Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Voidtry

Originally posted by tkitna
Voidtry
Yup.

Originally posted by lawest9
Who wins?

Voidtry from seige??

Hulk eats him.

Voidtry easily.

What are the arguments for Voidtry?

World Breaker breaks him.

Originally posted by h1a8

What are the arguments for Voidtry?

Stalemating World War Hulk despite being in an extremely weakened state?

Already outperforming World Breaker Hulks feats in his fight against Photon?

Beating Molecule Man, who affected far more than just a planet and a couple of high herald-level beings in his fights?

Killing Loki despite being attacked by a legion of massively amped good guys?

Regenerating from a single atom?

Originally posted by Enzeru



1. Stalemating World War Hulk despite being in an extremely weakened state?

2. Already outperforming World Breaker Hulks feats in his fight against Photon?

3. Beating Molecule Man, who affected far more than just a planet and a couple of high herald-level beings in his fights?

4. Killing Loki despite being attacked by a legion of massively amped good guys?

5. Regenerating from a single atom?

1. Stalemating WWH as evidence he beats WBH is faulty logic, Especially when you can't quantify how much he was weakened, if at all (careful about going against writer's intent). WBH was operating MORE than millions of times greater than WWH (in durability as well).

2. His fight against photon was at least 6 orders of magnitudes below WBH feat. Just to be clear, what are you claiming he did in the photon fight? So that we can quantify and compare.

3. WBH is not MM, so that fight is irrelevant. Sentry can still be koed with a blow. Voidtry doesn't have the propensity to even attempt to atomize WBH from the get go, or even at all.

4. Killing Loki is again magnitudes below WBH feat. You are not understanding the magnitude of the feat.

5. Regeneration has nothing to do with being koed.
Many characters can regenerate and also be koed.

Here's my argument :

Simply put, Sentry doesn't have the power output to even effect WBH in the slightest.
Want proof? Here you go:

WBH tanked a force capable of shattering more than a thousand planets (possibly millions).

How?

Well he collided with his equal with that much force and wasn't visibly damaged.

Prove it was that much force? Ok

Well it takes at least thousands of times (more realistically beyond a million) more force to destroy something from a distance without touching it than to directly touch it. You can shatter a vase easily with a sledgehammer. But how much force would the vase feel if you strike another sledgehammer 100s of meters away with the same force yo8 hit the vase with? Less than a million times the original force.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Stalemating WWH as evidence he beats WBH is faulty logic, Especially when you can't quantify how much he was weakened, if at all (careful about going against writer's intent). WBH was operating MORE than millions of times greater than WWH (in durability as well).

2. His fight against photon was at least 6 orders of magnitudes below WBH feat. Just to be clear, what are you claiming he did in the photon fight? So that we can quantify and compare.

3. WBH is not MM, so that fight is irrelevant. Sentry can still be koed with a blow. Voidtry doesn't have the propensity to even attempt to atomize WBH from the get go, or even at all.

4. Killing Loki is again magnitudes below WBH feat. You are not understanding the magnitude of the feat.

5. Regeneration has nothing to do with being koed.
Many characters can regenerate and also be koed.

Here's my argument :

Simply put, Sentry doesn't have the power output to even effect WBH in the slightest.
Want proof? Here you go:

WBH tanked a force capable of shattering more than a thousand planets (possibly millions).

How?

Well he collided with his equal with that much force and wasn't visibly damaged.

Prove it was that much force? Ok

Well it takes at least thousands of times (more realistically beyond a million) more force to destroy something from a distance without touching it than to directly touch it. You can shatter a vase easily with a sledgehammer. But how much force would the vase feel if you strike another sledgehammer 100s of meters away with the same force yo8 hit the vase with? Less than a million times the original force.

But this ignores that A: Dark Dimension matter is more fragile, and B: there were potential other factors in play that contributed to the WBH feat.

Also, Voidtry wasn't KOd to my knowledge. Probably wrong though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But this ignores that A: Dark Dimension matter is more fragile, and B: there were potential other factors in play that contributed to the WBH feat.

Also, Voidtry wasn't KOd to my knowledge. Probably wrong though.
Yeah, Dark Dimension being fragile was once again mentioned in Dr Strange Book of Vishanti handbook.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, Dark Dimension being fragile was once again mentioned in Dr Strange Book of Vishanti handbook.

So it's been mentioned more times than Surfer has created black holes. Nice.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So it's been mentioned more times than Surfer has created black holes. Nice.
Yup. In comic.

Dr Strange Sorcerer Supreme 50

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11111/111113915/8786899-iyr01rav4rnxxsidij_jagfty5dp3hacyb43phrt_jc.jpg

Dr Strange sorcerer supreme 21

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11111/111113915/8786900-screenshot_20230116-115551_gallery.jpg

And in the handbook.

https://i.postimg.cc/xkcDZcNR/image.jpg

TBH, I might find even more if I tried.

Abhi "This is not even my final form" Legend

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yup. In comic.

Dr Strange Sorcerer Supreme 50

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11111/111113915/8786899-iyr01rav4rnxxsidij_jagfty5dp3hacyb43phrt_jc.jpg

Dr Strange sorcerer supreme 21

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11111/111113915/8786900-screenshot_20230116-115551_gallery.jpg

And in the handbook.

https://i.postimg.cc/xkcDZcNR/image.jpg

TBH, I might find even more if I tried.


To the first scan

The 2nd scan and handbook entry doesn't mention matter is more fragile though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But this ignores that A: Dark Dimension matter is more fragile, and B: there were potential other factors in play that contributed to the WBH feat.

Also, Voidtry wasn't KOd to my knowledge. Probably wrong though.

If A is true then you are right.
I accounted for all other factors at play in B

Originally posted by h1a8
If A is true then you are right.
I accounted for all other factors at play in B

Did you? Including that his destructive ability was potentially limited only to the Dark Dimension and his enemies in that specific scenario, and isn't extendable to a forum fight?

The Dark scan mention Dormammu changing the Dark Dimension to his liking, so posting those old a** scan is overdone by Dorm restructuring the Dark Dimension per his liking.

https://postlmg.cc/xkcDZcNR

Also, Doctor Strange has went all out again Dorm in this realm and the planet didn't suffer a scratch.

Dorm powering up in anger to levels that had never been seen in the Dark Dimension and the Dimension was still in tact...

https://ibb.co/9gK2ssd

Shuma and the Avengers fought in this Dimension and Dorm took him out. All happened in the Dark Dimension. No exploding planets, shit...

https://ibb.co/jfKrKXC
https://ibb.co/9Y256TS

Let's also not forget Dormammu fighting eternity there as well.

Originally posted by carver9
Dorm powering up in anger to levels that had never been seen in the Dark Dimension and the Dimension was still in tact...

https://ibb.co/9gK2ssd

Shuma and the Avengers fought in this Dimension and Dorm took him out. All happened in the Dark Dimension. No exploding planets, shit...

https://ibb.co/jfKrKXC
https://ibb.co/9Y256TS

Let's also not forget Dormammu fighting eternity there as well.

Very good scans.

What happened when WBH came to 616 Earth, was massively amped and was fighting multiple Hulks? Asking for a friend.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Very good scans.

What happened when WBH came to 616 Earth, was massively amped and was fighting multiple Hulks? Asking for a friend.

The same thing that happened when Supernan goes all out on earth and was extremely amped when he punched World Forger with the shockwaves not even putting a scratch on Batman, hawkgirl or any of the JLA (remember, he supposedly destroyed a planet before punching WF). Once you explain this, then I will tell you why Earth wasn't destroyed. Explain this to me and your friend, please.

Originally posted by carver9
The same thing that happened when Supernan goes all out on earth and was extremely amped when he punched World Forger with the shockwaves not even putting a scratch on Batman, hawkgirl or any of the JLA (remember, he supposedly destroyed a planet before punching WF). Once you explain this, then I will tell you why Earth wasn't destroyed. Explain this to me and your friend, please.

