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H2H only, Diana has no physical superhuman powers, just left with her intense combat skills with no weapons for either, who wins?

If it's equalized stats then slight edge to Widow.

If Diana is reduced to actual "human" stats then Widow stomps.

Originally posted by Smurph
If it's equalized stats then slight edge to Widow.

If Diana is reduced to actual "human" stats then Widow stomps.

Is that because you give an advantage to WWs experience at that level?

I don't follow

Why wouldn't Widow stomp at equalised stats as well, am curious.

Oh I just think Widow's base stats border on superhuman. So if Widow wins with equalized stats then her advantage is that much greater if Wonder Woman has worse stats.

As to 'stomp' vs 'slight edge' yeah, maybe I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt to Diana. Widow varies a bit but her highs are definitely above where I'd place powerless Diana.

Originally posted by Smurph
Oh I just think Widow's base stats border on superhuman. So if Widow wins with equalized stats then her advantage is that much greater if Wonder Woman has worse stats.

As to 'stomp' vs 'slight edge' yeah, maybe I'm giving too much benefit of the doubt to Diana. Widow varies a bit but her highs are definitely above where I'd place powerless Diana.
Widow is a peak human right (by real world standards)? So WW having peak human ability (by real world standards) would mean that the are approximately physical equals.

Originally posted by h1a8
Widow is a peak human right (by real world standards)? are you asking a question or making an assertion

Don't believe that Widow is more skilled than Diana.

Diana easy.

Based on?

Depends on how highly you value Black Widows skill and how much emphasis you put on high level martial arts compared to Wonder Womans combat training.

You had Deathstroke dancing around Wonder Woman and saying how her old greek fighting skills don't compare with the plethora of various martial arts he knew. Obviously that in itself is a weird execution of an idea, but his point still stands. We would never rank Wonder Woman as a better fighter than your Karate Kids and Lady Shivas.

I'd back Black Widow. I think overall her fighting ability has to be higher than Wonder Womans, who sometimes survives on her stats alone. Black Widow requires skill to survive.

^ yeah

I wouldn't give a powerless Wonder Woman odds against Taskmaster, Elektra, or Lady Bullseye but Widow either beat or stalemated each of them. I don't think Diana would beat Punisher as decisively, either.

Widow has just gotten a significant push.

It's strange because both ladies have had films come out which normally means a push in the comics, but Widow had more of one than WW.

Originally posted by Smurph
are you asking a question or making an assertion

See the question mark?

Originally posted by Enzeru
Depends on how highly you value Black Widows skill and how much emphasis you put on high level martial arts compared to Wonder Womans combat training.

You had Deathstroke dancing around Wonder Woman and saying how her old greek fighting skills don't compare with the plethora of various martial arts he knew. Obviously that in itself is a weird execution of an idea, but his point still stands. We would never rank Wonder Woman as a better fighter than your Karate Kids and Lady Shivas.

I'd back Black Widow. I think overall her fighting ability has to be higher than Wonder Womans, who sometimes survives on her stats alone. Black Widow requires skill to survive.

If you A B compare characters then use their best non contradictory showings. Don't use the best for one and a lower for another. That gives a sense of bias and not objectivity.

Writer's intent is That WW is very comparable to Batman at h2h.
Writer's intent.

Originally posted by h1a8
Widow is a peak human right (by real world standards)?
No. She's above real world peak humans. Virtually all major street levelers are.

And Natasha was biochemically enhanced which offers some explanation other than just "I trained hard."

Originally posted by StyleTime
No. She's above real world peak humans. Virtually all major street levelers are.

And Natasha was biochemically enhanced which offers some explanation other than just "I trained hard." There are no peak humans in the real world. A peak human is the strongest a human can possibly be. It's a theoretical limit. She's definitely peak human (not superhuman by any stretch).

Biochemical enchance didn't increase her strength. It affects other factors, like aging, healing, etc.

If WW starts at peak human (equal to BW) then WW wins
If WW starts at 80% of Black widow then it's a toss up

Originally posted by h1a8


Writer's intent is That WW is very comparable to Batman at h2h.
Writer's intent. Proof?

Originally posted by h1a8
She's definitely peak human (not superhuman by any stretch).

Biochemical enchance didn't increase her strength. It affects other factors, like aging, healing, etc.
Proof?

Originally posted by Smurph
Proof? Proof of what?

I seen her feats. She didn't do anything from my memory that makes me believe no human can ever do. Even if she did then it's probably a 1 off feat. Everything about her appears to be peak human.

Unless you are asking for proof that WW can beat her with equal stats?

