makes perfect sense.


My arguments are based off logic and the scenes from Animal Man #25 and Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2 that I've posted.

I think it IS necessary, tbh. A second monkey could have come after the one that died. So as your entire argument hinges on these monkeys being the same, prove it.

After all, the Anti Monitor ended the infinite DC multiverse.

And the book that was lifted.... contains multiple books. Just like a DVD I hold in my hands can contain multiple albums. You listening to the end of one album, and asserting you have listened to the end of the DVD, isn't correct if there was more that you hadn't listened to.

Especially if you're subsequently proved to be wrong as to the final song on that DVD.

Originally posted by Astner
You're missing the point. The problem is that it can't be literally infinite because it had an end. What is this mentally challenged shit you're typing, ASStner?

Of course it can.

Prior to Crisis on Infinite Earths, there were an infinity of Universes, each with its own characters and stories -- thus an infinity of stories.

If you skip to the Anti-Monitor end chapter, you can see the end, where they are wiped out and then a new post-Crisis Universe is rebooted.

Thus, there are an infinity of stories, with an end, which is Anti Monitor.

How could you possibly not understand this?

I'm going to be honest here, I'm very satisfied with how this thread turned out.

The coutner-positions are so absurd that I'm fully content with letting them speak for themselves.

Still awaiting your monkey proof. But it seems we can just make any claim we want these days, and ignore the burden of proof.

Then turn around and claim victory when challenged.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I have re-read the comic (thus far, all of my arguments that have defeated you have been based on random memories).

You have misunderstood the scan. You read that panel, and you interpret it as Quantum Superman saying the matter in Limbo is not there, or something.

But that is wrong.

Quantum Superman is telling Superman not to worry about combining with Ultraman. Earlier in the book, we are clearly told:
https://i.postimg.cc/s2x9ch60/RCO007-1468424396.jpg

Not once, but twice:
https://i.postimg.cc/TYQD4PD8/RCO016-1468424313.jpg

Pretty important plot point, no?

But Quantum Superman is explaining to Superman that he wouldn't be annihilated, and to trust him - aftewards, he can still go save Lois:
https://i.postimg.cc/gc8yNdsd/RCO010-1468424396.jpg

Ultimately, even if they combine, Quantum Superman is telling him that in Limbo, they wouldn't be destroyed - because the memory will continue to live on. I mean, we clearly see outsiders (Superman, Ultraman, Shazam , Overman etc) interacting with *things*, so there is clearly *stuff* in Limbo.
https://i.postimg.cc/50F5cMMB/RCO003-1468424396.jpg

So I don't understand what your argument is. Are you arguing that Limbo is just made of memories, no physical matter? Then what are the ships anchoring themselves to? What *trash* are the ships taking? What is the infinite computer of the Ultima Thule reading, interacting with, if it is just metaphysical memory? We even see Shazam pointing out a shard from the Rock of Eternity (and bonus, Overman handling some random tech):
https://i.postimg.cc/xT9m5mqy/RCO018-1468424313.jpg

TL;DR: Limbo has physical matter, but Quantum Superman's statement was merely to reassure Superman that his sacrifice would not mean he would be destroyed, so he can still go on to save Lois afterward. So you are misunderstanding that scan and running with 'there is no physical matter in Limbo' - which is wrong, because Limbo DOES have matter.

Then we go onto the next part of your posts, that because Ultraman read to the end, it isn't infinite. Which is silly, because:

A: you can have a beginning and an end to infinity - there are infinite numbers between 1 &2; and

B: Ultraman was clearly wrong:
https://i.postimg.cc/0N4GHyh5/RCO028-w-1468424313.jpg

The Infinite Book contains every possible book (which was my question to you for six long years, lol):
https://i.postimg.cc/zGcRqP70/RCO019-1468424313.jpg

So all Ultraman did, was read to the end of *A* book, where Mandrakk won. Obviously, Mandrakk...did not win -there is more than one story, after all. Evil did not win.

Carver, you asked. I delivered. Your rebuttal?