But you're the one bringing collateral damage up.

So stop just reacting to what I say. Why is Dormammu not destroying the DD impressive for the DD? And how is this different to WBH on Earth?

Also ask your friend how the entire Kryptonian race stomp and kill Doomsday on the moon but only puts a dent on it. So many questions...

https://ibb.co/0r9MSMG

Originally posted by carver9
Also ask your friend how the entire Kryptonian race stomp and kill Doomsday on the moon but only puts a dent on it. So many questions...

https://ibb.co/0r9MSMG

Hey, you're the one bringing collateral damage in. Doomsday and Superman ain't here in this thread, Hulk and the DD are.

So, again, why is your example impressive and WBH on Earth isn't? Stop reacting, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you're the one bringing collateral damage up.

So stop just reacting to what I say. Why is Dormammu not destroying the DD impressive for the DD? And how is this different to WBH on Earth?

I can't explain why Celestials, Galactus and Beyonder can fight on Earth and not destroy it but in other areas, they destroy Galaxies and crap. Maybe you have an answer for me.

Originally posted by carver9
I can't explain why Celestials, Galactus and Beyonder can fight on Earth and not destroy it but in other areas, they destroy Galaxies and crap. Maybe you have an answer for me.
So why bring Dormammu fighting in the Dark Dimension and not destroying it up, then?

If you can't explain it. Sounds like PIS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But this ignores that A: Dark Dimension matter is more fragile, and B: there were potential other factors in play that contributed to the WBH feat.

Also, Voidtry wasn't KOd to my knowledge. Probably wrong though.


Because of this troll post.

Originally posted by carver9
Because of this troll post.
You can't refute it, then? Just because you disagree doesn't make it a troll post.

I already refuted it. Skyfathers fighting in the dimension not even causing a fraction of damage Hulk did whereas Hulk blew everything up with a single hit.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You can't refute it, then? Just because you disagree doesn't make it a troll post. Unfortunately disagreement and trolling goes hand and hand, they can't distinguish between the two.

Originally posted by lawest9
Unfortunately disagreement and trolling goes hand and hand, they can't distinguish between the two.

Dark asked why I posted scans of insanely powered characters fighting in the Dark Dimension and I showed him why. They fought there, nothing happened to the surrounding area. He then try to twist the argument and ask me why earth wasn't destroyed when his overall argument was the Dark Dimension being weak even though it isn't since powerful skyfathers and abstract beings fought there with nothing happening. His actions are the definition of trolling. No way around it.

Originally posted by carver9
I already refuted it. Skyfathers fighting in the dimension not even causing a fraction of damage Hulk did whereas Hulk blew everything up with a single hit.

So which is it then?

Is collateral damage a guide to how powerful an attack is?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So which is it then?

Is collateral damage a guide to how powerful an attack is?

Is the Dark Dimension weak, yes or no? If it's weak, explain to me why it wasn't destroyed in other fights involving powerful entities. Thanks

Originally posted by carver9
Is the Dark Dimension weak, yes or no? If it's weak, explain to me why it wasn't destroyed in other fights involving powerful entities. Thanks

Stop answering a question with a question, you know better.

Is collateral damage a guide to how powerful an attack is?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

aalso, Voidtry wasn't KOd to my knowledge. Probably wrong though.

He got his head cut off in Siege and still continued fighting and killing gods. And here you have people arguing a punch can KO him. I don't even know what to say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Stop answering a question with a question, you know better.

Is collateral damage a guide to how powerful an attack is?

In some cases, yes. Now answer my question, did Hulk cause the destruction he caused because of the dark dimension being weak, yes or no and again, if the answer is yes, why didn't this happen when other powerful entities fought in the Dark Dimension.

Thanks

Originally posted by carver9
In some cases, yes. Now answer my question, did Hulk cause the destruction he caused because of the dark dimension being weak, yes or no and again, if the answer is yes, why didn't this happen when other powerful entities fought in the Dark Dimension.

Thanks

Thanks for answering.

And to answer you, it's because of the Wishing Well playing a part. Hope that helps!

Originally posted by Enzeru
He got his head cut off in Siege and still continued fighting and killing gods. And here you have people arguing a punch can KO him. I don't even know what to say.

It's because they forget and think Hulk can just punch things lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thanks for answering.

And to answer you, it's because of the Wishing Well playing a part. Hope that helps!



It's because they forget and think Hulk can just punch things lol.

What does the scan about matter have to do with the wishing well?

Originally posted by carver9
What does the scan about matter have to do with the wishing well?
Simple. There are two factors why Hulk caused so much destruction.

Dormammu not destroying it means nothing. He has low showings,does he not( hello, Magik!)? Collateral damage isn't ALWAYS a guide to how powerful someone is/durability of something, as you say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So which is it then?

Is collateral damage a guide to how powerful an attack is?
Remember Beyonder's multiversal busting attack against Molecule Man that didn't even wreck Marsha's apartment? According to Carvster, the WBH feat is more impressive cause it wrecked parts of the Dark Dimension LOL.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Simple. There are two factors why Hulk caused so much destruction.

Dormammu not destroying it means nothing. He has low showings,does he not( hello, Magik!)? Collateral damage isn't ALWAYS a guide to how powerful someone is/durability of something, as you say.

So all of his fights in the Dark Dimension are low showings along with other powerful entities like Eternity?

Who said collateral damage is a guide? What I am saying is, you and ABHI are referencing the Dark Dimension as weak since Hulk destroyed it. Why didn't Eternity, the Avengers or Shuma destroy it during their fights? Why is it a low showing for them not destroying it but when it is destroyed by Hulk, matter had something to do with it? Would it not be a beastly showing for Hulk since he achieved results others didn't. There's plenty of examples where you agree with this concept..

Originally posted by carver9
So all of his fights in the Dark Dimension are low showings along with other powerful entities like Eternity?

Who said collateral damage is a guide? What I am saying is, you and ABHI are referencing the Dark Dimension as weak since Hulk destroyed it. Why didn't Eternity, the Avengers or Shuma destroy it during their fights? Why is it a low showing for them not destroying it but when it is destroyed by Hulk, matter had something to do with it? Would it not be a beastly showing for Hulk since he achieved results others didn't. There's plenty of examples where you agree with this concept..

Erm, you are. You're using collateral damage as a guide - WBH achieved more collateral damage than Dormammu etc, so he's more powerful.

I'm not saying it's weak. I'm saying it's weakER than 616 matter. Actually, I'M not saying it, Marvel themselves said it, in a canon comic. If it has been retconned, then post the scan. Otherwise, it's still valid and canon.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, you are. You're using collateral damage as a guide - WBH achieved more collateral damage than Dormammu etc, so he's more powerful.

I'm not saying it's weak. I'm saying it's weakER than 616 matter. Actually, I'M not saying it, Marvel themselves said it, in a canon comic. If it has been retconned, then post the scan. Otherwise, it's still valid and canon.

I never once said Hulk is more powerful than Dormammu. My question is simple, if matter there is weak, why didn't the entire area explode when other powerful entities fought there? It's a basic question. You can't discredit every showing as a low showing because you don't like the results. When Shuma was in the Dark Dimension fighting the Avengers, why didn't sh** blow up? Matter is always weak there so it should've happened. Or, did the writer not think of this? Explain please. If the writer knew matter was weak in this Dimension, why wouldn't Strange and Dormammu fight destroy it or Eternity or Shuma or the Avengers?

Originally posted by carver9
I never once said Hulk is more powerful than Dormammu. My question is simple, if matter there is weak, why didn't the entire area explode when other powerful entities fought there? It's a basic question. You can't discredit every showing as a low showing because you don't like the results. When Shuma was in the Dark Dimension fighting the Avengers, why didn't sh** blow up? Matter is always weak there so it should've happened. Or, did the writer not think of this? Explain please. If the writer knew matter was weak in this Dimension, why wouldn't Strange and Dormammu fight destroy it or Eternity or Shuma or the Avengers?