-Writers intent is that WW is very comparable to Batman
-Biochemical enhancements specifically enhanced things other than physical stats

Originally posted by Smurph
-Writers intent is that WW is very comparable to Batman
-Biochemical enhancements specifically enhanced things other than physical stats

They were dating, Bruce was being nice.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Depends on how highly you value Black Widows skill and how much emphasis you put on high level martial arts compared to Wonder Womans combat training.

You had Deathstroke dancing around Wonder Woman and saying how her old greek fighting skills don't compare with the plethora of various martial arts he knew. Obviously that in itself is a weird execution of an idea, but his point still stands. We would never rank Wonder Woman as a better fighter than your Karate Kids and Lady Shivas.

I'd back Black Widow. I think overall her fighting ability has to be higher than Wonder Womans, who sometimes survives on her stats alone. Black Widow requires skill to survive.

She was also wearing high heels and a dress.


And Slade also matches Cass, who Batman actually admitted he'd lose to in a straight up fight.


Course, that might not mean much if you don't rate Cass (I know some on KMC don't, in spite of a pretty solid list of feats in her series).

Originally posted by Enzeru
Depends on how highly you value Black Widows skill and how much emphasis you put on high level martial arts compared to Wonder Womans combat training.

You had Deathstroke dancing around Wonder Woman and saying how her old greek fighting skills don't compare with the plethora of various martial arts he knew. Obviously that in itself is a weird execution of an idea, but his point still stands. We would never rank Wonder Woman as a better fighter than your Karate Kids and Lady Shivas.

I'd back Black Widow. I think overall her fighting ability has to be higher than Wonder Womans, who sometimes survives on her stats alone. Black Widow requires skill to survive.


Woah woah WOAH!


Karate Kid? Karate Kid??

I know Stiltman likes to joke how he can't fight his way out of a way paper bag unless he's fighting Superman, but logically every single time he never splattered a street like Vegeta fighting some C lister is logically PIS. You don't match Daxamites both in terms of feats and NARRATIVE (E.g., no room for PIS) yet struggle against peak human.

Originally posted by Smurph
-Writers intent is that WW is very comparable to Batman
-Biochemical enhancements specifically enhanced things other than physical stats If I wrong then please provide proof. But from what I read, it's to make her miscarriage, slow aging, speed up healing, etc. Stat increase was never mentioned.

Let's assume she is increased in stats from a normal woman. Whether it was due to biochemicals or not is irrelevant. We go by her feats to determine her level of stats.

So I can agree that biochemical makes her stronger. But she's not stronger than a human can possibly be, according to her showings.


I believe the 2 have sparred on near even terms. I don't have scans.

Fair enough

On the scale of reacting to bullets after they're fired, where do we rank this?
https://imgur.io/a/lSi8XFO

Originally posted by Smurph
Fair enough

On the scale of reacting to bullets after they're fired, where do we rank this?
https://imgur.io/a/lSi8XFO

She heard the round, aim dodging equivalent. I do it all the time when making drug deals.

Originally posted by cdtm
She heard the round, aim dodging equivalent. I do it all the time when making drug deals.

I doubt much lead is flying when you satisfy your caffeine addiction.

lmao how is hearing a round being fired and moving at all like aim dodging

did she hear where the round was about to be? did those biochemical enhancements give her ears a spidey sense?

Originally posted by Smurph
lmao how is hearing a round being fired and moving at all like aim dodging

did she hear where the round was about to be? did those biochemical enhancements give her ears a spidey sense?

The sound gave her a cue. *Click*, "Oh must be a bullet *sidestep* *fire*

As opposed to *Hey, is that a bullet coming at me?" *Sidestep*


Totally super human, but so is aim dodging. You try keeping ahead of a guy shooting a gun by keeping ahead of his aim.

Originally posted by cdtm
*Hey, is that a bullet coming at me?" *Sidestep*
this is not aim dodging

Originally posted by Smurph
this is not aim dodging

His original post was calling it the equivalent to aim dodging. The description he gave I agree would be similar to it.

I wouldn't

Aim dodging is knowing where the bullet will be based on where the shooter is aiming at, then moving before the shooter fires.

That scan is.....moving after the bullet was fired.

^ lol exactly

plus, unless you're Daredevil, the sound of a bullet doesn't tell you where the shooter is aiming. There's no analogy here.

Originally posted by Smurph
Based on?

Based on the fact that Killer Croc of all people was giving her h2h tips.

vin

But Stilt, she sparred with Bruce

She was lucky Batman was only sparring

Does current Widow have slightly enhanced stats? Something similar to the Super Soldier Serum?

