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Who's the weakest person in Marvel or DC that can withstand this blast and still be awake and functioning after being hit by the attack? No gimmicks here. Pure durability showing, please. Yes, the city was destroyed afterwards...

/EAq5KL4bmKE?si=eYJTq-Brdd99NJtF

Luke Cage or someone on that level

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Luke Cage or someone on that level

He can? Based on what?

I thought it was just survive it, but still be able to fight, maybe not.

OK, so Colossus, Ben Grimm, Namor, Strong Guy etc.

So just to be clear, Carv: what is happening here? I ask not to attack you, but to make sure what the challenge is.

The challenge is to withstand a city level blast and still be awake/functioning afterwards, using pure durability (so no shields or energy manip or absorption etc)?

Yep. Primarily DC and Marvel characters. No gimmicks. Pure durability. No physical damage taken. Still awaken and capable of fighting. No shields, nothing like that.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I thought it was just survive it, but still be able to fight, maybe not.

OK, so Colossus, Ben Grimm, Namor, Strong Guy etc.

I can't see any of these people surving this tbh.

And how big was the city blast? A small city is 50,000 people, Jack Hawksmoor was wearing Tokyo which has 13 million people. So quite a range there (obviously ignoring density of population).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok.

Here is the Terminus staff as used by Jorro:

https://i.postimg.cc/x13bf5vf/RCO015-1475792931.jpg

Destroying a city, right?

Here is Colossus:
http://i.imgur.com/3crRzwA.png

Looking at the video, the blast dwarfed a number of mountains.

Hey Dark... there's no evidence in the scan that you posted that Colossus was hit with city destroying power. I wouldn't say Wolverine withstood Hulk dimension shaking punches from Hulk. It doesn't work like that. Nice showing for Colossus though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If I have a gun that I can prove can shoot through body armor....

Then shoot a guy who tanks it like Colossus.....

Does that not mean that guy is bulletproof? Help me understand. The feat here is from the staff.

Maybe we should go weaker....Spider-man?

https://i.imgur.com/Rjsiqvc.jpeg

Yeah, let's go with Spidey.

Thing:
https://i.imgur.com/xp6oVeC.jpeg

Planet splitting power

You went from still awake to without a scratch.

Lmmfao... Darksaint, you don't believe Spiderman can withstand a city destroying attack. I know you don't. Also, Thing, Colossus, and Luke isn't surviving it either.

I showed the scans.

Iron Man - when not at full power - took four nukes PLUS assorted weaponry hitting him, and his armour took it.

He was at 30 ish % power too. So at 100%, he can take a nuke easy

Hulk has hit Thing many times, with the intent of harming him. Do you think Hulk hits less or more than city destroying level?

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Hulk has hit Thing many times, with the intent of harming him. Do you think Hulk hits less or more than city destroying level?

I dont think Hulk hits Thing with the intent to kill. So the answer is no.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I showed the scans.

Iron Man - when not at full power - took four nukes PLUS assorted weaponry hitting him, and his armour took it.

He was at 30 ish % power too. So at 100%, he can take a nuke easy

Show me.

Also, Firelord was about to destroy a city and Spiderman knew it would kill him. He's not withstanding that kind of power.

I mean Ben Grimm and Colossus are literally just one tier or so down from people who both break planets and have survived far worse and are continuously shown to hang with, or in Things case actually beat the heavy hitters, so I don't see why a little city busting explosion is gonna kill them.

A human sized object is only going to take like .000001% of the force of a massive omnidirectional explosion.

Originally posted by carver9
Show me.

Also, Firelord was about to destroy a city and Spiderman knew it would kill him. He's not withstanding that kind of power.

Everyone has high low PIS showings.

Your thread didn't ask for that though.

Iron man's feat is on his respect thread, or you can read Iron Man Director of Shield #31 and #32.

Wolverine and Spidey knew that his neck could be broken. Yet you don't seem to accept that.

Originally posted by carver9
I dont think Hulk hits Thing with the intent to kill. So the answer is no.

Galactus was hitting Thing with a planetary scale attack. So the answer is yes.

Originally posted by carver9
Looking at the video, the blast dwarfed a number of mountains.

The size, particularly the vertical size, of an energy blast is irrelevant to its destructive power.

A blast's destructive power should be determined by the duration and extent to which it destroys an object of known durability.

I believe you are equating the size of the blast with its destructive potential if all that energy were concentrated to the size of a humanoid. For example, sunlight can be focused through a magnifying lens to create a smaller, more destructive beam of light.

So context:

Paladin had just taken out Tony's armour, and he was at 2% power:
https://i.ibb.co/sjP8LSP/RCO019-1664307632.jpg

He rebooted, got back up to 38% power:
https://i.ibb.co/GxJGs9z/RCO028-1664307632.jpg

Then flies around, fighting bad guys, the usual Iron Man stuff. Goes after the bad guy, whilst at the same time the Helicarrier had been hacked. The Helicarrier:
https://i.ibb.co/T4CqHZW/RCO043-1664307632.jpg

Note the third panel. Full N-B-C complement on board - nuclear/biological/chemical weapons, including 4 nukes.

Tony flies to the bad guy (remember he started at 38%, so is probably around 30% at this time). They crash the helicarrier into the bad guy:
https://i.ibb.co/2hZBZFf/RCO062-1664307632.jpg

He takes it - note how he specifically says his armour protects him from the blast:
https://i.ibb.co/QNvs4st/RCO064-1664307632.jpg
He needs to be helped on board, but was still conscious:
https://i.ibb.co/SdK3jGq/RCO066-1664307632.jpg

TL;DR: Tony at 30% took an entire Helicarrier PLUS its weaponry (including 4 nukes) and was still walking after. Aided walking, sure, but a single nuke (like in OP) and at 100%? He'd survive that, and would still be awake and functioning afterwards. No gimmicks, pure armour.

So High Meta level.

Here Professor Hulk and Thing get hit by a nuke point blank, and don't even notice it:
https://i.imgur.com/UrUd64Z.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/W8wZ7cz.jpeg

So High Meta tier seems about right.

This blast is obviously bigger than a Nuke.

Originally posted by carver9
This blast is obviously bigger than a Nuke.

Collateral damage?

Also, remember Iron Man's feat. He took on Four nukes, PLUS a Helicarrier, plus the other weapons, whilst not at full power. If you want to argue collateral damage, a Helicarrier has knocked out a trans level being before - they're powerful.

Not just collateral damage. It melted everything in its vicinity which gives us an indication on how powerful the attack was. When did Ironman tank four nukes?

Originally posted by carver9
Not just collateral damage. It melted everything in its vicinity which gives us an indication on how powerful the attack was. When did Ironman tank four nukes?

Lol you are literally using collateral damage, by looking at the vicinity.

Literally posted the scans above. At 30 ish % power.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, let's go with Spidey.

It doesn't look like Tony was at the center of the nuclear explosion.

Originally posted by carver9
It doesn't look like Tony was at the center of the nuclear explosion.

