Juggernaut (Deadpool II) vs Abomination (MCU)

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
Abom couldn't break a steel chain. He couldn't come close to achieving the feat Juggs did, even after hundreds of strikes.

It took Thor many hits WITH MJOLNIR (not his fists) to break the bridge. It would have either taken Thor a lot longer with his fists (since you are sickly comparing him to Abom and Juggs) or it would have been impossible for him to do with his fists.

Do you believe Thor, with Mjolnir, can break that bridge Juggs broke in one shot? If so then provide proof.

This may be your all time dumbest post. Do you seriously not think Abomination could bust a concrete bridge with a signle punch? Yet you say it would take hundreds? Good lord your dense. Why is that bridge feat so amazing to you? Its merely concrete.

What does Thor busting the rainbow bridge have to do with anything here? The rainbow bridge and that simple concrete bridge have nothing in common at all.

Also, good lord yes I believe Thor could destroy a simple concrete bridge like that. Why is that even in question. Its not that impressive. All things considered, Juggs had his hands full with Colossus for cripes sake.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Abom couldn't break a steel chain.

After Hulk had already battered him. Stabbed him multiple times with his own spikes.

tkitna

Originally posted by Darth Thor
After Hulk had already battered him. Stabbed him multiple times with his own spikes.

And being choked out

Darth Thor

Originally posted by tkitna
And being choked out

thumb up

carthage

Cain caves his skull in

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
After Hulk had already battered him. Stabbed him multiple times with his own spikes.

That doesn't decrease your strength. In most cases it will increase it. Adrenaline rush to survive.

Someone stabbed me and then started choking me with a laffy taffy then I'll still easily be able to break the laffy taffy.

Originally posted by tkitna
This may be your all time dumbest post. Do you seriously not think Abomination could bust a concrete bridge with a signle punch? Yet you say it would take hundreds? Good lord your dense. Why is that bridge feat so amazing to you? Its merely concrete.

What does Thor busting the rainbow bridge have to do with anything here? The rainbow bridge and that simple concrete bridge have nothing in common at all.

Also, good lord yes I believe Thor could destroy a simple concrete bridge like that. Why is that even in question. Its not that impressive. All things considered, Juggs had his hands full with Colossus for cripes sake.

Did you see the feat?
If you did then you wouldn't be talking about simple concrete busting lmao.
Do you know how much concrete that was?
Do you know that concrete in a bridge is reinforced with steel?
Do you know that Juggs punched through the steel floor of the vehicle first?

I don't see Thor or Abom doing that with their fists.

You wanna use perception or science?
Abom was nowhere perceived to be that strong in the movie. He was tossing cars around short distances, etc. I would say Abom is about class 40-80. Juggs about class 100. Perception wise, no math

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
That doesn't decrease your strength. In most cases it will increase it. Adrenaline rush to survive.

Someone stabbed me and then started choking me with a laffy taffy then I'll still easily be able to break the laffy taffy.

Try bench pressing after you've been stabbed. See what % of your max you're doing.

The whole point of battering and/or suffocating and/or submitting someone is so they have nothing left in the tank to pose a threat anymore.

So quit being ridiculous.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8

Did you see the feat?
If you did then you wouldn't be talking about simple concrete busting lmao.
Do you know how much concrete that was?
Do you know that concrete in a bridge is reinforced with steel?
Do you know that Juggs punched through the steel floor of the vehicle first?

I don't see Thor or Abom doing that with their fists.

You wanna use perception or science?
Abom was nowhere perceived to be that strong in the movie. He was tossing cars around short distances, etc. I would say Abom is about class 40-80. Juggs about class 100. Perception wise, no math

Lol. Yes i've seen it. Juggernaut punched through a van and hit a concrete bridge that shattered due to a ripple affect. Juggernaut has hands that are probably 3 to 4 times bigger than Thors so the effects of the punches would be different, but good lord, are you really suggesting that Thor doesn't have the strength and capability to punch through concrete bridges? The guy who is on par with the Hulk physically? Do you realize how insane you sound right now?

I can esily see Abomination replicating the same feat with the size of his fists That feat is just not that impressive. Hell, She Hulk punched a parking garage floor and caused a 50 foot or better fault in it.

Class 100? Why? His best strength feat was swinging a school bus at Colossus and that took a lot of effort for him to do so. He struggled with Colossus who struggled with Angel Dust. Can you honestly see Thor, Hulk, or Abomination struggling with Angel Dust? They would casually toss her aside.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Try bench pressing after you've been stabbed. See what % of your max you're doing.

The whole point of battering and/or suffocating and/or submitting someone is so they have nothing left in the tank to pose a threat anymore.

So quit being ridiculous.

Chains should be tissue paper to a class 100 being. I can easily rip tissue paper after being stabbed.

Plus shit like concrete and steel was knocking Hulk out and hurting him badly.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
you're scaling Abomination to later versions of Hulk (which doesn't work)

Really wasn't that much later. TIH happens at around the same time as Thor 2, which is right after Iron Man 2.

You're also just assuming Hulk became massively stronger based solely on feats happening later, which is ludicrous logic.

Also we see Smart Hulk punch Abom a few times in the She-Hulk finale without any noticeable effect. If he's as weak as you're making out, it should be an easy 1 punch KO.

Originally posted by h1a8
Chains should be tissue paper to a class 100 being. I can easily rip tissue paper after being stabbed.

Doesn't really work like that in comic book movies (or even in comics).

Originally posted by h1a8
Plus shit like concrete and steel was knocking Hulk out and hurting him badly.

He was never KO'd. And only came close to being KO'd when going up against Abom's strength.

tkitna

*sigh* I just can't deal with this kind of stupidity right now.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Really wasn't that much later. TIH happens at around the same time as Thor 2, which is right after Iron Man 2.

You're also just assuming Hulk became massively stronger based solely on feats happening later, which is ludicrous logic.

Also we see Smart Hulk punch Abom a few times in the She-Hulk finale without any noticeable effect. If he's as weak as you're making out, it should be an easy 1 punch KO.

Doesn't really work like that in comic book movies (or even in comics).

He was never KO'd. And only came close to being KO'd when going up against Abom's strength.

What you don't understand is that the level at which both characters operated in the movie was significantly below 100 tons. Steel and concrete were able to hurt them. Abomination threw a car with extreme effort, and it traveled only a few hundred feet. He also kicked Hulk a few hundred feet. Nothing he did was above 50 tons of force.

Hulk used car parts as weapons, which should be like tissue paper to a class 100 being. This is overwhelming proof of their levels in the movie.

Lastly, this concept works better in comics. There are plenty of examples where characters appear to get stronger or remain the same in strength after being stabbed, with no examples showing their strength diminishing by a large margin.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
*sigh* I just can't deal with this kind of stupidity right now.

Typo. I meant to say he can't collapse a bridge. He couldn't even break a chain. He can obviously damage a bridge to some degree though.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
What you don't understand is that the level at which both characters operated in the movie was significantly below 100 tons.

No what you don't understand is different directors in the early days of the MCU depicted the Hulk differently, but it's the same damn character Jeez. Quit being purposefully ignorant.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nothing he did was above 50 tons of force.

That doesn't matter.

Either prove (or at the very least give a logical explanation for) some sort of 100X amp in Universe or quit the BS.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No what you don't understand is different directors in the early days of the MCU depicted the Hulk differently, but it's the same damn character Jeez. Quit being purposefully ignorant.

That doesn't matter.

Either prove (or at the very least give a logical explanation for) some sort of 100X amp in Universe or quit the BS.

I don't have to. You do.
A character can be significantly weaker in an earlier movie without explanation.

If a character fails to lift 50 tons using all their might in movie A and succeeds lifting it in movie B then they are stronger in movie B. No explanation is needed.

Characters don't get other characters feats.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
Characters don't get other characters feats.

They do if it's the same freaking character. Do you realize how dumb you sound?

Your logic is that a 100 ton character isn't a 100 ton character in a movie that doesn't have a story or plot line that requires 100 ton feats. So stupid.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
They do if it's the same freaking character. Do you realize how dumb you sound?

Your logic is that a 100 ton character isn't a 100 ton character in a movie that doesn't have a story or plot line that requires 100 ton feats. So stupid.

Abom doesnt get Hulk feats.

Strength can be measured when someone is using extreme effort. From lifting to striking to throwing, etc.
None of Aboms feats are above 50 tons.

ShadowFyre

I thought it was stated that a bom was supposed to be superior due to him also being a super soldier. And I think it would be a good fight, I don't think anyone's getting stomped.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Again Abom doesnt get Hulk's feats.
If Hulk punched Abom with 20 tons of force then Abom has a 20 ton punch resistance feat.

Lastly, in terms of Hulk (not Abom):.
If a character attempted to lift 50 tons throughout an entire movie but failed but was able to do so in a later movie then that character is stronger in the latter movie. A reason doesn't have to be given to validate it.

Wth are you talking about?

We're not GIVING Abom Hulk's feats. We're Power Scaling Abom by seeing how he stacked up against the Hulk.

Given Abom almost KO'd Hulk at one point and gave him hell, we can deduce how the approximate level of strength he is at given what Hulk can do.