I think H1s % are accurate... how could % not be?

Originally posted by Smurph
Fair enough

On the scale of reacting to bullets after they're fired, where do we rank this?
https://imgur.io/a/lSi8XFO h1 what's your take?

Here comes the space numbers. Lol

Originally posted by Smurph
I wouldn't

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Aim dodging is knowing where the bullet will be based on where the shooter is aiming at, then moving before the shooter fires.

That scan is.....moving after the bullet was fired.

I had interpreted cdtm's argument as she reacted to the mechanical sounds of the gun, not the bullet.

Also Smurph, is that supposed to be Daredevil giving tye narration in the scan?

Then he's misreading: she reacts in a "split second of animal instinct" to the "sound of a suppressed sniper round"

And no, she is narrating. The cite is Black Widow (2014) #7

Originally posted by Smurph
h1 what's your take? At face value she most likely reacted after the bullet was fired. Small chance she heard a click before the fire.

Assuming she heard the shot, the problem is that she was able to make a sizeable movement in the time interval of hearing the shot and the bullet hitting dude.
If she has no other comparable feats (every other showing contradicts) then it's just bad writing and most likely PIS.

"IDLI, IDH"

So what about this?
https://imgur.com/a/jGTWd

Originally posted by Smurph
So what about this?
https://imgur.com/a/jGTWd

Is that Canon? If so then what issue?

Daredevil (1998) #63

And, sparring with Bruce is fine, but this (while injured) is better.

https://imgur.io/a/wl0WyBD

Feats are feats. /shrug

TBH, I doubt giving the issue number would actually have any meaning, since h1a8 most likely won't read it

Wild that he's like "every other showing contradicts" when he knows that the whole board knows that he has read exactly 0 of those showings

Originally posted by Smurph
And, sparring with Bruce is fine, but this (while injured) is better.

https://imgur.io/a/wl0WyBD

Feats are feats. /shrug

They weren't injured during the fight?

No, she basically just walked out of the ICU after undergoing major abdominal surgery, right before those scans.

None of these feats are beyond what a peak Human-1, Adaptation 8 can do.

and we haven't even posted the Taskmaster fight yet

Every other showing of Widow contradicts this one two three showings of her being beyond a peak human.

That's ok, I'll just redefine what peak human means.

https://i.ibb.co/jMSrQrB/1.jpg

Lmao. Yeah, agreed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Every other showing of Widow contradicts this one two three showings of her being beyond a peak human.

That's ok, I'll just redefine what peak human means.

"if" is a very important word. Learning it's meaning will prevent you from appearing stupid.

Reread my post, focus on the word "if".

Originally posted by Smurph
Daredevil (1998) #63

So it's Canon. So that's 2 comparable feats, although the first one is significantly better than the 2nd. Probably enough? Up for debate.

Originally posted by h1a8
"if" is a very important word. Learning it's meaning will prevent you from appearing stupid.

Reread my post, focus on the word "if".

Calm down, lol.

Well, y'all were kind enough to provide feats.

I still see something fundamentally wrong with h1's entire premise though.

Black Widow requires feats.

This mythical real life peak human only requires hypothetical speculation that a real human might maybe possibly perform comic feats if we use our imaginations.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Does current Widow have slightly enhanced stats? Something similar to the Super Soldier Serum?

Been that way for a while now, it's not a new thing.

First mentioned in 1999, I believe.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, y'all were kind enough to provide feats.

I still see something fundamentally wrong with h1's entire premise though.

Black Widow requires feats.

This mythical real life peak human only requires hypothetical speculation that a real human might maybe possibly perform comic feats if we use our imaginations. I understand your confusion. Allow me to explain:

Originally posted by h1a8
If I wrong then please provide proof.



I don't have scans.

In Black Widow's case, multiple feats and citations aren't enough to displace h1's preconceived belief based on, I can only assume, the tiers thread and her Wikipedia entry.

In Wonder Woman's case, h1 doesn't need to provide feats or citations, just his recollection of "writer's intent":

Originally posted by h1a8

Writer's intent is That WW is very comparable to Batman at h2h.
Writer's intent.

Funny how the Venn diagram between "writer's intent" and "my personal impression of the character" is... a circle

Let me tell you about my left index finger....

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, y'all were kind enough to provide feats.

I still see something fundamentally wrong with h1's entire premise though.

Black Widow requires feats.

This mythical real life peak human only requires hypothetical speculation that a real human might maybe possibly perform comic feats if we use our imaginations. What's my premise?