That's not a rebuttal, that's you in denial. He clearly states limbo is a living memory but you want to twist these words to mean something else. The cake I'm eating doesnt have icing - what darksaint does... "even though the cake doesn't have icing on it, that doesn't mean that the person who made the cake didn't put icing on it in the beginning and changed their mind and scraped it off". 🤷🏾‍♂️

Limbo doesn't have material things and it is a living memory - said on panel.

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Ultraman read the last page, this was also said on panel. He didn't say he read the last story, he said he read the book until the end, the final chapter. Concrete evidence. Again, you wouldn't deny any of this if it was any other (Marvel) character.

I'll pose the same question/analogy to Astner that I posed to carver, then...

Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed an infinite amount of universes in a finite amount of time, and he did so by wiping them out one by one. Does that mean the pre-crisis multiverse wasn't actually infinite, despite the numerous sources citing it as such?

I am now genuinely curious what your stance is here.

Originally posted by Astner
The reason I'm not accepting Galan's interpretation of "the book was retconned," is because it's not based on the comics. I didn't say "retconned", I said "refined"... Which is absolutely based on what we saw in the comics.

Morrison's take on what the monkey was writing down clearly changed/evolved into something far greater in the decades between Animal Man and Final Crisis... As did his take on the Overvoid, as another example.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll pose the same question/analogy to Astner that I posed to carver, then...

Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed an infinite amount of universes in a finite amount of time, and he did so by wiping them out one by one. Does that mean the pre-crisis multiverse wasn't actually infinite, despite the numerous sources citing it as such?

I am now genuinely curious what your stance is here.
Honestly, I never really bought the idea of the DC Multiverse(or any company's multiverse for that matter) as being truly "infinite". If it were, all but 5 universes couldn't have been destroyed. To me personally, it seemed more like an "infinite potential/possibility" type thing. By the same token, I don't think the Beyonders really destroyed an infinite number of Celestials because that wouldn't have taken a really long time as the narration said, it would have taken an infinite amount of time. Don't get me wrong because I understand how and why many prefer to try to simply take such story elements with a grain of salt and even tried to adjust my thinking to go along with the rest of the forum in cosmic debates way back when, but for me it really does seem so nonsensical that it should be considered hyperbole.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Honestly, I never really bought the idea of the DC Multiverse(or any company's multiverse for that matter) as being truly "infinite". If it were, all but 5 universes couldn't have been destroyed. To me personally, it seemed more like an "infinite potential/possibility" type thing. By the same token, I don't think the Beyonders really destroyed an infinite number of Celestials because that wouldn't have taken a really long time as the narration said, it would have taken an infinite amount of time. Don't get me wrong because I understand how and why many prefer to try to simply take such story elements with a grain of salt and even tried to adjust my thinking to go along with the rest of the forum in cosmic debates way back when, but for me it really does seem so nonsensical that it should be considered hyperbole.
Yeah, there's no bias there.

Originally posted by carver9
That's not a rebuttal, that's you in denial. He clearly states limbo is a living memory but you want to twist these words to mean something else. The cake I'm eating doesnt have icing - what darksaint does... "even though the cake doesn't have icing on it, that doesn't mean that the person who made the cake didn't put icing on it in the beginning and changed their mind and scraped it off". 🤷🏾‍♂️

Limbo doesn't have material things and it is a living memory - said on panel.

https://imgbb.com/G55cvDp

Ultraman read the last page, this was also said on panel. He didn't say he read the last story, he said he read the book until the end, the final chapter. Concrete evidence. Again, you wouldn't deny any of this if it was any other (Marvel) character.

So if it's not material....

What's Billy taking home?

Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> ,
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> ,
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

THAT'S what I said!! Except Astner said we're only dealing with positive integers

Originally posted by Galan007
I'll pose the same question/analogy to Astner that I posed to carver, then...

Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed an infinite amount of universes in a finite amount of time, and he did so by wiping them out one by one. Does that mean the pre-crisis multiverse wasn't actually infinite, despite the numerous sources citing it as such?