He was also at 30%, and there were 4 nukes, and a Helicarrier (which takes Sentry out on its own), and chemical/biological weapons (plus normal weapons).

So being at the centre of one nuke, when at full capacity, would be fine for him.

Squirrel Girl.

Debating collateral damage in DB is pointless.

For example, Piccolo tried to kill Raditz with one of his most powerful attacks, and it caused virtually no collateral damage at all:
https://ibb.co/ns40YbX
https://ibb.co/R6C3W5X
https://ibb.co/2s6hDCh

Fast-forward a few days in the story, and Piccolo used the same type of blast to vape the moon:
https://ibb.co/X3Hx8LS
https://ibb.co/qRty6qR

So we might be able to assume that Raditz tanked something akin to a moon-buster, collateral damage be damned.


In other words, the size of the attack...and the collateral damage it causes...is never a good measuring stick to use(especially in this medium.) These are characters who have a very precise/refined degree of control over their ki, and can effectively condense their energy attack(s) into a very small area in order to avoid excessive collateral damage, yet still retain the attack's full potency. If collateral damage were the end-all/be-all, then a few characters from OG DB/DBZ would still be among the franchise's elite... But that just ain't how it works.


That being said, King Piccolo's Demon Wave(*see carv's clip*) might have 'only' appeared nuke-like from a collateral standpoint, but it's also possible that it packed much more of a wallop than that. After all, his power-level was considerably above Roshi's, and Roshi was already a moon-buster back then. Just food for thought.

Yeah that's why I asked Carv at the very start what was happening in the clip.

Without knowing what's happening (even from the OP ) his thread is pointless. It's a big explosion - many comic characters have survived similar.

If you just watch carv's clip, then the attack looks nuke-level(Brit would get my vote on that one, btw)... But if we assume that the potency behind said attack could have been in the moon-busting tier(which is possible, given how scaling works in DB), then the list of characters who can outright tank it shortens quite a bit.

Originally posted by Galan007
Debating collateral damage in DB is pointless.

For example, Piccolo tried to kill Raditz with one of his most powerful attacks, and it caused virtually no collateral damage at all:
https://ibb.co/ns40YbX
https://ibb.co/R6C3W5X
https://ibb.co/2s6hDCh

Fast-forward a few days in the story, and Piccolo used the same type of blast to vape the moon:
https://ibb.co/X3Hx8LS
https://ibb.co/qRty6qR

So we might be able to assume that Raditz tanked something akin to a moon-buster, collateral damage be damned.


In other words, the size of the attack...and the collateral damage it causes...is never a good measuring stick to use(especially in this medium.) These are characters who have a very precise/refined degree of control over their ki, and can effectively condense their energy attack(s) into a very small area in order to avoid excessive collateral damage, yet still retain the attack's full potency. If collateral damage were the end-all/be-all, then a few characters from OG DB/DBZ would still be among the franchise's elite... But that just ain't how it works.


That being said, King Piccolo's Demon Wave(*see carv's clip*) might have 'only' appeared nuke-like from a collateral standpoint, but it's also possible that it packed much more of a wallop than that. After all, his power-level was considerably above Roshi's, and Roshi was already a moon-buster back then. Just food for thought.

Amazing post. I didn't even think about this. Dark, don't add to this statement. Thanks

I'm still surprised till this date of Raditz standing there without even flinching at Piccolo attack.

Originally posted by Galan007


If you just watch carv's clip, then the attack looks nuke-level(Brit would get my vote on that one, btw)... But if we assume that the potency behind said attack could have been in the moon-busting tier(which is possible, given how scaling works in DB), then the list of characters who can outright tank it shortens quite a bit.

Brit is neither Marvel nor DC, noob

But interesting that debating collateral damage is useless in DBZ as well. So where does Carv get it from? I always thought he had his brain rotted from DBZ.

Lmmfao... i don't debate collateral damage.

Originally posted by carver9
Looking at the video, the blast dwarfed a number of mountains.

Interesting.

Edit:

Originally posted by carver9


Originally posted by carver9
This blast is obviously bigger than a Nuke.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, Firelord was about to destroy a city and Spiderman knew it would kill him. He's not withstanding that kind of power.

Originally posted by carver9
Lmmfao... Darksaint, you don't believe Spiderman can withstand a city destroying attack.

Originally posted by carver9
Hey Dark... there's no evidence in the scan that you posted that Colossus was hit with city destroying power. I

Very interesting.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I thought it was just survive it, but still be able to fight, maybe not.

OK, so Colossus, Ben Grimm, Namor, Strong Guy etc.

Cage actually has greater overall durability than all of those guys though!

Originally posted by Stoic
Cage actually has greater overall durability than all of those guys though! o

Like when? Honestly not doubting you, the thread needs more scans!

Originally posted by Galan007
Debating collateral damage in DB is pointless.

For example, Piccolo tried to kill Raditz with one of his most powerful attacks, and it caused virtually no collateral damage at all:
https://ibb.co/ns40YbX
https://ibb.co/R6C3W5X
https://ibb.co/2s6hDCh

Fast-forward a few days in the story, and Piccolo used the same type of blast to vape the moon:
https://ibb.co/X3Hx8LS
https://ibb.co/qRty6qR

So we might be able to assume that Raditz tanked something akin to a moon-buster, collateral damage be damned.


In other words, the size of the attack...and the collateral damage it causes...is never a good measuring stick to use(especially in this medium.) These are characters who have a very precise/refined degree of control over their ki, and can effectively condense their energy attack(s) into a very small area in order to avoid excessive collateral damage, yet still retain the attack's full potency. If collateral damage were the end-all/be-all, then a few characters from OG DB/DBZ would still be among the franchise's elite... But that just ain't how it works.


That being said, King Piccolo's Demon Wave(*see carv's clip*) might have 'only' appeared nuke-like from a collateral standpoint, but it's also possible that it packed much more of a wallop than that. After all, his power-level was considerably above Roshi's, and Roshi was already a moon-buster back then. Just food for thought. never got how a blast can have moon, or planet, or galaxy destroying "potency" without actually causing a huge amount of collateral damage?

This applies to comics as well tbh. Example, Galactus exhausting his power on Thanos shields and the room still be intact. Galactud fighting a Celestial on a planetpid right by the Fantastic Four and even killing one and nothing happening to the surrounding area or the fantastic Four.

Originally posted by carver9
. Yes, the city was destroyed afterwards...


Collateral damage? In the OP?

The city was destroyed. I agree with Galan post, though.

Originally posted by carver9
The city was destroyed. I agree with Galan post, though.

So? The city being destroyed doesn't mean much as per Galan's post which you agree on.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
never got how a blast can have moon, or planet, or galaxy destroying "potency" without actually causing a huge amount of collateral damage? Fiction.

Same way Molecule Man can unleash a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions inside of his apartment, without even scuffing his sofa.