Originally posted by h1a8
We go by her feats to determine her level of stats.
Do we now. Would you say we need to actually see scans as proof of something?

That thing Galan's always doing?


Just assumed he was insulting everyone's intelligence by showing them things they already knew. I always figured he was just weird, educating know it alls.


...uh, not against you specifically DS, I'm doing a everyone on KMC rant right now..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do we now. Would you say we need to actually see scans as proof of something? Start giving direct statements. No more trap games. Make your point and make it clear

Originally posted by h1a8
Start giving direct statements. No more trap games. Make your point and make it clear

Seems pretty clear to me. He's posted scans, while you haven't even given a citation.

Originally posted by h1a8
What's my premise?
Originally posted by h1a8
A peak human is the strongest a human can possibly be. It's a theoretical limit.
Originally posted by h1a8

She didn't do anything from my memory that makes me believe no human can ever do.
i.e.
Originally posted by StyleTime

Black Widow requires feats.

This mythical real life peak human only requires hypothetical speculation that a real human might maybe possibly perform comic feats if we use our imaginations.

Originally posted by Smurph
I understand your confusion. Allow me to explain:
Ahhh, makes sense now.

Originally posted by StyleTime
i.e.

The 2 quotes from me are true statements. Therefore there is nothing wrong with them. The last quote is your own.

Originally posted by cdtm
She heard the round, aim dodging equivalent. I do it all the time when making drug deals. Technically, her instinct had her moving before she actually heard the sound? Still... heck of a feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
Start giving direct statements. No more trap games. Make your point and make it clear

You're a hypocrite, is my point, and it's not worth engaging you in serious discussion because you contribute nothing whatsoever.

Originally posted by h1a8
The 2 quotes from me are true statements. Therefore there is nothing wrong with them. The last quote is your own.

Well, no. There is something wrong with your statements -- there is no reason to believe a real life human could hypothetically do these things.

People have been desensitized to peak street feats because they are seen so often, but they are absolutely beyond what a human could hope achieve.

Even the common trope of a street hero disarming/evading/beating a room full of trained, armed gunmen is so wildly beyond human limits that you'd need to cough up some pretty extraordinary evidence to say otherwise. They'd look like blurs in real life, and a human isn't replicating that without external enhancements.

Straight up...even Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake aren't achievable goals for a real person. Not even in theory.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, no. There is something wrong with your statements -- there is no reason to believe a real life human could hypothetically do these things.

People have been desensitized to peak street feats because they are seen so often, but they are absolutely beyond what a human could hope achieve.

Even the common trope of a street hero disarming/evading/beating a room full of trained, armed gunmen is so wildly beyond human limits that you'd need to cough up some pretty extraordinary evidence to say otherwise. They'd look like blurs in real life, and a human isn't replicating that without external enhancements.

Straight up...even Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake aren't achievable goals for a real person. Not even in theory.

This is what I stated

The key is, "from my memory".

After that 2 bullet feats were posted. I never saw those. Several members (ODG included) is disputing the first feat. So my statement is not wrong. If I never seen a feat then it wouldn't be in my memory.

Now if I posted the premise AFTER I was shown these feats then you would have a point.

Now if if you ask me can a human theoretically possibly perform such actions AFTER a bullet is fired then I would say no. If 2 comparable feats are enough to establish her level in a forum fight then I'm all for it as long as most of us agree.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is what I stated

The key is, "from my memory".

After that 2 bullet feats were posted. I never saw those. Several members (ODG included) is disputing the first feat. So my statement is not wrong. If I never seen a feat then it wouldn't be in my memory.

Now if I posted the premise AFTER I was shown these feats then you would have a point.

Now if if you ask me can a human theoretically possibly perform such actions AFTER a bullet is fired then I would say no. If 2 comparable feats are enough to establish her level in a forum fight then I'm all for it as long as most of us agree.
You asked if Black Widow is peak human or not.

But you also made a general statement about peak humans. You believed it's a state a real life human could "theoretically" achieve.
Originally posted by h1a8
A peak human is the strongest a human can possibly be. It's a theoretical limit. She's definitely peak human (not superhuman by any stretch).
Originally posted by h1a8
She didn't do anything from my memory that makes me believe no human can ever do. Even if she did then it's probably a 1 off feat. Everything about her appears to be peak human.

Your premise is based on the idea that "peak human" is something real life humans could even hope to become -- it's not.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if Black Widow is peak human or superhuman. Any comic peak human is superhuman in real world terms.

https://postimg.cc/ts8c3cSD
https://postimg.cc/V54HGvZJ

Widow performs a bog standard peak human feat here. No real human is doing that.

