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Peak Ben im guessing is from the end of the OWK show, as Old Ben (Alec Guiness) powers had weakened somewhat according to Vader.

So who was the greater/stronger Jedi at their respective peaks (ignore Mortis showings)

Peak Ben amped by "I gotta save Leia" power-up ? Peak Ben should take it then. If we exclude that temporary power-up, then ANakin should win. Peak Amped Ben> OWK Vader>RotS Anakin>RotS Kenobi=End of OWK Kenobi

^ Yeah I meant with the Amp. I guess that could seem duh obvious because ROTS Kenobi beat him, but think most would agree Anakin was more powerful and the greater warrior.

As for OWK Vader being > Anakin, thats based solely on his own opinion right ?

Kenobi wins.

Ben wins.

It was Anakin's opinion that he became more powerful post rots in the book Lord's of the Sith, which takes place just 5 years after rots.

I think it's extremely safe to say Vader is more powerful than Anakin. Published material is what official canon is. Vader straight out says his connection to the force is stronger. On top of that, all of Vader's feats in live action, comics, and animation are far greater than anything Anakin did.

To make an analogy - I've been training jiujitsu for 12 years. I can 100% say I'm a better grappler than I was even just a year ago. It's completely acceptable for Anakin to form an objective analysis of what his capabilities are and a cept them as truth.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Ben wins.

It was Anakin's opinion that he became more powerful post rots in the book Lord's of the Sith, which takes place just 5 years after rots.

I think it's extremely safe to say Vader is more powerful than Anakin. Published material is what official canon is. Vader straight out says his connection to the force is stronger. On top of that, all of Vader's feats in live action, comics, and animation are far greater than anything Anakin did.

To make an analogy - I've been training jiujitsu for 12 years. I can 100% say I'm a better grappler than I was even just a year ago. It's completely acceptable for Anakin to form an objective analysis of what his capabilities are and a cept them as truth.


Well except his new Sith nature makes him arrogant. And he clearly has greater TK Mastery, so that alone would justify his opinion to himself.

Also the same Vader had the opinion that Kenobis powers were restored in the Kenobi finale. IOW he was = ROTS Kenobi (pre-Amp of course). Point being even at this point Kenobi was overpowering Vader in Sabers. So IMO thats a strong reason to believe Vader (at this point in time) was < ROTS Anakin in Sabers at least.


Also wheres the old Anakin brigade at? Dont tell me theyve all converted to the Kenobi brigade ?!

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well except his new Sith nature makes him arrogant. And he clearly has greater TK Mastery, so that alone would justify his opinion to himself.

Also the same Vader had the opinion that Kenobis powers were restored in the Kenobi finale. IOW he was = ROTS Kenobi (pre-Amp of course). Point being even at this point Kenobi was overpowering Vader in Sabers. So IMO thats a strong reason to believe Vader (at this point in time) was < ROTS Anakin in Sabers at least.


Also wheres the old Anakin brigade at? Dont tell me theyve all converted to the Kenobi brigade ?!

His sith nature probably does make him arrogant, but correct me if I'm wrong, no published material states how Vader's arrogance inflates his perception of his own powers. You can have that opinion, sure, but it's not grounded in published material/canon. What we DO have from published material is Vader stating his connection to the force is stronger than its ever been (just 5 years after rots), and his feats across all mediums, which far outweighs anything Anakin has done.

Yes, OWK Obi-wan was = to rots Kenobi at the start of the duel in episode 6, as stated by Vader.... And then the duel initially ended with Vader burrying him in a pile of rocks. OWK Vader > rots Kenobi. However, after he received his amp, he was able to overpower Vader and defeat him. Insider #214 states by the end of the show, they are equal in power. It also explains the reasoning behind WHY Vader lost due to his inability to overcome his weaknesses he had since his Padawan days. I'd say the power scale goes like this (IMO):

ROTJ Vader = ROTJ Luke > ANH Vader = ANH Kenobi > OWK Vader = OWK Kenobi > rots Anakin > rots Kenobi.

