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Who wins in the following:

1. Sabres
2. Force powers
3. All out fight

Peak Maul is probably last Clone Wars episodes Aka ROTS (but I hope we find out one day that Solo Maul is Peak Maul).

Unfortunately we never saw anything from him to show he's Sith Dooku's equal (a guy who consistently tooled Kenobi).

But yeah ROTS Maul could easily be on par with TOTJ Dooku in both Sabers and the Force.

Rebels Maul still had skills and wasn't completely out of shape. But he was just too desperate at this point, which made it possible for the likes of Kanan to overpower him.

What we know about Dooku in this era:
-He was regarded as among the top 3 most powerful/skillful Jedi at the time.
-He had been dabbling quite heavily in the dark side, and claimed to have expanded his power/knowledge beyond what the Jedi were capable of.
-He was already proficient with Force Lightning years beforehand.

Rebels Maul has always been harder for me to gauge. Personally, I think that his saber skills may have diminished slightly, but his power/knowledge in the Force was as strong as ever. That said, ANY iteration of Maul has always been profoundly arrogant, and extremely single-minded... He has consistently(ie. in just about every noteworthy canon battle) allowed that mindset get the better of him. Historically speaking, that's pretty much why he has always lost.

At any rate, I think Dooku takes it. There's no reason to think that Maul was a superior swordsman, and also no reason to think Maul could overpower him in a general Force-battle(especially when Dooku has the FL trump card.)

Originally posted by Galan007
What we know about Dooku in this era:
-He was regarded as among the top 3 most powerful/skillful Jedi at the time.
-He had been dabbling quite heavily in the dark side, and claimed to have expanded his power/knowledge beyond what the Jedi were capable of.
-He was already proficient with Force Lightning years beforehand.

Rebels Maul has always been harder for me to gauge. Personally, I think that his saber skills may have diminished slightly, but his power/knowledge in the Force was as strong as ever. That said, ANY iteration of Maul has always been profoundly arrogant, and extremely single-minded... He has consistently(ie. in just about every noteworthy canon battle) allowed that mindset get the better of him. Historically speaking, that's pretty much why he has always lost.

At any rate, I think Dooku takes it. There's no reason to think that Maul was a superior swordsman, and also no reason to think Maul could overpower him in a general Force-battle(especially when Dooku has the FL trump card.)

Awesome good points.. Also wasnt sure that cannon source which stated that Maul was above dooku in sabers etc is that still considered cannon now or?

From Palpatine's POV, Maul was indeed more of a "loss" than Dooku. After all, Palpatine had personally trained/groomed Maul for a few decades before his defeat in TPM. Maul was intended to be Palpatine's one, true, apprentice(originally, at least), and as such, a LOT of time and effort was devoted to transforming him into a proper Sith lord.

Flip side, Dooku was already a seasoned Jedi Master by the time he joined Palpatine. He basically came in already knowing everything he needed to know, and Palpatine just fed him dark side tidbits here and there in order to keep him subservient and wanting more. Dooku's sole purpose was just to be the "face" of the Separatist movement -- beyond that, he was absolutely expendable(hence Palpatine's "torpedo" analogy.)

^ Makes sense. Shame we never got a Dooku vs Maul in SOD. Despite Maul's arrogance, I see him giving a Peak performance against a Sith. Like he recognised he couldn't take Vader alone, so wouldn't get cocky. So I assume he wouldn't underestimate Dooku either.

^
Hard to tell. Maul really despited Dooku until the pint, when he understood, he would be Sidious tool as well. It was the same moment, when he understood who will be Sidious one and truly apprentice. Until then, he started to consider Dooku as similar to himself. Before that, Dooku was like "Sith pretender" to him.

The one, that Maul try-hard against was Kenobi.

Anyway, this Maul's line... man, I hope someone will show to us on e day why Maul considered himself inferior to Vader.

Originally posted by Galan007
From Palpatine's POV, Maul was indeed more of a "loss" than Dooku. After all, Palpatine had personally trained/groomed Maul for a few decades before his defeat in TPM. Maul was intended to be Palpatine's one, true, apprentice(originally, at least), and as such, a LOT of time and effort was devoted to transforming him into a proper Sith lord.