Originally posted by StyleTime
You asked if Black Widow is peak human or not.

But you also made a general statement about peak humans. You believed it's a state a real life human could "theoretically" achieve.


Your premise is based on the idea that "peak human" is something real life humans could even hope to become -- it's not.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if Black Widow is peak human or superhuman. Any comic peak human is superhuman in real world terms.

https://postimg.cc/ts8c3cSD
https://postimg.cc/V54HGvZJ

Widow performs a bog standard peak human feat here. No real human is doing that.

My post went over your head.
I was, implying for the feats I saw and remembered.
Posting superhuman level feats AFTER THE FACT doesn't change that.

In summary
I state that From my memory she has no superhuman feats
Superhuman Feats were posted that I never saw
I agree that they are superhuman feats

What's the problem?

Note: I was mostly thinking of strength feats when I originally posted. I didn't think of speed at all.

The problem is nobody trusts your memory.

Well my memory didn't fail this time. I just never saw the feats.

And also I don't trust my memory either lol

Originally posted by h1a8
My post went over your head.
I was, implying for the feats I saw and remembered.
Posting superhuman level feats AFTER THE FACT doesn't change that.

In summary
I state that From my memory she has no superhuman feats
Superhuman Feats were posted that I never saw
I agree that they are superhuman feats

What's the problem?

Note: I was mostly thinking of strength feats when I originally posted. I didn't think of speed at all.
No, your own post has somehow gone over your head.

You didn't just claim that Widow had no superhuman feats that you recall.

You claimed that peak human feats are hypothetically possible for real life humans.

The feat I posted for Black Widow is a peak human feat, not superhuman.

That's why your premise is flawed. Even if we only showed you peak human feats, your idea that comic peak human is a hypothetical limit for real life humans is false.

Originally posted by StyleTime
No, your own post has somehow gone over your head.

You didn't just claim that Widow had no superhuman feats that you recall.

You claimed that peak human feats are hypothetically possible for real life humans.

The feat I posted for Black Widow is a peak human feat, not superhuman.

That's why your premise is flawed. Even if we only showed you peak human feats, your idea that comic peak human is a hypothetical limit for real life humans is false.

Why isn't a peak human feat HYPOTHETICALLY possible for a real human?

Edit -- accidental post

Originally posted by StyleTime
No, your own post has somehow gone over your head.

You didn't just claim that Widow had no superhuman feats that you recall.

You claimed that peak human feats are hypothetically possible for real life humans.

The feat I posted for Black Widow is a peak human feat, not superhuman.

That's why your premise is flawed. Even if we only showed you peak human feats, your idea that comic peak human is a hypothetical limit for real life humans is false.


Speak for yourself.

Hands raised if you can deflect a bullet with a car key or do a 40 foot vertical leap *Hand*

Originally posted by h1a8
Why isn't a peak human feat HYPOTHETICALLY possible for a real human?

Because no real life human has displayed anything suggesting a human could ever do these things.

It's as I said -- you demanded feats for Natasha, but this imaginary super-man of yours only needs speculation.

Originally posted by StyleTime

https://postimg.cc/ts8c3cSD
https://postimg.cc/V54HGvZJ


What human could even hope to approach this feat? This is a run-of-the-mill peak human feat.

From a seated position, she backflips onto the wall several feet behind her, launches herself off the same wall at a group of gunmen and obliterates them in short order....all while being too fast to be shot by what looks like multiple assault rifles or carbines.

This is just a Wednesday afternoon for even mid-streets.

Originally posted by cdtm
Speak for yourself.

Hands raised if you can deflect a bullet with a car key or do a 40 foot vertical leap *Hand*
Well, you've been training with masterbruce. He gives everyone an amp.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Because no real life human has displayed anything suggesting a human could ever do these things.

It's as I said -- you demanded feats for Natasha, but this imaginary super-man of yours only needs speculation.



What human could even hope to approach this feat? This is a run-of-the-mill peak human feat.

From a seated position, she backflips onto the wall several feet behind her, launches herself off the same wall at a group of gunmen and obliterates them in short order....all while being too fast to be shot by what looks like multiple assault rifles or carbines.

This is just a Wednesday afternoon for even mid-streets.


Well, you've been training with masterbruce. He gives everyone an amp. Master Bruce is greatly inferior to JPlatinum.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Master Bruce is greatly inferior to JPlatinum.


I forgot about JP.

