Superman vs Cyclops

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Delta1938
Well I guess that comic he was. It's not like Superman doesn't have other showings that would at the least arguably put him above Batman in skill.

Bringing up the example isn't any different than you posting him getting hit by Carol. Unless we're to conclude he has superhuman durability?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He was what, though? I'm just pointing out that Carol and Scott faced off in a canon comic, with 616 character versions, at least.

Alt. Versions are.....iffy at best. As you say, am sure Superman has other feats with actual earth prime guys....
How about Superman's showing against Superboy Prime at the end of Infinite Crisis.
Not the fight with Prime any special, but the fact he can withstand the falling from a star to a planet when he was depowered(or powerless?) after flying through a red sun is something I think pretty insane when it comes to durability

qwertyuiop1998

And recently, when a villain stole Superman's powers, he can maneuver enough to tank that villain's punches without any permanent damage
That's the recent example I now can think of that similar to Carol's showing, there are probably more out there
https://ibb.co/J73GVvh
https://ibb.co/0CwHCqh
https://ibb.co/cL7fGwp
https://ibb.co/8P9MmWB
https://ibb.co/8z2b2dB
https://ibb.co/4dpNH93
https://ibb.co/LQyJ0XR
https://ibb.co/bdjC6Mr

Delta1938

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He was what, though? I'm just pointing out that Carol and Scott faced off in a canon comic, with 616 character versions, at least.

Alt. Versions are.....iffy at best. As you say, am sure Superman has other feats with actual earth prime guys....

But we're not talking all 3 being random alternate universe versions. One of them was Owlman.

As for other examples, the Kobra fight you mentioned, Kobra did beat Batman. He ended it with tech, but was winning the fight to begin with.

Two fights with Black Adam that he did fine against, one Adam was more powerful than Captain Marvel by writer intent. And Adam had it retconned to be skilled, as you know, powerless he beat Batman.

Does fine against Orion, an actual war god.

Fights Zod fine, when a powerless Zod beat Brainiac through pure skill. Yes, Brainiac starts losing his powers when he's outside his ship, but it took him weeks outside it to.....still be superhuman, and when out for I presume a similar amount of time against Zod, still had the strength advantage against Superboy and Krypto simultaneously.

Delta1938

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
How about Superman's showing against Superboy Prime at the end of Infinite Crisis.
Not the fight with Prime any special, but the fact he can withstand the falling from a star to a planet when he was depowered(or powerless?) after flying through a red sun is something I think pretty insane when it comes to durability

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And recently, when a villain stole Superman's powers, he can maneuver enough to tank that villain's punches without any permanent damage
That's the recent example I now can think of that similar to Carol's showing, there are probably more out there
https://ibb.co/J73GVvh
https://ibb.co/0CwHCqh
https://ibb.co/cL7fGwp
https://ibb.co/8P9MmWB
https://ibb.co/8z2b2dB
https://ibb.co/4dpNH93
https://ibb.co/LQyJ0XR
https://ibb.co/bdjC6Mr

Powerless he also took hits from Earth-Man(had the powers of the entire Legion line up, including Timber Wolf, Night Girl arguably, Blok, and arguably Ultra Boy's strength all stacked) and then re-entry heat unprotected.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
So Superman > Batman in skill?

Is that the conclusion we're to draw?
Must be 😏😏

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Delta1938
But we're not talking all 3 being random alternate universe versions. One of them was Owlman.

As for other examples, the Kobra fight you mentioned, Kobra did beat Batman. He ended it with tech, but was winning the fight to begin with.

Two fights with Black Adam that he did fine against, one Adam was more powerful than Captain Marvel by writer intent. And Adam had it retconned to be skilled, as you know, powerless he beat Batman.

Does fine against Orion, an actual war god.

Fights Zod fine, when a powerless Zod beat Brainiac through pure skill. Yes, Brainiac starts losing his powers when he's outside his ship, but it took him weeks outside it to.....still be superhuman, and when out for I presume a similar amount of time against Zod, still had the strength advantage against Superboy and Krypto simultaneously.

Yeah, I'm just saying if Carv (as an example) used someone beating Owlman as proof someone would beat Batman, we'd all crucify him, and rightly so.....

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And recently, when a villain stole Superman's powers, he can maneuver enough to tank that villain's punches without any permanent damage
That's the recent example I now can think of that similar to Carol's showing, there are probably more out there
https://ibb.co/J73GVvh
https://ibb.co/0CwHCqh
https://ibb.co/cL7fGwp
https://ibb.co/8P9MmWB
https://ibb.co/8z2b2dB
https://ibb.co/4dpNH93
https://ibb.co/LQyJ0XR
https://ibb.co/bdjC6Mr

He still had powers here. Not fully powered but still...

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
He still had powers here. Not fully powered but still...
The last time I checked, the DC official website states he was powerless there

https://www.dc.com/comics/action-comics-2016/action-comics-1058

carver9

You do know that makes Clark look pretty bad if true. He had full access to Clark abilities, including his strength and he was going all out. I think we need to stick with Clark having his powers. Especially since he was able to roll with the punches on a Supes that had Clark speed, strength, super hearing and heat vision. Im trying to help you.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that makes Clark look pretty bad if true. He had full access to Clark abilities, including his strength and he was going all out. I think we need to stick with Clark having his powers. Especially since he was able to roll with the punches on a Supes that had Clark speed, strength, super hearing and heat vision. Im trying to help you.
He has Superman's abilities, but not his skills(which the thread is asking about), as the comic depicts.
And the skill can make big differences.
As once Superman notes when fights Xa-Du(who casually beats WW around in her own comic), their powers may be evenly matched, but not skills
https://ibb.co/zZ8d22F
https://ibb.co/tXjdk1q
https://ibb.co/5vMBLwz
https://ibb.co/3Wd3RC3
https://ibb.co/z8p0qNd

Edit:
Also, remember Karate Kid redirects Mon-El to another solar system?
Originally posted by Astner
Martial arts in DC Comics has always been kind of bonkers. Karate Kid ****ed up a possessed Mon-El who's basically as powerful as a Kryptonian. This, again, without having any kind of superpowers whatsoever.

https://i.imgur.com/38hblXTm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/mkXNvJVm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/NCECM9fm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/KqmEol3m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/CxQbLBAm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/8amylvlm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/8Y5QQVQm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/yWwLnXGm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/B3DgK6Lm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/qP3bofTm.jpg

- Legion of Superheroes #111

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
He has Superman's abilities, but not his skills(which the thread is asking about), as the comic depicts.
And the skill can make big differences.
As once Superman notes when fights Xa-Du(who casually beats WW around in her own comic), their powers may be evenly matched, but not skills
https://ibb.co/zZ8d22F
https://ibb.co/tXjdk1q
https://ibb.co/5vMBLwz
https://ibb.co/3Wd3RC3
https://ibb.co/z8p0qNd

Edit:
Also, remember Karate Kid redirects Mon-El to another solar system?

Even of he's using 70% of Superman's power, it's still a terrible showing. A glancing blow should kill any human, period. Imagine someone with Hulk full power throwing around a human and it doing absolutely nothing physically to him. That shit would be embarrassing. He shouldn't even be able to dodge a blow from this version of Superman since his speed is human level. I don't care how much you try to twist this as a skill thing. Let's stick with Superman having some of his powers, please.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
Even of he's using 70% of Superman's power, it's still a terrible showing. A glancing blow should kill any human, period. Imagine someone with Hulk full power throwing around a human and it doing absolutely nothing physically to him. That shit would be embarrassing. He shouldn't even be able to dodge a blow from this version of Superman since his speed is human level. I don't care how much you try to twist this as a skill thing. Let's stick with Superman having some of his powers, please.
Doesn't this logic basically apply to basically all the "skilled" characters though?
Like just a page ago, Cyclops tanked Carol's blast without getting put down

Or these
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Typo - I meant the X factor that is skill.

