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I take it this is another semi-joke ?

Well, Dooku, considered by many as Mace's inferior, was able to put a good fight against similar Kenobi, and Skywalker, who fought on Much higher level then this Vader. Shouldn't it be one-sided here?

Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.

Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.

Honestly ROTS Anakin would solo. As would amped (protecting the twins) Kenobi.

Not sure about Vader from Kenobi. Hes a force beast, but if Kenobi (before his focused amp) can force him back in Sabers, then I can imagine Windu being all over him.

Vader solidly bested Kenobi before his focused amp.

And given that Kenobi had "regained his strength" before the added amp, it implies that Vader was already beyond his ROTS self. I'd reckon that either of the team could solo. Both of them together just makes it spite.

I know some people hate the notion that Vader and Kenobi were above the likes of Mace and Dooku in this era, but it ain't 2005 anymore. Things change.

^
Emm... not?

Kenobi did a mistake by attacking Vader with TK. Before that, Vader lost his balance due to Kenobi's superior bladework. Kenobi did something, that he didn''t before - was agressive and constantly pushed Vader back. Kenobi was clearly superior swordsman.

Originally posted by Sheev
I know some people hate the notion that Vader and Kenobi were above the likes of Mace and Dooku in this era, but it ain't 2005 anymore. Things change.


I dont mind given they are the Two OG Jedi/Sith characters.

Originally posted by McP
^
Emm... not?

Kenobi did a mistake by attacking Vader with TK. Before that, Vader lost his balance due to Kenobi's superior bladework. Kenobi did something, that he didn''t before - was agressive and constantly pushed Vader back. Kenobi was clearly superior swordsman. I'm talking all out here. Kenobi had "regained his strength" and was definitely fighting more aggressively then he did in ROTS (which would have arguably put him above his ROTS level), and Vader still beat him decisively in the end. It was only after Kenobi gained the extra focus amp that he was above Vader.

So Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dont mind given they are the Two OG Jedi/Sith characters. I agree. But some people are still stuck in the same mindset they had almost 20 years ago. Things change; it is what it is.

^
Kenobi just fought differently. He had like 0 practice since ROTS possibly, even Vader declared that his strenght returned. Retunerd doesn't mean that he was stronger then before, just because he was more agressive. It's nothing more then a different style of fighting. And he had an advantage in saber fight since the very beginning, not after amp.

You also said, that Anakin bested Dooku with ease. Fine double standard from you. Anakin, in their last two fights, was Dooku's inferior (marginally, but still). Dooku was kicking him, in their TCW fight was constantly forcing him back, while Kenobi was there. Anakin overhelmed him in a second part of the final duel, because of his dark side amp.
When Kenobi is beating Vader its only due to amp and is overally inferior, but when Anakin's doing the same thing, he's far superior, yes?

I don't care if Dooku or Mace are above or below Vader or Kenobi. I like all of them. But it's not about that. Dooku was superior fighter to Kenobi in ROTS. Dooku performed far better then ROTS Kenobi then Vader against his similar version. We can even asume that this second duel between Vader and Kenobi ended when Kenobi was buried. Still, Dooku did a better work then Vader against Kenobi.

Originally posted by McP
^
Kenobi just fought differently. He had like 0 practice since ROTS possibly, even Vader declared that his strenght returned. Retunerd doesn't mean that he was stronger then before, just because he was more agressive. It's nothing more then a different style of fighting. And he had an advantage in saber fight since the very beginning, not after amp.

You also said, that Anakin bested Dooku with ease. Fine double standard from you. Anakin, in their last two fights, was Dooku's inferior (marginally, but still). Dooku was kicking him, in their TCW fight was constantly forcing him back, while Kenobi was there. Anakin overhelmed him in a second part of the final duel, because of his dark side amp.
When Kenobi is beating Vader its only due to amp and is overally inferior, but when Anakin's doing the same thing, he's far superior, yes?

I don't care if Dooku or Mace are above or below Vader or Kenobi. I like all of them. But it's not about that. Dooku was superior fighter to Kenobi in ROTS. Dooku performed far better then ROTS Kenobi then Vader against his similar version. We can even asume that this second duel between Vader and Kenobi ended when Kenobi was buried. Still, Dooku did a better work then Vader against Kenobi. Yes Anakin stomped Dooku after briefly channeling the dark side, but that's a moot point since that is how Vader always fights.