KMC has had some of the finest human specimens to ever exist. I wish I could have trained with them.

Originally posted by StyleTime

What human could even hope to approach this feat? This is a run-of-the-mill peak human feat.
Or this: https://imgur.com/a/d9OrMSB

Originally posted by h1a8
There are no peak humans in the real world. A peak human is the strongest a human can possibly be. It's a theoretical limit. She's definitely peak human (not superhuman by any stretch). How do you define real world peak human in terms of upper limits?

Phil, curious for your opinion re OP

I'm not Phil, but if interested I say weight of history "should" favor Natasha.

I mean, when you get down to it Wonder Woman is similar to Herc. Proven capable of holding their own at upper levels, but no reason to think they could win a majority of encounters.


Heck, Iron Fist has a MUCH better resume, and it's still a hard sell getting anyone to agree he'd beat Elektra a majority without relying on his IF.

Originally posted by Smurph
Phil, curious for your opinion re OP I'd go with Black Widow. Reputation -- be it lip-service or history is just not enough for me. If this reputation is put to practice and she starts going up against highly skilled martial artists and does great , I'd change my mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see her beat somebody really good, but I can't put a theoretical against somebody who actually took on really good people -- BW's showing against Elektra for one is still the one of the craziest boosts I've seen a street have.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Because no real life human has displayed anything suggesting a human could ever do these things.

It's as I said -- you demanded feats for Natasha, but this imaginary super-man of yours only needs speculation.



What human could even hope to approach this feat? This is a run-of-the-mill peak human feat.

From a seated position, she backflips onto the wall several feet behind her, launches herself off the same wall at a group of gunmen and obliterates them in short order....all while being too fast to be shot by what looks like multiple assault rifles or carbines.

This is just a Wednesday afternoon for even mid-streets.


Well, you've been training with masterbruce. He gives everyone an amp.

Yup that's it. You do not understand the situation at all.
My idea of peak human wasn't the feats that were posted. Those are superhuman, not peak. I was talking about the actual peak human showings from her, not superhuman feats. strength feats. Not speed feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Widow is a peak human right (by real world standards) Wrong.

Originally posted by Smurph
Wrong. You are extremely late. Everyone is on the same page now. Keep up

Originally posted by h1a8
You are extremely late. Everyone is on the same page now. Keep up no no, I've maintained the same position for 6 pages. You have been wrong for 6 pages, with nothing but hot air and an embarrassing aversion to reading the very thing you're obsessed with arguing over.

Go breathe in a paper bag and count to 10.

Originally posted by Smurph
no no, I've maintained the same position for 6 pages. You have been wrong for 6 pages, with nothing but hot air and an embarrassing aversion to reading the very thing you're obsessed with arguing over.

Go breathe in a paper bag and count to 10.

If you think so troll.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yup that's it. You do not understand the situation at all.
My idea of peak human wasn't the feats that were posted. Those are superhuman, not peak. I was talking about the actual peak human showings from her, not superhuman feats. strength feats. Not speed feats.
I understand it perfectly well.

What you don't seem to understand, is that "H1's idea of peak human" is irrelevant here. We're discussing comic characters, and comic peak humans do things like the scans I posted. This is an "actual" peak human showing from her.

You mentioned "peak human (by real world standards)", which indicates you realize there's a difference between real and comic peak humans anyway. Then said real peak humans don't exist.

Which makes your premise silly.

Originally posted by Smurph
Or this: https://imgur.com/a/d9OrMSB


I keep wondering if this is the hypothetical limit for peak human?

Or must we refer to the h1 chart, where anything that doesn't fit his personal peak human boundaries is thrown out?

I was impressed with this:

https://i.postimg.cc/QM2jRwpj/HCI8YuX.jpg

'Easily' doing a routine that might well tax Cap America......for two hours.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I understand it perfectly well.

What you don't seem to understand, is that "H1's idea of peak human" is irrelevant here. We're discussing comic characters, and comic peak humans do things like the scans I posted. This is an "actual" peak human showing from her.

You mentioned "peak human (by real world standards)", which indicates you realize there's a difference between real and comic peak humans anyway. Then said real peak humans don't exist.

Which makes your premise silly.

Real peak humans don't exist doesn't actually make my argument incorrect.

Here's my argument.
A peak human feat is a feat a human is THEORETICALLY capable of doing.
No peak human exists doesn't mean they can't exist. See the word "theoretical"? That means it's possible.

Anyway Natasha has shown superhuman speed (beyond peak human) so that's no argument. My initial post was referring to STRENGTH (that was the only thing in my mind). Speed feats were posted. I accepted them.
End of thread.