Same way MUI Goku's all-out Kamehameha didn't even destroy a small chunk of the tournament ring, but was still enough to put FP Jiren down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dcV4Z2eFUI&t=31m50s

*Bear in mind that Jiren literally wouldn't even register a moon-buster from Roshi, or a planet-buster from Saiyan saga Vegeta, or a solar system-buster from SPC, etc. etc.


So yeah, the amount/scale of collateral damage an energy attack causes in DB is most definitely not always a reliable indicator of the attack's potency.

100% it's just fiction these things happen all the time.

So without really knowing how much energy is being outputted, it's kinda impossible to answer the OP.

Apart from Spidey tanking the Ultimate Nullifier.

Pretty much.

The attack could have been anywhere from nuke-level, to moon-level in potency... which is obviously a vast difference.

The only evidence that it might have been closer to the latter is the fact that generating the attack seemed to tax KP a bit afterward, iirc. Given that his PL puts him solidly in the moon-busting tier, a simple nuke-esque attack shouldn't have really depleted his ki much at all.

...but even then it's still a guessing game.

Originally posted by Galan007
Pretty much.

The attack could have been anywhere from nuke-level, to moon-level in potency... which is obviously a vast difference.

The only evidence that it might have been closer to the latter is the fact that generating the attack seemed to tax KP a bit afterward, iirc. Given that his PL puts him solidly in the moon-busting tier, a simple nuke-esque attack shouldn't have really depleted his ki much at all.

...but even then it's still a guessing game.

Assuming nuke level, who (Marvel/DC) would you have?

Assuming moon level, who?

Plenty of characters have survived nuke-level explosions, but maybe someone like Luke Cage for the 'weakest'?

Soaking a moon-buster with pure durability is an entirely different animal, though. That would take someone at least in the mid-herald range, imo.

For sure. A nuke explosion isn't that powerful even compared to mother nature.

I wonder who would be crushed if buried underground during a massive earthquake or jumping into an exploding volcano.

Cage being Mid meta tier and the characters I named being high meta tier seems about right for that feat.

Show me Cage wkthstanding anything like that. Also, most Heralds run from nukes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fiction.

Same way Molecule Man can unleash a blast capable of destroying billions of dimensions inside of his apartment, without even scuffing his sofa.

Same way MUI Goku's all-out Kamehameha didn't even destroy a small chunk of the tournament ring, but was still enough to put FP Jiren down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dcV4Z2eFUI&t=31m50s

*Bear in mind that Jiren literally wouldn't even register a moon-buster from Roshi, or a planet-buster from Saiyan saga Vegeta, or a solar system-buster from SPC, etc. etc.


So yeah, the amount/scale of collateral damage an energy attack causes in DB is most definitely not always a reliable indicator of the attack's potency. but like i said- if one blast can wipe out the moon, then why wouldn't the exact same kind of blast from a stronger person produce even more collateral damage? that's what has never made sense to me.,

^ I already addressed this...
Originally posted by Galan007
These are characters who have a very precise/refined degree of control over their ki, and can effectively condense their energy attack(s) into a very small area in order to avoid excessive collateral damage, yet still retain the attack's full potency. Originally posted by Galan007
Fiction.

But to put it more simply: which is the more powerful attack, iyo?
a.) An all-out Kamehameha from OG Roshi(PL=139), which was enough to destroy the moon.
b.) An all-out Kamehameha from MUI Goku, which only left a very small crater in a very small chunk of the tournament ring, yet was still powerful enough to drop FP Jiren(who is literally billionS of times more powerful than Roshi.)

If your answer is 'a', then it means you think Roshi's moon-buster > Jiren (lol?) If your answer is 'b', then you are correct and understand what I mean by the "attack potency" within a condensed area, and therefore understand why arguing over collateral damage(or lack thereof) is typically pointless in DB.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I already addressed this...


But to put it more simply: which is the more powerful attack, iyo?
a.) An all-out Kamehameha from OG Roshi(PL=139), which was enough to destroy the moon.
b.) An all-out Kamehameha from MUI Goku, which only left a very small crater in a very small chunk of the tournament ring, yet was still powerful enough to drop FP Jiren(who is literally billionS of times more powerful than Roshi.)

If your answer is 'a', then it means you think Roshi's moon-buster > Jiren (lol?) If your answer is 'b', then you are correct and understand what I mean by the "attack potency" within a condensed area, and therefore understand why arguing over collateral damage(or lack thereof) is typically pointless in DB.
Or Dragon ball is just inconsistent and doesn't has linear scaling. Case in point the farmer with shotgun has a power level of 5, is he 1/30 moon level?

But it's clear evidence that power level=power output. We see that when Goku and Vegeta beams clash and Goku wins because he was more powerful. Or when Gohan and Cell beams clashed and Gohan easily overpowers it because he is more powerful. It's consistent and it happens all of the time. By the way, this attack would kill everyone on DC and Marvel earth...

/2AHDzzTOxc0?si=s4Kc7ycRASJgVy3c

Also, why are you comparing DB humans to comics and regular humans? You do know Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha are human, right? Heck, we've seen humans in DB throw around 10 ton boulders like they are nothing.

So is that shotgun 1/30 moon busting?

Originally posted by carver9
But it's clear evidence that power level=power output. We see that when Goku and Vegeta beams clash and Goku wins because he was more powerful. Or when Gohan and Cell beams clashed and Gohan easily overpowers it because he is more powerful. It's consistent and it happens all of the time. By the way, this attack would kill everyone on DC and Marvel earth...

/2AHDzzTOxc0?si=s4Kc7ycRASJgVy3c Originally posted by carver9
Also, why are you comparing DB humans to comics and regular humans? You do know Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha are human, right? Heck, we've seen humans in DB throw around 10 ton boulders like they are nothing.
Better to keep your mouth shut if you don't know anything.

Or can we extrapolate everything from a lower level character in DC and Marvel too? That will be fun.

For example, Darkseid's energy was seen from yottaparsecs away.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://ibb.co/JsmXwsN

The energy released at the death of Darkseid was seen yottaparsecs away.

"A yottaparsec is a unit of measurement combining the prefix yotta- and the measurement parsec. It is 3.08567758e+40 meters long or 1.01236141e+41 feet. It is 70,142,654,600,000 times longer than the radius of the Observable Universe. 1 yottaparsec is approximately equal to 3.086e+64 yoctometers. "

Just to give an idea how big that distance is.

Can we extrapolate from that?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So is that shotgun 1/30 moon busting?

The shotgun wasn't measured, just the guy.

Originally posted by abhilegend
For example, Darkseid's energy was seen from yottaparsecs away.



"A yottaparsec is a unit of measurement combining the prefix yotta- and the measurement parsec. It is 3.08567758e+40 meters long or 1.01236141e+41 feet. It is 70,142,654,600,000 times longer than the radius of the Observable Universe. 1 yottaparsec is approximately equal to 3.086e+64 yoctometers. "

Just to give an idea how big that distance is.

Why are you impressed with this when Dragonball characters energy is so powerful that it can be felt across the universe into other dimensions?

Originally posted by carver9
The shotgun wasn't measured, just the guy.