I am now genuinely curious what your stance is here.
It's been a very long time since I've read Crisis on Infinte Earths, and I'm not going to proof-check it for this question, but it could very well be the case that infinity is used figuratively here too.

And I'm fairly certain you could make a similar same argument for Marvel with the Incursions during Time Runs Out, but I'm not going to proof-check that either.

Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't say "retconned", I said "refined"... Which is absolutely based on what we saw in the comics.
No. In fact Ultraman contradicts this. If you want to make the argument that Ultraman was wrong, then you'd have to point to where in the comics it's suggested that he's wrong.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.
If we assume that a direction of space is topologically isomorphic to the real numbers, like you do, then sure. But there are still a few issues with this still.

No mapping is going to to evenly distribute the pages, meaning you're going to have some form a convergence at a point, which (if we assume the pages are equally thick) means the pages would have to be infinitesimally thin, and that makes up a zero measure on the reals.

This also follows from the fact the Lebesgue measure of any countable set is zero.

And if they are in order there's not going to be a final page because the integers is an open set.

Originally posted by Magnon
As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/pi) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...
Here you can see a demonstration of what I was talking about. In this case it converges against the number 1.

Originally posted by Magnon
We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> ,
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.
If you're referring to the Extended Integers then no, you can't simply *extend* the Integers, because infinity in the Extended Integers is a non-numerical element with the property of being greater than all numbers, and not just "another number."

Originally posted by Astner
It's been a very long time since I've read Crisis on Infinte Earths, and I'm not going to proof-check it for this question, but it could very well be the case that infinity is used figuratively here too.

And I'm fairly certain you could make a similar same argument for Marvel with the Incursions during Time Runs Out, but I'm not going to proof-check that either. Hmm. So instead of accepting the dozens of sources explicitly stating that each continuity contained infinite universes, you feel that it is more logical to ignore all of that and assume that neither is actually infinite... Even though we are dealing with a fictional genre, where the "impossible"(like an alien Jesus who flies around shooting laser beams out of his eyes and lifting earth-weight) happens all the time.

Interesting... This is a very slippery slope.

Originally posted by Astner
No. In fact Ultraman contradicts this. If you want to make the argument that Ultraman was wrong, then you'd have to point to where in the comics it's suggested that he's wrong. I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying here.

Originally posted by Astner
No mapping is going to to evenly distribute the pages, meaning you're going to have some form a convergence at a point, which (if we assume the pages are equally thick) means the pages would have to be infinitesimally thin, and that makes up a zero measure on the reals.
There's no requirement for the pages to be evenly spaced. Quite naturally, if you fit an infinite number of pages within a finite interval they cannot have a fixed finite spacing between them. So (most) pages would need to be infinitesimally thin or they'd need to overlap in space. Or, the interior of the book would have to be described by some weird non-Euclidean geometry / non-Euclidean metric. Lots of possibilities.

Originally posted by Astner
And if they are in order there's not going to be a final page because the integers is an open set.
In my example, we can define the final page to be the unique page at x=1. There are no pages at larger x-values.

Originally posted by Astner
If you're referring to the Extended Integers then no, you can't simply *extend* the Integers, because infinity in the Extended Integers is a non-numerical element with the property of being greater than all numbers, and not just "another number."
I'm extending the map. The infinity in my example can be just a label without any additional meaning beyond being an element of a set. It simply labels the final page, i.e. the page at x=1.

Originally posted by Magnon
or they'd need to overlap in space.

That sounds like the comic depicts

"A book with an infinite number of pages, all occupying the same space"
https://ibb.co/D5F45nC

The bio
"A single book with infinite pages, all cuupying the same space"
https://i.ibb.co/hCnrPsG/3.png

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I actually would say SBP's showing against DK( the evil Batman) in Dark Nights: Death Metal The Secret Origin is more impressive than the Crises Punch. Though it isn't a pure strength feat per se.

Besides, I think that story is the best in the Death Metal event and it also is a perfect conclusion for SBP's journey. I personally recommand you to read it

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Dark-Nights-Death-Metal-The-Secret-Origin

Okay, read it. Seems he destroyed the proto-multiverse that DK was in the process of creating.