Again, with another example, Karate Kid:

Skill is a separate 'stat' from power and speed:
https://i.postimg.cc/x1Z78WS3/2UEoBS6.jpg

Supergirl has power - but no skill (and has a hard time with Equus):
https://i.postimg.cc/KvZCHPNB/ef8w2qA.jpg

Yet KK casually takes him apart:
https://i.postimg.cc/nz4wdr93/HFDOULM.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SRm1H4Wk/NBZZc0T.jpg

Skill against Strength (so again, showing how DC splits skill as another stat):
https://i.postimg.cc/xTtBDXx7/RJGsRLI.jpg

Without looking, using pure skill, he redirects Mon-El to another solar system:
https://i.postimg.cc/gJFTq8jw/v3D0wrz.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/yNSGZv14/9BaMrCk.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fRypwM1b/gmEweyi.jpg

In short, Skill is just a magical stat that writers use. I use extreme examples, of course, but that is to highlight how simply looking at pretty pictures and attempting to force maths onto them is wrong - one needs to actually know comics, and to know how the storytelling medium works.

It even has a trope name: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower

With your Zoom example, which you use to showcase how WW is faster than PG, she is blatantly not as fast as Zoom - you can see what speed looks like (Zoom is so fast, he is'metro manning', as you so quaintly put it, into 4 people):
https://i.postimg.cc/mrGYmw3G/8xzbuvG.jpg

Were she comparable in speed, she too would be split into multiple people - her lasso would be split etc. But it isn't - so she is nowhere near as fast as him.

But she still caught him, thanks to skill. IOW, it is pretty useless as proof of her speed, because you cannot say how fast she was going.

Or in short, I feel you just basically choose to ignore skill examples I provided. Possibly you're trying to downplay Superman(he loses in skill department or he loses in superpowers department)

carver9

Also, an inexperienced Lor Zod not only blitz Superman (who saw him coming and thought he was Zod), he was able to ko him. Action Comics 996...

https://i.ibb.co/r6dXLQd/Screenshot-20240701-135352-Samsung-Internet.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Ht5r7Ng/Screenshot-20240701-135406-Samsung-Internet.jpg
upload images

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Doesn't this logic basically apply to basically all the "skilled" characters though?
Like just a page ago, Cyclops tanked Carol's blast without getting put down

Or these

I already argued with Dark about the Carol scans. 🤷🏿

He knows I don't think those scans are relevant or mean anything. He's used them against me before. Superman had his powers in the scans you posted, though.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
Also, an inexperienced Lor Zod not only blitz Superman (who saw him coming and thought he was Zod), he was able to ko him. Action Comics 996...

https://i.ibb.co/r6dXLQd/Screenshot-20240701-135352-Samsung-Internet.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Ht5r7Ng/Screenshot-20240701-135406-Samsung-Internet.jpg
upload images
Well, my edit seems pretty appropriate here, judging by you started using irrevelent scans(not even skill related, while the topic asked skills/both they're powerless
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Or in short, I feel you just basically choose to ignore skill examples I provided. Possibly you're trying to downplay Superman(he loses in skill department or he loses in superpowers department)

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
I already argued with Dark about the Carol scans. 🤷🏿

He knows I don't think those scans are relevant or mean anything. He's used them against me before. Superman had his powers in the scans you posted, though.
But I actually think they are.
Carol has superpowers in the scene DS posted. Mon-El has superpowers I posted etc.
I.E, the point about skills can compensate superpowers is a thing that can be proved in comics.
Your don't think they are kind of meaningless TBH, as you just provided your opinions, but not actual evidence

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
he was able to ko him. Action Comics 996...

https://i.ibb.co/r6dXLQd/Screenshot-20240701-135352-Samsung-Internet.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Ht5r7Ng/Screenshot-20240701-135406-Samsung-Internet.jpg
upload images
BTW, didn't the following comic immediately show Superman was conscious/not get koed as you claimed?
https://ibb.co/Dz7rgVf
https://ibb.co/PGfbLX9

DarkSaint85

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, my edit seems pretty appropriate here, judging by you started using irrevelent scans(not even skill related, while the topic asked skills/both they're powerless

You mentioned him not being as skilled or used to Superman powers which is the reason he couldn't ko a human. A kryptonian who isn't anywhere near as skill as Clark with his powers was able to do something a full fledge Superman clone couldn't do, against a human.

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
BTW, just remembered and searched(since Carver brought the Lor-Zod scene first)
Carver tried to claim exactly like he did in a few years ago, even though others had pointed out he was wrong at that scene

His eyes were still closed in the first page of the book. He just woke up, lol.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
You mentioned him not being as skilled or used to Superman powers which is the reason he couldn't ko a human. A kryptonian who isn't anywhere near as skill as Clark with his powers was able to do something a full fledge Superman clone couldn't do, against a human.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
BTW, didn't the following comic immediately show Superman was conscious/not get koed as you claimed?
https://ibb.co/Dz7rgVf
https://ibb.co/PGfbLX9

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
His eyes were still closed in the first page of the book. He just woke up, lol.
The others back in the day has explained to you.
Quote from Galan(who also provided similar example)
Originally posted by Galan007

End of issue cliffhangers like this are used ALL THE TIME in comics... They don't mean shit. srsly

carver9

Also, we don't know how long Konvict and Wonder Woman were fighting. It's obvious scenes happened before Superman woke up since we see Wonder Woman and Konvikt in a full on fight.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
Also, we don't know how long Konvict and Wonder Woman was fighting. It's obvious scenes happened before Superman woke up since we see Wonder Woman and Konvikt in a full on fight.
By this logic, I can also counter you as we don't know if Superman is truly unconscious or just dizzy for a while in both scenes. Since no noticeable time has passed in there

It also seems you forgot DS' question
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I won't say it did absolutely nothing to him, though. You obviously see Clark suffering. I mean, Daredevil has been punched by the Hulk before....
So is Hulk weak? As Daredevil also has been punched by Hulk before

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
By this logic, I can also counter you as we don't know if Superman is truly unconscious or just dizzy for a while in both scenes

It also seems you forgot DS' question

So is Hulk weak? As Daredevil also has been punched by Hulk before

I didn't see Dark comment.

I would say a flash ko.

The scenes are different. Both Supermana and Hulk hold back. This version of Superman was obviously trying to kill Clark and even mentioned taking out a city block once done. Hulk and Superman punch Batman and Daredevil obviously isn't trying to kill them but this wasn't Clark. This was a clone that wanted Superman gone, and the fight lasted pages and he still couldn't do it.

carver9

Remember, I'm not initially arguing Superman is weak. My entire argument here is that Superman had some of his powers and the Cyke and Superman showing is completely different. Your scans are unusable.

DarkSaint85

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by carver9
I didn't see Dark comment.

I would say a flash ko.