So it's a normal shotgun. Even better.

Originally posted by carver9
Why are you impressed with this when Dragonball characters energy is so powerful that it can be felt across the universe into other dimensions?

Abhi about to post that creepy Mahnke art of Luthor and Superman's energy being felt across dimensions....

Originally posted by carver9
Why are you impressed with this when Dragonball characters energy is so powerful that it can be felt across the universe into other dimensions?
You mean like this?

https://i.ibb.co/0hYqWc2/20240918-090908.jpgOriginally posted by DarkSaint85
So it's a normal shotgun. Even better.



Abhi about to post that creepy Mahnke art of Luthor and Superman's energy being felt across dimensions....
😅😅😅

Originally posted by abhilegend
Or Dragon ball is just inconsistent and doesn't has linear scaling. Eh, I have never argued that DB uses linear scaling... Quite the opposite, actually. All PLs and tier placement really do is give us a simple way to help scale the characters.

ie. OG Roshi can destroy the moon with max-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 139 can do the same(assuming they can produce high-level energy attacks, obvs)... Because that's just how it works in DB.

-Same thing with Saiyan saga Vegeta being able to destroy planets with high-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 18k can do the same.
-Same thing with 1st form Freeza being able to destroy planets with no-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 530k can do the same.
-etc. etc. etc. (and don't even get me started on God-level power.)

IOW, if a character has a PL of 1m, we don't need to see them effortlessly destroy a planet on-panel/screen to know they still can(even in the absence of collaterally significant feats)... Nor do we need to see them fight someone with a PL of 500k to know they would literally no-sell every single one of the weaker character's attacks(Cell, for example, wouldn't even flinch at an all-out blast from Namek-era Freeza.) It's not always the collateral scale of the attack that matters -- it's about the potency the attack contains within a given area.

Toriyama at least made power-scaling very easy to understand in that respect.

Originally posted by carver9
Show me Cage wkthstanding anything like that. Also, most Heralds run from nukes.

Galan wouldn't dare respond to this, the coward
https://y.yarn.co/e455c327-fb6e-4829-b6aa-e742cc813c7c_text.gif

https://y.yarn.co/c42da8c9-1df1-4b19-989e-a9ea400f4c0a_text.gif

Agreed Galan. Vegeta had to power down so that Krillin who had planetary power at the time could hurt him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So it's a normal shotgun. Even better.



Abhi about to post that creepy Mahnke art of Luthor and Superman's energy being felt across dimensions....

But anyone with a brain knows that's not what that scan means. So he posted it for nothing.

Also, no to your comment about the shot gun.

It was a bolt action rifle, true. Not a shotgun

I dont care what it was. Scouters don't read weapons, it reads kai energy. All humans and animals have it, they just need to train to bring it to surface.

Oh damn, so just 30 normal overweight middle-aged humans with no clothes on etc, can blow the moon up in DBZ. Without special training.

No, lmmfao... only beings with a power level over 100, and yes, if that human actually train and know how to use their kai energy. Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all started off as humans that trained to be some of the strongest beings on the planet. So yes, with hard work, your average human can become planet busters.

Regular human tossing this (Yajirobe)...

https://i.ibb.co/j3H1QL2/mMufjH4.jpg
upload pic

He even survived a car exploding on him while he was cloud height and was still awake without a scratch...

https://i.ibb.co/gy4fLpW/3KfpTFs.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/gtQXw4b/xMYITYp.jpg

And this is with borderline good training...

So without training, 30 random tubby middle-aged guys can destroy the moon?

I mean, its either consistent or its not.

Roshi is PL = 139. Y/N?
Nofu the ostrich farmer is PL = 5, Y/N?

139/5 = ~28, Y/N?

So 28 normal human ostrich farmers can destroy the Moon, without needing any special training or equipment.

Unless it's NOT linear/scaled.

Why are you putting 30 powered men together, that's not how DB works, lmmfao. 50 men with a powerlevel of 750k can't even scratch a man with a power level of 1 mill. That's how this works.

Originally posted by carver9
Why are you putting 30 powered men together, that's not how DB works, lmmfao. 50 men with a powerlevel of 750k can't even scratch a man with a power level of 1 mill. That's how this works.

So abhi is right and it isn't linear and doesn't scale. Thanks.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Or Dragon ball is just inconsistent and doesn't has linear scaling. Case in point the farmer with shotgun has a power level of 5, is he 1/30 moon level?

Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, I have never argued that DB uses linear scaling... Quite the opposite, actually. All PLs and tier placement really do is give us a simple way to help scale the characters.

Sounds like Carver just....doesn't understand and simply argues against everything he sees other people post, lmao.

Glad I helped you understand abhi's post, carvy!

You guys watch, Carver simply cannot admit that he was wrong about abhi, and wlll attempt to argue it IS linear and scales, lmao.

Yeah, PLs do not work linearly in DB... And you don't even have to go the energy attack route to realize that.

Lets use Mercenary Tao as an example. His Cyborg form is credited with a PL of 210, and was said to be much stronger than his human form... So we'll be generous and assume that human form Tao had a PL of 200.

That said, the guy casually threw a large stone pillar 2,300km/1,429mi in a very short amount of time(he said it would be faster than taking an airplane, and that he'd be back in 30mins):
https://ibb.co/6r9H1TK
https://ibb.co/BjxHVqM
https://ibb.co/2jM8BQ9
https://ibb.co/17TR3N3


There are entire pages dedicated to calc'ing all aspects of that feat, but that's irrelevant here. The point is that if you assume the average adult earthling's PL=5, then it would take 40 people to 'match' Tao's PL. However, 40 people...even working together...still aren't replicating that feat. Not even remotely close.

We just wish as fat middle aged guys that enough of us can blow up the moon

Turn into a fictional character and you can.

Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, I have never argued that DB uses linear scaling... Quite the opposite, actually. All PLs and tier placement really do is give us a simple way to help scale the characters.

ie. OG Roshi can destroy the moon with max-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 139 can do the same(assuming they can produce high-level energy attacks, obvs)... Because that's just how it works in DB.

-Same thing with Saiyan saga Vegeta being able to destroy planets with high-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 18k can do the same.
-Same thing with 1st form Freeza being able to destroy planets with no-diff. This means anyone with a PL =/> 530k can do the same.
-etc. etc. etc. (and don't even get me started on God-level power.)

IOW, if a character has a PL of 1m, we don't need to see them effortlessly destroy a planet on-panel/screen to know they still can(even in the absence of collaterally significant feats)... Nor do we need to see them fight someone with a PL of 500k to know they would literally no-sell every single one of the weaker character's attacks(Cell, for example, wouldn't even flinch at an all-out blast from Namek-era Freeza.) It's not always the collateral scale of the attack that matters -- it's about the potency the attack contains within a given area.