Neither Hulk or Abom failed to lift anything. Just the chains after Abom was battered.

And yeah keep ignoring Abom taking multiple punches from Smart Hulk with little visible effect/damage.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Wth are you talking about?

We're not GIVING Abom Hulk's feats. We're Power Scaling Abom by seeing how he stacked up against the Hulk.

Given Abom almost KO'd Hulk at one point and gave him hell, we can deduce how the approximate level of strength he is at given what Hulk can do.

Neither Hulk or Abom failed to lift anything. Just the chains after Abom was battered.

And yeah keep ignoring Abom taking multiple punches from Smart Hulk with little visible effect/damage.
Lifting isn't the only way to measure strength.
If doing something with extreme effort can be calculated to utilize A tons of force then that's equivalent to failing to apply A+1 tons of force with extreme effort.

Here is one example:
Distance cars were thrown.

If Smart Hulk's strength range from 20 tons to whatever tons (due to fiction inconsistency) then a being hit by him means they endured 20 to whatever tons of force.

I always use a character's average strength when using ABC logic.
For example, if Smart Hulk's average strength is 100 tons then alternative Abom withstood a 100 ton punch. But that's my take.

But guess what, Juggs's bridge punch is greater than any smart Hulk punch by far.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Lifting isn't the only way to measure strength.
If doing something with extreme effort can be calculated to utilize A tons of force then that's equivalent to failing to apply A+1 tons of force with extreme effort.

Here is one example:
Distance cars were thrown.

If Smart Hulk's strength range from 20 tons to whatever tons (due to fiction inconsistency) then a being hit by him means they endured 20 to whatever tons of force.

I always use a character's average strength when using ABC logic.
For example, if Smart Hulk's average strength is 100 tons then alternative Abom withstood a 100 ton punch. But that's my take.

But guess what, Juggs's bridge punch is greater than any smart Hulk punch by far.

Too much speculation here.

The common sense approach would be to power scale. All movies included for their feats.

Now Smart Hulk might have a different strength max. That's logical In-Universe given he's smaller (I think), and Hulk's strength is usually tied to his temperment,

But he still held up a massive portion of the Avengers mansion with only one good arm.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Too much speculation here.

The common sense approach would be to power scale. All movies included for their feats.

Now Smart Hulk might have a different strength max. That's logical In-Universe given he's smaller (I think), and Hulk's strength is usually tied to his temperment,

But he still held up a massive portion of the Avengers mansion with only one good arm.

You can't scale a character off another character's highest feats, only their typical portrayals. This is because fiction strength varies from scene to scene. Otherwise anyone Gladiator has punched can survive planet busting force.

So Abom taking hits from Smart Hulk is a nice feat since I value Smart Hulk's typical strength in the range of 100-500 tons.

Also wasn't that an alternative version (it didn't happen due to the Kevin shenanigans).

carver9

Originally posted by h1a8
Chains should be tissue paper to a class 100 being. I can easily rip tissue paper after being stabbed.

Plus shit like concrete and steel was knocking Hulk out and hurting him badly.

Why don't you use this type of debating style with comics?

h1a8

Originally posted by carver9
Why don't you use this type of debating style with comics?

I don't understand.

Please be specific to what you are referring to.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
You can't scale a character off another character's highest feats, only their typical portrayals. This is because fiction strength varies from scene to scene. Otherwise anyone Gladiator has punched can survive planet busting force.

So Abom taking hits from Smart Hulk is a nice feat since I value Smart Hulk's typical strength in the range of 100-500 tons.

Also wasn't that an alternative version (it didn't happen due to the Kevin shenanigans).

That's ludicrous logic. We go by highest feats to best quantify a character's limits. Unless of course there was some exceptional circumstance for that feat.

Power scaling of "typical portrayals" would be subjective AF.

It wasn't an alternate reality. It was 616.

The only character abilities She-Hulk asked K.E.V.I.N to change, was that nerd who injected himself with Hulk serum.

Otherwise she was changing the plot ending, not Smart Hulk or Abomination's strength.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's ludicrous logic. We go by highest feats to best quantify a character's limits. Unless of course there was some exceptional circumstance for that feat.

Power scaling of "typical portrayals" would be subjective AF.

It wasn't an alternate reality. It was 616.

The only character abilities She-Hulk asked K.E.V.I.N to change, was that nerd who injected himself with Hulk serum.

Otherwise she was changing the plot ending, not Smart Hulk or Abomination's strength.

We only use a character's highest showings when directly representing that character in a forum fight. However, when it comes to scaling or ABC logic, we rely on the typical portrayals of the character against whom the ABC logic is applied. Do you see the distinction?

For example, if Gladiator punches Colossus, we shouldn't automatically assume that Colossus withstood planet-busting force (Gladiator's best striking feat). This is because Gladiator's strength varies at different times. Therefore, we should use his most typical strength level when assessing how much force Colossus actually withstood.

Regarding the Hulk and Abomination, everything was undone, so that fight never happened. However, I'll still credit Abomination with the feat, so no worries there.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8

For example, if Gladiator punches Colossus, we shouldn't automatically assume that Colossus withstood planet-busting force (Gladiator's best striking feat). This is because Gladiator's strength varies at different times. Therefore, we should use his most typical strength level when assessing how much force Colossus actually withstood.

This argument is defeating your purpose. Just because Gladiator didn't hit Colossus with planet busting force doesn't mean he couldn't.

carver9

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't understand.

Please be specific to what you are referring to.

Mention ripping steel and concrete knocking characters out when in comics, some of your characters has far worst showings.

h1a8

Originally posted by carver9
Mention ripping steel and concrete knocking characters out when in comics, some of your characters has far worst showings.

Bad showings are only bad if there are contradictory good ones.
In Abom and Hulk's case there aren't any.

Originally posted by tkitna
This argument is defeating your purpose. Just because Gladiator didn't hit Colossus with planet busting force doesn't mean he couldn't.

You misunderstood. A faulty argument is that Colossus withstood planet busting force.

Originally posted by h1a8

For example, if Gladiator punches Colossus, we shouldn't automatically assume that Colossus withstood planet-busting force (Gladiator's best striking feat). This is because Gladiator's strength varies at different times. Therefore, we should use his most typical strength level when assessing how much force Colossus actually withstood.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
We only use a character's highest showings when directly representing that character in a forum fight. However, when it comes to scaling or ABC logic, we rely on the typical portrayals of the character against whom the ABC logic is applied. Do you see the distinction?

For example, if Gladiator punches Colossus, we shouldn't automatically assume that Colossus withstood planet-busting force (Gladiator's best striking feat). This is because Gladiator's strength varies at different times. Therefore, we should use his most typical strength level when assessing how much force Colossus actually withstood.

Regarding the Hulk and Abomination, everything was undone, so that fight never happened. However, I'll still credit Abomination with the feat, so no worries there.

Wrong the only objective way to scale is to use highest feats.

The issue you have with Gladiator and Colossus (aside from Gladiator's powers fluctuating according to his confidence), is that Gladiator may have been holding back.

But there's simply no reason to think that when scaling Abom against Hulk, given Hulk was going to kill him.

With Smart Hulk, it's possible, but he seemed to be pretty p***ed, and that would be the 2nd time Abom has gone up against Hulk. So no point in speculating otherwise except that you don't like the scaling.

tkitna

Yes these characters are fictional so quit trying to apply real world physics to them in every thread.

DarkSaint85

Or it's PIS, same way H1 and I argued for Black Adam using his speed.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
Yes these characters are fictional so quit trying to apply real world physics to them in every thread.

Which is heavier: a semi-truck vehicle or an ordinary #2 pencil? Congratulations, you've just applied real-world physics.

Any discussion about something being heavier, faster, or more durable inherently involves applying real-world physics.

So, when you list a character's feats to argue that they are stronger, faster, or more durable, you're essentially applying real-world physics.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
Which is heavier: a semi-truck vehicle or an ordinary #2 pencil? Congratulations, you've just applied real-world physics.

Any discussion about something being heavier, faster, or more durable inherently involves applying real-world physics.

So, when you list a character's feats to argue that they are stronger, faster, or more durable, you're essentially applying real-world physics.

How do you know a pencil isn't heavier in a fictional universe?

Robtard

Abomination easily kicked Hulk (1,500+lbs) and sent him flying through buildings where he landed several city blocks away. That requires 100+ ton strength.

/science+physics

h1a8

Originally posted by Robtard
Abomination easily kicked Hulk (1,500+lbs) and sent him flying through buildings where he landed several city blocks away. That requires 100+ ton strength.

/science+physics
1. That Hulk weighs < 1500lbs. Ragnarok and Avengers Hulk is wider and bulkier.
2. Hulk was kicked about 1-1.5 city block away. Possibly more than 100 tons yes.
3. Legs are generally twice as strong as arms. A x ton leg feat = x/2 strength level.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
How do you know a pencil isn't heavier in a fictional universe?

You forgot the key word, "ordinary ".

h1a8

Originally posted by Robtard
Abomination easily kicked Hulk (1,500+lbs) and sent him flying through buildings where he landed several city blocks away. That requires 100+ ton strength.