The scenes are different. Both Supermana and Hulk hold back. This version of Superman was obviously trying to kill Clark and even mentioned taking out a city block once done. Hulk and Superman punch Batman and Daredevil obviously isn't trying to kill them but this wasn't Clark. This was a clone that wanted Superman gone, and the fight lasted pages and he still couldn't do it.
Maybe, but again, like XJ pointed out before, you can't confirm it. As the following issue directly contradicts what you said about Lor-Zod koing Superman

As for your Clark is being too durable at that scene
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here is Daredevil, point blank, against Pyro:
https://i.imgur.com/eaqxMCx.png

KOd, but no burns (look at the area around his mouth).

Here is Nightwing being smashed through concrete walls by Donna Troy, no armour, and he's fine, still backflipping:
https://i.imgur.com/CYSCziD.jpg

Here is Nightwing with armour, taking a point blank punch from Osiris (empowered by Black Adam, remember):
https://i.imgur.com/ajaDhG8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GK0HFIi.jpg

I can do this all day.

I mean, here is Blue Beetle when he met Kingdom Come WW:

https://i.postimg.cc/C524bdLV/RCO012-1480926961.jpg

She grabs him by the throat and throws him at a boulder. He gets up, fine.

Superman does not exist in reality. Dan Jurgens does. I mean, what statements WOULD you accept? Booster said DD was faster than Flash - you never accepted that. Name a 'human' level character in comics, and I will try to find examples of them against 'heralds', or against damage.

I mean, here is frickin' PENGUIN being smashed through bathroom tiles, no blood, no injury:

https://i.gyazo.com/2012cc6c64def21d6b470a643f553f6d.png

My point being, 'humans' in comics survive things that no humans IRL can take. Them being damaged at all, in fact, shows extreme power.

Quite why this is all new to you after your entire reading history, is mysterious to me.

I mean, just a couple days ago you pointed out that in comics, the distance one is thrown means nothing to the damage suffered, right?

qwertyuiop1998

Also, remember the Infinite Crisis end scene I mentioned. Just checked out, yeah, all three of them are stripped out their powers there. Had not been the Mogo's intervene, they will die in the space as their powers are gone
https://ibb.co/TKWMscy
https://ibb.co/x2XDNbG
Yet, in Infinite Crisis, we saw this powerless Superman, survives an entry from the star to Mogo/the planet, and still keeps fighting
https://ibb.co/SsfYN32
https://ibb.co/zxhVcDs
https://ibb.co/9NYdS5Z
https://ibb.co/yf3w6XH
https://ibb.co/kmtJ4HP
https://ibb.co/1qnQN1d

DarkSaint85

Speaking of Batman, here he is unable - despite trying his best - to beat Kite Man down....

https://i.postimg.cc/BQBsXgfd/30c432c148bcb15e7c271dd4b2f8f9f7.jpg

Hell yeah.

carver9

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Maybe, but again, like XJ pointed out before, you can't confirm it. As the following issue directly contradicts what you said about Lor-Zod koing Superman

As for your Clark is being too durable at that scene

The next comic didn't contradict it. He was still on the ground sleep on the first page. He just woke up when Diana and Konvikt was fighting. Maybe it was the shockwaves from their punches that woke him up, who knows.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
The next comic didn't contradict it. He was still on the ground sleep on the first page. He just woke up when Diana and Konvikt was fighting. Maybe it was the shockwaves from their punches that woke him up, who knows.

So we can't confirm it either way. So we can't bring it up in the first place.

Good to know

Smurph

Originally posted by Delta1938
It happened. It's no more over the top than Cyclops getting punched a great distance THEN through buildings that DS posted. I didn't say it didn't happen. I didn't even say it was over the top. Originally posted by abhilegend
Must be 😏😏 Nice thumb up

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So we can't confirm it either way. So we can't bring it up in the first place.

Good to know

Or we can just go by what we see.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
Or we can just go by what we see.

Yes, which is Cyclops, unamped, being punched hard enough to fly through multiple buildings and is relatively unharmed.

Here, random humans survive in a black hole, and they're strong enough to hold onto WW with their arms against the black hole's pull:
https://i.postimg.cc/WFQfKgLh/CTzOAJq.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N9yzpbn3/e18ASe7.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/DWpNrRxQ/SKlrOCO.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/V0nHcvm4/wPmMlnL.jpg

Something that, if it happened in Marvel to heralds, everyone would be astounded over.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
I already argued with Dark about the Carol scans. 🤷🏿

He knows I don't think those scans are relevant or mean anything. He's used them against me before. Superman had his powers in the scans you posted, though.

You disagree with the scans?

Originally posted by carver9
Those scan most def put Scott in the super human range. That's not a bad showing for Carol, that's a beastly showing for Scott.

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, which is Cyclops, unamped, being punched hard enough to fly through multiple buildings and is relatively unharmed.

Here, random humans survive in a black hole, and they're strong enough to hold onto WW with their arms against the black hole's pull:
https://i.postimg.cc/WFQfKgLh/CTzOAJq.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/N9yzpbn3/e18ASe7.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/DWpNrRxQ/SKlrOCO.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/V0nHcvm4/wPmMlnL.jpg

Something that, if it happened in Marvel to heralds, everyone would be astounded over.

The Cyclops showing is a one off. You don't even believe he's that durable.

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You disagree with the scans?

Yes, lol. It's a Herald level durability showing, something Cyclops isn't. I can still praise it even though the writer is delusional.

DarkSaint85

Comic humans do things that no RL human can ever repeat. This isn't new.

You, Carver, simply twist and turn things when it suits you.

-Pr-

Originally posted by carver9
Both are powerless. Hand to hand only. Who's winning?

**** you.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by -Pr-
**** you.

Carver's next thread:

Hank Pym vs. Aquaman

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Actual CCTV footage of Pr:

https://i.postimg.cc/Tw3Psfgc/RCO033-1468917764.jpg

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Note how Batman isn't in those scenes thumb up

Speaking of Batman, here he is unable - despite trying his best - to beat Kite Man down....

https://i.postimg.cc/BQBsXgfd/30c432c148bcb15e7c271dd4b2f8f9f7.jpg

Hell yeah.

Is Kite Man getting his own animated series or I just got as high as ShadowFyre? laughing out loud

Delta1938

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, I'm just saying if Carv (as an example) used someone beating Owlman as proof someone would beat Batman, we'd all crucify him, and rightly so.....

The initial point of the feat though was for a powerless Superman vs powerless Cyclops, and yet it got brought to this...

Smurph

Originally posted by Delta1938
The initial point of the feat though was for a powerless Superman vs powerless Cyclops, and yet it got brought to this... Right.

And if the fight were powerless Superman vs powerless/gear-less Batman, we'd all agree that Superman dominates, yeah?

Smurph

Yes, agreed.

So Superman is definitely more skilled than Batman, right? 3 Batman is greater than 1 Batman, if my math is right.

qwertyuiop1998

I think Smurph was saying that although Superman's feat against the three alternate Batmen is impressive, but that doesn't necessarily mean Superman is more skilled than the Prime Batman
As alternate universe versions feats don't share the same feats as the main universe Superman

But I think the conclusion we can draw is Superman's skills > the three alternate Batmen(including Owlman)

Smurph

Not quite.

The feat is impressive because they're all alternate Batmen. Everybody keeps pointing to that as the very reason the feat is impressive. And one is even Owlman.

So surely that means Clark is definitively more skilled than Bruce. Seems like we should all agree on that. The alternate Bats might not feat share but they're still Bats.