Toriyama at least made power-scaling very easy to understand in that respect.
That doesn't always works in DBZ, by scaling nowadays DB characters should be universal/multiversal but as recently as Moro arc had Moro threaten to destroy the galaxy and that was supposed to be a big deal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That doesn't always works in DBZ, by scaling nowadays DB characters should be universal/multiversal but as recently as Moro arc had Moro threaten to destroy the galaxy and that was supposed to be a big deal.

Get it right. His DEATH was about to destroy a Galaxy. Superman death didn't even destroy a building.

Not that collateral damage matters

Originally posted by carver9
Get it right. His DEATH was about to destroy a Galaxy. Superman death didn't even destroy a building.
Not his death, the release of all energy he had.

https://i.ibb.co/2MbJTFk/multi-galaxy-at-best-pathetic-v0-q1ptyocfr14e1.jpg

Superman would probably just absorb it all. Probably.

He did it against Mageddon, who had antisun energy in him.

Originally posted by carver9
Turn into a fictional character and you can.
So you're saying fictional humans can do things no RL human can?

You're welcome. I just can't stop winning against you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman would probably just absorb it all. Probably.

He did it against Mageddon, who had antisun energy in him.
So did Thor lol.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That doesn't always works in DBZ, by scaling nowadays DB characters should be universal/multiversal but as recently as Moro arc had Moro threaten to destroy the galaxy and that was supposed to be a big deal. Uhuh, but as I said:
Originally posted by Galan007
It's not always the collateral scale of the attack that matters -- it's about the potency the attack contains within a given area.


The Moro scene is really no different than Semi-Perfect Cell's detonation in that respect:
https://i.ibb.co/9ZbfXSx/Dragon-Ball-Z-v19-054.jpg

Given that we know:
Semi-Perfect Cell >> Imperfect Cell >> #17 > SS1 Vegeta(early Android arc) > SS1 Goku(Namek arc) > 4th form Freeza >>>>>>>> 1st form Freeza(a casual planet-buster)

...Do you really think the potency of Cell's detonation 'only' capped at planet-level?


OR we can also refer back to SS2 Majin Vegeta's kamikaze detonation in the Boo arc: Vegeta released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process) to try and destroy Boo, yet it ultimately just left a massive crater on the battlefield:
https://ibb.co/w6XH1C5
https://ibb.co/1n3JD2Y
https://ibb.co/nMDZqs6
https://ibb.co/HBHthkc

...Do you really think the potency of Vegeta's detonation 'only' capped at nuke-level?


If your answers to the above are 'no', then why wouldn't the same logic also apply to the Moro scene? ie. The range/scale of his imminent detonation may have 'only' been galaxy-level, but the potency within that area may have been vastly beyond that.

Because like you mentioned: the anime and manga have both established that even when two n00b-SSG level opponents fight(Beerus was suppressing himself down to Goku's level), it can result in the destruction of the entire universe:
https://ibb.co/NpWPdq5

...And Angel-Moro is literally hundredS/thousandS of times beyond n00b-SSG level.



tl;dr
Like I keep reiterating: in the world of DB, the amount of collateral damage an attack causes is not always indicative of the attack's true power/potency within a designated area... Hence, again, why the Kamehameha that MUI Goku used to drop Jiren is >g_infinity the Kamehameha that OG Roshi used to destroy the moon(despite the latter causing FAR more collateral damage than the former.)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Galan wouldn't dare respond to this, the coward
https://y.yarn.co/e455c327-fb6e-4829-b6aa-e742cc813c7c_text.gif

https://y.yarn.co/c42da8c9-1df1-4b19-989e-a9ea400f4c0a_text.gif

Originally posted by Galan007
Uhuh, but as I said:



The Moro scene is really no different than Semi-Perfect Cell's detonation in that respect:
https://i.ibb.co/9ZbfXSx/Dragon-Ball-Z-v19-054.jpg

Given that we know:
Semi-Perfect Cell >> Imperfect Cell >> #17 > SS1 Vegeta(early Android arc) > SS1 Goku(Namek arc) > 4th form Freeza >>>>>>>> 1st form Freeza(a casual planet-buster)

...Do you really think the potency of Cell's detonation 'only' capped at planet-level?


OR we can also refer back to SS2 Majin Vegeta's kamikaze detonation in the Boo arc: Vegeta released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process) to try and destroy Boo, yet it ultimately just left a massive crater on the battlefield:
https://ibb.co/w6XH1C5
https://ibb.co/1n3JD2Y
https://ibb.co/nMDZqs6
https://ibb.co/HBHthkc

...Do you really think the potency of Vegeta's detonation 'only' capped at nuke-level?


If your answers to the above are 'no', then why wouldn't the same logic also apply to the Moro scene? ie. The range/scale of his imminent detonation may have 'only' been galaxy-level, but the potency within that area may have been vastly beyond that.

Because like you mentioned: the anime and manga have both established that even when two n00b-SSG level opponents fight(Beerus was suppressing himself down to Goku's level), it can result in the destruction of the entire universe:
https://ibb.co/NpWPdq5

...And Angel-Moro is literally hundredS/thousandS of times beyond n00b-SSG level.



tl;dr
Like I keep reiterating: in the world of DB, the amount of collateral damage an attack causes is not always indicative of the attack's true power/potency within a designated area... Hence, again, why the Kamehameha that MUI Goku used to drop Jiren is >g_infinity the Kamehameha that OG Roshi used to destroy the moon(despite the latter causing FAR more collateral damage than the former.) good post.

so by "attack potency" youre basically saying that a blast that just looks nuke level from the outside can actually have planet level power (or whatever) inside of that zone, right? i get that, but doesnt that also mean large scale showings of collateral damage basically count for nothing then?

Large scale collateral damage would have - at a minimum - that level.

So a planet destroying attack could well be a solar system level one, I.e.its not limited to planets. But it's not a city level attack.

I took can chime in!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Galan wouldn't dare respond to this, the coward
https://y.yarn.co/e455c327-fb6e-4829-b6aa-e742cc813c7c_text.gif

https://y.yarn.co/c42da8c9-1df1-4b19-989e-a9ea400f4c0a_text.gif carv might be right on that one.

I thought I remembered Cage soaking a nuke or somesuch... But now I can't recall the amount of damage it actually caused to him, and hell, it might've(?) even been an alt. universe version for all I know.

srug

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
so by "attack potency" youre basically saying that a blast that just looks nuke level from the outside can actually have planet level power (or whatever) inside of that zone, right? i get that, but doesnt that also mean large scale showings of collateral damage basically count for nothing then? More or less.

This might help to further illustrate my point when it comes to attack potency...

Pure Boo fires an attack that would have destroyed earth, but Vegeta was able to block it:
https://ibb.co/q0hf0B1
https://ibb.co/PrTK1hN
"He tried to blow up the earth without warning... Good save, Vegeta."

Immediately afterward, Pure Boo launches a far more potent earth-buster, which Goku/Vegeta weren't powerful enough to block:
https://ibb.co/2W77N7R
https://ibb.co/DC5wp3Y
"We can't deflect that!! Boo, stop!!! Please!!! You'll destroy the earth!!!"