/science+physics

Thinking about it more. That's one hell of a feat. I always thought Hulk got kicked into the building, not completely through it. I would say that feat puts Abomination on Juggs level or above. Good catch.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
You forgot the key word, "ordinary ".

No I didn't. In a fictional world, physics and properties get thrown out the window. That's why its useless to try to incorporate them in an argument or debate.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
No I didn't. In a fictional world, physics and properties get thrown out the window. That's why its useless to try to incorporate them in an argument or debate. So you are saying that in mcu an ordinary pencil weighs more than a semi truck vehicle? Please prove that.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Thinking about it more. That's one hell of a feat. I always thought Hulk got kicked into the building, not completely through it. I would say that feat puts Abomination on Juggs level or above. Good catch.

Lmao next time try thinking first. Before immediately jumping to your keyboard to argue.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
So you are saying that in mcu an ordinary pencil weighs more than a semi truck vehicle? Please prove that.

I'm not saying that it does. I'm only saying that it could. Its a made up reality. Real world phyics and properties don't pertain.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
I'm not saying that it does. I'm only saying that it could. Its a made up reality. Real world phyics and properties don't pertain.

It only could if there is evidence that supports it. Otherwise the status quo is always true.

Robtard

Originally posted by h1a8
1. That Hulk weighs < 1500lbs. Ragnarok and Avengers Hulk is wider and bulkier.
2. Hulk was kicked about 1-1.5 city block away. Possibly more than 100 tons yes.
3. Legs are generally twice as strong as arms. A x ton leg feat = x/2 strength level.
Originally posted by h1a8
Thinking about it more. That's one hell of a feat. I always thought Hulk got kicked into the building, not completely through it. I would say that feat puts Abomination on Juggs level or above. Good catch.

They're the same Hulk, TIH (2008) was taller thumb up

No, it was much, much, much further.

Good, then we're all agreed Abomination wins thumb up

Psychotron

This is stupid. Hulk's leviathan punch puts him above 100 tons by a lot and Abomination looked twice as strong as Hulk until Hulk got sufficiently angry enough to overpower him. Since TIH Hulk and Avengers Hulk are the same character, it stands to reason that Abomination was significantly stronger than a freshly transformed Avengers Hulk.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
This is stupid. Hulk's leviathan punch puts him above 100 tons by a lot and Abomination looked twice as strong as Hulk until Hulk got sufficiently angry enough to overpower him. Since TIH Hulk and Avengers Hulk are the same character, it stands to reason that Abomination was significantly stronger than a freshly transformed Avengers Hulk.

Did you read anything? No one put Hulk under 100 tons. I even posted that Aboms kicking feat puts was probably in the 200-600 to range

Lastly Hulk in TIH was significantly weaker than Hulk in Avengers.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
Did you read anything? No one put Hulk under 100 tons. I even posted that Aboms kicking feat puts was probably in the 200-600 to range

How strong is the chain that you crapped on now?

DarkSaint85

Aren't they all the same character? Just because they look different and have different performances does not make them different characters.

In comics, just because Alex Ross draws Superman one way, and John Romita Jr draws him in the next issue a different way, doesn't make them two different characters.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
How strong is the chain that you crapped on now?

I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I can reasonably estimate that it should be less than the force required for Hulk's other major feats in his latter movies.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Aren't they all the same character? Just because they look different and have different performances does not make them different characters.

In comics, just because Alex Ross draws Superman one way, and John Romita Jr draws him in the next issue a different way, doesn't make them two different characters.

No one is arguing that they are different characters, only that the Hulk in The Incredible Hulk is shown to be significantly weaker than the Hulk in The Avengers and Thor: Ragnarok.

tkitna

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I can reasonably estimate that it should be less than the force required for Hulk's other major feats in his latter movies.

You admitted that Abomination was in the 200 to 600 ton range. Do your calculations with your space numbers and tell us how strong the chain was that you earlier scoffed at because they couldn't break it.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
You admitted that Abomination was in the 200 to 600 ton range. Do your calculations with your space numbers and tell us how strong the chain was that you earlier scoffed at because they couldn't break it.

After conducting research on industrial chains, it appears that the chain had a breaking strength of less than 160 tons. However, the most commonly cited estimates suggest a breaking strength in the range of 100-120 tons.

Keep in mind that leg strength is typically about twice as much as arm strength. If Abomination can apply 200-600 tons of force with his legs, then it's reasonable to estimate that he could exert around 100-300 tons with his arms, which seems consistent.

John Murdoch

Gotta go with Abomination, especially scaling him to Hulk*, who has fought Ragnarok Thor and Thanos, punched and flipped a Leviathan ship, wrestled with a dog the size of a semi-truck, and rocked Surtur back with a leaping punch. Current Abomination is nearly double Professor Hulk's size, and was easily defending himself against Hulk's attacks in She-Hulk. Abomination did get knocked out from his own punch via Wong's portal though.

DP II Juggernaut has the bridge feat (an outstanding one), and is the superior combatant to Colossus, who is not near the opponent that Abomination has faced. Colossus only got the upper hand on Juggs through using the metal railing as a spiked striking glove and shoving the high-powered electrical cable up Juggs' caboose.

The fact of the matter is that you have two opponents that have feats primarily (with the exception of Juggs' bridge feat) based off scaling to their main enemies in their respective film and TV show. Going off that, Abomination is the clear winner.

*I know that scaling is hit-or-miss on this board, but I'm not talking about Keaton Batman scaling being able to beat Cavill Superman because he temporarily took down Nam-ek in the Flash. In this case, it is fitting for Juggs and Abom, as they are both super-strong and super-durable mass monster brutes that have shown their fighting chops against other super-strong and super-durable mass monster brutes. Emil simply has way more to go off in that regard.

h1a8

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Gotta go with Abomination, especially scaling him to Hulk*, who has fought Ragnarok Thor and Thanos, punched and flipped a Leviathan ship, wrestled with a dog the size of a semi-truck, and rocked Surtur back with a leaping punch. Current Abomination is nearly double Professor Hulk's size, and was easily defending himself against Hulk's attacks in She-Hulk. Abomination did get knocked out from his own punch via Wong's portal though.

DP II Juggernaut has the bridge feat (an outstanding one), and is the superior combatant to Colossus, who is not near the opponent that Abomination has faced. Colossus only got the upper hand on Juggs through using the metal railing as a spiked striking glove and shoving the high-powered electrical cable up Juggs' caboose.

The fact of the matter is that you have two opponents that have feats primarily (with the exception of Juggs' bridge feat) based off scaling to their main enemies in their respective film and TV show. Going off that, Abomination is the clear winner.

*I know that scaling is hit-or-miss on this board, but I'm not talking about Keaton Batman scaling being able to beat Cavill Superman because he temporarily took down Nam-ek in the Flash. In this case, it is fitting for Juggs and Abom, as they are both super-strong and super-durable mass monster brutes that have shown their fighting chops against other super-strong and super-durable mass monster brutes. Emil simply has way more to go off in that regard.

1. You can't scale The Incredible Hulk's Abomination to Professor Hulk because Hulk outside of The Incredible Hulk was significantly stronger.

2. Hulk fighting Abomination in She-Hulk never happened - it was erased.

3. When characters are compared using ABC logic, they don't share their highest feats; they share their average feats. So, Abomination only scales to Hulk's average feats.

4. The bridge feat is significantly beyond anything Hulk has done at an average level. Personally, I don't see any Hulk replicating that feat.

Leviathan feat: < 1,000 tons
Wrestling a huge dog: < 1,000 tons

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly Hulk in TIH was significantly weaker than Hulk in Avengers.

Yeah, that's the part that's stupid.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, that's the part that's stupid.
Rewatch all the scenes and estimate the level of strength Hulk is displaying. Would you place it at 50 tons, 100 tons, or something else?

Hulk uses car parts as weapons, even though those parts should feel like cardboard to beings of this caliber. Hulk gets hurt and nearly knocked out by steel chains, while Abomination is choked and unable to break free from them - both of which should be insignificant to beings of their strength. Abomination runs away from helicopter fire as if it poses a serious threat.

Lastly, consider the distances they jump, throw objects, and strike things away. In each instance, we can reasonably estimate their strength, which consistently appears to be below 100 tons. The only outlier is Abomination's kicking feat, which, at most, suggests a strength level of around 300 tons.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yeah, that's the part that's stupid.

Agreed.

He'd have a stronger argument saying Smart Hulk is weaker simply because it's a clearly different incarnation of Hulk who is physically smaller.

Interestingly Abom takes a few punches from a p***ed Smart Hulk in the She-Hulk finale, although She-Hulk got the scene overwritten so that Hulk was never there.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
Rewatch all the scenes and estimate the level of strength Hulk is displaying. Would you place it at 50 tons, 100 tons, or something else?

Hulk uses car parts as weapons, even though those parts should feel like cardboard to beings of this caliber. Hulk gets hurt and nearly knocked out by steel chains, while Abomination is choked and unable to break free from them - both of which should be insignificant to beings of their strength. Abomination runs away from helicopter fire as if it poses a serious threat.