DarkSaint85

Didn't Batman take out three alt. Supermen, one of whom was Ultraman, the other, Bizarro?

Even without magic, he was still out skilling them.

With KMC maths and transitive properties, he's more skilled than Superman, who is more skilled than Batman, who is more skilled than Superman.

qwertyuiop1998

Yeah, that's what will happen when we use alt universe characters share feats.
Even though they're all Superman/Batman, doesn't necessarily mean they're on the same levels

StiltmanFTW

eyurb9SVnGk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyurb9SVnGk

Looks like the best thing DC came up with in decades, tbh.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Is Kite Man getting his own animated series or I just got as high as ShadowFyre? laughing out loud

Sorry, yes he is!!! The trailer dropped a few days ago...

Smurph

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yeah, that's what will happen when we use alt universe characters share feats.
Even though they're all Superman/Batman, doesn't necessarily mean they're on the same levels Idk, a moment ago it seemed like everybody thought that beating the two featless Batmans was impressive on the basis that they're Batman.

Are we now saying that part of the feat wasn't all that impressive? Seems like we're either inferring their skill based on Bruce's, or we're not.

StiltmanFTW

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sorry, yes he is!!! The trailer dropped a few days ago...

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif

Hell yeah.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Smurph
Idk, a moment ago it seemed like everybody thought that beating the two featless Batmans was impressive on the basis that they're Batman.

Are we now saying that part of the feat wasn't all that impressive? Seems like we're either inferring their skill based on Bruce's, or we're not.
My opinions(like I said before) are we can draw the conclusion that Superman's skills > these three alternate universe Batmen.
So it should be based on these alt Batmen feats(someone like Owlman, for example) to say how impressive that feat is

These are my personal opinions, not sure about other posters here though

Smurph

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
My opinions(like I said before) are we can draw the conclusion that Superman's skills > these three alternate universe Batmen.
So it should be based on these alt Batmen feats(someone like Owlman, for example) to say how impressive that feat is

These are my personal opinions, not sure about other posters here though Cool, I think we're on the same page

Cyclops ftw

Juntai

Originally posted by Smurph
Idk, a moment ago it seemed like everybody thought that beating the two featless Batmans was impressive on the basis that they're Batman.

Are we now saying that part of the feat wasn't all that impressive? Seems like we're either inferring their skill based on Bruce's, or we're not. Owlman has his own feats, not so much on the others, but Owlman alone has fought Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes before they quit fighting before. I would say its mosdef impressive that Clark is able to fight him and two others at once.

As for the others, I would say its easy to infer -some- measure of skill, based on them being Bat-alternates, but not necessarily Prime Earth Batman equal.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Juntai
Owlman has his own feats, not so much on the others, but Owlman alone has fought Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes before they quit fighting before. I would say its mosdef impressive that Clark is able to fight him and two others at once.

As for the others, I would say its easy to infer -some- measure of skill, based on them being Bat-alternates, but not necessarily Prime Earth Batman equal.

Yeah, but in the same comic, Batman Prime was literally dancing around Bizarro (who has his feats) AND Ultraman (with his back turned to them, no less!), who also has his own feats....

https://i.postimg.cc/1XNDD5P7/RCO006-1663906763.jpg

So if we say Owlman is in the rough vicinity of Bruce, due to him stalemating Bruce for 15 minutes, then....are we saying Bruce is faster than Ultraman AND Bizarro, and hence, as those two have fought Superman plenty of times in the past, Batman can do the same to Clark?

I think it's telling that once the Justice Lord versions of Superman/Batman (who explicitly had the same histories and origins) appeared, they were winning against their Earth Prime counterparts, and they needed to castle....

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
Cool, I think we're on the same page

Cyclops ftw
Basis on?

Smurph

Originally posted by Smurph
I think Scott looked pretty good against Wolverine in Schism.

Yeah he had his blasts, but it was in a melee fight and offset the obvious claws/physical/hf advantage

Juntai

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, but in the same comic, Batman Prime was literally dancing around Bizarro (who has his feats) AND Ultraman (with his back turned to them, no less!), who also has his own feats....

https://i.postimg.cc/1XNDD5P7/RCO006-1663906763.jpg

So if we say Owlman is in the rough vicinity of Bruce, due to him stalemating Bruce for 15 minutes, then....are we saying Bruce is faster than Ultraman AND Bizarro, and hence, as those two have fought Superman plenty of times in the past, Batman can do the same to Clark?

I think it's telling that once the Justice Lord versions of Superman/Batman (who explicitly had the same histories and origins) appeared, they were winning against their Earth Prime counterparts, and they needed to castle.... Thats an alternate universe Bizarro, so no, prime Bizarros feats dont count for him. Thats why Incarnate showed up at the end to take them back to their respective universes.
He also explained in your scan he kept them occupied with talking to distract them while leaping around and then casted a spell and summoned the Justice Buster suit.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Basis on?

See my reference to Schism, among other things. I also think he's better at tactically fighting as a human, and I think that powerless Scott is physically > powerless Clark.

There's some guess work and hair splitting here because neither has a ton of feats that fit the thread and you could make a case either way. But my money on Scott. I think the fight against Wolverine was more impressive than this other stuff.

Smurph

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Juntai
Thats an alternate universe Bizarro, so no, prime Bizarros feats dont count for him. Thats why Incarnate showed up at the end to take them back to their respective universes.
He also explained in your scan he kept them occupied with talking to distract them while leaping around and then casted a spell and summoned the Justice Buster suit.

Right. He's still the Bizarro of Htrae, so has some feats.

So with his back turned to Earth-3 Ultraman, he casually backflips over Ultraman (who in the preceding page even tells the others not to hold back). Ultraman, who has his own feats.

So using the same logic with Owlman (which is the main point here), Batman Prime is faster than Ultraman, who is able to fight Superman. Thus, it shows Batman is able to take Ultraman by surprise (What the..), so he's on the level of Superman at least.

As we can infer *some* measure of speed from the alt.universe Supermen

Smurph

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, the toughest X-man: lol

BillionS of simulations totalling billionS of mutant deaths and in every simulation "there was always one X-Man left standing"

Ain't no way powerless Clark is gonna do what billions of Nimrods failed to jockey

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph

Re-read the fight, Cyclops doesn't even lands a punch on Wolverine the entire fight, it's all just optic blasts.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-4?id=62901
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-5?id=62902

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
See my reference to Schism, among other things. I also think he's better at tactically fighting as a human, and I think that powerless Scott is physically > powerless Clark.

How's powerless Cyclops physically stronger than powerless Superman?

Of course when you use circular reasoning to negate Superman's feats because it makes him more skilled than batman, sure.

"Superman's feat of beating Owlman doesn't counts so Cyclops is automatically more impressive".

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
Right. So the feat definitively puts Superman's skill above Bruce's. After all, Owlman alone can fight Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes, and Superman beat Owlman with two backup Bruces (for whom we infer -some- measure of skill).

And it didn't seem like it took Superman 15 minutes.
Thus by circular reasoning, Superman's feat becomes null and void. Classic kmc tactic of yore, "XYZ feat of Superman doesn't count because so and so, but yeah Silver Surfer creates kryptonite out of thin air to beat Superman because why not".

abhilegend

Anyway, an almost powerless Superman (who admits Aquaman was a hundred times stronger than him) can still bloody Arthur with a headbutt.

https://i.postimg.cc/BPX3pqmx/image.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/BjW35fHK/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/8s0N56Cw/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/xXK2tp3F/image.jpg

Let's see Cyclops bloodying someone 100 times stronger than him with a headbutt lol.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
How's powerless Cyclops physically stronger than powerless Superman? I think he's tougher.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course when you use circular reasoning to negate Superman's feats because it makes him more skilled than batman, sure.

