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Credit to Frozen on comicvine:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/palpatine-and-darth-vader-are-relative-darth-vader-2323807/

Thoughts?

Nice that we get threads/arguments based solely on canon material.

What time period did that Vader/Palpatine fight happen in btw?

Between ESB-ROTJ

https://i.ibb.co/VV7J1V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-012.jpg https://i.ibb.co/s54Y1PM/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-014.jpg https://i.ibb.co/DwkMGRp/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/chCb7V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-016.jpg https://i.ibb.co/c19qz3t/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/1dtbhdh/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-018.jpg https://i.ibb.co/wMg4Xv2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-019.jpg

Vader is certainly more powerful now than ever -- this newfound control he's gained over his emotions/hatred seems to have provided a substantial boost(as Palpatine himself mentioned.) That said, I personally still view Palpatine as notably superior... Once he FL-TK'd Vader against the wall, he was pretty much glued there for the rest of the skirmish, and had to rely on outside 'assistance' to get out of that situation. The impressive part was Vader blocking the FL with one arm while he was TK'ing the droids with his other arm.

Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug


But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ.

Weirdly enough, I feel this is actually a worse showing for Vader than when he confronted Palpatine much earlier in the run. Last time Palpatine was blasting lightning at Vader, Vader still managed to advance on him, pushing through the lightning and almost reaching him before Mas Amedda and the Red Guard stepped in to distract Vader. This time around, Vader was on his back foot the whole time Palpatine was blasting away at him. Sure, it's impressive that Vader was able to block the lightning with one hand and use the Force with the other, but nothing he did really depicted him pushing Palpatine. Instead, Vader just forced Palpatine to break off his focus on Vader to deal with the scourge. Of Vader's many confrontations with Palpatine since the 2020 comic runs started, this is one of the less impressive ones in my eyes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug

But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ.
Boy, we've sure come a long way since Lords of the Sith dropped a decade ago, and we figured Vader was sort of close to the Emperor's power, but the Emperor was still >, and the only question was by how much. Oh, but this one is set in 3 ABY instead of 14 BBY, so it's totally different. Vader will stop being the Emperor's ***** any day now... and Luke will finally be good enough to beat up the Emperor in Return of the Jedi... what exciting times we live in.

I'm not that impressed tbh, Vader didn't manage to do anything... however I'm interested in this droid plague, I may start reading this comic series

Originally posted by Galan007
Vader is certainly more powerful now than ever -- this newfound control he's gained over his emotions/hatred seems to have provided a substantial boost(as Palpatine himself mentioned.) That said, I personally still view Palpatine as notably superior... Once he FL-TK'd Vader against the wall, he was pretty much glued there for the rest of the skirmish, and had to rely on outside 'assistance' to get out of that situation. The impressive part was Vader blocking the FL with one arm while he was TK'ing the droids with his other arm.

Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug


But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ. Other thing to consider is how Sidious has dealt with the force wave in general compared to Vader. Vader is just now BARELY learning how to maintain control with the wild fluctuations in the force, and he seems pressed to do so. Meanwhile, Sidious doesn't seem like he's been affected at all by it due to his superior control.

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Weirdly enough, I feel this is actually a worse showing for Vader than when he confronted Palpatine much earlier in the run. Last time Palpatine was blasting lightning at Vader, Vader still managed to advance on him, pushing through the lightning and almost reaching him before Mas Amedda and the Red Guard stepped in to distract Vader. This time around, Vader was on his back foot the whole time Palpatine was blasting away at him. Sure, it's impressive that Vader was able to block the lightning with one hand and use the Force with the other, but nothing he did really depicted him pushing Palpatine. Instead, Vader just forced Palpatine to break off his focus on Vader to deal with the scourge. Of Vader's many confrontations with Palpatine since the 2020 comic runs started, this is one of the less impressive ones in my eyes. I'll give Vader the benefit of the doubt and assume that Sidious may have been holding back during that other FL encounter, because here Sidious definitely needed to dig a little deeper to overpower Vader. But once he did Vader was pretty much helpless against the wall.