Lastly, consider the distances they jump, throw objects, and strike things away. In each instance, we can reasonably estimate their strength, which consistently appears to be below 100 tons. The only outlier is Abomination's kicking feat, which, at most, suggests a strength level of around 300 tons.

And then we have a freshly-transformed Hulk taking out a Leviathan with one punch in Avengers, while Abomination easily overpowered Hulk before his rage increased his strength enough to beat Blonsky. You love to ignore this because it kills your argument, but they're the same character. There's no evidence or any kind of statement that supports your claim that Hulk got an amp between The Incredible Hulk and Avengers.

These kinds of inconsistencies happen all the time in movies and comics. Spider-man can barely hold a cable car in Spider-man 1, but he stops an entire train Spider-man 2. Wolverine gets knocked out by a bullet to the skull in X2 but he tanks Jean's tk in X3. Tony tanks an F-22 and a direct hit from an actual tank in Iron Man but he gets pieced up by Captain America in h2h in Civil War.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Agreed.

He'd have a stronger argument saying Smart Hulk is weaker simply because it's a clearly different incarnation of Hulk who is physically smaller.

Interestingly Abom takes a few punches from a p***ed Smart Hulk in the She-Hulk finale, although She-Hulk got the scene overwritten so that Hulk was never there.

Annd Smart Hulk has that feat of throwing a boulder hard enough that it ignites from the air friction which easily puts him in Class 100 too.

Psychotron

Just for fun I had chatgpt do h1a8 calculations on the boulder scene. According to the AI, the force required is equivalent to 28,000 metric tons. And Abomination took punches from that guy.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
And then we have a freshly-transformed Hulk taking out a Leviathan with one punch in Avengers, while Abomination easily overpowered Hulk before his rage increased his strength enough to beat Blonsky. You love to ignore this because it kills your argument, but they're the same character. There's no evidence or any kind of statement that supports your claim that Hulk got an amp between The Incredible Hulk and Avengers.

These kinds of inconsistencies happen all the time in movies and comics. Spider-man can barely hold a cable car in Spider-man 1, but he stops an entire train Spider-man 2. Wolverine gets knocked out by a bullet to the skull in X2 but he tanks Jean's tk in X3. Tony tanks an F-22 and a direct hit from an actual tank in Iron Man but he gets pieced up by Captain America in h2h in Civil War.

Annd Smart Hulk has that feat of throwing a boulder hard enough that it ignites from the air friction which easily puts him in Class 100 too.
You didn't even address these points

Originally posted by h1a8
1. You can't scale The Incredible Hulk's Abomination to Professor Hulk because Hulk outside of The Incredible Hulk was significantly stronger.

2. Hulk fighting Abomination in She-Hulk never happened - it was erased.

3. When characters are compared using ABC logic, they don't share their highest feats; they share their average feats. So, Abomination only scales to Hulk's average feats.

4. The bridge feat is significantly beyond anything Hulk has done at an average level. Personally, I don't see any Hulk replicating that feat.

Ill ignore 1. and 2.

You still have an issue with point 3, and you even proved it yourself in this post when you pointed out the large inconsistencies in fictional characters. That's why you can only scale a character based on their average showings, not their best or worst outliers.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Just for fun I had chatgpt do h1a8 calculations on the boulder scene. According to the AI, the force required is equivalent to 28,000 metric tons. And Abomination took punches from that guy.

I'll calculate it myself. Then ill check it with the AI.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't even address these points

Yes, because it's pointless. They're the same character.

DarkSaint85

So why use point 4 (Juggernaut's bridge feat) yet decry high outliers in point 3?

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So why use point 4 (Juggernaut's bridge feat) yet decry high outliers in point 3?

There's an important distinction to make here. While it's common and acceptable to reference a character's highest feats in a debate, it's faulty to apply those same standards when scaling combatants based on their encounters with non-combatants (ABC logic). This approach ignores the fact that fictional characters often exhibit inconsistent feats.

For example, Supergirl may casually lift a half-million-ton key in one instance, only to struggle with a ~100-ton object later. So, when another character, say X, fights her, she could be operating at the half-million-ton level, the ~100-ton level, or her most typical shown range (somewhere in between). The most logical assumption is that she was performing at her typical range during the fight.

Another example is Gladiator, who once busted a small planet with his punches (far exceeding mountain-level power). Yet Colossus, who fought him for an extended time, tanked his blows. Does that mean Colossus has planet-busting durability, making him immune to anything less than quadrillions of tons of force in a forum fight? Obviously not. Same goes for Classic Drax vs Mar-vell, etc.

These examples highlight why ABC logic is unreliable. It oversimplifies characters' fluctuating power levels, which is why I avoid using it in debates.

Psychotron

Using this logic, Hulk's average should be the average between The Incredible Hulk, Avengers, Avengers AoU, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, Thor: Ragnarok and She-Hulk. Off the top of my head, Hulk gets the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, overpowering Thor, holding up Avengers Mansion with only one arm, overpowering Fenrir, moving Surtur with an attack and throwing a boulder hard to reach escape velocity.

What's the average here, h1a8?

tkitna

The Leviathan feat is noticeably lower than breaking a concrete bridge?

Lolololol

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
Punching a hole in a bridge is more impressive than stopping a leviathan? What a joke your physics teacher larp is.

Hulk threw the boulder hard enough for it to ignite and explode due to friction. That's 100% escape velocity.

Why, because you don't like it?

Thor's feat of aligning Nidavellir's rings and re-igniting the forge puts him multiple strength tiers above Juggernaut. Those rings easily weigh in the multi-million ton range. Since those rings were stationary and frozen when Thor arrived, he had to overpower the static friction and break the ice to move them, and if you're gonna say that it was in space, Nidavellir is situated in the gravitational influence of a neutron star which is a lot more powerful than Earth's gravity. Thor was working against that gravity.

I will address every point you made, unlike some troll posters do here.

Punch a hole in a bridge? Rewatch the bridge scene, you're missing a lot.
Look a 0:15

yzuKQg9A-uY?si=uudGDbm_lVA75ifU

1. Juggernaut first punched through a solid steel floor. Do you know how much kinetic energy that absorbs before he even hit the bridge?
2. The strike was so powerful that it not only created a visible shockwave that lifted the massive truck into the air, but also instantly created a rippled Shockwave in the reinforced concrete that spanned over 1,000 square feet, eventually leaving a large gaping hole in the bridge.
3. The bridge was made of steel-reinforced concrete. It takes more than 4,000 tons of force to accomplish that feat exactly.

I worked out the science behind the rings a while ago. The rings were trying to move, but they were stuck in ice. All Thor had to do was add enough force to break the ice. For ice to stop something from moving, its resisting force has to exceed the force trying to move it, even if it's just by 1 pound. That means Thor could have exerted as little as 1 pound of force to break the ice since the rings were already providing additional force. Obviously, he applied more than that, but you get the point. The feat is unquantifiable unless we know the exact specs of Rocket's ship.

In short, the ship was supplying the actual pulling force. Thor was bracing against it as an anchor. Do you really believe that ship could reasonably pull more than 100 tons of force?

Gravity had no impact on this feat, as others were able to stand and move around unaffected. Plus, the ship did the pulling while Thor did the holding and bracing.

You're backtracking again. You can't use a character's highest feats to scale another character. Do you really believe Thor could replicate that bridge feat with his bare fist?

The boulder wasn't shown to ignite or explode; it just traveled far enough to disappear from view. The sound you hear is a sonic boom. Stop believing the misinformation you find online.

DarkSaint85

Actually, you see the boulder ignite/explode:

https://i.postimg.cc/L5F1wwdJ/Capture.jpg

Moving the brightness down etc, shows this quite clearly:

https://i.postimg.cc/B60Z006f/Hulk.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk uses car parts as weapons, even though those parts should feel like cardboard to beings of this caliber. Hulk gets hurt and nearly knocked out by steel chains, while Abomination is choked and unable to break free from them - both of which should be insignificant to beings of their strength. Abomination runs away from helicopter fire as if it poses a serious threat.

Colossus was using a metal railing as a knuckleduster, hurting Juggernaut.

Juggernaut was grunting with effort when swinging a prison bus as a weapon, even though it should feel like cardboard.

Colossus was also using a car's bumper as a weapon against Juggy, even though he's strong enough to break Juggernaut's bones, and cardboard etc.

And then Yukio tied Juggy up with her little chain whip, but we can excuse that by attributing all sorts of wonderf- wait, no, we need to prove that it has special durability properties.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
I will address every point you made, unlike some troll posters do here.

Punch a hole in a bridge? Rewatch the bridge scene, you're missing a lot.

1. Juggernaut first punched through a solid steel floor. Do you know how much kinetic energy that absorbs before he even hit the bridge?
2. The strike was so powerful that it not only created a visible shockwave that lifted the massive truck into the air, but also instantly created a rippled Shockwave in the reinforced concrete that spanned over 1,000 square feet, eventually leaving a large gaping hole in the bridge.
3. The bridge was made of steel-reinforced concrete. It takes more than 4,000 tons of force to accomplish that feat exactly.