Flip side, Dooku was already a seasoned Jedi Master by the time he joined Palpatine. He basically came in already knowing everything he needed to know, and Palpatine just fed him dark side tidbits here and there in order to keep him subservient and wanting more. Dooku's sole purpose was just to be the "face" of the Separatist movement -- beyond that, he was absolutely expendable(hence Palpatine's "torpedo" analogy.)

Awesome makes clearer. Sorry also reckon that old cannon source which ranks the red lightsabers etc it puts Maul above Dooku in sabres .. is it still considered cannon ?

Originally posted by McP
^
Hard to tell. Maul really despited Dooku until the pint, when he understood, he would be Sidious tool as well. It was the same moment, when he understood who will be Sidious one and truly apprentice. Until then, he started to consider Dooku as similar to himself. Before that, Dooku was like "Sith pretender" to him.


Dooku did torture him in SOD, and Maul wanted to ally with him, so I doubt he'd underestimate him. Granted I agree Dooku would still win, but I think Maul would put up a decent fight.


Originally posted by McP


The one, that Maul try-hard against was Kenobi.


Both times he lost to Kenobi is when he got cocky and underestimated him. He did well against him in TCW though. I actually think it's Kenobi who puts on his best performance against Maul, if you look at how he'd get kicked around by the likes of Grievous and Ventress during TCW, he seemed much more on form every time he took on Maul.

Originally posted by McP
Anyway, this Maul's line... man, I hope someone will show to us on e day why Maul considered himself inferior to Vader.

Well he knew he was Skywalker. And he knew Sidious chose him over both Maul and Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dooku did torture him in SOD, and Maul wanted to ally with him, so I doubt he'd underestimate him. Granted I agree Dooku would still win, but I think Maul would put up a decent fight.

Did he? Serious question, as i don't remember it that well. But wasn't it that Maul was pretending to be eager to ally with Dooku, while the latter pretended that he agrees, as the whole plan was to find Talzin?

The only time they were truly forced to be allies was when they encountered a jedi strike team.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Both times he lost to Kenobi is when he got cocky and underestimated him. He did well against him in TCW though. I actually think it's Kenobi who puts on his best performance against Maul, if you look at how he'd get kicked around by the likes of Grievous and Ventress during TCW, he seemed much more on form every time he took on Maul.

I'm not sure. Kenobi is the one that always was giving his best against Anakin/Vader I would say. Against Maul? Stalemate in their 1v1 in the fifth season, being overhelmed in season 4 (badly beaten shortly before though). At the end of that battle in season five, Kenobi landed kicks etc but almost only on Savage, perhaps he kicked Maul once, but it didn't has eny effect excluding a few seconds of Maul being a little bit away).

Fights with Ventress were very specific, as somehow, Kenobi was never that serious, like holding himself back or smth. I don't know. And Grievous owerpowered him just once? Twice at best?

Originally posted by McP
1)zDid he? Serious question, as i don't remember it that well. But wasn't it that Maul was pretending to be eager to ally with Dooku, while the latter pretended that he agrees, as the whole plan was to find Talzin?

The only time they were truly forced to be allies was when they encountered a jedi strike team.



2)I'm not sure. Kenobi is the one that always was giving his best against Anakin/Vader I would say. Against Maul? Stalemate in their 1v1 in the fifth season, being overhelmed in season 4 (badly beaten shortly before though). At the end of that battle in season five, Kenobi landed kicks etc but almost only on Savage, perhaps he kicked Maul once, but it didn't has eny effect excluding a few seconds of Maul being a little bit away).

Fights with Ventress were very specific, as somehow, Kenobi was never that serious, like holding himself back or smth. I don't know. And Grievous owerpowered him just once? Twice at best?


1) Yeah thats right, but theres literally no reason to believe Maul would underestimate a Sith. He didnt underestimate Anakin/Vader. Dooku was known as an elite Jedi even before being a Sith Lord. And Hes obviously more experienced than Maul.

This isnt some padawan or withered old man rotting in the sand for him to get cocky over. It was Mauls replacement.

Dont forget Dooku tortured Maul with his Force lightning, he was also there when Dooku took on Kenobi and another Jedi getting the better of them pretty fast.

So again theres Zero reason to believe Maul wouldnt bring his A game against Dooku.

2) Yeah Kenobi obviously brought his A game against Against Anakin/Vader. Although he knew he had to after all those sparring matches.