"Superman's feat of beating Owlman doesn't counts so Cyclops is automatically more impressive". There's nothing circular about the reasoning. You said "Superman beat three alternate universe Batmen, so..." meaning: it's impressive because they're each Batman, and he beat three at once, therefore he obviously wins this.

And I said "cool so I guess we're now saying that Superman is now more skilled than Batman"

That's not circular. I responded to your argument. It's also not negating anything. Use the feat, argue that Superman is a better fighter than Batman. I've got no issue with that.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thus by circular reasoning, Superman's feat becomes null and void. Classic kmc tactic of yore, "XYZ feat of Superman doesn't count because so and so, but yeah Silver Surfer creates kryptonite out of thin air to beat Superman because why not". I didn't say it was null and void. I've literally just been parroting your argument back to you and now you're whining about... Silver Surfer?

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Re-read the fight, Cyclops doesn't even lands a punch on Wolverine the entire fight, it's all just optic blasts.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-4?id=62901
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-5?id=62902 Re-read issue 5. Those are punches and a tackle. And they're grappling through the whole fight.

The reluctance to go for the punch makes sense. Claws, after all.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anyway, an almost powerless Superman (who admits Aquaman was a hundred times stronger than him) can still bloody Arthur with a headbutt.

https://i.postimg.cc/BPX3pqmx/image.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/BjW35fHK/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/8s0N56Cw/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/xXK2tp3F/image.jpg

Let's see Cyclops bloodying someone 100 times stronger than him with a headbutt lol. Cyclops staggering Captain Marvel with an uppercut thumb up

DarkSaint85

Captain Marvel isn't as strong as 100 human males though. I'd say she's far stronger.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
I think he's tougher.

Basis on what exactly?

No, it's impressive on its own without bringing in Earth prime Batman.

That's a whole new sentence lol. Nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Batman, neither do you need to be as skilled as Batman to beat ****ing cyclops lol.

Yes, it's a circular reasoning to negate a feat.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
Re-read issue 5. Those are punches and a tackle. And they're grappling through the whole fight.

The reluctance to go for the punch makes sense. Claws, after all.
That's only after the Sentinel blasts Logan who's injured. Grappling isn't gonna help him here since Superman is both stronger and is more skilled in grappling than him. Originally posted by Smurph
Cyclops staggering Captain Marvel with an uppercut thumb up

Are you saying Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character? This just after your whole "more skilled than Batman" rhetoric? Lmao.

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Captain Marvel isn't as strong as 100 human males though. I'd say she's far stronger.
Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol.

I mean.....if the feat was Superman Vs Batman, and Superman won on skills then...sure.

But it's not.

At least Cyclops actually threw down with Cap.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Basis on what exactly? From an entire career of taking hits from sentinels. From mind-controlled Colossus. From bloodlusted Captain Marvel. Surviving a massive lightning strike from Storm. Nimrod running billions of scenarios and concluding that in every one he was the singularly toughest X-Man.

He's Marvel's child soldier.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's impressive on its own without bringing in Earth prime Batman. Beating Owlman is impressive because of his feats against Batman. Beating the other Batmen is impressive because.... their name is Batman.

You'll notice that I didn't frame the feat as being about Batman - you did:

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman beat three alternate Batmen while being depowered so...

And it makes sense because the feat is about Batman. Superman even starts the fight saying that Bruce has always wanted to know which of them would win an even fight.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's a whole new sentence lol. Nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Batman, neither do you need to be as skilled as Batman to beat ****ing cyclops lol. Ok so to be clear, you were saying "Superman beat three alternate Batmen while depowered" and you're now saying "but that doesn't mean he could actually beat Batman"?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it's a circular reasoning to negate a feat. You might notice that I never said the feat is "negated". As far as I can tell, the only people trying to negate feats are you and Carver.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol. Wait, so Superman is or isn't more skilled than Batman?

You just said that nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Bats, now you're acting like it's unfair that he can't be more skilled than Bats.

I don't care which it is, but you can't have it both ways.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's only after the Sentinel blasts Logan who's injured. Grappling isn't gonna help him here since Superman is both stronger and is more skilled in grappling than him. No, it's after the Sentinel grabs both of them and Scott escapes first. Then they continue their fight and punch each other. The entire time Scott is just fighting to prevent Wolverine from pushing the detonator he's holding.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Are you saying Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character? This just after your whole "more skilled than Batman" rhetoric? Lmao. You literally just made the same argument about powerless Superman vs Aquaman....???

Again, I never argued to negate a feat. You asked for a comparable feat from Cyclops and now you can't figure out how to respond.

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean.....if the feat was Superman Vs Batman, and Superman won on skills then...sure.

But it's not.

At least Cyclops actually threw down with Cap.
Threw down with cap meaning blasted him you mean?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
From an entire career of taking hits from sentinels. From mind-controlled Colossus. From bloodlusted Captain Marvel. Surviving a massive lightning strike from Storm.

Scans of such feats? The only time I know he was hit by storm, he ****ing died and had to be revived.

No, he was the last one standing. There's a difference.

Who ****ing cares?

His feat, not prime Earth batman.

A long ass paragraph and you "circle" back to "You really think Superman is more skilled than Batman, REALLY?" while touting Cyclops as the toughest X-man? I mean, do you have any idea how dumb you sound right now?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
No, it's after the Sentinel grabs both of them and Scott escapes first. Then they continue their fight and punch each other. The entire time Scott is just fighting to prevent Wolverine from pushing the detonator he's holding.

He literally never even punched Wolverine once? What are you even talking about here? The whole fight is just him blasting Logan.

Superman at least had some super strength there.

Lol, "you really think Superman is more skilled than Batman, REALLY"?

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
Wait, so Superman is or isn't more skilled than Batman?

You just said that nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Bats, now you're acting like it's unfair that he can't be more skilled than Bats.

I don't care which it is, but you can't have it both ways.
Superman is more skilled than Batman just like Cyclops is the toughest X-man.

Hope that helps.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by abhilegend
Threw down with cap meaning blasted him you mean?

Yup. He punched her, she punched him (through some buildings), she blasted him, he blasted her.

He still fought her. Batman didn't fight Superman in the feat you mentioned.

Nimrod still called Cyclops the toughest X-man. This isn't something that anyone on the board is making up.

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yup. He punched her, she punched him (through some buildings), she blasted him, he blasted her.

He still fought her. Batman didn't fight Superman in the feat you mentioned.

Nimrod still called Cyclops the toughest X-man. This isn't something that anyone on the board is making up.
Eh, powerless Superman fought and survived several hits from Earth Man with the power of entire Legion of superheroes. Easily trumps the stupidity of the Captain Marvel fight.

Nimrod calling Cyclops toughest X-man only to be smoked one page later by Storm is lulzworthy.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eh, powerless Superman fought and survived several hits from Earth Man with the power of entire Legion of superheroes. Easily trumps the stupidity of the Captain Marvel fight.

Nimrod calling Cyclops toughest X-man only to be smoked one page later by Storm is lulzworthy.

Surely that's even more stupid? Which I guess is if the metric you're using is 'stupidity', yes, that does indeed trump it lol.