I worked out the science behind the rings a while ago. The rings were trying to move, but they were stuck in ice. All Thor had to do was add enough force to break the ice. For ice to stop something from moving, its resisting force has to exceed the force trying to move it, even if it's just by 1 pound. That means Thor could have exerted as little as 1 pound of force to break the ice since the rings were already providing additional force. Obviously, he applied more than that, but you get the point. The feat is unquantifiable unless we know the exact specs of Rocket's ship.

In short, the ship was supplying the actual pulling force. Thor was bracing against it as an anchor. Do you really believe that ship could reasonably pull more than 100 tons of force?

Gravity had no impact on this feat, as others were able to stand and move around unaffected. Plus, the ship did the pulling while Thor did the holding and bracing.

You're backtracking again. You can't use a character's highest feats to scale another character. Do you really believe Thor could replicate that bridge feat with his bare fist?

The boulder wasn't shown to ignite or explode; it just traveled far enough to disappear from view. The sound you hear is a sonic boom. Stop believing the misinformation you find online.

I did rewatch the bridge scene. There's a hole. Much of the bridge was still standing after the punch. 4000 tons isn't much for Hulk and Thor based on their feats.

You didn't work out shit. The Forge was disabled a long time before Infinity War, the neutron star was sealed and rings were stopped completely.

Yes, the ship was doing the pulling, but Thor acted as an anchor. His grip, back and legs needed to be strong enough to hold the rope. Grip strength gives out first when performing heavy pulls, so that shows that Thor's larger muscle groups (legs, back chest) were even stronger.

Rocket's ship is capable of FTL travel. Of course it can exert more than 100 tons of force. What kind of ridiculous question is that?

Ah okay, gravity doesn't count now. Cool. Very scientific.

There's no reason to believe Thor can't replicate the bridge feat based on his own feats. He went toe to toe with the Hulk in H2H before Hulk's rage amped his strength enough to overpower Thor.

The boulder absolutely exploded. You're either lying or trolling at this point.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Colossus was using a metal railing as a knuckleduster, hurting Juggernaut.

Juggernaut was grunting with effort when swinging a prison bus as a weapon, even though it should feel like cardboard.

Colossus was also using a car's bumper as a weapon against Juggy, even though he's strong enough to break Juggernaut's bones, and cardboard etc.

And then Yukio tied Juggy up with her little chain whip, but we can excuse that by attributing all sorts of wonderf- wait, no, we need to prove that it has special durability properties.

Exactly! Now you see the inconsistencies in fiction and why it's flawed to scale characters based on another's lowest or highest feats. However, it's acceptable to use the highest direct feats for the actual combatants in the thread, which is why everyone here highlights a character's peak showings during debates.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Exactly! Now you see the inconsistencies in fiction and why it's flawed to scale characters based on another's lowest or highest feats. However, it's acceptable to use the highest direct feats for the actual combatants in the thread, which is why everyone here highlights a character's peak showings during debates.

Your original post was about how weak those characters (i.e. Hulk and Abomination) were depicted in that film.

My post is about how weak Juggernaut and Colossus were depicted in the Deadpool film, and that the bridge is a likely outlier (I don't particularly care at the moment about how many tons of force it takes etc)..

Also, it's no dust trail left by the boulder as it flashes bright momentarily, as my screenshot amply displays.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Your original post was about how weak those characters (i.e. Hulk and Abomination) were depicted in that film.

My post is about how weak Juggernaut and Colossus were depicted in the Deadpool film, and that the bridge is a likely outlier (I don't particularly care at the moment about how many tons of force it takes etc)..

Also, it's no dust trail left by the boulder as it flashes bright momentarily, as my screenshot amply displays.

I didn't notice any inconsistencies in The Incredible Hulk until Robtard pointed out the kicking feat. After that, I accepted the feat (Abomination's highest outlier) as his strength level for forum debates.

It looks like a dust trail to me, although the boulder does seem to get brighter at the end. Still, it looks like it just traveled far away. Many on other sites are claiming it went into outer space. I disagree with that.

Robtard

Saying Norton's Hulk (which is the same MCU Hulk) is weak, is a silly and sissyboy's argument. eg Jumping from Brazil to Guatemala overnight is an extremely high feat of strength, as the Hulk would have had to clears many, many miles of distance per leap. There's more feats.

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to even the most southern border of Guatemala is 4,100+ miles.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't notice any inconsistencies in The Incredible Hulk until Robtard pointed out the kicking feat. After that, I accepted the feat (Abomination's highest outlier) as his strength level for forum debates.

It looks like a dust trail to me, although the boulder does seem to get brighter at the end. Still, it looks like it just traveled far away. Many on other sites are claiming it went into outer space. I disagree with that.

You also disagreed that the boulder ignited, and that the sound is just due to a sonic boom.

Whilst the two aren't exclusive, it definitely flashed brighter, as my screenshot shot amply displays:

https://i.postimg.cc/B60Z006f/Hulk.jpg

Dust trails don't flash brightly.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
No, I don't. You're just speculating. It's never been said or implied that the space ships in GotG travel through anything but propulsion.

I don't need to look at websites, h1. My eyes work and I can look at the scene for myself. It exploded. Now, if you want to pretend that didn't happen and the boulder went into space, then that still puts Smart Hulk into the multi-thousand ton range which is more than suffient to replicate the bridge feat.

Are you taking the piss ? Meteors explode in the atmosphere due to the high speed and friction all the time. Don't tell me you didn't know that.

Thor has fought Hulk twice and was presented as a physical peer to Hulk both times until Hulk's rage built up enough for Hulk to overpower Thor. He's stopped a punch from Hulk with one arm, so you're wrong. That is a typical showing for him. That + his Nidavellir feats put him far above Juggernaut.

Without solid evidence of how much thrust the Rocket can exert, there's no real Nidavellir feat for Thor. Like I said, we don't know how much additional force was needed to move the already turning rings and break the ice.

Meanwhile, DS, myself, and others from different sites are claiming otherwise. Most people are saying it went into space, while you're the only one suggesting it exploded, which clearly isn't shown. Do you even know what an exploding meteor looks like?

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You also disagreed that the boulder ignited, and that the sound is just due to a sonic boom.

Whilst the two aren't exclusive, it definitely flashed brighter, as my screenshot shot amply displays:

https://i.postimg.cc/B60Z006f/Hulk.jpg

Dust trails don't flash brightly.

Get brighter =/= ignite in all cases.
I agree that it got brighter though.

h1a8

Originally posted by Robtard
Saying Norton's Hulk (which is the same MCU Hulk) is weak, is a silly and sissyboy's argument. eg Jumping from Brazil to Guatemala overnight is an extremely high feat of strength, as the Hulk would have had to clears many, many miles of distance per leap. There's more feats.

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to even the most southern border of Guatemala is 4,100+ miles.

The force Abomination generated with his kick is the same as the force needed to jump a great distance, so there's no inconsistency there.

The kicking feat you pointed out shows that Abomination isn't weak.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool. Please give probable (not just possible) alternative explanations, with proof.

Remember, your original alternative was:

So please explain how a dust trail can get brighter.

I wasn't saying the dust trail got brighter - I was referring to the boulder.

Can I give an example of something getting brighter without igniting?

Are we just arguing semantics here? I took "ignite" to mean catching fire like a fireball. If getting hot enough to glow qualifies as igniting, then I stand corrected.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
Without solid evidence of how much thrust the Rocket can exert, there's no real Nidavellir feat for Thor. Like I said, we don't know how much additional force was needed to move the already turning rings and break the ice.

Meanwhile, DS, myself, and others from different sites are claiming otherwise. Most people are saying it went into space, while you're the only one suggesting it exploded, which clearly isn't shown. Do you even know what an exploding meteor looks like?

Rocket's ship could exert enough thrust to go FTL. That's the bottom line unless you've got proof that Rocket's ship travels through alternative means.

The rings were not turning. The forge had been shut down for a long period of time. Thor had to overcome the static friction and the built up ice.

First of all, DS clearly doesn't agree with you. Second, I don't care what "people on other websites" claim, h1. My eyes and my brain still work. Try using yours. Also, even if it went into space, that still suits my argument. The force required to toss a boulder into space is more than the force required to punch a whole in a bridge.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
I wasn't saying the dust trail got brighter - I was referring to the boulder.

Can I give an example of something getting brighter without igniting?

Are we just arguing semantics here? I took "ignite" to mean catching fire like a fireball. If getting hot enough to glow qualifies as igniting, then I stand corrected.

It also expands:
https://i.postimg.cc/43vKbSQv/4.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTWnsm9C/6.jpg

Getting brighter and suddenly expanding over a very short period of time = exploding.

For sandstone (lowballing here) approximately the size of a car, ovoid in shape, to undergo sufficient air friction to glow at high altitudes, you need to be travelling at around 7-8km per second, and that's just to begin glowing red-hot (the boulder is clearly white hot, but let's lowball).

That takes about 270 billion joules of energy, or 27million tons of force in a very short amount of time.

Insane, especially as this Hulk doesn't seem that mad - competitive, yes, but not tooth-gnashingly angry.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
Rocket's ship could exert enough thrust to go FTL. That's the bottom line unless you've got proof that Rocket's ship travels through alternative means.

The rings were not turning. The forge had been shut down for a long period of time. Thor had to overcome the static friction and the built up ice.