Originally posted by h1a8


Here's my argument.
A peak human feat is a feat a human is THEORETICALLY capable of doing.
No peak human exists doesn't mean they can't exist. See the word "theoretical"? That means it's possible.



https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/batman-escapes-from-banes-prison-5.jpg

Theoretically possible. 😏

Originally posted by cdtm
https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/batman-escapes-from-banes-prison-5.jpg

Theoretically possible. 😏

What is he doing there?
Anyway Batman,DD, and others have superhuman feats (not peak human).

Originally posted by h1a8
If you think so troll.

You accuse people of trolling?

You?

Mister Real Life Bullseye?

I was surprised that Stilt you haven't h1a8 on ignore

Originally posted by h1a8
What is he doing there?


Dislocating his own back while climbing a prison wall holding onto handhelds he made himself by punching holes in it.


All totally theoretically possible for peak human in the real world. In theory.


Dislocating your own spine and resetting it is totally theoretically possible.

eh. this is fiction.

peak humans in comics are worlds beyond peak humans in real life. wasn't captain america also considered a peak human for the longest time (maybe he still is?) despite how absurd many of his feats are?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I was surprised that Stilt you haven't h1a8 on ignore

At least he sticks to specific Comic & Movie threads (despite never having read/watched a single comic/film in his whole life) and doesn't spam up the entire board.

Besides... you can still view, quote and reply ignored posts, as they're all just one click away

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Besides... you can still view, quote and reply ignored posts, as they're all just one click away
I know, but I don't bother to do so anymore, since like 99% of h1a8's posts are his masturbation and miscalculations

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
At least he sticks to specific Comic & Movie threads (despite never having read/watched a single comic/film in his whole life) and doesn't spam up the entire board.

H1 lacks ambition.

Got to grow that market share.

Originally posted by Smurph
agreed, all around. It would be great to see WW get those props but for a character with so many showings, there's not enough if we're splitting hairs in the upper skill register.

And yeah, Natasha's push is remarkable. The taskmaster showing drives that home.

Poor Tasky, though.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
eh. this is fiction.

peak humans in comics are worlds beyond peak humans in real life. wasn't captain america also considered a peak human for the longest time (maybe he still is?) despite how absurd many of his feats are?

Yeah I thought he has superhuman feats (same as Bats). Which makes Natasha's feat which I posted above, insane.

As T'Challa once said.

Some are more peak human than others

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
As T'Challa once said.

Some are more peak human than others https://64.media.tumblr.com/e719556899df2d893d6cf1e03d85a6ba/bfbe47abea3999b4-eb/s640x960/6bd3ac50bd3b1bf7064f11278d37984bd2a8b424.gif

Originally posted by lawest9
Don't believe that Widow is more skilled than Diana. Originally posted by Konton
Diana easy.
Originally posted by h1a8

If WW starts at peak human (equal to BW) then WW wins


Anyways, is there any evidence for the above?

Originally posted by Smurph
Anyways, is there any evidence for the above?

Fighting skill is something that can't be truly quantified. That's why it's highly unlikely to predict who would win for real life fights with substantial records.

Imo, fighting skill can be subjective to a degree and partially objective only to a trained fighter (someone with sufficient fighting knowledge and experience).

ABC logic can be faulty (if that is the only thing used). A beat B. But how good is B? Well B beat C. But how good is C? It can go on and on until we reach thugs or street fodder.

I'm not going to say that WW is more skilled than BW.
I'm going to say WW is more skilled (imo) based off the fights I've seen (which isn't every fight in existence).
Now if someone shows me a skilled fight by BW that, in my eyes, matches or exceeds WWs best from my memory then I'll side with BW for equal stats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Fighting skill is something that can't be truly quantified. That's why it's highly unlikely to predict who would win for real life fights with substantial records.

Imo, fighting skill can be subjective to a degree and partially objective only to a trained fighter (someone with sufficient fighting knowledge and experience).

ABC logic can be faulty (if that is the only thing used). A beat B. But how good is B? Well B beat C. But how good is C? It can go on and on until we reach thugs or street fodder.

I'm not going to say that WW is more skilled than BW.
I'm going to say WW is more skilled (imo) based off the fights I've seen (which isn't every fight in existence).
Now if someone shows me a skilled fight by BW that, in my eyes, matches or exceeds WWs best from my memory then I'll side with BW for equal stats.

Actually, you can predict the outcome of fights.


They're called odds. There's a reason why the house rarely loses on sports gambling.