What's the issue?

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Scans of such feats? The only time I know he was hit by storm, he ****ing died and had to be revived. Colossus: https://imgur.com/OgIUjLo

Yeah, he needed CPR after the Storm lightning bolt and then came to on the next page. But it was a massive hit.

And he had already somehow survived this ermm https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8647f21f6db4ebd6f4ef2db2f81be91c-lq

And then there's him shrugging off the blast from Blastaar and then the punch/bullrush from insane Namor. Steve Rogers/Namor annuals iirc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he was the last one standing. There's a difference. "You're the toughest of them, I'll give you that"

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who ****ing cares? Kinda seems like you do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
His feat, not prime Earth batman. This quote doesn't respond to anything I said.

Originally posted by abhilegend
A long ass paragraph and you "circle" back to "You really think Superman is more skilled than Batman, REALLY?" while touting Cyclops as the toughest X-man? I mean, do you have any idea how dumb you sound right now? This quote doesn't respond to anything I said.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
He literally never even punched Wolverine once? What are you even talking about here? The whole fight is just him blasting Logan. He and Wolverine trade punches shortly after the tackle. Just read the comic, slowly. Look at each panel.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman at least had some super strength there. You said " Let's see Cyclops bloodying someone 100 times stronger than him with a headbutt lol."

Then we point to the Captain Marvel punch and you cry "negate!"

If Superman's headbutt is only valid (in your opinion) because Superman had super strength, then why bring it up in this thread at all?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Lol, "you really think Superman is more skilled than Batman, REALLY"? I didn't say those words. This quote doesn't respond to anything that I said.

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman is more skilled than Batman lol cool thumb up

Originally posted by abhilegend
just like Cyclops is the toughest X-man. Now you've come around to the truth thumb up

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hope that helps. It does!

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
Colossus: https://imgur.com/OgIUjLo

Yeah, nothing compared to Earth Man hitting him several times with the combined power of entire Legion of Superheroes.

Dying isn't a feat.

Nothing shows Cyclops was hit by that bolt?

There's no shrugging off in either of those scenes.

Only to get smoked by Storm on the very next page lol

This is getting boring now.

abhilegend

Originally posted by Smurph
lol cool thumb up

Now you've come around to the truth thumb up

It does!
Why not? Cyclops is tougher than every X-men because Nimrod said so then Superman can be more skilled than Batman because he actually beat Owlman when Batman couldn't.

As you said yourself.

Originally posted by Smurph
Assuming it's all in the actual comic:

Feats > statements, usually.

Though as a general rule, feats with statements > feats or statements alone. The combined art and words give multiple ways to assess the feat. The better we can understand the feat, the more weight we can place in relying on it.

Statements alone are difficult, because it implies that something is theoretical or happened off panel. Either way, lots of ambiguity and little reliability.

... unless OP is asking about statements the writer makes outside of the comic, which do not in any way trump what happens in the comic.

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Surely that's even more stupid? Which I guess is if the metric you're using is 'stupidity', yes, that does indeed trump it lol.

What's the issue?
In what universe is Cyclops the toughest X-man? By what metric?

DarkSaint85

616, apparently.

Toughness is the metric. What is it you think I'm saying?

Juntai

So landing one punch that does nothing on Wolverine is better feat than beating 3 Batmen?

Smurph

Sure, JuntaiOriginally posted by abhilegend
Nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Batman lol so much for that

Smurph

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, nothing compared to Earth Man hitting him several times with the combined power of entire Legion of Superheroes.
What's the issue number?

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Smurph
What's the issue number?
Action Comics 862
https://ibb.co/8dK78Px
https://ibb.co/ykmwB4C
https://ibb.co/Q95DCkm
https://ibb.co/N2X8mJK

ODG

^ He's wearing his Legion ring there. Originally posted by Juntai
So landing one punch that does nothing on Wolverine is better feat than beating 3 Batmen? What is this referring to?

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
^ He's wearing his Legion ring there. What is this referring to?
Doesn't the only information about the ring for providing protections are the vaccum of space and heat
I mean, just in the same scene, Earth Man one-shots Colossal Boy(who also has the Legion ring)
https://ibb.co/SwVGcMk
https://ibb.co/jhSnhPL
https://ibb.co/8dK78Px

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Doesn't the only information about the ring for providing protections are the vaccum of space and heat Not sure why you're asking me. I'd honestly expected you to know more about them than I do. But they've always struck me as providing some vague amps like Nth metal. Makes sense since they're derived from an alloy of Nth metal. I've seen them be used for forcefields, user-specific abilities, etc. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I mean, just in the same scene, Earth Man one-shots Colossal Boy(who also has the Legion ring)
https://ibb.co/SwVGcMk
https://ibb.co/jhSnhPL
https://ibb.co/8dK78Px Frankly, that reinforces the Legion ring providing protection since Colossal Boy wasn't in giant-sized form when he got suckerpunched and didn't get his head splattered by a giant-sized Earthman.

I don't really recall Superman fighting anybody else other than some security guard goons but it sure seems like it's helping him here earlier in the same storyline:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Legion_Ring01_5s5T5NCXwu12V712osD7h4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Legion_Ring02.jpg

Granted, any notion that Superman was completely powerless in that scene is a misdirect from the issue at hand in this thread: fighting while powerless. Superman had powers via the Legion ring during that storyline. And how he fights against random security guard goons is comparatively worse than when an irrefutably powerless Scott dismantles prison thugs:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Scott_Summers01.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Scott_Summers02.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Scott_Summers03.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Scott_Summers04.jpg

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG

I don't really recall Superman fighting anybody else other than some security guard goons but it sure seems like it's helping him here earlier in the same storyline:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Legion_Ring01_5s5T5NCXwu12V712osD7h4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Legion_Ring02.jpg

Don't these scans prove that the ring didn't really provide any impact protections or something?
As the scans show even when Superman wears the ring, he still gets bled by the two guards' sticks
Originally posted by ODG
Not sure why you're asking me. I'd honestly expected you to know more about them than I do. But they've always struck me as providing some vague amps like Nth metal.
Yeah, so like you said, at best you can only say that it *may* provide some vague amp.
But what we can confirm is when Superman fights Earth Man in that scene, the comic never specifically attributes the ring provides any protection from Earth Man's punches.
I mean, just in the same comic arc, in the scans you posted, Superman was hurt by two random guards while wearing the ring

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Don't these scans prove that the ring didn't really provide any impact protections or something?
As the scans show even when Superman wears the ring, he still gets bled by the two guards' sticks

Yeah, so like you said, at best you can only say that it *may* provide some vague amp.
But what we can confirm is when Superman fights Earth Man in that scene, the comic never specifically attributes the ring provides any protection from Earth Man's punches.
I mean, just in the same comic arc, in the scans you posted, Superman was hurt by two random guards while wearing the ring Then Earthman punches like a girl? Probably why he didn't splatter a normal-sized Colossal Boy even with a giant-sized suckerpunch. But you can't have it both ways. Giving Superman all credit but Colossal Boy no credit.

And still besides the point of who's winning a H2H powerless fight here. It's Clark Kent vs Scott Summers in H2H both powerless. Superman has been completely depowered many times. Find a better example that doesn't involve plot device equipment like Legion rings.

And if you can't, then compare how Superman did against security guard goons and how Scott did against prisoner goons.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
Then Earthman punches like a girl? Probably why he didn't splatter a normal-sized Colossal Boy even with a giant-sized suckerpunch. But you can't have it both ways. Giving Superman all credit but Colossal Boy no credit.

