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Does Herc's "skill" take it, or is the only skill he has going down for the count. If his going down skills are mad egough, does the count keep him around?

Nefaria easily

Same speed? Hercules would murder him. What good is power if you can't fight? The Count is an old man made young again with very little in the way of combat skills.

Never understood why Silver Age Nefaria was hyped as much as he was. The fact is Vision KO'd him by falling on him, and he was staggered all the time. Thor and Iron Man could have double teamed him if they fought smart.

^ Nefaria fought an entire roster of Avengers through multiple rounds of combat and was doing really well until Thor came in. That's why. And it's not like he immediately crumpled when Thor arrived.

Nefaria wins.

Hate to disagree with you but Thor himself said that the count pushed over a skyscapper with a casual ease that even he couldn't match, Thor and Herc being equal in strength I just see CN being stronger by enough to make up the skill edge Herc has here imho.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Does Herc's "skill" take it, or is the only skill he has going down for the count. If his going down skills are mad egough, does the count keep him around?

Why do you hate yourself so much, Whirl?

You and Herc are basically the same character

Originally posted by lawest9
Hate to disagree with you but Thor himself said that the count pushed over a skyscapper with a casual ease that even he couldn't match, Thor and Herc being equal in strength I just see CN being stronger by enough to make up the skill edge Herc has here imho.

Thought it kind of funny how Thor drags around the Midgard serpent on a fishing line and gets impressed by moving a skyscraper.

Even with the strength edge, Herc fought much stronger characters. Hulk for example. He was still able to execute pankration style takedowns.

Nefaria should get thrown all day against a grapple master, grounded and pounded ect..

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why do you hate yourself so much, Whirl?

You and Herc are basically the same character

whirley is homo?

Well I don't think that Herc is a whole lot stronger than Wonderman for example and Nefaria tanked Simon's blows without blinking and made short work of him by knocking him through a building, Thor or Herc couldn't dispatch Simon THAT easily I'm sure, and if Herc is stronger than Thor the difference is too small to measure as all of their fights ended in a stalemate with Thor actually winning a couple of times ( Thor #321- 1973 ).

I'm not saying that Hercules wouldn't make a fight of it but he is not humbling CN.

A bit = a small amount. Isn't it nice when we all agree.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A bit = a small amount. Isn't it nice when we all agree. I take "a bit" means a lot to Stoic. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by lawest9
Well I don't think that Herc is a whole lot stronger than Wonderman for example and Nefaria tanked Simon's blows without blinking and made short work of him by knocking him through a building, Thor or Herc couldn't dispatch Simon THAT easily I'm sure, and if Herc is stronger than Thor the difference is too small to measure as all of their fights ended in a stalemate with Thor actually winning a couple of times ( Thor #321- 1973 ).

I'm not saying that Hercules wouldn't make a fight of it but he is not humbling CN.

Classic Wonder Man? I may be largely ignorant of Marvel, but I did read some classic Avengers, and know he never actually hurt Thor with his sucker punch. He toppled him, e.g. knocked him off balance. The text even directly said he couldn't actually harm him.

Originally posted by h1a8
I take "a bit" means a lot to Stoic. I could be wrong.

I have more faith in Stoic's grasp of English - a bit is a pretty common phrase.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have more faith in Stoic's grasp of English - a bit is a pretty common phrase. "a bit" has been used for "quite a bit" on many occasions.

Originally posted by cdtm
Classic Wonder Man? I may be largely ignorant of Marvel, but I did read some classic Avengers, and know he never actually hurt Thor with his sucker punch. He toppled him, e.g. knocked him off balance. The text even directly said he couldn't actually harm him.

Classic Wonder Man was kinda Marvel's answer to Amazo. Talked about him having attributes of different Avengers. I think Captain America's skill was one, I know they said he had the strength of.....Giant-Man. But his fists hit hard as Mjolnir was another.

Originally posted by h1a8
"a bit" has been used for "quite a bit" on many occasions.
Eh, last time I jumped in on Stoic's post with you I royally spanked you, so I am happy to wait and see what the writer intended.

Originally posted by h1a8
"a bit" has been used for "quite a bit" on many occasions.

He's a bit

Hercules isn't stronger than Thor at all.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hercules isn't stronger than Thor at all.

My dude.

Herc never needed to use Bengay

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Why do you hate yourself so much, Whirl?

You and Herc are basically the same character Now I get it.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
My dude.

Herc never needed to use Bengay
😂😂😂😂

Originally posted by h1a8

Hercules is on the slower side of heroes.

Speed is equalized though. It's even in the title.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Speed is equalized though. It's even in the title.
I was already assuming they were the same speed when I posted it.
I wasn't sure if he thought Herc was faster or not (they way he's arguing).
I didn't know Nefaria was faster than Herc in comics.

Well my point still stands as my intention was both to be equal speed and not that Herc is faster.

Originally posted by h1a8
I was already assuming they were the same speed when I posted it.
I wasn't sure if he thought Herc was faster or not (they way he's arguing).
I didn't know Nefaria was faster than Herc in comics.

Well my point still stands as my intention was both to be equal speed and not that Herc is faster.

Nefaria's origin was he drained the majority of the power of 3 villains and took them except amplified(I think 100 times) and one of them had superhuman speed.

Stoic you are going off of the first OHOTMU, that book has been updated many times over as both Thor and Herc are listed at Class 100+, they are evenly strong as their battles alone has always proven that, if anyone has an edge I'd give it to Thor, he had beaten Hercules bare fisted before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Eh, last time I jumped in on Stoic's post with you I royally spanked you, so I am happy to wait and see what the writer intended.

How was writer intent here, h1?