But even against Maul the first fight Kenobi was winning until he had to help Ventress. Then Maul triggered him over Qui-Gon. The second fight they both held their own. Maybe Kenobi had a small edge. But both times it clearly wasnt a Kenobi holding back. Second fight he was even stated to be focused from the get go. Maul performed well in both fights as well tbh.

Dooku in all

I think in most of the Maul and Kenobi fights it was more so in favour of Kenobi due to the circamstance or situation .. Like it wasnt really conclusive as to who was the superior.. In force powers i think Maul was more powerful as he used it to overpower Obi .Okay first fight TPM Maul was the clear winner or superior ..
The second fight seems they were even but Maul later on bested Kenobi but Maul at that time was out of practice and Kenobi should have been able to beat Maul easily but couldnt ... Kenobi also admitted that he and ventress were outmatched.. Maul also looked sloppy and out of practice a bit ...
Third fight they were pretty much even again i think Maul did well, remember he was only trying to get Obi to surrender he didnt want to kill him hence making it hard for him to defeat him.. I think when savage and maul blade locked Kenobi they could have won but then obviously kenobi exploits savages weakness ie the leg kick etc . Maul then overpowers him via force powers.. Still a good fight for maul as he didnt get completly beat by Obi .. the cave i think gave them a disadvantage thats why he force pushed him/Obi away to escape..
Like the Duels they had between each other it wasnt enough... would have been better if it showed more.. I think Maul never really reached his peak..They should have put him in the spot light a bit more. Remember Lucasas original plan he wanted to make Maul the new Sith Emporer/Or Sith lord after sids who would have fought against Leia and Luke etc they should have stuck to that original plan would have been nice.... All in all Filino says it can go either way with Maul or Obi...
I personally think Maul at best could probably beat dooku in Sabers.. i think Juyo will probably be to much for Dooku.. Rememeber in the comics he asks Dooku to serve him.. I personally think they never showed them Duel each other on purpose as they are both very popular and dont want to dissapoint the fans of each or either character etc..

^ They were clearly on the same level in their TCW fights. Obi-Wan may have had the edge, but Maul was still getting back into the groove of things (got his more normal sized legs after those fights).

Maul seemed better in the Force though yeah.

Originally posted by ozz81
Awesome makes clearer. Sorry also reckon that old cannon source which ranks the red lightsabers etc it puts Maul above Dooku in sabres .. is it still considered cannon ? I suppose that list is still technically canon, but it is more than likely referencing technical lightsaber skill alone... And it takes more than *just* technical skill for a weaker opponent to best a more powerful opponent.

So even IF Maul's pure swordsmanship was superior to Dooku's, I'd assume the gap would be marginal at best -- certainly not enough to allow Maul to best Dooku in a true battle.

Same with Vader vs. Palpatine, or RotJ/Mando Luke vs. Ahsoka.

Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose that list is still technically canon, but it is more than likely referencing technical lightsaber skill alone... And it takes more than *just* technical skill for a weaker opponent to best a more powerful opponent.

So even IF Maul's pure swordsmanship was superior to Dooku's, I'd assume the gap would be marginal at best -- certainly not enough to allow Maul to best Dooku in a true battle.



I mean IF True, that would certainly be a decent case for Maul being on par with Dooku in a Saber only battle. I don't see Dooku just being massively stronger/faster physically(force enhanced) for that not to make a difference. Especially when Maul is clearly a bit of a physical beast, and clearly well trained in h2h.

But yeah, with Force attacks included, think we all agree Dooku > Maul overall.

Not sure if those unfinished episodes were canon, nor I had read a "Dark Disciple", but Maul, Savage and Vizsla combined performance against a group of bounty hunters and mercenaries seems to be far worse then Dooku's single encounter against a larger group of similar/superior bounty hunters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qpn4ulIBE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqme2yXff7M

Dooku is more agile, a bit faster, has far superior view on battlefiled, is far better in using the Force in the middle of physical fight. And, basing on his showings in movies/shows he is surley not worse then Maul in terms of lighstaber's technical skill. And is far more intelligent on the battlefield.

If that fight against bounty hunters had place in a DD and it was at least similar, then it's another hard evidence for Dooku. Not to mention, that is is Maul who is considered as better suited to a battles that are different then clasic jedi/sith duel. He is not.