When Vader said Kenobi's strength had returned, I assume it meant that he was back at the overall level he was at by the end of ROTS (that would surely be Vader's measuring stick, since he constantly brooded over that loss). And I believe it was stated in a canon source that Kenobi was "channeling the force like never before" when he fought Anakin on Mustafar.

So in other words, Kenobi (with focus amp) > Vader > Kenobi (with strength returned + fighting agro) =/> ROTS Kenobi (end of movie) > ROTS Kenobi (beginning of movie).

TL;DR
Mace's best legit feat in canon is being a peer of Dooku in sabers, so there's really no way he's beating this team IMO. At a bare minimum, each member of the team should be close to his level in sabers, and they should each be able to dominate him with TK (since they both have TK showings that are worlds beyond anything Mace has done in canon). Hell I'd argue that Mace would actually do WORSE against this team than Dooku would, since he doesn't even have the option of spamming lightning.

Both solo

Mismatch

I'm not sure they are better swordsmen then him, but they dominate him with TK.

Originally posted by Sheev
ROTS Kenobi (end of movie) > ROTS Kenobi (beginning of movie).

Evidence for that statement? It's not a dragon ball, lol. Kenobi didn't progress after any defeat or battle. He has 3 years of war, he progresset constantly but slowly, and suddenly, he's clearly > himself just a few days ago? It sounds prtetty stupid for me. But since it's shitsney... who knows, perhaps that's more then what's you're thinking of it.

Originally posted by Sheev
Hell I'd argue that Mace would actually do WORSE against this team than Dooku would, since he doesn't even have the option of spamming lightning.

Dooku wasn't using a Force at all in their last fight in TCW, and he did in ROTS after he got an advantage in a saberlock with them. Aside of that he once Force pushed Kenobi ealier.

Originally posted by Sheev
Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.

Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.

Is there new canon material that confirms Sidious was toying with Mace?

Also, I believe Mace is still Yoda/Sidious level.

"A respected Jedi with powers on par with those of venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary."

Source: Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #008

I guess it's a legends source that was relaunched and is considered canon once more?

Overall, I agree with your logic in this thread. Well said!

I'd just like to point out that it's still not clear whether Palpatine really threw the fight against Mace.

Post #45 by Lord_Tenebrous has some interesting and fairly recent canon quotes which still seem to imply the opposite:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rots-windu-vs-vader-kenobi-2267581/

If we go by some of those quotes, Mace is probably still Yoda/Palpatine level.

Originally posted by JediMaster97
I'd just like to point out that it's still not clear whether Palpatine really threw the fight against Mace.

Post #45 by Lord_Tenebrous has some interesting and fairly recent canon quotes which still seem to imply the opposite:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rots-windu-vs-vader-kenobi-2267581/

If we go by some of those quotes, Mace is probably still Yoda/Palpatine level. That guy used a lot of Legends sources to try and make his case, but that's not how it works. The Episode I-VI novels are non canon (Matt Martin has been very clear about this). Same with statements made by Lucas and Gillard. Aside from the main movies and TCW, nothing released before 2014 matters in new canon. And in new canon, the more current sources become the most authoritative, because it is still a fluid medium. Changes can happen at any time.

So with all that being said, new canon has left the true outcome of the Mace vs. Sidious fight pretty vague in virtually every source..... That is until the "Star Wars Encyclopedia (De Agostini) #83" was released (which is the most recent and canon source). And it flatout states that states that Sidious WAS toying with Mace the entire time, so that's what we should go by until it is contradicted by a different canon source.

But if you choose to ignore that source for whatever reason, then we are only left with vagueness and headcanon, because no other source in new canon clarifies what exactly happened.

Nah that is still pretty ambiguous tbh. Especially when you consider how this line meshes with the rest of the statement-
"Palpatine had orchestrated so much of Anakin's life to ensure Skywalker would become his apprentice at just the right moment."

For instance; I could easily interpret that line as meaning that Sidious orchestrated his seeming "defeat" at the hands of Mace in order to definitively push Anakin to the dark side. iow he faked being weak and beaten in order to get what he wanted (I.e. a new apprentice).


But my point is only that the De Agostini source is very clear cut-
"The lightsabers may well have been unbreakable, but that did not prevent one of them from being lost during Palpatine's battle with Mace Windu. Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon-to-be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Windu to deliver a kick to his chest."