Originally posted by Delta1938
If that's all you're going by, the Handbooks and other sources have long since changed that. Websites have put both at Class 100 for like 20 years plus, multiple Handbooks had Class 100, even the old 90's trading card put them at 7/7. A 6/7 was UP TO 100 tons, 7/7 over.

But the comics>Handbooks/etc. I had assumed you were going by those. Other sources are supplemental. Just told him same pretty much.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nefaria's origin was he drained the majority of the power of 3 villains and took them except amplified(I think 100 times) and one of them had superhuman speed. I stand corrected. I don't remember Nefaria using any significant type of superspeed when he fought the avengers those few times.

Originally posted by h1a8
I take "a bit" means a lot to Stoic. I could be wrong.

You are indeed, wrong. Basic English, as you would say

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You are indeed, wrong. Basic English, as you would say Only he can confirm that. You just have a BELIEF

Standard English has nothing to do with how people speak.
On many occasions people have used "a bit" in the place of " quite a bit". Whether they were using non standard English is irrelevant.

Originally posted by h1a8
Only he can confirm that. You just have a BELIEF

Standard English has nothing to do with how people speak.
On many occasions people have used "a bit" in the place of " quite a bit". Whether they were using non standard English is irrelevant.

The only time I've seen this was people sarcastically saying "bit." Fair enough if you thought sarcasm.

No I actually said that if Hercules was 100 Thor would be 95.

Only in your dreams

Originally posted by h1a8
I stand corrected. I don't remember Nefaria using any significant type of superspeed when he fought the avengers those few times.

His speed was commented on, shown or both multiple times. Wanda reacting to him hitting Beast.

https://bit.ly/3S5tlXR

Yellow Jacket saying it was impossible for someone to move that quick

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

After Captain America and Beast work together to throw the shield, Nefaria himself commenting he's fast enough to catch Cap's shield out of the air. Narration also says he throws the shield so fast Black Panther can't dodge it, but that could easily be strength instead of the writer intending it a speed feat(but thought I'd point it out).

https://bit.ly/3EVcVya

When Whizzer attacks him at superhuman speed, Nefaria mentions he(Nefaria) has the speed of Whirlwind multiplied 100 times and strike Whizzer.

https://bit.ly/3rWXUEF

Nefaria says to Wanda her brother's speed pales compared to him while blitzing the Avengers.

https://bit.ly/3S76eMC

I don't know about later times he faced the Avengers, but this was when he got his powers.

Pankration > Karate

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pankration > Karate

Darn, can't argue with that.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.

Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

https://bit.ly/3TuHxLh

Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--

https://bit.ly/3MEfLtn

https://bit.ly/3yPFUzJ


https://bit.ly/3T0p8Gd

--to this--

https://bit.ly/3Twe6Zf

https://bit.ly/3VwXJ0c

Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?

Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--

https://bit.ly/3EJFRJC

--he treats Thor like this--

https://bit.ly/3yOwG70

Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.

https://bit.ly/3D5xKGc

But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level? I think Count Nefaria was revealed to be a sort of ionic vampire with fluctuating levels of ionic power. While at his peak, he was clearly a teamwrecker, his subsequent lower showings could be conveniently explained away. I'm not sure he has ever matched that initial teamwrecker showing.

Originally posted by ODG
I think Count Nefaria was revealed to be a sort of ionic vampire with fluctuating levels of ionic power. While at his peak, he was clearly a teamwrecker, his subsequent lower showings could be conveniently explained away. I'm not sure he has ever matched that initial teamwrecker showing. That was kind of never discussed again after the Thunderbolts/Avengers crossover.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.

Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

https://bit.ly/3TuHxLh

Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--

https://bit.ly/3MEfLtn

https://bit.ly/3yPFUzJ


https://bit.ly/3T0p8Gd

--to this--

https://bit.ly/3Twe6Zf

https://bit.ly/3VwXJ0c

Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?

Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--

https://bit.ly/3EJFRJC

--he treats Thor like this--

https://bit.ly/3yOwG70

Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.

https://bit.ly/3D5xKGc

But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level?

His combat skills are neophyte level at best, while Herc is a pro. This is why I imagine this to be a no contest where Herc should logically school him if they are limited to what is being asked of by the OP. For example, if Mike Tyson fought the strongest man on Earth, he should win because the strongest man of Earth isn't a fighter of renown.

Originally posted by Delta1938
His speed was commented on, shown or both multiple times. Wanda reacting to him hitting Beast.

https://bit.ly/3S5tlXR

Yellow Jacket saying it was impossible for someone to move that quick

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

After Captain America and Beast work together to throw the shield, Nefaria himself commenting he's fast enough to catch Cap's shield out of the air. Narration also says he throws the shield so fast Black Panther can't dodge it, but that could easily be strength instead of the writer intending it a speed feat(but thought I'd point it out).

https://bit.ly/3EVcVya

When Whizzer attacks him at superhuman speed, Nefaria mentions he(Nefaria) has the speed of Whirlwind multiplied 100 times and strike Whizzer.

https://bit.ly/3rWXUEF

Nefaria says to Wanda her brother's speed pales compared to him while blitzing the Avengers.

https://bit.ly/3S76eMC

I don't know about later times he faced the Avengers, but this was when he got his powers.

I said significant. Significant is like faster than a bullet Imo. But from those scans I would say he's faster than Herc.

Originally posted by h1a8
I said significant. Significant is like faster than a bullet Imo. But from those scans I would say he's faster than Herc.

Why would speed matter if the OP states that their speed is equalized? Nefaria gets wtf owned here.

Originally posted by Stoic
Why would speed matter if the OP states that their speed is equalized? Nefaria gets wtf owned here.