Yeah, I wouldn't say "helpless" is the right word, given that Vader was capable of preforming other tasks while combating the FL. But he was pinned against the wall, and didn't exactly seem to be making any noteworthy forward progress at all. Had the droids not been there to help break Palpatine's concentration, then I don't know what Vader could have really done, aside from hoping that Palpatine burned out first(which is unlikely.) /shrug

Also, the final pages implied that even with Vader's newfound powerup, he still realized that he wasn't capable of defeating Palpatine alone -- hence while he allowed the scourge to incorporate into his system immediately afterward:
https://ibb.co/j4JZfFy
https://ibb.co/DDpHG5t
"Now you see... You cannot defeat him alone... You need me."


At any rate, we already know that during RotJ itself, Vader was still Palpatine's subservient lapdog(ie. "I MUST obey my Master!" So barring some sort of major revelation that fully alters what we currently know about movie canon, it's not like Vader is ever going to become a true threat/rival to Palpatine in a one-on-one scenario... Even "closer to" Palpatine's level(like Vader is now), is still not Palpatine's level.

Will be interesting to see what happens by the time this arc is wrapped up, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.ibb.co/VV7J1V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-012.jpg https://i.ibb.co/s54Y1PM/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-014.jpg https://i.ibb.co/DwkMGRp/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/chCb7V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-016.jpg https://i.ibb.co/c19qz3t/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/1dtbhdh/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-018.jpg https://i.ibb.co/wMg4Xv2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-019.jpg

Vader is certainly more powerful now than ever -- this newfound control he's gained over his emotions/hatred seems to have provided a substantial boost(as Palpatine himself mentioned.) That said, I personally still view Palpatine as notably superior... Once he FL-TK'd Vader against the wall, he was pretty much glued there for the rest of the skirmish, and had to rely on outside 'assistance' to get out of that situation. The impressive part was Vader blocking the FL with one arm while he was TK'ing the droids with his other arm.

Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug


But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ. the problem is this extended Universe stuff has never really flown with the movies. Vaders arc on the screen is imo relatively coherant and complete.

I'd agree that Vader was able to go from a submissive position(ie. when Palpatine initially FL-TK'd him against the wall), back into a defensive position(ie. when Vader began to actively block the FL again), but that's really... All he ultimately managed. At the end of the day he was still decisively pinned against the wall, and had to rely on third party shenanigans to get out of it. Vader is obviously very powerful(now moreso than ever), but Palpatine is just... More.

I also don't like having to rely on zoomed-in/hyper-analyzed individual comic panels to try and make the feat more impressive than it is. I've been reading comics long enough to know that if a writer intends to make something obvious for their target demographic(which are kids, tbh) to understand, they typically do via explicit narration, and/or clear-cut artwork.

Well firstly, I was only speaking to their one-on-one confrontation. Secondly, Palpatine nullified the scourge shortly afterward when he activated "protocol 23" and wiped out a couple sectors of Coruscant.

So even from that perspective, Vader ultimately didn't accomplish anything.

Palpatine didn't give a shit about destroying sectors of Courscant(he made that much clear in his dialogue with Vader.) There was no longer a Senate, after all, so it's not like he had to come up with an excuse for anyone. In the past, Palpatine sought to avoid collateral damage on his capital world, but in this particular case he... Didn't really care. Vader's "trump card" ultimately gained him nothing at all.

As for what Palpatine accomplished: he once against 'reminded' Vader of the order of things(ie. why he is the Master)... A fact that Vader himself seemed to acknowledge, hence why he allowed the scourge to incorporate itself into his system shortly afterward. In the end, Vader could only manage to mount a purely defensive position -- he was capable of blocking Palpatine's lightning, but he was also pinned against the wall for the duration of their scuffle. I do not at all see how that suggests parity between them, especially when you factor in the final pages of the issue. Now if Vader had made any legitimate forward progress towards Palpatine, then sure, I'd probably agree with you... But he didn't. He needed a distraction. /shrug

As I mentioned earlier: even IF Vader is 'close to' Palpatine's level now, Palpatine is still >... Which isn't a knock against Vader; Palpatine is just an entirely different animal.