First of all, DS clearly doesn't agree with you. Second, I don't care what "people on other websites" claim, h1. My eyes and my brain still work. Try using yours. Also, even if it went into space, that still suits my argument. The force required to toss a boulder into space is more than the force required to punch a whole in a bridge.

Prove that Rocket's ship can generate enough thrust to travel faster than light, because it's only been shown to achieve FTL travel using wormholes and the Universal Neural Teleportation Network.

The rings were already exerting force on the ice while trying to turn, but the ice had them stuck. Thor only needed an unknown amount of ADDITIONAL force to break the ice. I'm shocked that you are not understanding what I'm talking about.

My point is that others interpret the scene differently, and it's not as clear-cut as you claim. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't accept that the boulder traveled into space either.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Rocket's ship can generate enough thrust to travel faster than light, because it's only been shown to achieve FTL travel using wormholes and the Universal Neural Teleportation Network.

The rings were already exerting force on the ice while trying to turn, but the ice had them stuck. Thor only needed an unknown amount of ADDITIONAL force to break the ice. I'm shocked that you are not understanding what I'm talking about.

My point is that others interpret the scene differently, and it's not as clear-cut as you claim. You're welcome to your opinion, but I don't accept that the boulder traveled into space either.

I'll concede that those gates exist in the MCU, but the Guardians found Thor in the middle of nowhere, far from any gate. Their ships still need to be able to achieve speeds far greater than any real spacecraft we've ever built on Earth to travel between planets in different solar systems.

The forge had no power for a long time before Thor arrived. That's why it was frozen in the first place. Now, you could make the argument that the station got power again once the dyson sphere began opening, and the rings started moving on their own, but Thor and Rocket provided the initial pull which overcame the static friction and the ice. Also, the Russos say in the commentary of the scene that this is something very few people in the universe can do, so it's clearly meant to be a herculean feat.

And my point is that whether Banner threw the boulder into space or it exploded, he still generated more force than Juggernaut ever has. Do you agree?

Robtard

Originally posted by h1a8
The force Abomination generated with his kick is the same as the force needed to jump a great distance, so there's no inconsistency there.

The kicking feat you pointed out shows that Abomination isn't weak.

You're not good at science, reason or logic. So let me break it down for you.

Hulk's Brazil to Guatemala travel distance feat is far more impressive than Abomination's impressive kicking feat. Yet we know Abomination is stronger than the Hulk until he gets full-on raged.

h1a8

Originally posted by Robtard
You're not good at science, reason or logic. So let me break it down for you.

Hulk's Brazil to Guatemala travel distance feat is far more impressive than Abomination's impressive kicking feat. Yet we know Abomination is stronger than the Hulk until he gets full-on raged.

I never said it wasn't more impressive. Trust me, I've done the calculations. Hulk was clearing about 3 miles per jump to cover the 3580 mile distance in about 10 hour. The force required for each jump is between 1 to 3 times the force of Abomination's kicking feat, still under the 2,000-ton range.

Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats due to inconsistencies in fiction. He only scales to Hulk's average, typical feats.

Next time get a definite false statement from me before claiming I'm not good at science, reason, or logic.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
I'll concede that those gates exist in the MCU, but the Guardians found Thor in the middle of nowhere, far from any gate. Their ships still need to be able to achieve speeds far greater than any real spacecraft we've ever built on Earth to travel between planets in different solar systems.

The forge had no power for a long time before Thor arrived. That's why it was frozen in the first place. Now, you could make the argument that the station got power again once the dyson sphere began opening, and the rings started moving on their own, but Thor and Rocket provided the initial pull which overcame the static friction and the ice. Also, the Russos say in the commentary of the scene that this is something very few people in the universe can do, so it's clearly meant to be a herculean feat.

And my point is that whether Banner threw the boulder into space or it exploded, he still generated more force than Juggernaut ever has. Do you agree?

Wrong! They didn't just stumble upon Thor in space - they responded to a distress signal. They jumped to that location and found Thor near the wreckage.

The moment they broke the ice, the rings started moving instantly. That means the rings were stuck but still trying to move the entire time.

Again, Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats, only his average, typical ones. So whether or not the boulder feat is superior is irrelevant, as it's far outside of Hulk's typical showings.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It also expands:
https://i.postimg.cc/43vKbSQv/4.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTWnsm9C/6.jpg

Getting brighter and suddenly expanding over a very short period of time = exploding.

For sandstone (lowballing here) approximately the size of a car, ovoid in shape, to undergo sufficient air friction to glow at high altitudes, you need to be travelling at around 7-8km per second, and that's just to begin glowing red-hot (the boulder is clearly white hot, but let's lowball).

That takes about 270 billion joules of energy, or 27million tons of force in a very short amount of time.

Insane, especially as this Hulk doesn't seem that mad - competitive, yes, but not tooth-gnashingly angry.

I haven't calculated the feat yet, but simply throwing a boulder of that size faster than the speed of sound could potentially be more impressive than the bridge feat. If that's the case, the feat could be used to represent Hulk's strength in a forum debate.

Robtard

Originally posted by h1a8
I never said it wasn't more impressive. Trust me, I've done the calculations. Hulk was clearing about 3 miles per jump to cover the 3580 mile distance in about 10 hour. The force required for each jump is between 1 to 3 times the force of Abomination's kicking feat, still under the 2,000-ton range.

Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats due to inconsistencies in fiction. He only scales to Hulk's average, typical feats.

Next time get a definite false statement from me before claiming I'm not good at science, reason, or logic.

Your maths and logic definitely sucks and here's another example: If the force is "1-3 times" by yours estimate, that means it could be equal to on the lower end of the spectrum, when it's clearly not, not even close to being equal or even three times greater.

We know Abm kicked the Hulk several city blocks, while the Hulk jumped 3+ miles. If we say it was 3-6 blocks in Harlem and that's fair, that's about a quarter mile average the Hulk was sent flying. Still very impressive, but nowhere near the 3+ to (maybe 5) miles of the other feat. Unless you think a 1 to 12(or greater) ratio is close. Though other people think it was around one city block at best.

Abm does scale, as we have direct correlation in their fight and feats. You claim or dismiss inconsistencies when it suits you. Your attempt here now has been denied. Hulk and Adm scale off each other. Period.

And since you're playing doucebag games, Norton Hulk is the same MCU Hulk, so all of Hulk's MCU greatest feats scale back to Abm, who was stronger than the Hulk until the buttmad happened. That means Abm could literally tear The Juggernaut in half, who had trouble taking out Colossus, a mid-tier brick in Marvel.

DarkSaint85

Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Robtard

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Yes. He was created using a refined "strength" formula from Banner's blood. They made it very clear that Abm was considerably stronger than the Hulk, until the Hulk got very mad. Which gels with the comic, as that film was written in part by Lee and Kirby after all.

Just because Abm had one leg strength feat that was lesser, doesn't mean Hulk is stronger.

h1a8

Originally posted by Robtard
Your maths and logic definitely sucks and here's another example: If the force is "1-3 times" by yours estimate, that means it could be equal to on the lower end of the spectrum, when it's clearly not, not even close to being equal or even three times greater.

We know Abm kicked the Hulk several city blocks, while the Hulk jumped 3+ miles. If we say it was 3-6 blocks in Harlem and that's fair, that's about a quarter mile average the Hulk was sent flying. Still very impressive, but nowhere near the 3+ to (maybe 5) miles of the other feat. Unless you think a 1 to 12(or greater) ratio is close. Though other people think it was around one city block at best.

Abm does scale, as we have direct correlation in their fight and feats. You claim or dismiss inconsistencies when it suits you. Your attempt here now has been denied. Hulk and Adm scale off each other. Period.

And since you're playing doucebag games, Norton Hulk is the same MCU Hulk, so all of Hulk's MCU greatest feats scale back to Abm, who was stronger than the Hulk until the buttmad happened. That means Abm could literally tear The Juggernaut in half, who had trouble taking out Colossus, a mid-tier brick in Marvel.

By the way, say no to drugs. Lol.

The impressive part of the Abomination feat wasn't just the distance - it was that Hulk smashed through brick walls and other obstacles in the process. Did you even try calculating it?

Jumping around 3 miles while weighing 1,000 lbs requires roughly 1,000 tons of force. I can walk you through the math if you're interested. I also factored in wind resistance, but it turned out to be negligible (it only adds a small fraction to the result).

Kicking a 1,000 lb opponent a single city block (where are you getting the 3 - 6 block estimate from?) through several brick walls requires between 400 and 1,000 tons of force.

Just because it's the same character doesn't mean they have the same strength in both movies. And due to fictional inconsistencies, you can't scale one character based on another character's outlier feats. You can only scale them off their average typical feats.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Writer intent was always that Abomination is stronger, no?

Being stronger than someone at their weaker state doesn't mean you're stronger than them at their stronger state. Moreover, even if a character is proven to be stronger in a direct strength comparison, the stronger character doesn't automatically inherit the weaker character's highest outlier feats.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong! They didn't just stumble upon Thor in space - they responded to a distress signal. They jumped to that location and found Thor near the wreckage.

The moment they broke the ice, the rings started moving instantly. That means the rings were stuck but still trying to move the entire time.