Read the exchange. We were discussing something off topic.

Originally posted by Stoic
No I actually said that if Hercules was 100 Thor would be 95.

Writer intent is king shows the danger of relying on h1's interpretations.

Originally posted by Stoic
His combat skills are neophyte level at best, while Herc is a pro. This is why I imagine this to be a no contest where Herc should logically school him if they are limited to what is being asked of by the OP. For example, if Mike Tyson fought the strongest man on Earth, he should win because the strongest man of Earth isn't a fighter of renown.

Unless you're arguing he's declined or you can show Herc being KK lite--

Originally posted by h1a8
I said significant. Significant is like faster than a bullet Imo. But from those scans I would say he's faster than Herc.

So you don't think hundreds of miles an hour is significant compared to most non flight speed in Marvel?

Originally posted by Delta1938
So you don't think hundreds of miles an hour is significant compared to most non flight speed in Marvel?

Flight speed isn't instant speed (battle speed).
For example, it takes a high performance car several seconds to reach hundreds of mph. In a battle, at close distance, this car will be too slow for battle.

It's about acceleration (not top speed).
Can Nefaria reach bullet speeds within a fraction of a second (or almost instantly)?
If so then that's significant in the comic world and Hercules would have a problem with his speed.
I'm not saying that he doesn't possess that level of battle speed, only that I've never seen it. Moving faster than a human can see might be close to bullet speed (I have to research the fastest speed humans can see before object becomes unseeable).

Originally posted by h1a8
Flight speed isn't instant speed (battle speed).
For example, it takes a high performance car several seconds to reach hundreds of mph. In a battle, at close distance, this car will be too slow for battle.

It's about acceleration (not top speed).
Can Nefaria reach bullet speeds within a fraction of a second (or almost instantly)?
If so then that's significant in the comic world and Hercules would have a problem with his speed.
I'm not saying that he doesn't possess that level of battle speed, only that I've never seen it. Moving faster than a human can see might be close to bullet speed (I have to research the fastest speed humans can see before object becomes unseeable).

Uh.....lot of that isn't what I argued. But his acceleration speed was plenty to be too fast for Whizzer to react(and speed is his only power), and he attacked 3 Avengers in a blitz before any could react, with Captain America last. Unless you're arguing Hercules is faster than Whizzer and much faster than Cap(since he was last) I'm not sure why you would even fathom an argument that Nefaria isn't much faster.

And the limits of what we can see isn't just the speed of an object but the size too. I can see a super sonic jet flying but I can't see .45 ACP going through the air despite its subsonic in speed.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.

Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

https://bit.ly/3TuHxLh

Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--

https://bit.ly/3MEfLtn

https://bit.ly/3yPFUzJ


https://bit.ly/3T0p8Gd

--to this--

https://bit.ly/3Twe6Zf

https://bit.ly/3VwXJ0c

Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?

Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--

https://bit.ly/3EJFRJC

--he treats Thor like this--

https://bit.ly/3yOwG70

Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.

https://bit.ly/3D5xKGc

But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level?


Always found the building thing is funny as Thor has caught the Midgard Serpent on a fishing line.


Here's my thing about Nef's rep, as good as he did against the team, his defeat was by a full durability Vision falling on him. I can't see that beating Hulk, or Thor, or Herc. Think about all the times a flier like Gladiator or someone slams them into the ground at full speeds.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Uh.....lot of that isn't what I argued. But his acceleration speed was plenty to be too fast for Whizzer to react(and speed is his only power), and he attacked 3 Avengers in a blitz before any could react, with Captain America last. Unless you're arguing Hercules is faster than Whizzer and much faster than Cap(since he was last) I'm not sure why you would even fathom an argument that Nefaria isn't much faster.

And the limits of what we can see isn't just the speed of an object but the size too. I can see a super sonic jet flying but I can't see .45 ACP going through the air despite its subsonic in speed. Whizzer wasn't that fast in that comic. Plus tagging a speedster doesn't always mean you are just as fast as them. You can blitz 3 people at 100 Mph. That's nowhere near bullet speed.

I never claim that Nefaria had no superhuman speed. I even stated multiple times that he was faster than Herc.
Hence my argument is about significant more speed than Herc.
Both Cap and Wolverine are faster than Herc and have moved faster than humans can see/react. Doesn't mean they are too fast for Herc to tag. That's because they are not significantly faster (just faster).

But I'm considering that Nefaria is significantly faster (did you even read my last post?). So there should have been no more reply from you.

Originally posted by h1a8
Whizzer wasn't that fast in that comic. Plus tagging a speedster doesn't always mean you are just as fast as them. You can blitz 3 people at 100 Mph. That's nowhere near bullet speed.

I never claim that Nefaria had no superhuman speed. I even stated multiple times that he was faster than Herc.
Hence my argument is about significant more speed than Herc.
Both Cap and Wolverine are faster than Herc and have moved faster than humans can see/react. Doesn't mean they are too fast for Herc to tag. That's because they are not significantly faster (just faster).

But I'm considering that Nefaria is significantly faster (did you even read my last post?). So there should have been no more reply from you.

He was faster than human, and Nefaria hit him with Whizzer looking right at him while Nefaria commented on his own speed.....which was my point. From what I read, if accurate, just based on his origin he should be near speed of sound. So not "nowhere near bullet speed" unless you're talking .50 BMG, no, he's a lot slower than that.

Here's what started it all.

Originally posted by h1a8 I was already assuming they were the same speed when I posted it.
I wasn't sure if he thought Herc was faster or not (they way he's arguing).
I didn't know Nefaria was faster than Herc in comics.