OWK Kenobi can't be >RotS Anakin c'mon guuuys

ROTS Anakin can loose that. He already lost to perhaps inferior version of Kenobi (though, I don't think that kenobi!Kenobi was > ROTS Kenobi).

To place ROTJ Luke above ROTS Anakin is already laughtable.

The gap between ROTS Anakin and ROTS Obi-Wan was already big enough, to place many characters. Amped Kenobi might be one of them, if you would like to place him above his ROTS self. I will not.

There is already enough of excuse for Vader, that a one more, five more or ten more doesn't matter at all. Everytime Vader is loosing, he's loosing "because his was hindered" or his enemy was "amped" or he didn't want to fight. He was, after all, THE BEST RED SABER user, most likely he would stomp Palpatine, but he din't want to be alone. Or smth like that.

Disney tell you that Vader was best, yet shows him like Lucas saw him. Good for me, its kinda fuuny how you try to excuse another and another of Vader's failures.

Yeah Vader is obviously muuch weaker than how it's been hyped in the additional material

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
ROTJ Vader = ROTJ Luke > ANH Vader = ANH Kenobi > OWK Vader = OWK Kenobi > rots Anakin > rots Kenobi.

ANH Kenobi was confirmed he had no chance against ANH Vader.

He stalled Vader with no problem, then threw the fight, so we'll never know for sure.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He stalled Vader with no problem, then threw the fight, so we'll never know for sure.

Yes we know and he didn't stand any chances.

Then he wouldn't have succeeded in stalling Vader.

Kenobi was just passing the torch to the next generation; he grew bored of sodomizing Ani.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Then he wouldn't have succeeded in stalling Vader.

Kenobi was just passing the torch to the next generation; he grew bored of sodomizing Ani.

"My resources are depleted, my body screaming in pain. I have no hope of winning this fight." This was only after a few lightsaber clash.

He was only sodomizing himself.

I know you want to provoke, but you can't when it's obvious.

^ Yes but going by the movie dialogue, Vader was now stronger than he was in OWK and Ben was somewhat weaker.

Still he did hold Vader off, thats just fact.



Originally posted by Total Warrior
Yeah Vader is obviously muuch weaker than how it's been hyped in the additional material

Well only in Sabers. He clearly is a beast with the Force and overpowered Kenobi (when his ROTS strength was restored) with that Force advantage.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yes but going by the movie dialogue, Vader was now stronger than he was in OWK and Ben was somewhat weaker.

Still he did hold Vader off, thats just fact.





Well only in Sabers. He clearly is a beast with the Force and overpowered Kenobi (when his ROTS strength was restored) with that Force advantage.

Where in canon does it state Vader's saber skills have declined since he was Anakin?

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Where in canon does it state Vader's saber skills have declined since he was Anakin?

Well thats what we Saw it on OWK. I dont get why things have to be specifically Stated for us.

Having said that, anything in Canon which contradicts that notion? Remember we are talking Sabers Only.

Okay, so it's more your opinion then. Because when I watch the show, I see no indication of his saber skills declining.

In canon, all we know about purely sabers is that he ranks above all other red lightsaber duelists in terms of dueling capabilities. Many people don't like it because they're butt-hurt Vader ranks above Sidious. If Vader and Sidious fought, we all know sids would win - we've seen it multiple times in comics. Force powers make a huge difference.

Since there's no actual material saying Vader's saber skills declined, and given what we know about how Vader ranks among his red lightsaber welding peers, then at best we can say Vader is equal to Anakin in saber skills. In my opinion, odds are his skills have increased.

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Okay, so it's more your opinion then. Because when I watch the show, I see no indication of his saber skills declining.

In canon, all we know about purely sabers is that he ranks above all other red lightsaber duelists in terms of dueling capabilities. Many people don't like it because they're butt-hurt Vader ranks above Sidious. If Vader and Sidious fought, we all know sids would win - we've seen it multiple times in comics. Force powers make a huge difference.

Since there's no actual material saying Vader's saber skills declined, and given what we know about how Vader ranks among his red lightsaber welding peers, then at best we can say Vader is equal to Anakin in saber skills. In my opinion, odds are his skills have increased.