Again, Abomination doesn't scale to Hulk's best feats, only his average, typical ones. So whether or not the boulder feat is superior is irrelevant, as it's far outside of Hulk's typical showings.

And where was that wreckage? In the middle of nowhere. Also, do you think that there are gates at every planet? They obviously need to be able to traverse space quickly when they're traveling in or between star systems.

How were they trying to move if there was no power? Why did they freeze in the first place?

No, it's not. Hulk's average includes his fights with Thor, the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, moving Surtur, holding up Avengers mansion with one arm, overpowering Fenrir and the boulder.

Hulk has a lot of good feats, while Juggernaut has one, so if we're going by averages, Hulk >> Juggernaut.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
And where was that wreckage? In the middle of nowhere. Also, do you think that there are gates at every planet? They obviously need to be able to traverse space quickly when they're traveling in or between star systems.

How were they trying to move if there was no power? Why did they freeze in the first place?

No, it's not. Hulk's average includes his fights with Thor, the Leviathan punch, tanking a collapsing skyscraper, moving Surtur, holding up Avengers mansion with one arm, overpowering Fenrir and the boulder.

Hulk has a lot of good feats, while Juggernaut has one, so if we're going by averages, Hulk >> Juggernaut.

What's the point of debating if you're going to forget or ignore my rebuttals? I don't like repeating myself.

I already addressed Hulk's non-Mansion lifting feat and the issue with the Surtur feat. I also pointed out that the Leviathan feat is a standard one, as is battling Fenris. The boulder feat, however, is not standard unless we assume it moved at visual speed (just above the speed of sound).

I noticed you're shifting the goalposts. 'Fast' is a relative term. The claim is that they can achieve FTL through propulsion. When traveling to Thor, they were shown moving through warped space and then instantly dropping out of it upon reaching their destination. Rewatch the scene.

Also, when Rocket fired the engines with Thor attached (after Thor threw it), the ship was traveling well below the speed of light for a significant period, meaning its acceleration was poor in that scene.

As soon as the ice broke, the rings moved instantly. Where did the power come from right after the ice broke? You're making things up just to win the debate.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
By the way, say no to drugs. Lol.

The impressive part of the Abomination feat wasn't just the distance - it was that Hulk smashed through brick walls and other obstacles in the process. Did you even try calculating it?

Jumping around 3 miles while weighing 1,000 lbs requires roughly 1,000 tons of force. I can walk you through the math if you're interested. I also factored in wind resistance, but it turned out to be negligible (it only adds a small fraction to the result).

Kicking a 1,000 lb opponent a single city block (where are you getting the 3 - 6 block estimate from?) through several brick walls requires between 400 and 1,000 tons of force.

Just because it's the same character doesn't mean they have the same strength in both movies. And due to fictional inconsistencies, you can't scale one character based on another character's outlier feats. You can only scale them off their average typical feats.

Being stronger than someone at their weaker state doesn't mean you're stronger than them at their stronger state. Moreover, even if a character is proven to be stronger in a direct strength comparison, the stronger character doesn't automatically inherit the weaker character's highest outlier feats.

That's not how it works.

Abomination is stronger than a 'base' Hulk. Then when Hulk becomes super mad, he becomes stronger than Abomination.

Whatever Hulk can do when not super mad (jumping across countries, engaging in a playful competition with his beloved cousin), Abomination can surpass.

There is no writer intent that Abomination cannot surpass outliers of Hulk when he's calm. He's meant - from the outset - to be stronger than Hulk.

h1a8

Psychotron

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's not how it works.

Abomination is stronger than a 'base' Hulk. Then when Hulk becomes super mad, he becomes stronger than Abomination.

Whatever Hulk can do when not super mad (jumping across countries, engaging in a playful competition with his beloved cousin), Abomination can surpass.

There is no writer intent that Abomination cannot surpass outliers of Hulk when he's calm. He's meant - from the outset - to be stronger than Hulk.

Especially since Smart Hulk's punches didn't do much to Abomination and he has his boulder tossing feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
What's the point of debating if you're going to forget or ignore my rebuttals? I don't like repeating myself.

I already addressed Hulk's non-Mansion lifting feat and the issue with the Surtur feat. I also pointed out that the Leviathan feat is a standard one, as is battling Fenris. The boulder feat, however, is not standard unless we assume it moved at visual speed (just above the speed of sound).

I noticed you're shifting the goalposts. 'Fast' is a relative term. The claim is that they can achieve FTL through propulsion. When traveling to Thor, they were shown moving through warped space and then instantly dropping out of it upon reaching their destination. Rewatch the scene.

Also, when Rocket fired the engines with Thor attached (after Thor threw it), the ship was traveling well below the speed of light for a significant period, meaning its acceleration was poor in that scene.

As soon as the ice broke, the rings moved instantly. Where did the power come from right after the ice broke? You're making things up just to win the debate.

You didn't address the feats, you just decided they don't count. It doesn't work that way. If you agree that the Leviathan punch is a standard feat for Hulk, then Hulk already surpasses Juggernaut, and Abomination is stronger than base Hulk, so what are we arguing about?

I conceded that they have warp portals. They still need to move considerably faster than any real world spacecraft because they traverse star systems very quickly.

You forgot the part where Thor shouted "More power!" to Rocket while they were pulling the rings.

You're dodging the question. Why and how did the rings freeze in the first place? Also, the Russos' blatantly said that Thor is one of the very few beings in the universe that could perform the feat.

The rings started moving because Thor/Rocket overcame the ice and the static friction. It's like pushing a car; once you get it going it's easy.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Remember that you posted this?

And I replied with this

That said, Hulk made approximately 3-mile jumps if we assume he jumped continuously for 10 hours. That's a standard feat for him.

Agreed, but Abomination is always meant to be stronger than a calm base Hulk. So whatever a calm base Hulk can do, Abomination surpasses that, due to writer's intent.

Colossus/Juggernaut's relativity to generic iron railings and car bumpers are a separate case.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
Especially since Smart Hulk's punches didn't do much to Abomination and he has his boulder tossing feat.

You didn't address the feats, you just decided they don't count. It doesn't work that way. If you agree that the Leviathan punch is a standard feat for Hulk, then Hulk already surpasses Juggernaut, and Abomination is stronger than base Hulk, so what are we arguing about?

I conceded that they have warp portals. They still need to move considerably faster than any real world spacecraft because they traverse star systems very quickly.

You forgot the part where Thor shouted "More power!" to Rocket while they were pulling the rings.

You're dodging the question. Why and how did the rings freeze in the first place? Also, the Russos' blatantly said that Thor is one of the very few beings in the universe that could perform the feat.

The rings started moving because Thor/Rocket overcame the ice and the static friction. It's like pushing a car; once you get it going it's easy.

The Leviathan feat required less than 1,000 tons of force.

Traveling fast and traveling FTL aren't necessarily the same thing.

None of this matters given the ship's acceleration after Thor threw it to add to its speed. "More power" likely implied a reasonable 1.2 to 3 times increase, since Rocket already knew he had to apply a significant amount of thrust from the start.

So you agree that the rings were trying to move when they were stuck? Because once the ice broke, they started moving instantly - no one pressed a button or activated the rings after the ice broke.

DarkSaint85

Actually I always thought it was the momentum imparted to them which moved the rings.

Like a door that's stuck. I give it a push, it starts moving, and keeps moving until it slams shut.

Nobody sane would argue that the door 'wanted' to move or, conversely , that anyone pushed a button to make it move further.

tkitna

How were the rings trying to move when the entire thing shut down. The ice formed because it's cold in outerspace and the entire mechanism was stagnant for a long period.

What am I missing here? Do the rings still move when everything else is shut down?

DarkSaint85

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
The Leviathan feat required less than 1,000 tons of force.

Traveling fast and traveling FTL aren't necessarily the same thing.

None of this matters given the ship's acceleration after Thor threw it to add to its speed. "More power" likely implied a reasonable 1.2 to 3 times increase, since Rocket already knew he had to apply a significant amount of thrust from the start.

So you agree that the rings were trying to move when they were stuck? Because once the ice broke, they started moving instantly - no one pressed a button or activated the rings after the ice broke.

Based on what? You have no idea what the Leviathan weighed. It's an alien creature, covered in alien metal. There's no way to calculate the force if you're being honest. And that feat was performed by a freshly-transformed Hulk, so Hulk at his weakest. Abomination easily overpowered base Hulk when they met. In fact, he almost KO'd the Hulk with his first attack.

I know, but to traverse a solar system you still need to generate an insane amount of thrust. It would take traveling at over 20% of the speed of light to reach the edge of our solar system in 1 day if you start at the centre. Unless you think the Guardians take months/years to travel between planets in the same system, you have to concede that their ships are capable of reaching relativistic speeds.

The ship had already stopped accelerating when Thor told Rocket to increase the power.

No, I'm saying the opposite. And you still haven't answered why the rings had already been covered in ice when Thor arrived. I'll tell you: it's because the station had no power, the neutron star was sealed and there was no way to move the rings until Thor and Rocket re-ignited the forge by manually moving the rings.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think h1's new angle of attack is that the rings were always going to move of their own accord, they were just stuck in place by ice (lol) which Thor and Rocket broke. Once broken, the rings just 'snapped' into place.