Well my point still stands as my intention was both to be equal speed and not that Herc is faster.

Then when I told you his origin included taking the power of a speedster multiplied, you said--

Originally posted by h1a8
I stand corrected. I don't remember Nefaria using any significant type of superspeed when he fought the avengers those few times.

I mean I guess you're gonna hinge on "I said significant" but everything else supports you just had no clue. But you keep saying "significant" without actually defining it. Definitely not by DC standards, but that's like comparing carter to a pulled watermelon when comparing IQ. The watermelon is DC and it's just mean to carter to make that comparison.

And yes I read your post, it feels like you're doing the same thing on Stoic saying Hercules is a little stronger than Thor.

Originally posted by cdtm
Always found the building thing is funny as Thor has caught the Midgard Serpent on a fishing line.


Here's my thing about Nef's rep, as good as he did against the team, his defeat was by a full durability Vision falling on him. I can't see that beating Hulk, or Thor, or Herc. Think about all the times a flier like Gladiator or someone slams them into the ground at full speeds.

Well, Midgard Serpent was debunked in the way it's argued, but would still be like building size so you point would still stand. But wasn't that after this instance? Probably though Thor has feats before and around the same time that still make this look bad by comparison.

And you say you can't see him beating those guys, but.....he had Thor down twice but didn't continue the attack. Once from Vision jumping in, giving Thor time to recover, the other him running off after backhanded Thor because he thought he(Nefaria) was dying and wanted to go out in a bang destroying as much life and property as possible. The rapid aging may or may not have effected his powers, it definitely effected his confidence which seemed to effect his powers in the scans I posted. Vision dropped on him at maximum weight and density after the rapid aging set in and he took attacks. Might not have worked without all that. But you say you can't see him beating Thor when he treated Thor pretty badly.

No wonder you changed your mind about our BZ.

I had Covid.

And I meant I can't see Vision beat Thor or Hulk or Herc by falling on them at max density. Not when Hype or Gladiator regularly slam them and barely give them pause.

Originally posted by cdtm
I had Covid.

And I meant I can't see Vision beat Thor or Hulk or Herc by falling on them at max density. Not when Hype or Gladiator regularly slam them and barely give them pause.

You didn't say that until well after you agreed to it but then didn't answer. And if it was anything like me, the worst that would effect you from participating is sleeping 12 plus hours only to fall asleep again watching TV.

So are you saying you still want to or what? I never got an answer when I wanted clarification. sneer

What if writers intend something different with the Hyperion and Gladiator examples? And that's ignoring the clear and potential context.

Originally posted by Delta1938
He was faster than human, and Nefaria hit him with Whizzer looking right at him while Nefaria commented on his own speed.....which was my point. From what I read, if accurate, just based on his origin he should be near speed of sound. So not "nowhere near bullet speed" unless you're talking .50 BMG, no, he's a lot slower than that.

Here's what started it all.



Then when I told you his origin included taking the power of a speedster multiplied, you said--



I mean I guess you're gonna hinge on "I said significant" but everything else supports you just had no clue. But you keep saying "significant" without actually defining it. Definitely not by DC standards, but that's like comparing carter to a pulled watermelon when comparing IQ. The watermelon is DC and it's just mean to carter to make that comparison.

And yes I read your post, it feels like you're doing the same thing on Stoic saying Hercules is a little stronger than Thor.

My comments were referring to things AFTER scans were posted. Not before..

I did change argument to significantly. So y still argue that he has speed? Isn't that discussion over?

If I'm not currently arguing that Nefaria and Herc are the same speed then y still bring that up?

Whizzer was about 100mph in that particular comic (got a downgrade) from what I heard.

Originally posted by h1a8
My comments were referring to things AFTER scans were posted. Not before..

I did change argument to significantly. So y still argue that he has speed? Isn't that discussion over?

If I'm not currently arguing that Nefaria and Herc are the same speed then y still bring that up?

Whizzer was about 100mph in that particular comic (got a downgrade) from what I heard.

This needs to be covered before any further discussion. By comments you made AFTER scans were posted, and you referring to the comments I quoted?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Unless you're arguing he's declined or you can show Herc being KK lite--



You ever hear of the gift that Herc has, given to his opponents? Look it up.

Originally posted by Stoic
You ever hear of the gift that Herc has, given to his opponents? Look it up.

That's your job to show me.

Herc destroys him. He doesn't know how to fight. You should test it out some time. Go up to a boxer and fight them. See what the results will be.

Originally posted by Stoic
Herc destroys him. He doesn't know how to fight. You should test it out some time. Go up to a boxer and fight them. See what the results will be.

Fail. I know how to fight, I would be fine. You have shown nothing to back Hercules has the skill to compensate for the strength gap and just argue he's skilled enough and Nefaria had speed against Thor, both circular arguments. He just showed to be way stronger against Thor.

What strength gap? Thor hurt him which is enough to let us know that Count Neverhadafight, would be destroyed. Anyone that actually knew how to fight would know this. Strength is meaningless if you don't actually know how to fight. In other words if I had picked Nefaria, you'd have picked Herc, who is the obvious winner here

The scan that I posted said everything needed. Nefaria is a muscle boy with no prior combat experience. Only the ignorant would ignore that.

Originally posted by Stoic
What strength gap? Thor hurt him which is enough to let us know that Count Neverhadafight, would be destroyed. Anyone that actually knew how to fight would know this. Strength is meaningless if you don't actually know how to fight. In other words if I had picked Nefaria, you'd have picked Herc, who is the obvious winner here

Originally posted by Stoic
The scan that I posted said everything needed. Nefaria is a muscle boy with no prior combat experience. Only the ignorant would ignore that.