There is nothing ambiguous about that.

It's funny how Mace-fans use a Stover's novel to prove anything about Mace. Best statement about Mace is still Gillard's "level 9" or "bordering level 9".

But there is many quotes in Stover's novel against Mace, I don't have a book, so without quotes:
1. After Anakin bested Dooku Jedi Council believed that it is a proof that he can stand against Sidious, while Council believed that Mace needed other masters' aid to be able to confront Sidious;
2. Mace's shatterpoint is often use as a Mace great weapon. Mace believed that Sidious' fear forced him to be slower after he destroyed a window; later Sidious stated that it wasn't his fear that Mace felt but Anakin's;
3. Vaapad wasn't enough for Palpatine's FL, Mace was goint to loose, same is shown in ROTS comicbook;
4. Anakin after he saw Sidious' performacne against Macee believed that he can beat Sidious;

But as I know that it's a non-canon now, it's an off-top

Originally posted by McP
Evidence for that statement? It's not a dragon ball, lol. Kenobi didn't progress after any defeat or battle. He has 3 years of war, he progresset constantly but slowly, and suddenly, he's clearly > himself just a few days ago? It sounds prtetty stupid for me. But since it's shitsney... who knows, perhaps that's more then what's you're thinking of it.





I mean we know now he can suddenly amp up mid-fight. So him amping from the beginning of a film to the end wouldn't be too strange at all. Especially given how the stakes had completely changed.

That said, he would need a serious amp to even get to Dooku's level.

Originally posted by Sheev
IIRC, Galan posted the source a while back, but I can't find it (the search function is crap here). I did?

Don't remember posting that specific line off-hand(I'll have to go back and look.) It's entirely possible, and would make sense -- especially with what we know about Kenobi now. I do remember a source stating that Kenobi had to use "all of his power" to defeat Anakin, but that's a bit different than what you mentioned.

Although more sources than not state that Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin for two main reasons:
a.) Anakin's overconfidence(and possible instability.)
b.) Kenobi's intimate knowledge of Anakin's fighting style(as a result of them fighting side-by-side for so long.)

...Which also makes sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
I did?

Don't remember posting that specific line off-hand(I'll have to go back and look.) It's entirely possible, and would make sense -- especially with what we know about Kenobi now. I do remember a source stating that Kenobi had to use "all of his power" to defeat Anakin, but that's a bit different than what you mentioned. Ahh well it may not have been you then. I'm positive the statement was posted here a few years ago, but I can't find it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Although more sources than not state that Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin for two main reasons:
a.) Anakin's overconfidence(and possible instability.)
b.) Kenobi's intimate knowledge of Anakin's fighting style(as a result of them fighting side-by-side for so long.)

...Which also makes sense. Couldn't those factors also hold true for their fight in the show?

Originally posted by Sheev
Couldn't those factors also hold true for their fight in the show? An argument could be made that Vader was emotionally compromised(and therefore hindered) to some extent against Kenobi, sure.

However, after Vader started getting used to the armor, he began developing a new lightsaber style in order to overcome the bulk of his suit. So Kenobi wouldn't have had knowledge of his new style at all.

^ I guess he's changed the more technical aspects, but they did imply a similar fighting mentality that Kenobi is used to taking advantage of. And there was that mirror image move from the flashback that played out again.

Originally posted by Sheev
Since we now know that Sidious was just toying with Mace when they fought in ROTS, Mace's best feat is being a peer of Dooku.

Meanwhile, this version of Vader (while not yet at his peak) should still at least be on the level of ROTS Anakin, who owned Dooku with ease. Then add in Kenobi (who was > Vader at this point) and it becomes an absolute stomp for the team.
Mace does have lasting 5 minuites against Anakin from the rots game

Anyway Kenobi wins. He was able to last an ungodly amount of time against a much stronger force user. Kenobi benefitted from familairity but it's still an insane physical feat and Mace has no avenue to outperform Anakin here. He's a much dumber fighter than Dooku, has less raw power than Anakin and his lightsaber style leaves him vulnerable(gillard defensively. Kenobi can tank anything Mace throws at him and Mace will leave openings which Kenobi will exploit.

Either Vader or Kenobi could arguably solo here

Well surely not Kenobi lmao