Same way the Beyonder didn't destroy that apartment? If there's no explanation, then it's PIS.

Originally posted by zopzop
Remember Beyonder's multiversal busting attack against Molecule Man that didn't even wreck Marsha's apartment? According to Carvster, the WBH feat is more impressive cause it wrecked parts of the Dark Dimension LOL.

Pretty much.

It's canon that the DD is more fragile.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same way the Beyonder didn't destroy that apartment? If there's no explanation, then it's PIS.



Pretty much.

It's canon that the DD is more fragile.

There is an explanation IF that universe/Dimension is weak.

It's canon that nothing destroyed it outside of Hulk, even Dormammu going all out.

We have canon on panel proof from Superman himself saying he can't go the speed of light but ya didn't accept it. More than one statement at that.

Originally posted by carver9
There is an explanation IF that universe/Dimension is weak.

It's canon that nothing destroyed it outside of Hulk, even Dormammu going all out.
Then you're back to collateral damage being used as if it's a reliable guide.

When it's not. As you yourself said, it can SOMETIMES be used as a guide. So what makes you decide when it can or cannot be used?

Originally posted by carver9
We have canon on panel proof from Superman himself saying he can't go the speed of light but ya didn't accept it. More than one statement at that.
Superman is not in this thread, but he is also on panel shown to have mental blocks, so ..yeah.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman is not in this thread, but he is also on panel shown to have mental blocks, so ..yeah.

That's an excuse. We have scenes of him saying he can not go such speeds.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then you're back to collateral damage being used as if it's a reliable guide.

When it's not. As you yourself said, it can SOMETIMES be used as a guide. So what makes you decide when it can or cannot be used?

We are either going to say the Dark Dimension is weaker all of the time or not. There's no in between. With that said, Shuma, Strange, The Avengers, Dormammu, Eternity, none of them caused nearly as much destruction to that Dimension during their fights. No way around this.

I never said I have rights on when it can or can not be used.

Originally posted by carver9
We are either going to say the Dark Dimension is weaker all of the time or not. There's no in between. With that said, Shuma, Strange, The Avengers, Dormammu, Eternity, none of them caused nearly as much destruction to that Dimension during their fights. No way around this.

I never said I have rights on when it can or can not be used.
But you're getting it backwards.

If the DD is said, in a canon comic, to be weaker, it doesn't matter what happens in other comics, if It hasn't been retconned.

If other comics just show contradictory evidence, without an explicit retcon, it's PIS. Simple as. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Look, if you have a more recent, canon comic saying it's the same as Earth, then I wil concede. But without it, all you have is writer error.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did you? Including that his destructive ability was potentially limited only to the Dark Dimension and his enemies in that specific scenario, and isn't extendable to a forum fight? Prove it. Prove that his destructive ability was limited only to the Dark Dimension and also his enemies in that specific scenario.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


If other comics just show contradictory evidence, without an explicit retcon, it's PIS.

I disagree with that. There are contradictions everywhere in comics without being PIS.

You are basically saying contradiction = PIS in all circumstances.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you're getting it backwards.

If the DD is said, in a canon comic, to be weaker, it doesn't matter what happens in other comics, if It hasn't been retconned.

If other comics just show contradictory evidence, without an explicit retcon, it's PIS. Simple as. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Look, if you have a more recent, canon comic saying it's the same as Earth, then I wil concede. But without it, all you have is writer error.

Then we need to keep that stance with all characters. Superman saying Darkseid is the only being that can destroy Worlds. Hulk being the strongest being in the Universe. Ironman saying that his Celestial armor, yes, the one he had stored that took on the Celestials, isn't powerful enough to stop Hulk. Thor saying Hulk may posses more raw strength than any living being...

https://ibb.co/TmLM92J

Hulk is one of the strongest beings in the Universe..

https://ibb.co/qrWrWZs

Hulk power is infinite (infinity). We have Beyonder reading Hulks power level and is saying his power is infinite. Canon, on panel. I'm sure infinite power can destroy Universes.

https://ibb.co/KGqwGrY

Hulk strength have no limits

https://ibb.co/Z12WxX8

Truly no limit to the Hulks power...

https://ibb.co/BNx1vBs

All canon, said on panel.

Originally posted by carver9
The Dark scan mention Dormammu changing the Dark Dimension to his liking, so posting those old a** scan is overdone by Dorm restructuring the Dark Dimension per his liking.

https://postlmg.cc/xkcDZcNR

Also, Doctor Strange has went all out again Dorm in this realm and the planet didn't suffer a scratch.
The book of Vishanti scan is from 2021.

Dormammu is a punk, what else is news?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm, you are. You're using collateral damage as a guide - WBH achieved more collateral damage than Dormammu etc, so he's more powerful.

I'm not saying it's weak. I'm saying it's weakER than 616 matter. Actually, I'M not saying it, Marvel themselves said it, in a canon comic. If it has been retconned, then post the scan. Otherwise, it's still valid and canon. not only as a guide but only in certain cases, as in when it helps his argument or is about the Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Then we need to keep that stance with all characters. Superman saying Darkseid is the only being that can destroy Worlds. Hulk being the strongest being in the Universe. Ironman saying that his Celestial armor, yes, the one he had stored that took on the Celestials, isn't powerful enough to stop Hulk. Thor saying Hulk may posses more raw strength than any living being...

https://ibb.co/TmLM92J

Hulk is one of the strongest beings in the Universe..

https://ibb.co/qrWrWZs

Hulk power is infinite (infinity). We have Beyonder reading Hulks power level and is saying his power is infinite. Canon, on panel. I'm sure infinite power can destroy Universes.

https://ibb.co/KGqwGrY

Hulk strength have no limits

https://ibb.co/Z12WxX8

Truly no limit to the Hulks power...

https://ibb.co/BNx1vBs

All canon, said on panel.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hell, he was straight up stated to have infinite power.

https://i.postimg.cc/YqkcTGch/12-19.jpg

No implications needed.
Infinite>>No limit, gotcha

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove it. Prove that his destructive ability was limited only to the Dark Dimension and also his enemies in that specific scenario.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And now that I have access to my PC, I will lay my argument out.

From the very start, we already knew Betty - in her unamped, normal state, was a match for Hulk durability-wise:
https://i.postimg.cc/Px0Cf2vn/RCO016-1469405362.jpg
Bear this in mind as we read on.

It was established that the Wishing Well would take a circuitous route to give you exactly what you actually want, but there would be consequences:
https://i.postimg.cc/wxst48nq/RCO017-1469405362.jpg

Now, Hulk wanted there to be no innocents around - the Well could have given him a barren world, but instead, it gave him a world full of guilty criminals to fight:
https://i.postimg.cc/pLB5Qf4K/RCO009-1469445003.jpg

No matter. The Hulk loved it either way. As he himself says:
https://i.postimg.cc/4dYKTrd1/RCO010-1469445003.jpg
Look at that smile. He is loving it.

Confirmed by the Hulk himself, that it was time to fight and die (still with that shit-eating grin on his face):
https://i.postimg.cc/59HvcFQM/RCO011-1469445003.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/wxSN9TDR/RCO012-1469445003.jpg

And confirmed again by Strange. No one was going to survive - and that was the end that the Hulk wanted:
https://i.postimg.cc/fknDpPtk/RCO013-1469445003.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/T1WTkxPZ/RCO014-1469445003.jpg

As he was surrounded by guilty criminals, he wanted them all to die, be resurrected, and die again. Over and over and over again. As a side-effect, Hulk too would die and be resurrected - because ArmCheddon wished that the Hulk would also suffer the same fate:
https://i.postimg.cc/hPTdvW0y/RCO019-1469445003.jpg

In short, the World breaking feat wasn't due to pure strength, but was due to Hulk wishing that everyone with him would die as he fought them, because they were all monsters, trapped together. The Wishing Well granted this wish, by having the entire realm be destroyed every time he fought.