I already covered this showing Nefaria lacked confidence initially and it seemed to effect his powers. Whether you're ignoring this or failing to comprehend it, you're still wrong. I don't know how you can ask "what strength gap?" When Nefaria borderline KOed Thor with a backhand.

And the guy who tells me to fight a boxer and see how that goes and says "anyone that actually knew how to fight" is saying strength is meaningless if you don't know how to fight is apparently unaware of weight classes.

Either put up or shut up. Show Hercules' supposedly great skill to overcome what Nefaria did to Thor, or you have nothing.

Lacked confidence because of inexperience. Herc doesn't have that problem unless you're arguing that Hercules would be unable to harm Nefaria, which would be incorrect since Thor was able to harm him.

Put up or shut up? You first. None of your scans prove a thing. He is an inexperienced fighter against a pro. No speed advantage. Just muscle boy vs his destroyer. You obviously have no idea how to fight.

Originally posted by Stoic
Lacked confidence because of inexperience. Herc doesn't have that problem unless you're arguing that Hercules would be unable to harm Nefaria, which would be incorrect since Thor was able to harm him.

Originally posted by Stoic
Put up or shut up? You first. None of your scans prove a thing. He is an inexperienced fighter against a pro. No speed advantage. Just muscle boy vs his destroyer. You obviously have no idea how to fight.

Yes, put up or shut up. I already posted the scans showing he did better as the fight went on. And the strength advantage he had. You needing glasses or just lying doesn't change it. I can quote it again if it's so difficult for you to understand. All you do is say Hercules is such a great fighter and focus on the very beginning while ignoring everything else. You also assume because he has speed that's why he had the advantage. You argue a lot of X having speed solely because he fought Y. All you're doing is looking stupid.

You already posted bullshit. Nefaria has no combat experience in comparison to a seasoned warrior like Hercules. At full power he would win, but with these nerfs he gets schooled. Of course you'd love to ignore this very important fact, but that's on you. Combat ability is very much a reason to make a case against Liberace with super powers. We saw what Hercules did to Sentry. He ended that with one shot.

You still have yet to acknowledge Thor hurting Nefaria with his bare fists, which shoots down the idea that he's too strong for Hercules to hurt. Then again, arguing combat with a non fighter like you is pointless, because you'll attempt to ignore experience.

Nefaria was doing farely well combat wise. He was landing hits on so called skilled opponents. I see him definitely landing some hits on Hercules.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nefaria was doing farely well combat wise. He was landing hits on so called skilled opponents. I see him definitely landing some hits on Hercules. He certainly hurt skilled fighters like Capt. America, Simon and Tony, I think Herc can give him some moments but Herc is not winning this.

Didn't he grab She Hulk by the neck mid-brawl? While he was prone? While she had a team backing her up?

This narrative of Hercules using skill for a good ol combo-to-KO is standing on fan hype, but not logic or comics

Stoic is more invested in this battle than expected. Anyway, Nefaria wins.

Originally posted by Stoic
You already posted bullshit. Nefaria has no combat experience in comparison to a seasoned warrior like Hercules. At full power he would win, but with these nerfs he gets schooled. Of course you'd love to ignore this very important fact, but that's on you. Combat ability is very much a reason to make a case against Liberace with super powers. We saw what Hercules did to Sentry. He ended that with one shot.

You still have yet to acknowledge Thor hurting Nefaria with his bare fists, which shoots down the idea that he's too strong for Hercules to hurt. Then again, arguing combat with a non fighter like you is pointless, because you'll attempt to ignore experience.

No, I didn't post bullshit. Maybe you should get someone else to dumb it down for you. I'm supposed to be impressed by you throwing around meaningless phrases like "Herucles is a seasoned warrior" and blah blah blah? I'm ignoring nothing. You're either ignoring what I said or fail to have good enough reading comprehension. And at the Sentry fight like that's some top tier display of skill.

And here is why I say you look stupid and need someone to dumb it down foe you. You accuse me of not acknowledging Thor hurting Nefaria yet I go over how Nefaria improved as fights went on.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Did Nefaria get some kind of downgrade in power? Because he was way above Thor to the point skill is irrelevant unless you're Karate Kid level. Nefaria had to adjust at times, maybe his mindset effected his powers, could just be lack of confidence. As he would go from doing poorly to dominating when after he realized he was above them.

Against Wonder Man he went from losing to winning in the same page(attacked once the page before).

https://bit.ly/3MzwVII

https://bit.ly/3TuHxLh

Note he said he wasn't prepared due to inexperience.You think that means Hercules will take him before he can get used to it? Unless he had the downgrade I asked, I doubt it. His Thor fight went from this--

https://bit.ly/3MEfLtn

https://bit.ly/3yPFUzJ


https://bit.ly/3T0p8Gd

--to this--

https://bit.ly/3Twe6Zf

https://bit.ly/3VwXJ0c

Note how much Nefaria is talking about Mjolnir. Even if Hercules were slightly stronger(which your only argument is outdated), he doesn't have Mjolnir to compensate to any degree for the difference between him and Nefaria. Unless you're arguing he's KK level skill?

Even after being told the process is rapidly aging him and he'll die in two days--

https://bit.ly/3EJFRJC

--he treats Thor like this--

https://bit.ly/3yOwG70

Not sure if the aging had an effect on him outside his confidence (as we see his performance was effected by it as he does better as the fights go on) but him dying in 2 days was a lie, as he would actually be effectively immortal.

https://bit.ly/3D5xKGc

But it took a combined effort from the Avengers to beat him in that state of mind, far more than Hercules can offer in raw power. So do you have evidence Nefaria got downgraded in power, or are you arguing his skill is KK level?