And still besides the point of who's winning a H2H powerless fight here. It's Clark Kent vs Scott Summers in H2H both powerless. Superman has been completely depowered many times. Find a better example that doesn't involve plot device equipment like Legion rings.

And if you can't, then compare how Superman did against security guard goons and how Scott did against prisoner goons.
Or Superman has dynamic strength and Colossal Boy just that tough. You're mistaking the point I'm replying here
I mean, you're the one who first brought up the Legion ring part(without any explicit proofs for it providing Superman protection from Earth Man's punch), and then posted scans that actually contradict what point you seemed was trying to make(I.E, it provides some protections to Superman when Earth Man punched him)

As for the other part, it's red-herring/not my point. I don't even give my opinions about who will win this fight even now. The point I'm replying is about the Legion ring

Smurph

Yeah, Qwerty was just being helpful by giving me the cite and the scans.

It was Abhi who's been arguing that Superman wins on the basis of this scene and, uh, "beating 3 Batmen"

ODG

^ They'll set each other straight with inner monologue, I'm sure. thumb up

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or Superman has dynamic strength You've just completely contradicted any notion that Superman was powerless when fighting Earthman. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I don't even give my opinions about who will win this fight even now. Totally not predictable given how fuller context has been provided now. thumb up

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
^ They'll set each other straight with inner monologue, I'm sure. thumb up

You've just completely contradicted any notion that Superman was powerless when fighting Earthman. Totally not predictable given how fuller context has been provided now. thumb up

Or Superman's dynamic strength also can work with skills/Superman just can ramp anything he needs to in order to accomplish something(including skills).
You can do all the mental gymnastics here. But the things we can confirm are
1)Superman did tank Earth Man's several hits
2)You really can't prove that the Legion ring has somehow factors in that scene(in terms of protection).

As for context. I mean, does it ever occur to you maybe I just know more Superman stuff than Cyclops' so I can provide more Superman related scans/scenes? It also makes me hold my judgments about the winner in this thread

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or Superman's dynamic strength also can work with skills/Superman just can ramp anything he needs to in order to accomplish something(including skills). So this notion of "dynamic strength" -- which is completely pointless in this H2H thread w/ no powers -- is now being twisted into "dynamic skillz"? Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
You can do all the mental gymnastics here. Your projection is painful. All I'm really seeing is you twisting yourself so much over such simple context that you present as an illogical sh1t-pretzel. "Dynamic skillz"??? Shades of Wolverithmetics, lol. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But the things we can confirm are
1)Superman did tank Earth Man's several hits
2)You really can't prove that the Legion ring has somehow factors in that scene(in terms of protection). And the context I added was
1) While on-panel wearing a Legion ring... but somehow actually because of his off-panel "dynamic strength" while depowered according to you.
2) Despite pointing out how Colossal Boy wasn't splattered either by a giantsized suckerpunch, or how Superman thoomed those security guard goons into a wall instead of using his "dynamic skillz" or listing all the array of stuff that Legion rings have done. Sure. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for context. I mean, does it ever occur to you maybe I just know more Superman stuff than Cyclops' so I can provide more Superman related scans/scenes? It also makes me hold my judgments about the winner in this thread I'd ask that when you so graciously provide Superman scans/scenes, you offer fuller context and not withhold fuller circumstances.

But go ahead and keep withholding your judgment though. I'll not keep begging the exact question this thread entails. Not from you anyway. After all, we're forced to struggle with your notions of Superman's "dynamic strength" while depowered??? which somehow leads to "dynamic skillz", lol.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
So this notion of "dynamic strength" -- which is completely pointless in this H2H thread w/ no powers -- is now being twisted into "dynamic skillz"? Your projection is painful. All I'm really seeing is you twisting yourself so much over such simple context that you present as an illogical sh1t-pretzel. "Dynamic skillz"??? Shades of Wolverithmetics, lol. And the context I added was
1) While on-panel wearing a Legion ring... but somehow actually because of his off-panel "dynamic strength" while depowered according to you.
2) Despite pointing out how Colossal Boy wasn't splattered either by a giantsized suckerpunch, or how Superman thoomed those security guard goons into a wall instead of using his "dynamic skillz" or listing all the array of stuff that Legion rings have done. Sure. I'd ask that when you so graciously provide Superman scans/scenes, you offer fuller context and not withhold fuller circumstances.

But go ahead and keep withholding your judgment though. I'll not keep begging the exact question this thread entails. Not from you anyway. After all, we're forced to struggle with your notions of Superman's "dynamic strength" while depowered??? which somehow leads to "dynamic skillz", lol.
Yeah, so all this post, doesn't really provide any concrete evidence for the ring actually protecting him in that scene, and one scene is showing the ring seems not providing protection on panel.

It seems you're moving the goalpost, the point is about the Legion ring(as you initially replied to me).
The dynamic strength/skill part is just like I said, it's thin as your " *maybe* Earth Man was just that weak". or "the ring protects Superman in these punches despite no actual proofs". It's a baseless assumption, so I can counter you with baseless assumptions

IOW, I'm still waiting the on panel proofs that prove that the ring protects Superman from Earth Man's punches.

Smurph

I'm also not really sure it's true that Superman "tanked" those hits.

He took them, but Earth Man was relishing the beat down. He got a punch in, but only so Earth Man could use Ultra Boy's invulnerability against him and make him hurt his fist.

In the next issue Earth Man breaks the ring, tells Superman it's time to splatter on the sidewalk, and drops him.

Was Earth Man powerful? Yes. Was he toying with Superman the whole time? Also yes.

Pretty different from Scott taking a beatdown from Carol while she's enraged by chaos magic and hitting hard enough to send him flying through four houses.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm also not really sure it's true that Superman "tanked" those hits.

He took them, but Earth Man was relishing the beat down. He got a punch in, but only so Earth Man could use Ultra Boy's invulnerability against him and make him hurt his fist.

In the next issue Earth Man breaks the ring, tells Superman it's time to splatter on the sidewalk, and drops him.

Was Earth Man powerful? Yes. Was he toying with Superman the whole time? Also yes.

Pretty different from Scott taking a beatdown from Carol while she's enraged by chaos magic and hitting hard enough to send him flying through four houses.
Could be
But I also don't think the ring protect him in this beating. As the comic never explictly states and in the previous issue Superman actually seems quite vulneralbe(hurt by two guards)

Again, I just brought up the scene, and the point I'm trying to make is that I don't feel it can confirm the ring factors in that battle in terms of protection

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yeah, so all this post, doesn't really provide any concrete evidence for the ring actually protecting him in that scene, and one scene is showing the ring seems not providing protection on panel. Other than protecting him from the vacuum of space and the heat of re-entry and granting him flight, etc. In which case, Earthman punches like a girl. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
It seems you're moving the goalpost, the point is about the Legion ring(as you initially replied to me). I think I've been very straight-forward. You have, however, continued to prevaricate and contradict yourself.

You brought up Colossal Boy as an excuse. But gave him no credit for not getting splattered by a giant-sized Earthman suckerpunch while simultaneously giving Superman full credit for getting smacked around. Ergo, Earthman punches like a girl equally.

Then you made an excuse about Superman's off-panel "dynamic strength" to avoid the obvious consequence of comparing Colossal Boy and Superman. Which then negates any notion that a human Clark Kent could tank Earthman's punches in the first place.