Sure, there is *some* strength involved. Hulk still cut loose. My argument is that it could have been Alfred, completely cutting loose with his old-man strength, fighting a planet full of Martha Wayne corpses, and the end result would have been the same - planetary destruction.

Now, what happens when they get to Earth? Safe old Earth, filled with kittens and women and children and that sort of thing?

Remember, that Betty, without the Wishing Well amp, was already on the level of Hulk. Now she got amped by the Wishing Well. THEN she got hit by FFF's missiles (note her and WBH's size):
https://i.postimg.cc/HLsc6J1R/RCO017-1469401173.jpg

She grows to massive proportions, and casually stomps FFF (along with WBH):
https://i.postimg.cc/vZGcm1TT/RCO018-1469401173.jpg

A-bomb and She-Hulk were also amped - remember, they augmented the energy:
https://i.postimg.cc/W4WDC223/RCO015-1469401173.jpg

So we now have four gigantic Hulk beings duking it out on Earth, not holding back, completely insane with power:
https://i.postimg.cc/vZy66qqQ/RCO020-1469401173.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/1tVzdwCC/RCO019-1469401173.jpg

Yet, not even a pickup truck nearby was harmed (I've circled how close Strange was to the fight, and the truck itself):
https://i.postimg.cc/sxF2CxbV/RCO020-1469401173-1.jpg

Of course, this could well just be the suspension of belief that EndlessMike was talking about. But the comic was clear in that one didn't need to articulate the wish out loud, verbally, for it to happen - Wendigo and Cho made wishes without saying them, for example. In other words, we don't need Hulk actually saying the words for it to have been a wish.

In short, the Hulk only had the power to destroy a world in the Dark Dimension, because the Well granted him the power to do so when there were no innocents around. Once he (and 3 others!) were on Earth, a planet filled with innocents, he (and the other 3) didn't destroy Earth.

All this ignores the whole 'gravity is wonky in the DD' argument.

'Ah, DS, you're using collateral damage, you phuck!!!!' I hear people cry.

Collateral damage is ALL WBH has. This is why I kept getting Carver to harp on about Dormammu and collateral damage. Either it counts, and he fails to do on Earth with a lot of help what he did in the DD, or it doesn't count and his DD feat is useless.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'Ah, DS, I hear people cry.



*tumbleweed blows past*

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'Ah, DS, you're using collateral damage, you phuck!!!!' I hear people cry.

Collateral damage is ALL WBH has. This is why I kept getting Carver to harp on about Dormammu and collateral damage. Either it counts, and he fails to do on Earth with a lot of help what he did in the DD, or it doesn't count and his DD feat is useless.

Why didn't Umar die?

Also, why didn't earth get destroyed when Superman punched World Forger. Also, Hawkgirl, she lived through the shock waves of the punch, why? Remember, he destroyed a planet right before that.

So if everyone was supposed to die around Hulk due to the wishing well, explain why Umar lived.

Who said she didn't die?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'Ah, DS, you're using collateral damage, you phuck!!!!' I hear people cry.

Collateral damage is ALL WBH has. This is why I kept getting Carver to harp on about Dormammu and collateral damage. Either it counts, and he fails to do on Earth with a lot of help what he did in the DD, or it doesn't count and his DD feat is useless.

How does all of that answer my question (which has nothing to do with collateral damage) ? That is you and Carvers argument. Are you confusing me with him?



Anyway, here's my 2 cents on you and Carvers debate.

Collateral damage PROVES minimum force.
But LACK of Collateral damage DOES NOT PROVE maximum force.

Originally posted by h1a8
How does all of that answer my question (which has nothing to do with collateral damage) ? That is you and Carvers argument. Are you confusing me with him?



Anyway, here's my 2 cents on you and Carvers debate.

Collateral damage PROVES minimum force.
But LACK of Collateral damage DOES NOT PROVE maximum force.

You may need to read it several times to understand. I really can't hold your hand any more than I already have.....

Read the text, the words I typed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
'Ah, DS, you're using collateral damage, you phuck!!!!' I hear people cry.

it's true I say this often

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Who said she didn't die?

She didn't die. She literally saw everything reforming and even mention Hulk being the one (after the clash) bringing everyone back. She did not die.

Originally posted by carver9
She didn't die. She literally saw everything reforming and even mention Hulk being the one (after the clash) bringing everyone back. She did not die.

Where was this all said? She didn't say she saw it all happen. She just knew what happened, that's all. You're reaching here.

Originally posted by Smurph
it's true I say this often


What else would one use? Power scaling?



Fan calculations aren't feats, if Vegeta only busted a mountain against Racoome and fans calculate power levels to prove he's a galaxy buster, what actually happens should take precedence over fan theory...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where was this all said? She didn't say she saw it all happen. She just knew what happened, that's all. You're reaching here.

We saw everyone die on panel except her. She did not die.

Of course she didn't die.

Someone had to key your car.

Originally posted by carver9
We saw everyone die on panel except her. She did not die.

They literally say everyone died, lol. I know you need your hand held as well, but come on.

Dark, this happened after Hulk said we are gonna fight and die. Why didn't the planet explode here? Why did it take Hulk and She Rulk to do it? Explain please...

https://ibb.co/vXgDZy0
https://ibb.co/f9j7LJq

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where was this all said? She didn't say she saw it all happen. She just knew what happened, that's all. You're reaching here.

No, you just don't know what you're talking about. She clearly say YOU DIED here, not we. So again I ask, why didn't she die, DARK. They are even asking her if she brought them back.

https://ibb.co/qRnXXHV

Originally posted by carver9
No, you just don't know what you're talking about. She clearly say YOU DIED here, not we. So again I ask, why didn't she die, DARK. They are even asking her if she brought them back.

https://ibb.co/qRnXXHV

The comic says they all died. Everyone. That includes Umar.....

Pak totally ruined that comic by not having Hulk and Umar **** again.

Originally posted by carver9
Dark, this happened after Hulk said we are gonna fight and die. Why didn't the planet explode here? Why did it take Hulk and She Rulk to do it? Explain please...

https://ibb.co/vXgDZy0
https://ibb.co/f9j7LJq

Read the comic and your own scans, lmao. Clearly states that the Hulkbwished for them to fight like never before, and THEN die. That's why things don't start exploding until AFTER he and Betty start fighting

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The comic says they all died. Everyone. That includes Umar.....

Stop trolling. Umar literally states she didn't die. Deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Read the comic and your own scans, lmao. Clearly states that the Hulkbwished for them to fight like never before, and THEN die. That's why things don't start exploding until AFTER he and Betty start fighting

You're trolling.

Dark, why didnt Strange die?

Originally posted by carver9
Stop trolling. Umar literally states she didn't die. Deal with it and move on.

Her saying YOU died doesn't mean she didn't die, though. Cosimo andCho were asking what happened - and what happened was that they died.

The comic states twice they all died.

Originally posted by carver9
Dark, why didnt Strange die?

Strange was only there in astral form, after Cho pushed his physical fo through his portal. Plus, Bruce wanted him alive so he could bring Cho and Cosimo back to Earth.

Have you actually read the story, lol.

Originally posted by carver9
Stop trolling. Umar literally states she didn't die. Deal with it and move on.

Where does she state she doesn't die?


https://i.postimg.cc/0QN258pQ/IMG-20230211-075731.jpg


That's Strange escaping (which is why he doesn't die). Also, read Strange's words - NO ONE HERE IS GOING TO SURVIVE.

Clear as day.

Then Bruce says:
https://i.postimg.cc/JhxzWyHv/IMG-20230211-075711.jpg

The magic here will resurrect. EVERYONE. Clear as day. Then he tells Strange to get them out. Hard to resurrect if they're not dead, no?