I mean, I posted the scan you're wanting and showed how things progressed. But I'm not acknowledging? So Wonder Man also initially treated Nefaria the way you're arguing, next we see Nefaria no selling Wonder Man. He went from being effected by Thor's punch to catching Mjolnir casually. He even backhanded Thor like an inferior when Nefaria started freaking out about his rapid aging. YOUR are the one failing to acknowledge that Nefaria would get better as the fight went one. Hell all your worthless "Hercules is a seasoned warrior" repeating, Thor is too, had Mjolnir which Nefaria was more concerned over, and still didn't win. You'd have to argue Hercules is a better fighter to the degree it would outweigh Mjolnir.

And your only other argument is Nefaria doesn't have speed here. Show me Nefaria using speed against Thor. Show me before you repeat your argument that he doesn't have it here.

Originally posted by Smurph
Didn't he grab She Hulk by the neck mid-brawl? While he was prone? While she had a team backing her up?

This narrative of Hercules using skill for a good ol combo-to-KO is standing on fan hype, but not logic or comics

Wasn't Shulk also well below the likes of Herc and Thor at the time?


Black Reign Black Adam regularly one shot Power Girl, does that mean he'd have one shotted Superman or Captain Marvel?

No she wasn't. She Hulk was weaker than Wonder Man in those days. How is this even questionable? How about anyone who does not actually know how to fight, challenge a pro fighter and see how things work out?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do you think Herc could replicate what he did against Sentry in a forum fight?

Why not? It isn't as if he's against a seasoned fighter. Take Nefariaspowera away,and Aunt May would beat the shit out of him.

Better yet, instead of asking dumb questions, who believes that Nefaria would defeat Hercules under these conditions?

Originally posted by Stoic
Why not? It isn't as if he's against a seasoned fighter. Take Nefariaspowera away,and Aunt May would beat the shit out of him.

So much for Sentry only losing when he wants to

Originally posted by Stoic
No she wasn't. She Hulk was weaker than Wonder Man in those days. How is this even questionable? How about anyone who does not actually know how to fight, challenge a pro fighter and see how things work out?

The problem with this analogy is it's wrong. A better analogy would be a pro fighter challenging a bear and seeing how that goes. I mean you're giving off the vibe of a ****ing weeb who thinks skill trounced any strength advantage.

If a pro fighter of average human strength hit a bear, the bear would not feel the punch. In this case, Hercules can actually hurt Nefaria, so it isn't that at all. Nefaria is stronger but not to the point that Hercs attacks would be ignored. Thor hurt him with a punch, so Hercules would as well. Nefaria was dressing like Liberace, had no former combat experience, which means he would be the opposite of what it would be like to fight a bear. He's basically presented as a strong man vs a pro fighter who is slightly weaker.

So does Stoic just like, really hate Liberace?

Originally posted by Stoic
If a pro fighter of average human strength hit a bear, the bear would not feel the punch. In this case, Hercules can actually hurt Nefaria, so it isn't that at all. Nefaria is stronger but not to the point that Hercs attacks would be ignored. Thor hurt him with a punch, so Hercules would as well. Nefaria was dressing like Liberace, had no former combat experience, which means he would be the opposite of what it would be like to fight a bear. He's basically presented as a strong man vs a pro fighter who is slightly weaker.

False. You can hurt a bear. People have successfully fought them off. Your odds are bad, but it happens. A video went viral recently of that(I guess he was wearing a go pro).

And I posted Nefaria going from feeling hits to no selling. It didn't go the way you keep saying it did. He downed Thor with a backhand for ****s sake, that's a pretty significant advantage that you've done nothing to show skill being enough. Thor even if not as skilled as Hercules meets the criteria you keep arguing and had Mjolnir, which was the real thing that Nefaria was impressed over, and was still inferior.

And stop with the "he doesn't have speed here" argument unless you actually SHOW Nefaria used that to his advantage against Thor. Otherwise it's a circular argument.

Originally posted by Smurph
This is great justification for your headcanon but there's just not enough substance beneath the spin.

Could a writer write a Herc/Nefaria battle, under these conditions, in the way you insist it would play out? Yes. Anything is possible.

Would it depart from current portrayals? Also yes.

What current portrayals. Would they include when Cage and Logan tore him up?

I'm not sure what's wrong with Liberace.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm not sure what's wrong with Liberace.

Nothing except for the fact that I'd never bet that he'd defeat an accomplished mma opponent. In this case he has super powers

I find it quite comical for people to think that a person with nearly no knowledge of combat would have more than a 5% chance of defeating a person who actually know enough about combat that they've literally made their own style of fighting. I guess it's hard to separate yourself from fiction.

I find it quite comical that you act like you're an expert while ignoring the evidence that disputes your arguments and don't post any evidence for Hercules to be skilled enough to compensate for the gap.

Originally posted by Stoic
I guess it's hard to separate yourself from fiction. but apparently easy to insert yourself into it

Conversation appears to reflect really divergent opinions.

Hercules' chances would be similar to H2H-Thor's or Savage Hulk's chances against Count Nefaria. I certainly don't see Count Nefaria's flight (or arguably greater strength) overwhelming Hercules' fighting skill/experience. It wouldn't overwhelm H2H-Thor w/o Mjolnir or Savage Hulk either.

Following from that, fight might play out similar to how Hercules has fought Hulk and Thor. And he's hardly outmatched unless there's circumstances involved.

I'm going with Hercules here.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I find it quite comical that you act like you're an expert while ignoring the evidence that disputes your arguments and don't post any evidence for Hercules to be skilled enough to compensate for the gap.