Nice new feat and scaling for Vader

Mace Windu put up a better fight against RotS Sid

Mace objectively did worse, against a much weaker version of Sidious, as explained in the CV post:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/palpatine-and-darth-vader-are-relative-darth-vader-2323807/

^ Pretty sure that's not objective lol

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.ibb.co/VV7J1V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-012.jpg https://i.ibb.co/s54Y1PM/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-014.jpg https://i.ibb.co/DwkMGRp/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/chCb7V2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-016.jpg https://i.ibb.co/c19qz3t/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/1dtbhdh/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-018.jpg https://i.ibb.co/wMg4Xv2/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-040-2024-Digital-sd-Kileko-Empire-019.jpg

Vader is certainly more powerful now than ever -- this newfound control he's gained over his emotions/hatred seems to have provided a substantial boost(as Palpatine himself mentioned.) That said, I personally still view Palpatine as notably superior... Once he FL-TK'd Vader against the wall, he was pretty much glued there for the rest of the skirmish, and had to rely on outside 'assistance' to get out of that situation. The impressive part was Vader blocking the FL with one arm while he was TK'ing the droids with his other arm.

Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug


But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ.
The feeling I got from this arc so far is that Vader and Palpatine are on the same league in terms of power.
Palpatine is still more powerful than Vader, but Vader still can hold his own against him for a while. As seen in this issue that Vader is doing a large area TK while blocks Palpatine's lightning. And after that fight, Vader seems has no apparent injuries.
Originally posted by Galan007

Also, the final pages implied that even with Vader's newfound powerup, he still realized that he wasn't capable of defeating Palpatine alone -- hence while he allowed the scourge to incorporate into his system immediately afterward:
https://ibb.co/j4JZfFy
https://ibb.co/DDpHG5t
"Now you see... You cannot defeat him alone... You need me."

Yeah, Palpatine is still stronger. He did state that Vader is stronger now, but he is still his master. And in the end of this issue, it states that Vader can't defeat Palpatine alone, so he needs the help of the droid plague
Originally posted by Sheev
Other thing to consider is how Sidious has dealt with the force wave in general compared to Vader. Vader is just now BARELY learning how to maintain control with the wild fluctuations in the force, and he seems pressed to do so. Meanwhile, Sidious doesn't seem like he's been affected at all by it due to his superior control.

Yeah, Palpatine is able to control the force wave due to he is stronger than Vader(and other force sensitives). So he neither suffered agony or was out of control of his power
https://ibb.co/nQZndfm
https://ibb.co/dLQ8tf0

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Weirdly enough, I feel this is actually a worse showing for Vader than when he confronted Palpatine much earlier in the run. Last time Palpatine was blasting lightning at Vader, Vader still managed to advance on him, pushing through the lightning and almost reaching him before Mas Amedda and the Red Guard stepped in to distract Vader. This time around, Vader was on his back foot the whole time Palpatine was blasting away at him. Sure, it's impressive that Vader was able to block the lightning with one hand and use the Force with the other, but nothing he did really depicted him pushing Palpatine. Instead, Vader just forced Palpatine to break off his focus on Vader to deal with the scourge. Of Vader's many confrontations with Palpatine since the 2020 comic runs started, this is one of the less impressive ones in my eyes.
I disagree. I don't feel this showing is necessarily worse. After all, in the last time, Vader seems just blocking Palpatine's lightning takes a toll in him. And Vader is completely helpless when gets TKed by Palpatine while he is doing a TK himself.

But in here, Vader is capable of blocking Palpatine's lightning while Tks a large area. Not saying this fight is necessarily better than the last one, just feel it's not necessarily a worse showing

Originally posted by Underachiever59
Weirdly enough, I feel this is actually a worse showing for Vader than when he confronted Palpatine much earlier in the run. Last time Palpatine was blasting lightning at Vader, Vader still managed to advance on him, pushing through the lightning and almost reaching him before Mas Amedda and the Red Guard stepped in to distract Vader. This time around, Vader was on his back foot the whole time Palpatine was blasting away at him. Sure, it's impressive that Vader was able to block the lightning with one hand and use the Force with the other, but nothing he did really depicted him pushing Palpatine. Instead, Vader just forced Palpatine to break off his focus on Vader to deal with the scourge. Of Vader's many confrontations with Palpatine since the 2020 comic runs started, this is one of the less impressive ones in my eyes.
Nah, Vader did far better this time. Last time in Darth Vader #5 the lightning broke through his defenses to his arms and body. He then gets distracted by the guards and Mas Amedda, and subsequently ragdolled by Palpatine. However this time, despite initially having his defenses broken and blasted against the wall, he is able to recover and directly overpower the lightning by moving it away from his arms and to his saber. Palpatine is unable to break through his defenses again, and unable to ragdoll him or incapacitate him in any way. Palpatine even attempted to distract him with a third party again, but to no avail. Instead of getting distracted and ragdolled like he did before, Vader was able to deal with the 3rd party and also defend himself against Palpatine no problem. Vader did much better this time.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I was thinking a broader definition of "stronger". I.E, he has advantage over Vader in a fight(whether it's derived from raw power or knowledge or mastery of his power)
Fair enough

Fair enough. Although the feigning weakness could be pretending he couldn't carry on firing, rather than firing with less power (hope that made sense).