Your argument is as silly as saying 'well, we didn't see EVERY goblin die, so the ones we didn't see die survived '. Like, how do you prove that skeleton isn't Umar?

When did Hulk supposedly made this wish? Did he make it before or after Strange left?

I also think you're reading too much into this because Tyrannus wasn't fighting. Fing Fang didn't fight. These two actually left the Dark Dimension. If the wish was for them to fight and get resurrected, how TF did Tyrannus and Fing just up and leave?

https://ibb.co/2Zq0bmX

Originally posted by carver9
When did Hulk supposedly made this wish? Did he make it before or after Strange left?
Read my post - we never actually see when Hulk makes his wishes.

Originally posted by carver9
I also think you're reading too much into this because Tyrannus wasn't fighting. Fing Fang didn't fight. These two actually left the Dark Dimension. If the wish was for them to fight and get resurrected, how TF did Tyrannus and Fing just up and leave?

https://ibb.co/2Zq0bmX

So? They still died. Amadeus wasn't fighting either. Cosimo wasn't fighting either. They still died and got resurrected - AND they managed to leave. Foom and Tyrannus et al are still supervillains, that's why he asked for Cosimo and Cho to be taken home because they didn't belong. He even tells Strange to take the kid and the woman home:
https://i.postimg.cc/pLB5Qf4K/RCO009-1469445003.jpg

Are you now saying it WASN'T the Hulk's wish to fight and die? Even though we're told multiple times this was what he wanted, and he says he wanted them all to fight and die? Like, I don't know what you're trying to argue here, it seems like you're just throwing every argument and hoping something sticks.

Strange and Banner literally say everyone died. But just because you don't see Umar specifically burning, you say she didn't.

Read my post again:



Edit: I know what your new argument is. You're trying to say that they shouldn't have been allowed to leave. But read your own scan again - Foom wanted to conquer the world - so the Wishing Well was granting him that wish.

Originally posted by carver9
I also think you're reading too much into this

Tagline for the KMC Vs forum?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Read my post - we never actually see when Hulk makes his wishes.



So? They still died. Amadeus wasn't fighting either. Cosimo wasn't fighting either. They still died and got resurrected - AND they managed to leave. Foom and Tyrannus et al are still supervillains, that's why he asked for Cosimo and Cho to be taken home because they didn't belong. He even tells Strange to take the kid and the woman home:
https://i.postimg.cc/pLB5Qf4K/RCO009-1469445003.jpg

Are you now saying it WASN'T the Hulk's wish to fight and die? Even though we're told multiple times this was what he wanted, and he says he wanted them all to fight and die? Like, I don't know what you're trying to argue here, it seems like you're just throwing every argument and hoping something sticks.

Strange and Banner literally say everyone died. But just because you don't see Umar specifically burning, you say she didn't.

Read my post again:



Edit: I know what your new argument is. You're trying to say that they shouldn't have been allowed to leave. But read your own scan again - Foom wanted to conquer the world - so the Wishing Well was granting him that wish.

So Hulks wish was to fight, FIGHT and die but there were people there that didn't fight? Did he give specifics on who he wanted to fight, names?

If we didn't see when he made the wish, how are we to assume that he made the wish before or after the clash? Also, where was it stated that this pertains to only Hulk fighting?

Why is Strange talking about Hulks power here in the Dark Dimension? He's literally referencing Hulk not holding back and the destruction he caused in the Dark dimension...

https://ibb.co/89p0PrN

Tyrannus mentioning be saved Earth from the backlash of power...

https://ibb.co/s2xFLsx

Originally posted by carver9
So Hulks wish was to fight, FIGHT and die but there were people there that didn't fight? Did he give specifics on who he wanted to fight, names?

If we didn't see when he made the wish, how are we to assume that he made the wish before or after the clash? Also, where was it stated that this pertains to only Hulk fighting?

Why is Strange talking about Hulks power here in the Dark Dimension? He's literally referencing Hulk not holding back and the destruction he caused in the Dark dimension...

https://ibb.co/89p0PrN

Tyrannus mentioning be saved Earth from the backlash of power...

https://ibb.co/s2xFLsx

So have you moved on from Umar not dying or are you just going to keep reacting?

She didn't die. Your argument is just all over the place. If she would have died, she wouldn't have said YOU died, she would've said we.

Originally posted by carver9
She didn't die. Your argument is just all over the place. If she would have died, she wouldn't have said YOU died, she would've said we.

She said you because.....she was talking to Cho and Cosimo. That's all.

It's like me telling you 'Carver, you're human'. Does that automatically mean I'm not??? Wut.

Banner and Strange both said everyone died. Explain that.

*tumbleweed*

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She said you because.....she was talking to Cho and Cosimo. That's all.

It's like me telling you 'Carver, you're human'. Does that automatically mean I'm not??? Wut.

Banner and Strange both said everyone died. Explain that.

She should've said we and when Cho asked her if she brought them back from the dead, she states why she would waste time doing that. She can't bring someone from the dead if she is dead.

Also, why is Strange and Hulk primarily talking about strength here...

https://ibb.co/Y27y4pS

Just to be clear, you're saying Pak wrote Hulk busting the planet using magic and not strength?

Originally posted by carver9
She should've said we and when Cho asked her if she brought them back from the dead, she states why she would waste time doing that. She can't bring someone from the dead if she is dead.

Also, why is Strange and Hulk primarily talking about strength here...

https://ibb.co/Y27y4pS

Just to be clear, you're saying Pak wrote Hulk busting the planet using magic and not strength?

I'm saying it's both strength and magic. As I have said from the very start, which you'd know had you actually read my post.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm saying it's both strength and magic. As I have said from the very start, which you'd know had you actually read my post.

What factor did Magic have in the planet busting? Explain please because Strange specifically referenced Hulks strength on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by carver9
What factor did Magic have in the planet busting? Explain please because Strange specifically referenced Hulks strength on more than one occasion.

Undecided. Which is my entire point. Magic played an unspecified, unquantifiable amount in the feat. But it WAS a factor, which h1 needed to take into account when doing his maths.

Strange referencing strength doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They literally say everyone died, lol. I know you need your hand held as well, but come on. Except Hulk and Betty didn't die when they clashed?

Originally posted by ODG
Except Hulk and Betty didn't die when they clashed?

Originally posted by ODG
Except Hulk and Betty didn't die when they clashed?

We clearly see them in the heart of the attack without a scratch while everyone else was melting. Dark is just reaching and it's irritating.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Undecided. Which is my entire point. Magic played an unspecified, unquantifiable amount in the feat. But it WAS a factor, which h1 needed to take into account when doing his maths.

Strange referencing strength doesn't mean anything.

Here it does because Strange was terrified of Hulk destroying Earth. Yes, it didn't happen right away but Strange mentioned if the Hulks kept fighting, Earth would be doomed.

Originally posted by carver9
We clearly see them in the heart of the attack without a scratch while everyone else was melting. Dark is just reaching and it's irritating.

Whereas I saw it as they did die. Everyone was burning and reforming.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Undecided. Which is my entire point. Magic played an unspecified, unquantifiable amount in the feat. But it WAS a factor, which h1 needed to take into account when doing his maths.

Strange referencing strength doesn't mean anything.
Hulk is credited to half the feat.
Magic was not a factor in Hulk's half.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk is credited to half the feat.
Magic was not a factor in Hulk's half.

Why not?

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk is credited to half the feat.
Magic was not a factor in Hulk's half.

My simple request is, prove that it was purely a strength feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My simple request is, prove that it was purely a strength feat. There is no evidence to suggest that Hulk's strength was amped by magic. Therefore it wasn't.

Also in later comics Banner became World breaker as reference.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whereas I saw it as they did die. Everyone was burning and reforming. In the pages where everybody was burning and dying... Hulk and Betty were smiling while clashing? And afterwards they were clashing and people were dying and Hulk and Betty were fine?