I think also because Obi was Vaders/anakins master in the past he knew his style which allowed him to keep up with him.. hence sort of giving him the advantage. I still think that in the end of the OWK show that sids was right saying that he/vader became weaker and in both sabers and force when he fought Obi due to his personal feelings .. Hence i dont think that Vader was at his best.. Because then Sids will be looking for and trying to hunt for Obi wan etc and he didnt seem to care and placed no emphasis on him ... I personally think Obi in the OWK show was at the same level as he was in ROTS when he got his skills back . At times he looked kind of sloppy..

Originally posted by Forschbewithu
Okay, so it's more your opinion then. Because when I watch the show, I see no indication of his saber skills declining.



So wait, in their respective saber fights against Kenobi, you actually saw Vader doing just as well as Anakin did? In the saber Only portion of the fight?

Its more than just an opinion when I can demonstrate it via clips.

^ But Kenobi knew Anakins strengths and weaknesses as well. So just comparing Vaders performance against him to Anakins in ROTS.

Heck even in the flashback in that show, Anakin clearly was the stronger duellist, but Kenobi out manoeuvred him understanding his weaknesses. But never saw the part (in the final episode fight) where machine Vader was a stronger duellist than Obi-Wan.

Agreed that Vader would have improved by ANH (Rebels Vader seemed pretty strong against Ahsoka). But dont see any evidence he was ever > Anakin in Sabers.

Can become more powerful without increasing skill. Like Ben did in the finale. So I have no issue with that. Just saying as of OWK - Vader defo seems < ROTS Anakin in Sabers.

As for that list people generally dont accept Maul > Dooku, so cant pick and choose how we use that source.

We also know Palpatine tooled Vader in Sabers but that was closer to ROTS.

Both Thrawn and Tarkin were able to deduce that Vader was Anakin Skywalker, just by watching him fight with a lightsaber -- Tarkin was particularly awestruck by his performance, despite witnessing numerous Jedi engage in lightsaber combat during TCW. So based on that, it's logical to assume that Vader's skills never really diminished(once he fully acclimated to the armor, obviously.)

Granted, Vader had to create/adopt a different lightsaber style(one that better-suited the sheer bulk of his armor and cybernetics), but he was still an absolute top-tier duelist -- especially during the OT era.

Personally, I believe that his saber skills did increase between the events of RotS and the OT... Though not nearly as much as his power increased.

Well is it that hard to be a top tier duelist in the OT, when Vader's only had like what....6 duels? 1 of which was against Koth who gave up completely on being a Jedi, so I doubt he's any better than what he once had been and would probably be weaker.

Tbh, I would say Vader's skill neither increased nor decreased. Far as I can tell, in Canon he's not having many actual duels.

I mean let's see, the only notable Jedi Master who actually would more than likely be honing his skill would be Kirak. Since...that's what he's stated to be, his whole thing was just fighting.

Koth being the next guy, well as said, the guy basically gave up on being a Jedi, so at BEST his skill would be the same as it was in ROTS....though I really think he wouldn't be as skilled.

The Grand Inquisitor next, I gotta be honest here, I really don't see how skilled this guy actually is when all he's done is face rusty/learning/relearning Jedi Padawans. Like that shouldn't really do much to help Vader other than maintaining what he has.

Next is...Tano. Next to Kirak, she's probably the most skilled. Just on the basis that she didn't seem to give up fighting? I gotta be honest here, the Inquisitors in Canon are just garbage, that I don't see where anyone can see an increase in saber skill for....well anyone.

Then Obi-Wan, again the guy has been out of the game, I seriously doubt his lightsaber skill just magically increased beyond what it was in ROTS.

Reva? She's trash.

So I feel there's more evidence that Vader's skill just didn't go anywhere really, didn't increase, but didn't really deteriorate either. It just kinda remained stagnant.

Actually it specifically says that Koth was more powerful than he ever was as a Jedi because he was using his fear and anger.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Actually it specifically says that Koth was more powerful than he ever was as a Jedi because he was using his fear and anger.

I'm talking about skill, not power.

True but more power means better augmentation and would make him a better duelist overall.