ROTS Sidious's lightning also blew Yoda's saber out of his hands (and Yoda had a two handed grip). So this is definitely a notable feat for Vader considering ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious.

But like others have said, Sidious is still more powerful than Vader. They might be in the same ballpark, but Vader isn't beating Sidious solo.

Originally posted by Sheev
ROTS Sidious's lightning also blew Yoda's saber out of his hands (and Yoda had a two handed grip). So this is definitely a notable feat for Vader considering ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious.

But like others have said, Sidious is still more powerful than Vader. They might be in the same ballpark, but Vader isn't beating Sidious solo.
Yep

I've just read the whole issue and not just he panels posted here or on comicvine and tbh thinking that Vader and Palpatine are relative after this issue is reaching at extreme levels, to use an euphemism.

First of all, Palpatine isn't in the slightest worried about Vader, the comic vine thread posted the pic of Sid ordering Vader's ship to be destroyed, which is the only panel where he looks concerned, but tbh considering what happened before and after that panel I think it's more likely Palpy was more worried about Vader's ship carrying the droid scourge and heading to the centre of Coruscant, rather than Vader himself being there.

Anyway for the rest of the issue Vader did too little to assume they're in the same tier. He managed to block Sid's lighting one time, a feat master Tiplar also managed to achieve when she fought Dooku in SoD. Vader was then pushed against a wall, but then he is seen standing up again and blocking the lightning... it's not clear if Palp went easy on him, allowed him to get up (like he did after force pushing Maul and Savage against a wall) and then attacked him again, or if Vader stood up on his own, but tbh that's all Vader managed to do: blocking lightning and being on the defensive, which is something weak characters managed to do in canon more than once. What's worse is that Sid did all that while being extremely casual. We also have Sid stating he will always be stronger than vader and even the droid saying Vader is weaker so...

If Vader is a relative to Sidious after this fight then Master Tiplar is a relative to Dooku, the Grand Inquisitor is a relative to Vader, or literally any Jedi Vader fought is relative to him.

The only thing we can assume for sure is that Vader has become a bit stronger than before due to gaining better control over his hate, that's it

^ Finally, someone who is not a crazy, off his meds, delusional Vader fanboy.

Mighty brave of you

Huh, apparently analyzing the fight objectively makes you a delusional fanboy

Originally posted by Total Warrior
I've just read the whole issue and not just he panels posted here or on comicvine and tbh thinking that Vader and Palpatine are relative after this issue is reaching at extreme levels, to use an euphemism.

First of all, Palpatine isn't in the slightest worried about Vader, the comic vine thread posted the pic of Sid ordering Vader's ship to be destroyed, which is the only panel where he looks concerned, but tbh considering what happened before and after that panel I think it's more likely Palpy was more worried about Vader's ship carrying the droid scourge and heading to the centre of Coruscant, rather than Vader himself being there.

Anyway for the rest of the issue Vader did too little to assume they're in the same tier. He managed to block Sid's lighting one time, a feat master Tiplar also managed to achieve when she fought Dooku in SoD. Vader was then pushed against a wall, but then he is seen standing up again and blocking the lightning... it's not clear if Palp went easy on him, allowed him to get up (like he did after force pushing Maul and Savage against a wall) and then attacked him again, or if Vader stood up on his own, but tbh that's all Vader managed to do: blocking lightning and being on the defensive, which is something weak characters managed to do in canon more than once. What's worse is that Sid did all that while being extremely casual. We also have Sid stating he will always be stronger than vader and even the droid saying Vader is weaker so...

If Vader is a relative to Sidious after this fight then Master Tiplar is a relative to Dooku, the Grand Inquisitor is a relative to Vader, or literally any Jedi Vader fought is relative to him.

The only thing we can assume for sure is that Vader has become a bit stronger than before due to gaining better control over his hate, that's it
This has all been addressed and debunked on CV

Pretty sure the word "Objectively" is being misused.