Originally posted by ODG
In the pages where everybody was burning and dying... Hulk and Betty were smiling while clashing? And afterwards they were clashing and people were dying and Hulk and Betty were fine?

I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving.

I took it as they all died - again, because Strange said everyone was going to die, the Hulk wished for all of them to die, and Banner said that they all would die and get resurrected to fight over and over again.

Arm'Cheddon wished for him to suffer as Arm'Cheddon suffered - which includes dying and burning. Everyone who had a hand in the wish would suffer too - apart from Tyrannus, which is how he had an opening loophole to escape.

At least, I THINK it's Arm'Cheddon - he seems to change colour, lol:

https://i.postimg.cc/6T4RzLPR/RCO017-1469445003.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/YLFW9MF8/RCO019-1469445003.jpg

Is that someone else?

Originally posted by h1a8
There is no evidence to suggest that Hulk's strength was amped by magic. Therefore it wasn't.

Also in later comics Banner became World breaker as reference.
The wish was applicable to the Dark Dimension, because Umar kidnapped the Hulk in the first place and brought him to her home:
https://i.postimg.cc/7hYn1zDM/RCO008-1469445003.jpg

Outside of it, even when all the Hulks were fighting and cutting loose together, when amped, they didn't do anything.

Him being titled Worldbreaker means nothing. He never did what he did in the HotM storyline, when he was in the Dark Dimension, again, which further bolsters my point.

I'm just here for the Umar scans droolio

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm just here for the Umar scans droolio

You disgusting perv...

https://i.postimg.cc/Nj9LnkxC/RCO005-1469445062.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving.

I took it as they all died - again, because Strange said everyone was going to die, the Hulk wished for all of them to die, and Banner said that they all would die and get resurrected to fight over and over again.

Arm'Cheddon wished for him to suffer as Arm'Cheddon suffered - which includes dying and burning. Everyone who had a hand in the wish would suffer too - apart from Tyrannus, which is how he had an opening loophole to escape.

At least, I THINK it's Arm'Cheddon - he seems to change colour, lol:

https://i.postimg.cc/6T4RzLPR/RCO017-1469445003.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/YLFW9MF8/RCO019-1469445003.jpg

Is that someone else?


The wish was applicable to the Dark Dimension, because Umar kidnapped the Hulk in the first place and brought him to her home:
https://i.postimg.cc/7hYn1zDM/RCO008-1469445003.jpg

Outside of it, even when all the Hulks were fighting and cutting loose together, when amped, they didn't do anything.

Him being titled Worldbreaker means nothing. He never did what he did in the HotM storyline, when he was in the Dark Dimension, again, which further bolsters my point.

I still don't see any evidence that magic amped Hulk's strength. It amped Betty's strength, but not Hulk's.


It means everything. When Hulk achieved the feat the word "WORLD BREAKER" was stated on panel.
When. Later, the same reference was given when Hulk transformed into WBH. Author's intent was that Hulk can reach those levels anytime he wanted. This is called evidence.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You disgusting perv...

https://i.postimg.cc/Nj9LnkxC/RCO005-1469445062.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
I still don't see any evidence that magic amped Hulk's strength. It amped Betty's strength, but not Hulk's.


It means everything. When Hulk achieved the feat the word "WORLD BREAKER" was stated on panel.
When. Later, the same reference was given when Hulk transformed into WBH. Author's intent was that Hulk can reach those levels anytime he wanted. This is called evidence.

He only could do what he did, because of the wishes. Without the wishes, he didn't break any worlds - even when he was later massively amped. Umar wished him to her dimension, and it backfires by having him destroy her realm.

Where is the evidence that he is capable of doing so, beyond mere titles? Beyond hyperbole?

Even when he WANTED to, and thought he was still in the DD, and had massively amped, insane Hulks with him...no worldbreaking:
https://i.postimg.cc/vZy66qqQ/RCO020-1469401173.jpg

Note his words - he thought he could still cut loose and destroy everything (ergo, was NOT holding back). He was gigantic in size (was massively amped - note his size compared to Amadeus - Choi is like his nostril in size):

https://i.postimg.cc/fy9bJwg7/RCO019-1469401173.jpg

No destruction. He wasn't melting amped heralds with the mere shockwaves, nothing. Because he was actually (unbeknownst to him) back on Earth, where the original DD-destroying wishes weren't applicable.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He only could do what he did, because of the wishes. Without the wishes, he didn't break any worlds - even when he was later massively amped. Umar wished him to her dimension, and it backfires by having him destroy her realm.

Where is the evidence that he is capable of doing so, beyond mere titles? Beyond hyperbole?

Even when he WANTED to, and thought he was still in the DD, and had massively amped, insane Hulks with him...no worldbreaking:
https://i.postimg.cc/vZy66qqQ/RCO020-1469401173.jpg

Note his words - he thought he could still cut loose and destroy everything (ergo, was NOT holding back). He was gigantic in size (was massively amped - note his size compared to Amadeus - Choi is like his nostril in size):

https://i.postimg.cc/fy9bJwg7/RCO019-1469401173.jpg

No destruction. He wasn't melting amped heralds with the mere shockwaves, nothing. Because he was actually (unbeknownst to him) back on Earth, where the original DD-destroying wishes weren't applicable.

That's not any evidence that magic amped his strength. Hulk let loose because he knew everyone would come back to life. That was his wish (for everyone to come back to life) .

Greg Pak even explained this (WBH achieved the feat due to no longer holding back). The comic explains this as well. It retcons every moment as Hulk holding back until that moment.

Your argument is flawed due to it being grounded in possible inconsistent showings (like Marvell manhandling Drax after Drax destroyed planets and ripped stars). I'm not even convinced that the giant Hulk wasn't holding back (as it would contradict the comic stating that Hulk was always holding back until becoming world breaker)

Originally posted by h1a8
That's not any evidence that magic amped his strength. Hulk let loose because he knew everyone would come back to life. That was his wish (for everyone to come back to life) .

Greg Pak even explained this (WBH achieved the feat due to no longer holding back). The comic explains this as well. It retcons every moment as Hulk holding back until that moment.

Your argument is flawed due to it being grounded in possible inconsistent showings (like Marvell manhandling Drax after Drax destroyed planets and ripped stars). I'm not even convinced that the giant Hulk wasn't holding back (as it would contradict the comic stating that Hulk was always holding back until becoming world breaker)

Except he thought he was still in the Dark Dimension.

Betty was also there, and she was equal to his strength (as you note). She was ALSO amped.

Jen and Rick were also there, and they were also amped to the point they were happily (literally - I think they were laughing) trading blows with the aforementioned amped WBH and Betty (so more amped than they were in the DD). Jen and Rick weren't holding back either, as we saw that they were driven insane with power. So that's FOUR massive Hulks, trading blows, on Earth, with nary a scratch.

You argue that Hulk stopped holding back because he Knew everyone would come back to life. Agree.

He was still under this impression, that everyone would come back to life, when he was on Earth. It's explained in the comic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving. I'm beginning to wonder if we're looking at the same comic. I'm referring to Incredible Hulks #635. When Betty collided with Hulk the first time, Fin Fang Foom, Amadeus, Dr. Di Cosomo were all being vaporized. Betty and Hulk were unscathed. The rest, not so much.

There's a grand total of 11 panels illustrating the actual time-stop in that issue. I don't see where people are moving during the time stop other than Strange's and Bruce's astral projections.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except he thought he was still in the Dark Dimension.

Betty was also there, and she was equal to his strength (as you note). She was ALSO amped.

Jen and Rick were also there, and they were also amped to the point they were happily (literally - I think they were laughing) trading blows with the aforementioned amped WBH and Betty (so more amped than they were in the DD). Jen and Rick weren't holding back either, as we saw that they were driven insane with power. So that's FOUR massive Hulks, trading blows, on Earth, with nary a scratch.