IOW, both of Boo's attacks were 'only' planet-level in terms of collateral scale... One just packed a LOT more power/potency than the other.


And no, in some cases grandiose displays/implications of collateral damage can at least help give us a fairly reliable benchmark as to what PL/tier is required to preform certain caliber of feats. ie. two n00b-SSG level characters clashing can destroy the universe, SPC's Kamehameha can destroy the solar system, 1st form Freeza can effortlessly destroy planets, OG Roshi can destroy the moon. etc. etc.

Krillin, for example, has never actually destroyed a moon or planet on-panel/screen. However, his PL(coupled with the ability to produce high-level energy attacks) is all the proof we need to know that he was absolutely capable of moon-busting during the Saiyan saga, and planet-busting during the Namek arc... Because that's just how DB maths typically work across the board.

But at the same time, if Namek arc Krillin hit an opponent with his most powerful/all-out Kamehameha, and it caused very little damage to their surroundings(*see the Piccolo vs. Raditz example I posted earlier*), we could still assume that it contained planet-busting+ potency, but was simply localized within a relatively small area. Remember: collateral damage, while sometimes meaningful, is most definitely not always the "final boss" when it comes to determining how strong an energy attack actually is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not his death, the release of all energy he had.

https://i.ibb.co/2MbJTFk/multi-galaxy-at-best-pathetic-v0-q1ptyocfr14e1.jpg

"Killing Moro". What does killing mean to you?

It even say, "beyond that". At least you're trying. Doomsday death on the moon didn't even leave a crack.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman would probably just absorb it all. Probably.

He did it against Mageddon, who had antisun energy in him.

Yeah, he did it while standing in one spot, grabbing it, and absorbing it?

Yep, that's exactly the same as being hit dead on with a Galaxy destroying blast. You're so smart.

Originally posted by carver9
Yeah, he did it while standing in one spot, grabbing it, and absorbing it?

Yep, that's exactly the same as being hit dead on with a Galaxy destroying blast. You're so smart.

It's antisunlight. It's arguably even more impressive as well because he's absorbing it all into himself, rather than being hit by a massive blast.

For example, look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki. There were trees that survived the nuclear bombs - no one would say they were hit with the full force of the bomb, but a tiny percentage of the energy (as it was spread out).

But I guess you're back to your 'i must try and argue against DS because I need something to massage my fragile ego after being owned repeatedly' lol.

Originally posted by carver9
"Killing Moro". What does killing mean to you?

It even say, "beyond that". At least you're trying. Doomsday death on the moon didn't even leave a crack.


So back to collateral damage. What an idiot

Originally posted by carver9
"Killing Moro". What does killing mean to you?

It even say, "beyond that". At least you're trying. Doomsday death on the moon didn't even leave a crack.
Not really, it says "beyond that, his *swollen energy will detonate*...possibly obliterating the entire galaxy"

The sequence of reading dialog balloons is from right to left and up to down in manga

@Dark

He stood there and absorbed it. He had time to concentrate on a task whereas thats completely different than being hit dead on by a greater than Galaxy destroying attack. All you're doing is trolling to get a reaction out of me. The rest of your comments involving this will be ignored.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Not really, it says "beyond that, his *swollen energy will detonate*...possibly obliterating the entire galaxy"

The sequence of reading dialog balloons is from right to left and up to down in manga


I'm seeing beyond that which correlates with the destruction of his death.

dear lord qwerty is right - although I think the mistake is due to Carver's inability to read manga.

Abhi is right again - when Moro dies, the sum total of all of the energy contained within his body would swell and then detonate, destroying the galaxy.

Yes, destroy the GALAXY when he DIES. Lol... Even LT death didn't do anything close to this.

Originally posted by carver9
@Dark

He stood there and absorbed it. He had time to concentrate on a task whereas thats completely different than being hit dead on by a greater than Galaxy destroying attack. All you're doing is trolling to get a reaction out of me. The rest of your comments involving this will be ignored.

But that's my point.

A galaxy destroying attack, when spread out over a galaxy, would be tiny at the level of a human. Just like a nuke, when detonated, is relatively tiny at the level of a single tree.

On TOP of that, it was energy that is specifically poisonous to him. You're a Wolverine fan - remember Maverick? He had an acid that was specifically anti HF. Imagine if Wolverine absorbed an entire city's worth of acid. That would be crazy as a feat.

Imagine he absorbed enough acid to cover the entire state of Washington. Enough to cover the globe.

That's why it's crazy. Moreover, at you trying to make out like he had loads of time - he did it in less than ten minutes. And again, it was anti-sunlight.

I'm not talking about that, Saint. You can answer my other question though.

A more powerful version of Superman ran from a Nuke. I doubt he is just standing there tanking galaxy busting attacks, lol...


https://i.ibb.co/sW3JvzJ/4390065-6086980624-43802.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/8YK7YhH/4390066-4363176573-43802.jpg

Low showings. Got ya

Maybe I should stoop to your level? Nah. That's idiotic.

Hey, you want me to believe Supes can tank Galaxy busting power off of a single showing. There's a lot of these type of scans by the way. A LOT.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm seeing beyond that which correlates with the destruction of his death.
It means when Moro is killed, aside from destroying the Earth, his energy will detonate. And the detonated energy can potentially destroy the entire galaxy

"Killing Moro will mean destroying the Earth itself."

"And beyond that(I.E, aside from destroying Earth), his swollen energy will detonate....possibly obliterating the entire galaxy"

https://i.ibb.co/2MbJTFk/multi-galaxy-at-best-pathetic-v0-q1ptyocfr14e1.jpg

The only way I think you would have misinterpreted these sentences will be you somehow read the sequence of dialogue wrong
https://i.ibb.co/tYZ3fCq/7.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
It means when Moro is killed, aside from destroying the Earth, his energy will detonate. And the detonated energy can potentially destroy the entire galaxy

"Killing Moro will mean destroying the Earth itself."

"And beyond that(I.E, aside from destroying Earth), his swollen energy will detonate....possibly obliterating the entire galaxy"

https://i.ibb.co/2MbJTFk/multi-galaxy-at-best-pathetic-v0-q1ptyocfr14e1.jpg

The only way I think you would have misinterpreted these sentences will be you somehow read the sequence of dialogue wrong
https://i.ibb.co/tYZ3fCq/7.jpg

Yoire right about it going beyond Galaxy level when looking at it like that. I concede on that. Nice post.

Originally posted by Galan007
Uhuh, but as I said:



The Moro scene is really no different than Semi-Perfect Cell's detonation in that respect:
https://i.ibb.co/9ZbfXSx/Dragon-Ball-Z-v19-054.jpg

Given that we know:
Semi-Perfect Cell >> Imperfect Cell >> #17 > SS1 Vegeta(early Android arc) > SS1 Goku(Namek arc) > 4th form Freeza >>>>>>>> 1st form Freeza(a casual planet-buster)

...Do you really think the potency of Cell's detonation 'only' capped at planet-level?