Okay, I just checked that and you're right.

Originally posted by abhilegend

The very nature of the COIE means it has to involve infinite Earths. So did Final Crisis. The events differed such that the villains won.

We didn't see infinite Earths, though. We just saw the Anti-Monitor in a child/dwarf form sitting in a white void (what happened to his classic form? I guess they changed it because it would look silly if he was talking to Batman while at his full size, and shrinking him down but keeping the classic form would also look silly).

And why did Darkseid in the alternate Final Crisis world have horns? I don't remember that from the original FC. I don't think we can just assume there were multiverses involved in each of them.



I would say it does, as if she was getting energy from 3 infinite multiverses, conquering one multiverse of 52 universes wouldn't be taking so long.

There was also the fact that Wonder Woman was trying to tell SBP that if he helped them, they could create a new multiverse that was truly infinite, and SBP at first didn't like the idea, because it meant there could be other universes that would threaten his. So that implies that, in universe he was in at the time, there wasn't an infinite multiverse.

Originally posted by Astner
It's called the "Infinite Book," but it clearly wasn't literally infinite because the monkey who wrote it died.

I wasn't talking about the book there, I was talking about Hulk and Ironclad.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
100 tons ain't that much irl --- two heavy tanks can easily weight more than that.

Yeah, but if you treat everything by real-world standards (which is what he was saying, I think), a person could never lift 100 tons. And even if there was some kind of way to make a person that strong in real life (future technology like cyborg implants or power armor, etc.) it still wouldn't work the same way it does in fiction, because if they still stood on two feet, the pressure would cause them to sink into the ground.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Honestly, I never really bought the idea of the DC Multiverse(or any company's multiverse for that matter) as being truly "infinite". If it were, all but 5 universes couldn't have been destroyed. To me personally, it seemed more like an "infinite potential/possibility" type thing. By the same token, I don't think the Beyonders really destroyed an infinite number of Celestials because that wouldn't have taken a really long time as the narration said, it would have taken an infinite amount of time. Don't get me wrong because I understand how and why many prefer to try to simply take such story elements with a grain of salt and even tried to adjust my thinking to go along with the rest of the forum in cosmic debates way back when, but for me it really does seem so nonsensical that it should be considered hyperbole.

Well when you get to cosmic stuff, time is a factor that doesn't operate how you would intuitively expect it to. A reality warper could destroy or create something in zero time at all, or even in negative time (doing it retroactively, by altering the past). RL physics even predicts such phenomena as 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time]imaginary time', which is time defined in terms of imaginary numbers, neither negative nor positive as we understand them.

So trying to apply our mundane conceptions of time as we experience it day-to-day doesn't really work in these kinds of scenarios.

Originally posted by Magnon
Mathematically, there are no issues with mapping a countably infinite set (of pages) to a finite real interval (e.g. to within the finite thickness of the book). And this book can easily feature a well-defined first and last page, as well.

As a constructive example we can define our x,y,z-coordinate system such that the book's front page lies in the x=0 plane and the final page in the x=1 plane, giving the book a unit thickness. Now we can map our countably infinite set of pages to this interval by using the following function:

f: {1,2,3,....} --> (0,1),
f(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k)

where k is the page number and f(k) its (x-)location within the book. For example, the positions of the first three pages would be:

f(1) = 0.5
f(2) = 0.704...
f(3) = 0.795...

We can now *extend* this map to include the front page (defined to have the page number 0) and the final page (+∞ ) as well:

g: {1,2,3,....} ∪ {0 , +∞ } --> ,
g(k) = ( 2/π ) * arctan(k) for all finite positive k,
g(0) = 0,
g(+∞ ) = 1.

Thus, the front page would be found at x=0, and the final page at x=1, *and* the book would still have countably infinite number of pages.