Originally posted by cdtm
Actually, you can predict the outcome of fights.


They're called odds. There's a reason why the house rarely loses on sports gambling.

I meant with 100 % certainty.

Originally posted by h1a8
I meant with 100 % certainty.

It's not though. We do 10/0-10/10 odds.

Originally posted by h1a8
Fighting skill is something that can't be truly quantified. That's why it's highly unlikely to predict who would win for real life fights with substantial records.

Imo, fighting skill can be subjective to a degree and partially objective only to a trained fighter (someone with sufficient fighting knowledge and experience).

ABC logic can be faulty (if that is the only thing used). A beat B. But how good is B? Well B beat C. But how good is C? It can go on and on until we reach thugs or street fodder.

I'm not going to say that WW is more skilled than BW.
I'm going to say WW is more skilled (imo) based off the fights I've seen (which isn't every fight in existence).
Now if someone shows me a skilled fight by BW that, in my eyes, matches or exceeds WWs best from my memory then I'll side with BW for equal stats. I take your point about arguments over skill being wrapped up in ABC logic, and therefore inherently limited.

I don't think that the reader's fighting training matters in the exercise, at all. That seems... plainly stupid. Your real life fight record has no bearing on how well you interpret a superhero comic book.

But anyways, to the thread: WW usually enjoys this de facto spot among the upper tier of DC fighters and I'm just genuinely curious if there are actual, substantive showings that I'm not thinking of that anchor that spot.

Originally posted by h1a8


I'm not going to say that WW is more skilled than BW.
I'm going to say WW is more skilled (imo) based off the fights I've seen (which isn't every fight in existence).
Now if someone shows me a skilled fight by BW that, in my eyes, matches or exceeds WWs best from my memory then I'll side with BW for equal stats. further: I guess you're asking for BW showings (which have been posted) and judging against your memory of WW's best because... that memory is really just a vague impression based on her reputation?

At any rate, I know better than to ask you for the cite. If the final answer is that it's all too subjective, fair enough.

Originally posted by Smurph
further: I guess you're asking for BW showings (which have been posted) and judging against your memory of WW's best because... that memory is really just a vague impression based on her reputation?

At any rate, I know better than to ask you for the cite. If the final answer is that it's all too subjective, fair enough.
Yup I'm going by subjective reasoning. What's looks more impressive to me (as far as fighting skill).
But based off what I've seen then I'll say that BW is close.

Originally posted by Smurph
And, sparring with Bruce is fine, but this (while injured) is better.

https://imgur.io/a/wl0WyBD

Feats are feats. /shrug

Originally posted by Smurph
No, she basically just walked out of the ICU after undergoing major abdominal surgery, right before those scans.

Yeah, that's what the second quote refers to. Natasha had basically just walked out of the hospital after major abdominal surgery.

Originally posted by cdtm
He's known to job though. Mr. X was total jobbing, based of the rest of X's career.
I think it depends on what we mean by "jobbing."

If we mean losing to people you shouldn't, then Mr. X isn't truly a jobber. The Iron Fist drunken style thing was absolutely stupid, yes, but something like the Quicksilver fight is a fair outcome for any street martial artist.

And there was the Amadeus Cho loss. Not jobbing (and back when Cho was a big brain) but maybe cdtm's point is that Marvel throws Mr X in to a book just to lose and give somebody a cool moment.

And that's definitely been true for Tasky too (ie that awful Deadpool showing) but the Black Widow loss happened in his book, not hers. Not exactly the same as those other examples.

Wasn't really a loss, Cho just bought himself some time.

Widow has performed better against Daredevil and the Punisher than the rest of the Avengers.

She could always kick some serious ass when she wanted to, even before the MCU push.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, that's what the second quote refers to. Natasha had basically just walked out of the hospital after major abdominal surgery.

Well, walked out is putting it mildly...iirc she fought her way out. And the surgery was quite brutal too, as in she was fully conscious throughout.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, walked out is putting it mildly...iirc she fought her way out. And the surgery was quite brutal too, as in she was fully conscious throughout. Wow. That some Batman level sh1t.

Originally posted by ODG
Wow. That some Batman level sh1t.

Pretty sure this is before Elektra:

https://imgur.com/a/2uH8EMA

It is, yeah. I forgot about her fighting her way out. "Peak human", sure.

That's nothing a human can't theoretically do, doe. It's certainly possible for a normal (i.e. unaugmented) person to do all that, they just need to BELIEVE.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pretty sure this is before Elektra:

https://imgur.com/a/2uH8EMA Holy sh1t