OR we can also refer back to SS2 Majin Vegeta's kamikaze detonation in the Boo arc: Vegeta released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process) to try and destroy Boo, yet it ultimately just left a massive crater on the battlefield:
https://ibb.co/w6XH1C5
https://ibb.co/1n3JD2Y
https://ibb.co/nMDZqs6
https://ibb.co/HBHthkc

...Do you really think the potency of Vegeta's detonation 'only' capped at nuke-level?


If your answers to the above are 'no', then why wouldn't the same logic also apply to the Moro scene? ie. The range/scale of his imminent detonation may have 'only' been galaxy-level, but the potency within that area may have been vastly beyond that.

Because like you mentioned: the anime and manga have both established that even when two n00b-SSG level opponents fight(Beerus was suppressing himself down to Goku's level), it can result in the destruction of the entire universe:
https://ibb.co/NpWPdq5

...And Angel-Moro is literally hundredS/thousandS of times beyond n00b-SSG level.



tl;dr
Like I keep reiterating: in the world of DB, the amount of collateral damage an attack causes is not always indicative of the attack's true power/potency within a designated area... Hence, again, why the Kamehameha that MUI Goku used to drop Jiren is >g_infinity the Kamehameha that OG Roshi used to destroy the moon(despite the latter causing FAR more collateral damage than the former.)
So it basically boils down to pick and choose from what you think is appropriate for that power level and discarding anything below that level as "Do you really think this and that". As I said DBZ is apparently immune to the law of averages every other fictional setting is judged by. You'll not accept comic characters having chain scaling like that. Originally posted by carver9
"Killing Moro". What does killing mean to you?

It even say, "beyond that". At least you're trying. Doomsday death on the moon didn't even leave a crack.
What do you think "Swollen energy will detonate" means?

What do you think after his death means? You are the one that forgot to mention that part. Him dying destroying a planet is already greater than any death Superman, Doomsday or Superboy Prime has had. When you factor in the milky way being destroyed as a side effect, that piss on most cosmics. Cry more.

Originally posted by carver9
Lmmfao... i don't debate collateral damage.

Originally posted by carver9
What do you think after his death means? You are the one that forgot to mention that part. Him dying destroying a planet is already greater than any death Superman, Doomsday or Superboy Prime has had. When you factor in the milky way being destroyed as a side effect, that piss on most comics. Cry more.

So collateral damage? This you?

*sigh* I feel like my posts regarding the general irrelevance of collateral damage, and the much higher importance of attack potency, are just falling on deaf ears to some here.


Like I said before: SPC was SS2-tier, and stated that his final Kamehameha had the power to destroy the solar system(which was corroborated in a guidebook, iirc.) That said, when SS2 Majin Vegeta kamikaze'd against Boo, he released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process), and this was the end result:

https://i.ibb.co/jRFgVhN/1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/sqmbGL7/2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8b0R4J7/3.jpg


This is important because SS2 Majin Vegeta > SPC. And even though the collateral damage he caused 'only' appears to be nuke-like, we can logically infer that said kamikaze might've had solar system+ level potency within that localized area(ie. if you're inside the bubble, you are only surviving if you can endure a solar system buster.)

So why couldn't the Moro instance be the same, except his 'bubble' is on a galactic scale instead..? After all, we know that even low level God-tier characters can generate universe-busting shockwaves as a corollary of a short brawl between them, and Moro is orders of magnitude above that level, so...

ermm

Originally posted by carver9
What do you think after his death means? You are the one that forgot to mention that part. Him dying destroying a planet is already greater than any death Superman, Doomsday or Superboy Prime has had. When you factor in the milky way being destroyed as a side effect, that piss on most cosmics. Cry more.
Really? Here's Monarch dying destroyed an entire universe.

https://i.ibb.co/Zfj4rM8/c-T7p7-O48-Vg-Cl1-7-QLjvrj-v9-L1x-Vc-RE9-Kipb-Wx-Vb-Vwzx-Cs-SDFtc-E9-H6h-La-hg-NIXDPIe-DBy1e-XK-t-Pb.jpg https://i.ibb.co/8mQCntg/bq-Pkk8-eeu-Jz-Bq-pz-Dk1ce-Lg-Hb-S5-HLp2-T6t-Gg-ORfyaftc-TY4k-Gkv9ww-j-Se27j328k-YQ1-Ms-K328z-Uot-JZ.jpg

Monarch is infinitely more powerful than Moro, right?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So collateral damage? This you?

Stay in topic. This is why I'm discuss this. I never mentioned Moro death destroying a Galaxy as a way he could win, but when you downplay someone's death that would wipe away the largest Galaxy in the universe, you're trolling. This doesn't happen in comics and it's FAR and away from being a low showing or showing the capabilities of someone's power level. Especially considering beings like LT death not destroying sh**.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That doesn't always works in DBZ, by scaling nowadays DB characters should be universal/multiversal but as recently as Moro arc had Moro threaten to destroy the galaxy and that was supposed to be a big deal.

Originally posted by Galan007
*sigh* I feel like my posts regarding the general irrelevance of collateral damage, and the much higher importance of attack potency, are just falling on deaf ears to some here.


Like I said before: SPC was SS2-tier, and stated that his final Kamehameha had the power to destroy the solar system(which was corroborated in a guidebook, iirc.) That said, when SS2 Majin Vegeta kamikaze'd against Boo, he released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process), and this was the end result:

https://i.ibb.co/jRFgVhN/1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/sqmbGL7/2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8b0R4J7/3.jpg


This is important because SS2 Majin Vegeta > SPC. And even though the collateral damage he caused 'only' appears to be nuke-like, we can logically infer that said kamikaze might've had solar system+ level potency within that localized area(ie. if you're inside the bubble, you are only surviving if you can endure a solar system buster.)

So why couldn't the Moro instance be the same, except his 'bubble' is on a galactic scale instead..? After all, we know that even low level God-tier characters can generate universe-busting shockwaves as a corollary of a short brawl between them, and Moro is orders of magnitude above that level, so...

ermm Originally posted by abhilegend
Really? Here's Monarch dying destroyed an entire universe.

https://i.ibb.co/Zfj4rM8/c-T7p7-O48-Vg-Cl1-7-QLjvrj-v9-L1x-Vc-RE9-Kipb-Wx-Vb-Vwzx-Cs-SDFtc-E9-H6h-La-hg-NIXDPIe-DBy1e-XK-t-Pb.jpg https://i.ibb.co/8mQCntg/bq-Pkk8-eeu-Jz-Bq-pz-Dk1ce-Lg-Hb-S5-HLp2-T6t-Gg-ORfyaftc-TY4k-Gkv9ww-j-Se27j328k-YQ1-Ms-K328z-Uot-JZ.jpg

Monarch is infinitely more powerful than Moro, right?
Would you say the same thing about Monarch and Prime? We know Monarch destroyed an entire universe and Prime tore his suit open meaning anytime he gets a below universe level feat it is a case of potency not destructive capacity?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Really? Here's Monarch dying destroyed an entire universe.

https://i.ibb.co/Zfj4rM8/c-T7p7-O48-Vg-Cl1-7-QLjvrj-v9-L1x-Vc-RE9-Kipb-Wx-Vb-Vwzx-Cs-SDFtc-E9-H6h-La-hg-NIXDPIe-DBy1e-XK-t-Pb.jpg https://i.ibb.co/8mQCntg/bq-Pkk8-eeu-Jz-Bq-pz-Dk1ce-Lg-Hb-S5-HLp2-T6t-Gg-ORfyaftc-TY4k-Gkv9ww-j-Se27j328k-YQ1-Ms-K328z-Uot-JZ.jpg

Monarch is infinitely more powerful than Moro, right?