You argue that Hulk stopped holding back because he Knew everyone would come back to life. Agree.

He was still under this impression, that everyone would come back to life, when he was on Earth. It's explained in the comic.

What does any of that have to do with proving that magic amped his strength?

No where does it mention that magic made him stronger. Even Greg Pak in an interview explained the feat (magic had nothing to do with it, but Hulk letting loose fully).

Originally posted by ODG
I'm beginning to wonder if we're looking at the same comic. I'm referring to Incredible Hulks #635. When Betty collided with Hulk the first time, Fin Fang Foom, Amadeus, Dr. Di Cosomo were all being vaporized. Betty and Hulk were unscathed. The rest, not so much.

There's a grand total of 11 panels illustrating the actual time-stop in that issue. I don't see where people are moving during the time stop other than Strange's and Bruce's astral projections.

After Strange says 'stop', we see two panels with Hulk and Betty, with her fist and his head in different positions:

https://i.postimg.cc/HcNGDpnk/RCO007-1469401173.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/XGqMzZVP/RCO008-1469401173.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
What does any of that have to do with proving that magic amped his strength?

No where does it mention that magic made him stronger. Even Greg Pak in an interview explained the feat (magic had nothing to do with it, but Hulk letting loose fully).

Interviews are inadmissible.

He only caused that much magical collateral damage whilst in the Dark Dimension, outside of it people were fine. He wasn't holding back when he landed back on Earth, nor were the three other amped Hulks holding back. None of them caused the same amount of damage.

WBH's entire feat is down to collateral damage. The shockwaves from his punch etc etc.

Yet, suddenly, we are meant to ignore collateral damage (or, lack of it) despite him being much more powerful, with opponents much more powerful than just Betty on her own?

After the comic spelled out that he wished for a battlefield with no innocents around (i.e the Dark Dimension)?

After the comic spelled out that the Wishing Well backfires on the wishmakers, one of whom included Umar, and this backfiring includes the destruction of her realm?

How much hand holding does one need?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Interviews are inadmissible.

He only caused that much magical collateral damage whilst in the Dark Dimension, outside of it people were fine. He wasn't holding back when he landed back on Earth, nor were the three other amped Hulks holding back. None of them caused the same amount of damage.

WBH's entire feat is down to collateral damage. The shockwaves from his punch etc etc.

Yet, suddenly, we are meant to ignore collateral damage (or, lack of it) despite him being much more powerful, with opponents much more powerful than just Betty on her own?

After the comic spelled out that he wished for a battlefield with no innocents around (i.e the Dark Dimension)?

After the comic spelled out that the Wishing Well backfires on the wishmakers, one of whom included Umar, and this backfiring includes the destruction of her realm?

How much hand holding does one need?

The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.

Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode), I don't need to.

The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort).

With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.

Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.

Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together.,

Originally posted by h1a8
The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.

With that said, you can twist the argument anyway you like. The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort). Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode). All the time he was still holding back before that.

With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.

Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.

Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together., Wow, h1 owned in this thread, don't think I've ever seen posters owned as badly ever.

Originally posted by h1a8
The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.

Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode), I don't need to.

The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort).

With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.

Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.

Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together.,

Indeed, comic inconsistency exists.

However, we have two showings here:

1. Where he fights Betty in the DD, and the shockwaves from their hits melt amped beings and the DD.
2. Where he fights Betty, Rick and Jen on Earth, still believes he's in the DD, no mention is made of Betty (his equal) holding back, and Rick and Jen are insane with power. Oh and all four are amped (none of which you acknowledged).

My argument is based purely on what we saw in comics. In the DD, he melted everything with Betty. On Earth, nothing of the sort happened, despite being massively more amped.

Literally by the same author, hell in the same comic.

So why is your collateral damage feat admissible, and the other completely ignored? It's not even like we have a wealth of other times Hulk went WBH and did anything similar.

*tumbleweed*

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
After Strange says 'stop', we see two panels with Hulk and Betty, with her fist and his head in different positions:

https://i.postimg.cc/HcNGDpnk/RCO007-1469401173.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/XGqMzZVP/RCO008-1469401173.jpg I honestly don't see a large variance in their relevant positions.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Indeed, comic inconsistency exists.

However, we have two showings here:

1. Where he fights Betty in the DD, and the shockwaves from their hits melt amped beings and the DD.
2. Where he fights Betty, Rick and Jen on Earth, still believes he's in the DD, no mention is made of Betty (his equal) holding back, and Rick and Jen are insane with power. Oh and all four are amped (none of which you acknowledged).

My argument is based purely on what we saw in comics. In the DD, he melted everything with Betty. On Earth, nothing of the sort happened, despite being massively more amped.

Literally by the same author, hell in the same comic.

So why is your collateral damage feat admissible, and the other completely ignored? It's not even like we have a wealth of other times Hulk went WBH and did anything similar.

You ignored my statement when I stated that Hulk became WBH when he seen Betty kiss Tyrannus. That triggered the mode. Before that he wasn't at WBH levels. Hulk only became WB upon serious emotional compromise.
WBH is more powerful than amped Hulk (thsts not in WB mode).


Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
Collateral damage is proof of minimum power.

Simple logic.

Glad you agree that fiction inconsistency happens (although it's not present here).

Originally posted by ODG
I honestly don't see a large variance in their relevant positions.

Which is kinda my point - there shouldn't be ANY variance.

Originally posted by h1a8
You ignored my statement when I stated that Hulk became WBH when he seen Betty kiss Tyrannus. That triggered the mode. Before that he wasn't at WBH levels. Hulk only became WB upon serious emotional compromise.
WBH is more powerful than amped Hulk (thsts not in WB mode).


Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
Collateral damage is proof of minimum power.

Simple logic.

Glad you agree that fiction inconsistency happens (although it's not present here).

He was on Earth after the kiss, bruh. Read the comic. THEN WBH got amped up.

Timeline is:
Dark Dimension - >kiss - >DD blows up ->goes to Earth ->gets massively amped ->nothing happens->depowers himself and everyone.

But ok, it's consistent, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which is kinda my point - there shouldn't be ANY variance.



He was on Earth after the kiss, bruh. Read the comic. THEN WBH got amped up.

Timeline is:
Dark Dimension - >kiss - >DD blows up ->goes to Earth ->gets massively amped ->nothing happens->depowers himself and everyone.

But ok, it's consistent, lol.

Yes there should be. What artist draws the exact same picture twice to the nearest millimeter? Even in movies when time is frozen you see variances in position. This is fiction, not real life. Artist error.
Focus on the plot and writer's intent and not nitpick a artist drawn something a millimeter off. Geez. So if a writer explicitly states that time is frozen but artist draws picture ever so slightly off then phuck what the writer said?

Your are not understanding. Only very emotional things will trigger the WBH.
Hulk will not stay in WBH forever. He turns back normal.

For your reference. WBH is beyond millions of times more powerful than standard Hulk. That means WBH is astronomically more powerful than an amped Hulk too. Hulk always holds back (unless WB is triggered through some very emotional event).

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes there should be. What artist draws the exact same picture twice to the nearest millimeter? Even in movies when time is frozen you see variances in position. This is fiction, not real life. Artist error.
Focus on the plot and writer's intent and not nitpick a artist drawn something a millimeter off. Geez. So if a writer explicitly states that time is frozen but artist draws picture ever so slightly off then phuck what the writer said?

Your are not understanding. Only very emotional things will trigger the WBH.
Hulk will not stay in WBH forever. He turns back normal.