You then brought up Superman's off-panel "dynamic skillz". Which... I suppose was a pivot back towards being on-topic in this thread but honestly makes no sense.

Provide fuller context or don't. Get on-topic or don't. Not asking anything else of you, pal.

ODG

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm also not really sure it's true that Superman "tanked" those hits.

He took them, but Earth Man was relishing the beat down. He got a punch in, but only so Earth Man could use Ultra Boy's invulnerability against him and make him hurt his fist.

In the next issue Earth Man breaks the ring, tells Superman it's time to splatter on the sidewalk, and drops him.

Was Earth Man powerful? Yes. Was he toying with Superman the whole time? Also yes.

Pretty different from Scott taking a beatdown from Carol while she's enraged by chaos magic and hitting hard enough to send him flying through four houses. You just don't understand Smurph!

"Something, something, dynamic strength, something, something, dynamic skillz..." Stop being such a Superman hater, plz.

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
Other than protecting him from the vacuum of space and the heat of re-entry and granting him flight, etc. In which case, Earthman punches like a girl. I think I've been very straight-forward. You have, however, continued to prevaricate and contradict yourself.

You brought up Colossal Boy as an excuse. But gave him no credit for not getting splattered by a giant-sized Earthman suckerpunch while simultaneously giving Superman full credit for getting smacked around. Ergo, Earthman punches like a girl equally.

Then you made an excuse about Superman's off-panel "dynamic strength" to avoid the obvious consequence of comparing Colossal Boy and Superman. Which then negates any notion that a human Clark Kent could tank Earthman's punches in the first place.

You then brought up Superman's off-panel "dynamic skillz". Which... I suppose was a pivot back towards being on-topic in this thread but honestly makes no sense.

Provide fuller context or don't. Get on-topic or don't. Not asking anything else of you, pal.
And you provided two scans that show the ring didn't seem to protect Superman
Thanks a lot thumb up

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And you provided two scans that show the ring didn't seem to protect Superman
Thanks a lot Which means Earthman punches like a girl. I suppose with even less force than a security guard's baton even.

I'm perfectly ok with that conclusion. thumb up

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
Which means Earthman punches like a girl. I suppose with even less force than a security guard's baton even.

I'm perfectly ok with that conclusion. thumb up

Or just means Superman can somehow ramp up his skills? In which case, the initial post you replied to me seems can't prove(at least, the point you suggested), right?
Originally posted by ODG
^ He's wearing his Legion ring there.

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or just means Superman can somehow ramp up his skills? Oi vey. Exactly how does randomly invoking the absurd notion of Superman's "dynamic skillz" meant to remedy the giant gaping holes you've left yourself with how much you've twisted yourself up over simple context?

Whatever Superman blanky helps you sleep at night to justify avoiding how amateurish a depowered Superman w/ Legion flight ring looked against simple security goons. And that couldn't have been exactly why I posted those scans, after all.

Do you still not feel the strings upon which I tug?

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
Oi vey. Exactly how does randomly invoking the absurd notion of Superman's "dynamic skillz" meant to remedy the giant gaping holes you've left yourself with how much you've twisted yourself up over simple context?

Whatever Superman blanky helps you sleep at night to avoid justifying how amateurish a depowered Superman w/ Legion flight ring looked against simple security goons. And that couldn't have been exactly why I posted those scans, after all.

Do you still not feel the strings upon which I tug?
The context is I'm simply not agreeing with your initial point. Which I feel you can't prove(and as far as the discussion goes, it seems you indeed can't confirm it)
If you want context, I mean I just agreed on Smurph that Earth Man could be toying with Superman

Maybe stop projecting some of your opinions to others?

DarkSaint85

I don't even know what dynamic skills are. Does Superman suddenly know how to bake the perfect cake if the occasion calls for it? He can suddenly twerk like Philly's nastiest stripper, Sha'dynasty, if Bruce needs him to?

ODG

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The context is I'm simply not agreeing with your initial point. Which I feel you can't prove(and as far as the discussion goes, it seems you indeed can't confirm it) Which is fine. While I've already listed a whole bunch of things these plot device Legion rings have been on-panel capable of doing... within the context of this particular story? Yeah, Superman got bonked on the head by a security guard goon.

Which means Earthman punches like a girl. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
If you want context, I mean I just agreed on Smurph that Earth Man could be toying with Superman Don't conflate your intentions with Smurph's. You simply could've agreed with me fromt he get-go that Earthman punches like a girl when I first brought it up. But, no. You went on to sh1t up this entire page by making excuses with Colossal Boy, "dynamic strength" and "dynamic skillz".

That embarrassment was of your own doing, pal.

ODG

. . . . .

But seriously, don't give him anymore bright ideas. sneer

Kinda need to kill this stupid notion in the crib, as it were. crackers

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't even know what dynamic skills are. Does Superman suddenly know how to bake the perfect cake if the occasion calls for it? He can suddenly twerk like Philly's nastiest stripper, Sha'dynasty, if Bruce needs him to?
In my opinions, I think it's like many characters that seem to vary skills in some degrees
For example, Black Adam's skills seem vary in his fights against Batman and against Deathstroke(Dark Crisis)

And even Batman's fights with Deathstroke seem very in skills throughout their many fights

carver9

Dynamic skills, lmmfao

DarkSaint85

Clark...you alone have the heart, the strength, to do what is needed. For those we love, for the entire Multiverse...

Bruce....I.....I don't know if I can. It's too much....

You CAN, Clark, goddammit! Dick is gone, we have no-one else, now go out there and shake that ass until the Antimonitor throws some hundreds in the sky and makes it rain!!!!! You KNOW how to **** drop, I know you can!!!

.... For those we love, Bruce.....

*Rack City begins playing*

abhilegend

As usual Dumbo comes in and vomits all over the thread with his bullshit.

abhilegend

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Clark...you alone have the heart, the strength, to do what is needed. For those we love, for the entire Multiverse...

Bruce....I.....I don't know if I can. It's too much....

You CAN, Clark, goddammit! Dick is gone, we have no-one else, now go out there and shake that ass until the Antimonitor throws some hundreds in the sky and makes it rain!!!!! You KNOW how to **** drop, I know you can!!!

.... For those we love, Bruce.....

*Rack City begins playing*
Anyway, here's how Superman completely manhandles a "more skilled than Batman" Black Adam.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman just manhandles Black Adam like he was a child lol.
https://i.postimg.cc/LYgzP8Vh/15.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/wRKDQYW2/16.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/5QwLPKTV/17.jpg

😉😉

ODG

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Clark...you alone have the heart, the strength, to do what is needed. For those we love, for the entire Multiverse...

Bruce....I.....I don't know if I can. It's too much....

You CAN, Clark, goddammit! Dick is gone, we have no-one else, now go out there and shake that ass until the Antimonitor throws some hundreds in the sky and makes it rain!!!!! You KNOW how to **** drop, I know you can!!!

.... For those we love, Bruce.....

*Rack City begins playing* https://64.media.tumblr.com/daf7b470c3110c4b0b3e39cf5b7c31e0/ddd0756730f8b748-81/s400x600/05a01dff7fda287c43ca69f3df7104b8c8f77535.gif Originally posted by carver9
Dynamic skills, lmmfao Please don't blame me for this, srsly.

No matter how clever I think I am, no way I could've manipulated qwertyuiop1998 into coming up with that laffer.

Superman vs Cyclops - twist