And how that ice formed when the rings were moving is a question he really wants to dodge.

Robtard

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think h1's new angle of attack is that the rings were always going to move of their own accord, they were just stuck in place by ice (lol) which Thor and Rocket broke. Once broken, the rings just 'snapped' into place.

H1 is making things up because he has no real argument again. Eitri tells Thor "You'll have to restart the forge. Awaken the heart of a dying star." Then Rocket who is a literally a science super-genius questions the implausibility of moving rings of that size.

That was another feat of extremely high strength and durability for Thor.

h1a8

Originally posted by tkitna
How were the rings trying to move when the entire thing shut down. The ice formed because it's cold in outerspace and the entire mechanism was stagnant for a long period.

What am I missing here? Do the rings still move when everything else is shut down?

Yet the motor kept turning in circles right after the ice broke. The rings were stuck because of the ice.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Actually I always thought it was the momentum imparted to them which moved the rings.

Like a door that's stuck. I give it a push, it starts moving, and keeps moving until it slams shut.

Nobody sane would argue that the door 'wanted' to move or, conversely , that anyone pushed a button to make it move further.

A door doesn't have a motor. Your analogies are getting worse.

Think of fan blades being held while the fan is on - once you release them, they start moving.

None of this matters, though, since we can clearly see how much acceleration the ship was providing.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet the motor kept turning in circles right after the ice broke. The rings were stuck because of the ice.

A door doesn't have a motor. Your analogies are getting worse.

Think of fan blades being held while the fan is on - once you release them, they start moving.

None of this matters, though, since we can clearly see how much acceleration the ship was providing.

What motor?

I am talking about the rings, as we all (supposedly) were. Where is the motor for this ring?

Edit: also, I thought this fan in your analogy - I thought it had been turned off, in fact, turned off for so long ice/rust had formed on its blades.

So if it had been turned off....and spinning the blades is turning it on..... Simply breaking off the ice/rust/ whatever isn't turning it on, lol

Robtard

H1 doesn't know what he's talking about. The neutron star at the center of the forge is the power source for the forge. Thor had to break the ice, get the massive rings moving to open the massive Dyson sphere covering the star to reignite it, once all that happened, the forge was powering itself from the star's energy. But sure, that seems like an easy feat.

h1a8

So we have:

The rings would have moved if the ice magically disappeared
vs.
The rings would not have moved if the ice magically disappeared.

Exhibit A: The central motor starts spinning the moment the ice breaks. It is shown to spin at a higher frequency than the rings were (i.e., not in one-to-one correspondence). In one scene, the rings appear to start moving seconds after both the ice breaks and the motor begins spinning.

Exhibit B: The acceleration of the rocket, which provided the pulling force, was not significantly large and is visible when Thor isn't anchored to the ring.

Exibit C: The rings seem to have been designed to align and misalign as an intentional control mechanism, allowing the forge to be turned off when not in use and enhancing safety. The way they rotated smoothly back into place suggests a precise, self-regulating design. This could imply that the ship wasn't essential once the ice was broken - perhaps it just helped the rings move a bit faster than they would have naturally. Ultimately, we can't be certain either way.

Exhibit D: Rocket clearly says, "You gonna need something bigger to yank them loose," supporting the plan to free the rings from the ice.

DarkSaint85

Plus Abomination, as per writer's intent, being stronger than Hulk when he's calm.

Psychotron

You have the Russos saying that this is an extraordinary feat that only a handful of beings in the UNIVERSE could have performed, but you still insist on arguing that it was all some central motor that mysteriously got frozen for no reason.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus Abomination, as per writer's intent, being stronger than Hulk when he's calm. Hulk's strength fluctuates due to fiction inconsistency.
Abom is only stronger when Hulk is operating at typical levels.
These are not the comic versions.

Psychotron

Lmao what? Hulk's dynamic strength is a core power of his powerset.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk's strength fluctuates due to fiction inconsistency.
Abom is only stronger when Hulk is operating at typical levels.
These are not the comic versions.

I know they're not, just like I didn't mention Ultimate versions in the movie Vs forum.

Writer intent is not that he's only stronger at typical levels, or average levels, or what have you.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I know they're not, just like I didn't mention Ultimate versions in the movie Vs forum.

Writer intent is not that he's only stronger at typical levels, or average levels, or what have you.

Writer intent doesn't matter here. Otherwise, Colossus would be a planet buster (or at least a mountain range buster) based on the writer's intent that he is a peer to Gladiator, given their prolonged fight. Yet, in a forum debate, most people agree that Colossus is fodder to Gladiator, who could one-shot him, as could Thor with Mjolnir. There are plenty of examples where a writer intends for one character to be a physical peer to another, but scaling a character's outlier feats this way would yield absurd results.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
Writer intent doesn't matter here. Otherwise, Colossus would be a planet buster (or at least a mountain range buster) based on the writer's intent that he is a peer to Gladiator, given their prolonged fight. Yet, in a forum debate, most people agree that Colossus is fodder to Gladiator, who could one-shot him, as could Thor with Mjolnir. There are plenty of examples where a writer intends for one character to be a physical peer to another, but scaling a character's outlier feats this way would yield absurd results.

Originally posted by h1a8
If two people have to debate writer's intent then one is trolling and the discussion should be discontinued. Writer's intent should never have to be debated when it is clear.

I am arguing on the writer's intent, that Abomination is stronger than a base Hulk.

Robtard

It wasn't just intent, it was literally shown on screen. Abm was bigger and stronger. Hulk even makes a cowed face for a few moments knowing he's outclassed by a stronger opponent.

Until Hulk got buttmad over Betty being in danger, then his eyes glowed green, his strength increased, he overpowers ABM and lays down a savage beating.

Anyone arguing otherwise is arguing for the sake of arguing or a retard.

lzIZ6w85Jx8&ab

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am arguing on the writer's intent, that Abomination is stronger than a base Hulk.

You didn't address this

Originally posted by h1a8
Otherwise, Colossus would be a planet buster (or at least a mountain range buster) based on the writer's intent that he is a peer to Gladiator, given their prolonged fight. Yet, in a forum debate, most people agree that Colossus is fodder to Gladiator, who could one-shot him, as could Thor with Mjolnir. There are plenty of examples where a writer intends for one character to be a physical peer to another, but scaling a character's outlier feats this way would yield absurd results.

Psychotron

Gladiator's strength is limited by his confidence. Also, he could have been holding back. It's irrelevant to this discussion. Abom being stronger than base Hulk is both consistent with movies and the comics.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't address this

Oh, because this isn't comics, but the Movie Versus Forum.

I'm going by what is shown on screen, and writer's intent. That he is meant to be, and is, stronger than a base/calm Hulk.

h1a8

Originally posted by Psychotron
Gladiator's strength is limited by his confidence. Also, he could have been holding back. It's irrelevant to this discussion. Abom being stronger than base Hulk is both consistent with movies and the comics.

There's no such thing as "he could have been holding back." These characters don't exist in reality, so the audience would be aware if a character was meant to hold back, especially if it's a villain. The fight was presented as a prolonged, competitive battle. In a forum setting, Gladiator could one-shot Colossus even while holding back.

The Gladiator example is just one of many. Picking apart the example rather than addressing the overall point is nitpicking.

h1a8

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, because this isn't comics, but the Movie Versus Forum.

I'm going by what is shown on screen, and writer's intent. That he is meant to be, and is, stronger than a base/calm Hulk.

By not addressing my point, you concede it. I've explained why scaling characters (even stronger ones) from the highest-end showings of others is flawed. It leads to absurd outcomes and, therefore, cannot be correct.

Additionally, using a character's highest-end feats to set their level in forum debates is simply a convention. It's not obligatory. Anyone can choose to focus on a character's more typical showings and disregard outliers, which shifts the argument to characters scaling only from the standard feats of others.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by h1a8
By not addressing my point, you concede it. I've explained why scaling characters (even stronger ones) from the highest-end showings of others is flawed. It leads to absurd outcomes and, therefore, cannot be correct.

Additionally, using a character's highest-end feats to set their level in forum debates is simply a convention. It's not obligatory. Anyone can choose to focus on a character's more typical showings and disregard outliers, which shifts the argument to characters scaling only from the standard feats of others.

Because my original point still stands, and you in fact conceded it a long time ago and you reiterate in your post - you simply chose to ignore high end feats, as admitted by you.

Thus I have won with my first few contributions to this thread.

Psychotron

Originally posted by h1a8
There's no such thing as "he could have been holding back." These characters don't exist in reality, so the audience would be aware if a character was meant to hold back, especially if it's a villain. The fight was presented as a prolonged, competitive battle. In a forum setting, Gladiator could one-shot Colossus even while holding back.

The Gladiator example is just one of many. Picking apart the example rather than addressing the overall point is nitpicking.

Why are you even using comic examples to argue a movie battle? Abomination was clearly shown to be Hulk's superior in strength in TIH. Hulk needs to seriously ramp up his anger to match Abomination. This is consistent with both the movie and the comics, so you have no argument here.