For your reference. WBH is beyond millions of times more powerful than standard Hulk. That means WBH is astronomically more powerful than an amped Hulk too. Hulk always holds back (unless WB is triggered through some very emotional event). Truth is WBH , WWH and other versions of Hulk likewise ARE AMPED VERSIONS OF HULK, no different than the other versions of Superman like ALL STAR and JL#25, PRE-CRISIS SILVER and BRONZE AGE.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes there should be. What artist draws the exact same picture twice to the nearest millimeter? Even in movies when time is frozen you see variances in position. This is fiction, not real life. Artist error.
Focus on the plot and writer's intent and not nitpick a artist drawn something a millimeter off. Geez. So if a writer explicitly states that time is frozen but artist draws picture ever so slightly off then phuck what the writer said?

Your are not understanding. Only very emotional things will trigger the WBH.
Hulk will not stay in WBH forever. He turns back normal.

For your reference. WBH is beyond millions of times more powerful than standard Hulk. That means WBH is astronomically more powerful than an amped Hulk too. Hulk always holds back (unless WB is triggered through some very emotional event).

I literally said it was artist's error, lmao. Please pay attention.

So your new argument is that he was WBH for that single punch, and then afterwards he was calmed down, and we never see EBH at his height ever again.
Lol, ok.

Dark is trolling.

Originally posted by carver9
Dark is trolling.

How am I trolling?

Do you agree with h1, then, that WBH was only present for that one punch, and then calmed down after that? Yes or no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How am I trolling?

Do you agree with h1, then, that WBH was only present for that one punch, and then calmed down after that? Yes or no?


You're the one that keeps mentioning Earth exploding when it's pretty freaking obvious why the planet didn't turn to dust when Celestials, Hulk and other beings fight on it. It's not a fodder planet. It's like asking how was Lois able to stand beside Doomsday and Superman during their fight when overall YOU said they were fighting at super speed...

She didn't even get a scratch and she was right beside them.

https://ibb.co/p1c72TV

Originally posted by carver9
You're the one that keeps mentioning Earth exploding when it's pretty freaking obvious why the planet didn't turn to dust when Celestials, Hulk and other beings fight on it. It's not a fodder planet. It's like asking how was Lois able to stand beside Doomsday and Superman during their fight when overall YOU said they were fighting at super speed...

She didn't even get a scratch and she was right beside them.

https://ibb.co/p1c72TV

Yes.....or no?

I dont agree with either of you. H1 who said WBH wasn't always present and you downplaying Hulk because he didn't destroy Earth. At least H1 is consistent (don't mean that as an insult but you don't play the same cards with other characters).

So you want me to be consistent, you say.

Ok, consistently, how many times has WBH melted heralds? Or was it the one time?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you want me to be consistent, you say.

Ok, consistently, how many times has WBH melted heralds? Or was it the one time?

What Heralds were around him to melt while he was unleashed?. Let's start there.

While answering that, remember this.

https://ibb.co/9rwSf0H

Unleashed Hulk. Lol, a Hulk that just said he was holding back that wishing well power (lmmfao), he's no longer holding back. He's going to let all of thar wishing well power loose.

Originally posted by carver9
While answering that, remember this.

https://ibb.co/9rwSf0H

Unleashed Hulk. Lol, a Hulk that just said he was holding back that wishing well power (lmmfao), he's no longer holding back. He's going to let all of thar wishing well power loose.

Ooh nice scan, very nice.

Let's start with the times he wasn't holding back. You know, when he thought he was still in the Dark Dimension

Then on top of that, people ALWAYS forget that the feat in the DD was ALSO Betty's. SHE didn't wish for an innocent free world to let loose in; she doesn't 'always hold back'. So how many times did she melt heralds (let's not go as high as heralds, lol. Let's start with street level humans).

Now do you see? Remember, your scan has WBH when he was still relatively human sized, i.e. unamped.

I'm going to ask again, what Heralds were around? Also, who said the ft didn't belong to Betty as well?

Originally posted by carver9
I'm going to ask again, what Heralds were around? Also, who said the ft didn't belong to Betty as well?

Rick and Jen. Strange (I believe he wasn't at his best, he's usually trans level so herald feels good).

I didn't say you said that. I said (read carefully) that even though she's never been said to hold back like Bruce has, even though she was amped beyond what she was in the DD, she didn't melt anyone.

Carv, hello!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Rick and Jen. Strange (I believe he wasn't at his best, he's usually trans level so herald feels good).

I didn't say you said that. I said (read carefully) that even though she's never been said to hold back like Bruce has, even though she was amped beyond what she was in the DD, she didn't melt anyone.

I already answered this. There was no one to melt and people didn't melt every time Hulk and Betty threw a punch. I thought you knew how comics work. There's plenty of examples of similar things happening everywhere. Superboy Prime tanking hits from the JLA/JSA but Superboy making him bleed with punches under the same writer on more than one occasion. Heck, Superboy endured punches from Prime moments before he destroyed the Phantom Zone.

Originally posted by carver9
I already answered this. There was no one to melt and people didn't melt every time Hulk and Betty threw a punch. I thought you knew how comics work. There's plenty of examples of similar things happening everywhere. Superboy Prime tanking hits from the JLA/JSA but Superboy making him bleed with punches under the same writer on more than one occasion. Heck, Superboy endured punches from Prime moments before he destroyed the Phantom Zone.

So he only melted heralds when the plot called for it. When Strange, Cho, Cosimo etc were around, nothing happened.

Got ya.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So he only melted heralds when the plot called for it. When Strange, Cho, Cosimo etc were around, nothing happened.

Got ya.

Just to show us how powerful he was in the beginning, kind of in line with Superman, who was amped beyond anything he's ever been at but did little damage to a planet or to humans and metas around him. Just how comics work. Both Hulk and Superman are weak AF.

Originally posted by carver9
Just to show us how powerful he was in the beginning, kind of in line with Superman, who was amped beyond anything he's ever been at but did little damage to a planet or to humans and metas around him. Just how comics work. Both Hulk and Superman are weak AF.

So plot driven, I see. He's powerful because he's done this, he's done this because he's powerful.

Well in a forum fight there's no writer or plot driving that WBH has to melt anyone or anything. So he can't, according to your logic.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So plot driven, I see. He's powerful because he's done this, he's done this because he's powerful.

Well in a forum fight there's no writer or plot driving that WBH has to melt anyone or anything. So he can't, according to your logic.

Right!!! Superman punch against World Forger was weak AF even while amped and Hulk can't melt heralds. I agree.

Well considering all WBH has is collateral damage, then it looks pretty poor for him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well considering all WBH has is collateral damage, then it looks pretty poor for him.

Looks pretty poor for Superman and World Forger since Superman at his most powerful ever couldn't melt let alone injure low tier beings with his punch or destroy a planet. Can't get any worse than that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well considering all WBH has is collateral damage, then it looks pretty poor for him.


Originally posted by carver9
Looks pretty poor for Superman and World Forger since Superman at his most powerful ever couldn't melt let alone injure low tier beings with his punch or destroy a planet. Can't get any worse than that. collateral damage isn't proof to maximum power. It's proof to minimum power.

For example, collateral damage that lifts a 65 ton tank in the air proves that the actual force applied was between 65 and infinite tons.

Originally posted by carver9
Looks pretty poor for Superman and World Forger since Superman at his most powerful ever couldn't melt let alone injure low tier beings with his punch or destroy a planet. Can't get any worse than that.

Yeah you can.

See amped WBH lol. Normal pickup trucks, human Amadeus and Cosimo.

At least Batman has herald level feats. Remember him and WW? I'm sure you do.

Besides, Superman isn't here, even though you're the guy who keeps using that as an excuse.

Originally posted by carver9

Both Hulk and Superman are weak AF.

True, which is why Sentry wins, like we've established it on page 1.

Originally posted by Enzeru
True, which is why Sentry wins, like we've established it on page 1.

Lol, it's pretty much "But WBH has all these collateral damage feats!"

"What about his lack of collateral damage later on?"

"Oh...collateral damage doesn't count!"

But glad we all now agree that Dark Dimension matter is more fragile.

Why does Sentry win, Saint? What fts?