What evidence? You aren't calculating for the speed bump.

Originally posted by Smurph
but apparently easy to insert yourself into it

You don't know how to fight do you? Technique, and knowledge outweighs strength every time provided the two combatants have comparable stats.in this case, Hercules isn't too weak to harm Nefaria, while Nefaria lacks the knowledge to escape submissions, and other techniques that Hercules bring to the table. It's obvious that you like delta have never had a fight in your life.

Originally posted by ODG
Conversation appears to reflect really divergent opinions.

Hercules' chances would be similar to H2H-Thor's or Savage Hulk's chances against Count Nefaria. I certainly don't see Count Nefaria's flight (or arguably greater strength) overwhelming Hercules' fighting skill/experience. It wouldn't overwhelm H2H-Thor w/o Mjolnir or Savage Hulk either.

Following from that, fight might play out similar to how Hercules has fought Hulk and Thor. And he's hardly outmatched unless there's circumstances involved.

I'm going with Hercules here. "hardly outmatched" isn't the same as "likely to win" though. There's a disconnect between your third para and your conclusion.

And, actually, your second para suddenly shifts from comparing Nefaria to Thor/Hulk, to comparing Hercules to Thor/Hulk. If fighting Nefaria would be like fighting Hulk, then it's a given that Nefaria wouldn't overwhelm Hulk, but irrelevant to the argument as structured.

EDIT: never mind, I just can't read, your analogy holds. I guess I just disagree.

EDIT EDIT: oh, the disconnect is between the paras. If Herc fighting Nefaria is like Thor fighting Nefaria, then Herc fighting Thor is not an analogy for how this fight plays out. Herc and Thor sit on the same side of the analogy. /shrug

Originally posted by Stoic
You don't know how to fight do you? oh I'm an expert

I regularly fight crime in full Liberace drag

Nefaria becomes a completely different character under the stips. Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that he's just a muscle boy vs an established warrior.

Originally posted by Stoic
You already posted bullshit. Nefaria has no combat experience in comparison to a seasoned warrior like Hercules. At full power he would win, but with these nerfs he gets schooled. Of course you'd love to ignore this very important fact, but that's on you. Combat ability is very much a reason to make a case against Liberace with super powers. We saw what Hercules did to Sentry. He ended that with one shot.

You still have yet to acknowledge Thor hurting Nefaria with his bare fists, which shoots down the idea that he's too strong for Hercules to hurt. Then again, arguing combat with a non fighter like you is pointless, because you'll attempt to ignore experience.

Can't Black Adam end a fight with Sentry with one shot?

Originally posted by Stoic
You don't know how to fight do you? Technique, and knowledge outweighs strength every time provided the two combatants have comparable stats.in this case, Hercules isn't too weak to harm Nefaria, while Nefaria lacks the knowledge to escape submissions, and other techniques that Hercules bring to the table. It's obvious that you like delta have never had a fight in your life.

I know a thing or two. Always preferred striking from the inside, at grappling range.

An expert grappler like Herc would easily stifle any strength advantage on Nef. This was actually demonstrated in Incredible Hercules, against Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by Smurph
"hardly outmatched" isn't the same as "likely to win" though. There's a disconnect between your third para and your conclusion.

And, actually, your second para suddenly shifts from comparing Nefaria to Thor/Hulk, to comparing Hercules to Thor/Hulk. If fighting Nefaria would be like fighting Hulk, then it's a given that Nefaria wouldn't overwhelm Hulk, but irrelevant to the argument as structured.

EDIT: never mind, I just can't read, your analogy holds. I guess I just disagree.

EDIT EDIT: oh, the disconnect is between the paras. If Herc fighting Nefaria is like Thor fighting Nefaria, then Herc fighting Thor is not an analogy for how this fight plays out. Herc and Thor sit on the same side of the analogy. /shrug I looked at my post again. It's poorly structured. I blame Obama.

I guess I consider Count Nefaria, Thor, Hercules and Savage Hulk as being peers with Hercules having the clear upperhand with skill that can close the gap w/ other esoteric powers or strength differences. So everyone can sit on either side of the analogy.

But that's basically assuming my conclusion. And I hate when people do that. Once again, I blame Obama.

Originally posted by Stoic
What evidence? You aren't calculating for the speed bump.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nefaria becomes a completely different character under the stips. Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that he's just a muscle boy vs an established warrior.

So show Nefaria using speed against Thor. You say I ignore the early punch, but in addition to you ignoring how the fight went on, you ignore I tell you to show Nefaria using speed against Thor instead of assuming he did. And I mean the original fight.

^ Irony.

Originally posted by ODG
I looked at my post again. It's poorly structured. I blame Obama.

I guess I consider Count Nefaria, Thor, Hercules and Savage Hulk as being peers with Hercules having the clear upperhand with skill that can close the gap w/ other esoteric powers or strength differences. So everyone can sit on either side of the analogy.

But that's basically assuming my conclusion. And I hate when people do that. Once again, I blame Obama. It's cool, I think Obama spiked my drink

But I guess my issue is, even assuming the truth of that argument, it still doesn't lead to Hercules winning.

^ I mean... I haven't spent too much time thinking about it, but my initial opinion is Hercules takes 6/10 here? Count Nefaria is the only one nerfed.

And I definitely think both H2H-Thor and Savage Hulk would take at least 6/10 in this particular situation.

Not trying to crap on Count Nefaria but he is a supervillain. Supervillains always blow their load at the start of a fight while superheroes get to enjoy a Round 2 enchantment. It's comics.

Eh, I think that just brings us back to the flaw in the comparison, because (without necessarily agreeing on they'd fare one-on-one with Nef), I would give Hulk and hammerless Thor odds against Hercules.