There are other issues, though, such as with physics. If the claim is that because the book has infinite pages, then it has infinite mass, and thus infinite weight, then:

1. Why doesn't it collapse into a black hole?

2. Why is there another gravity field around it? The book itself is sitting on top of something before anyone lifts it. If it had infinite weight/mass, it would also have infinite gravity, so everything would be pulled towards/orbiting around the book itself. So that means that the gravity field it's in is stronger than its own gravity - gravity stronger than infinite gravity? And everyone standing in that same gravity field is already using stronger than infinite strength just to stand and move.

The obvious answer is that the physics in Limbo are different. But that kind of torpedoes the argument of using it as a strength feat, because if the physics are so different, you can't prove that it would require infinite strength to lift, even if it did literally have infinite pages.

Anyway, here is my ranking of all of the strength feats posted in this thread so far:

1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys 3 (or more) universes with a punch
4. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
5. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
6. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
7. Superboy throws mini neutron star
8. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
9. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
10. Superman changes diamond into coal
11. Superman catches 2 ton weight

* I don't

** Ranked lower because they are shared feats

Originally posted by Galan007
Hmm. So instead of accepting the dozens of sources explicitly stating that each continuity contained infinite universes, you feel that it is more logical to ignore all of that and assume that neither is actually infinite... Even though we are dealing with a fictional genre, where the "impossible"(like an alien Jesus who flies around shooting laser beams out of his eyes and lifting earth-weight) happens all the time.

Interesting... This is a very slippery slope.
You're at the same page as abhi here.

Infinity can be used figuratively and it can be used literally, and a repeated figurative use of a term doesn't translate into a literal use of it.

We determine whether a use is figurative or literal by the context. If "infinity" refers to the number of stars in the galaxy, we take it as being figurative. If it refers to a value greater than any finite value then we take it as being literal.

When it comes to the Infinite Earths, has there been any cases for a literal use? Probably. And those cases would have to be weighted against the cases for figurative uses to determine which interpretation is appropriate.

But that's not relevant when it comes to the Infinite Book because there are no contexts for literal interpertations of infinity as it pertains to it in the stories we're discussing.

Originally posted by Magnon
There's no requirement for the pages to be evenly spaced. Quite naturally, if you fit an infinite number of pages within a finite interval they cannot have a fixed finite spacing between them. So (most) pages would need to be infinitesimally thin or they'd need to overlap in space. Or, the interior of the book would have to be described by some weird non-Euclidean geometry / non-Euclidean metric. Lots of possibilities.
It's extremely problematic to have to resort to explanations like pages of variable widths or parameterized spaces to justify an argument when there are no implications of their implementation.

Sure, it's easy to prove things if you don't have to commit to anything. But at that point you might as well embrace a contradiction and use it to prove anything via ex falso quodlibet.

Originally posted by Magnon
I'm extending the map. The infinity in my example can be just a label without any additional meaning beyond being an element of a set. It simply labels the final page, i.e. the page at x=1.
Then you're not using infinity. You're simply using an unspecified element which you conventiently decided to call "infinity."

That resolved, the problem is that your composition map isn't linear, which is something that you can require by saying that the pages have to be in order. So you can't select "one random page" and requrie it to be the final page.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anyway, here is my ranking of all of the strength feats posted in this thread so far:

1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys 3 (or more) universes with a punch
4. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
5. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
6. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
7. Superboy throws mini neutron star
8. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
9. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
10. Superman changes diamond into coal
11. Superman catches 2 ton weight

* I don't

** Ranked lower because they are shared feats

Personally, I would argue some writers did take the word "infinite" as the literal sense when writing their works, but without knowing the implication of infinity(pretty much like lightspeed).

So Ultraman/Superman and Shazam's lifting infinite book and Hulk's infinite dimensions feats to 6 or somewhere below universal-feats

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Personally, I would argue some writers did take the word "infinite" as the literal sense when writing their works, but without knowing the implication of infinity(pretty much like lightspeed).

So Ultraman/Superman and Shazam's lifting infinite book and Hulk's infinite dimensions feats to 6 or somewhere below universal-feats

Well I'm just going by the face value for the list (even if I don't buy it) because otherwise it gets way too subjective.