Herc can hang but (much like Diana...) his much vaunted skill edge is always less show, more tell. Again, I just see the "combo to KO" Herc as a forum concept.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I mean... I haven't spent too much time thinking about it, but my initial opinion is Hercules takes 6/10 here? Count Nefaria is the only one nerfed.

And I definitely think both H2H-Thor and Savage Hulk would take at least 6/10 in this particular situation.

Not trying to crap on Count Nefaria but he is a supervillain. Supervillains always blow their load at the start of a fight while superheroes get to enjoy a Round 2 enchantment. It's comics.


Yeah I think the argument is just that Stoic hasn't posted Herc skill feats. Like, on statements, a depowered Herc should be Cap level? Bats level, that kinda thing, I..e top tier MA. But the skills section of his respect thread is lacking, so people are unconvinced.

Speaking of boxing.........Muhammad Ali fought and defeated much stronger and harder hitting opponents than himself like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers for example.

Originally posted by lawest9
Speaking of boxing.........Muhammad Ali fought and defeated much stronger and harder hitting opponents than himself like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers for example.

Yeah but an untrained chimp would tear him apart.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah but an untrained chimp would tear him apart. Would tear who apart DS? if you are referring to Ali, I've never known that to happen and Ali have fought plenty of bum fighters as well as high level world class fighters.

@ Darksaint:

Upon further study of your post I have a better understanding of your point now, when you said "untrained chimp" I was thinking you may have been referring to a journeyman fight who is generally used to beef up an up and coming contenders resume, but you meant the actual primate itself, gotcha now.

Originally posted by Smurph
Eh, I think that just brings us back to the flaw in the comparison, because (without necessarily agreeing on they'd fare one-on-one with Nef), I would give Hulk and hammerless Thor odds against Hercules.

Herc can hang but (much like Diana...) his much vaunted skill edge is always less show, more tell. Again, I just see the "combo to KO" Herc as a forum concept. I suppose it's unclear to me how much more fighting skill Hercules needs to display to close this perceived gap in strength? Surely no Mantis tier? Surely not Captain America level?? Punisher level??? Hawkeye level???? Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I think the argument is just that Stoic hasn't posted Herc skill feats. Like, on statements, a depowered Herc should be Cap level? Bats level, that kinda thing, I..e top tier MA. But the skills section of his respect thread is lacking, so people are unconvinced. Ok... let's just assume for the sake of argument that Count Nefaria has superior strength. You really think Hercules needs to be a Cap-level martial artist to take on Count Nefaria's superior strength?

You are assuming my argument.

My point was that.....there were no scans of Herc's skill feats. Not Cap level, Punisher level, even Hawkeye level!!!!

You hardly post these days - a few days ago (weeks?) there was a thread asking for Herc's skill feats (not lip service). People are coming in here with that thread fresh in our minds....context, as always, matters.

Originally posted by ODG
I suppose it's unclear to me how much more fighting skill Hercules needs to display to close this perceived gap in strength? Surely no Mantis tier? Surely not Captain America level?? Punisher level??? Hawkeye level???? Well, each of those characters has way, way more showings of skill overcoming a physical gap than Hercules has, so... again, not a helpful comparison for Hercules

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, each of those characters has way, way more showings of skill overcoming a physical gap than Hercules has, so... again, not a helpful comparison for Hercules

Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk?

It's just all so ABC because we see the same showings both proving Herc's strength class but also proving that his skill overcomes a strength gap. And like, the same showing can't be both.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk?

Originally posted by cdtm
This was actually demonstrated in Incredible Hercules, against Savage Hulk.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Herc is pretty close to Thor, but Hulk has a strength advantage over Herc. So how far does Herc's skill take him against Hulk? and yeah, this is a good question

The way Stoic describes the fight, I think he sees it going like this, but more successful: https://imgur.io/a/H1WqnMU

Originally posted by Smurph
and yeah, this is a good question

The way Stoic describes the fight, I think he sees it going like this, but more successful: https://imgur.io/a/H1WqnMU


Looked pretty successful to me.

Remember Herc thought of Hulk as a friend here. And Nef is not Hulk, he has neither the girth nor a proven strength advantage for a pec kick out.


Not to mention Herc can grapple in such a way to make it impossible, such as from behind.

.

So there, Hulk is more successful because he has something that Nefaria does not have - a crazy HF. So yeah, based on that Herc can take Nefaria out.

Is it me or does Herc look better than Thor in h2h against Hulk?

https://ibb.co/82Q3DPX

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So there, Hulk is more successful because he has something that Nefaria does not have - a crazy HF. So yeah, based on that Herc can take Nefaria out. I think that might be right, although Herc got 27? consecutive punches to Hulk's face and he wasn't really phased. Pretty great HF feat, that.

Carver's signal watch is going off right now.

Nefaria wins this, simply too strong.

Originally posted by Smurph
I think that might be right, although Herc got 27? consecutive punches to Hulk's face and he wasn't really phased. Pretty great HF feat, that.


As you say, Hulk has a HF.

Replace Nef with Hulk against the Avengers, and he'd simply shake off all the accumulated damage that eventually took Nef down.

Originally posted by Smurph
and yeah, this is a good question

The way Stoic describes the fight, I think he sees it going like this, but more successful: https://imgur.io/a/H1WqnMU

He would not be able defend himself against a master of a successful style that he created. He has the strength to wear Nefaria out. The strongest man in the world who had training was eventually defeated by a professional fighter. With these guys though, things would be far explosive, and several suplexes at that level is most certainly going to ring his bell. This all also depends on if we are using Hercules at full strength who has near planetary level strength.