And this showing isn't an indication of power level. Example, Darkseid death, the same Darkseid who was matching Anti Monitor only left a crater in the ground. Is Darkseid only building level? Let me know. We can do this all day ...

https://i.ibb.co/NTqt8Cq/JL-44-dylux-22-560ddc6ec4fa02-38815578.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Stay in topic. This is why I'm discuss this. I never mentioned Moro death destroying a Galaxy as a way he could win, but when you downplay someone's death that would wipe away the largest Galaxy in the universe, you're trolling. This doesn't happen in comics and it's FAR and away from being a low showing or showing the capabilities of someone's power level. Especially considering beings like LT death not destroying sh**.

You really don't understand Galan's point, do you?

Originally posted by Galan007
*sigh* I feel like my posts regarding the general irrelevance of collateral damage, and the much higher importance of attack potency, are just falling on deaf ears to some here.


Like I said before: SPC was SS2-tier, and stated that his final Kamehameha had the power to destroy the solar system(which was corroborated in a guidebook, iirc.) That said, when SS2 Majin Vegeta kamikaze'd against Boo, he released the sum total of his energy(killing himself in the process), and this was the end result:

https://i.ibb.co/jRFgVhN/1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/sqmbGL7/2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8b0R4J7/3.jpg


This is important because SS2 Majin Vegeta > SPC. And even though the collateral damage he caused 'only' appears to be nuke-like, we can logically infer that said kamikaze might've had solar system+ level potency within that localized area(ie. if you're inside the bubble, you are only surviving if you can endure a solar system buster.)

So why couldn't the Moro instance be the same, except his 'bubble' is on a galactic scale instead..? After all, we know that even low level God-tier characters can generate universe-busting shockwaves as a corollary of a short brawl between them, and Moro is orders of magnitude above that level, so...

ermm

This.

I'm not going against Galan. I'm debate ABHI dumb point.

Originally posted by carver9
And this showing isn't an indication of power level. Example, Darkseid death, the same Darkseid who was matching Anti Monitor only left a crater in the ground. Is Darkseid only building level? Let me know. We can do this all day ...

https://i.ibb.co/NTqt8Cq/JL-44-dylux-22-560ddc6ec4fa02-38815578.jpg
As we know Darkseid is more powerful than Monarch, it's just a case of potency, not destructive capability. Just using DBZ logic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
As we know Darkseid is more powerful than Monarch, it's just a case of potency, not destructive capability. Just using DBZ logic.

Lol... Nope, you're not using DBZ logic or any logic tbh because a person's death doesn't translate to the amount of power they have. Frieza is a bonified planet destroyer, Roshi is a bonified moon destroyer and neither of their deaths destroyed anything.



Moro is the exception

bonified.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So it basically boils down to pick and choose from what you think is appropriate for that power level and discarding anything below that level as "Do you really think this and that". As I said DBZ is apparently immune to the law of averages every other fictional setting is judged by. Huh? I have provided evidence to support every single claim I've made here. If you don't like(or can't accept) DB-logic, then... Sorry? But that's just how it is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You'll not accept comic characters having chain scaling like that. How many dozens of writers has Superman, Batman, Hulk, Spider-Man, etc. had over the last 40 years? How many writers did DB have over the last 40 years?

There's your answer. DB had ONE writer... And if Toriyama himself wasn't physically writing the material, he was at least heavily involved in the overall creative process -- still pointing the story in the direction he wanted it to go.

Now, I'm certainly not saying that DB has always been 100% consistent across the board... But with power-scaling in particular, it has generally been very consistent. Flip side, a comic character's level can(and does) fluctuate wildly, depending on who's writing them at any given time. That's why power-scaling in comics will never be as reliable as it is with something like DB.

However, if we are having cross genre matches, we should perhaps have consistent rules across them

^ It's not as much of a rules thing, so much as it's just understanding why comic characters cannot be power-scaled in the same way as the majority of manga characters.

DB = one writer, and one direction the characters/story will go. A singular vision.
Comics = dozens of writers, and dozens of directions the characters/stories will go. A muddled vision.

Manga and comics simply do not operate on a 'like-for-like' system in that way, so I'm not sure why abhi keeps bringing it up?

Yeah I am just thinking that these threads will always devolve into....well, whatever it is now. I mean, not that it's necessarily a bad thing, what with the low traffic and all.

But with the two VASTLY differing genres, what would happen is what carver is doing - low showings will always get brought up, when high-end showings are perfectly usable. Manga and Comics are simply too different to be comparable, unless we have consistent rules to compare the two.

Also, to stay on topic with the thread, I think you are thinking of AoU Luke Cage.

And I still say Ben Grimm and/or Spidey.

You honestly don't believe Spiderman and Ben have Ultimate Nullifer level durability. Please tell me you're joking.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I am just thinking that these threads will always devolve into....well, whatever it is now. I mean, not that it's necessarily a bad thing, what with the low traffic and all.

But with the two VASTLY differing genres, what would happen is what carver is doing - low showings will always get brought up, when high-end showings are perfectly usable. Manga and Comics are simply too different to be comparable, unless we have consistent rules to compare the two.

Also, to stay on topic with the thread, I think you are thinking of AoU Luke Cage.

And I still say Ben Grimm and/or Spidey. There's a reason why manga and comic discussions are usually separated into different forums. Cross-genre stuff can work, but you have to be willing to accept the fact that there is a completely different set of parameters that govern each medium(particularly where power-scaling/placement is concerned.)

In comics it's all about using quantifiable on-panel evidence in order to prove 'x' character can definitively preform a certain caliber of feat... But in a manga/anime like DB, for example, I don't need to see Krillin ever destroy(or even talk about destroying) a planet on-panel, because his PL alone supports the claim that he undoubtedly CAN.


Ohh yeah, AoU sounds right.

I agree with Thing, though(assuming KP's blast was 'just' nuke-level, obvs.)

Originally posted by carver9
You honestly don't believe Spiderman and Ben have Ultimate Nullifer level durability. Please tell me you're joking.

The thread OP didn't say one off high end showings aren't allowed?

You would debate in this thread like you would in any thread. So thinking Spiderman is Ultimate Nullifier levels is funny as hell.

Originally posted by carver9
You would debate in this thread like you would in any thread. So thinking Spiderman is Ultimate Nullifier levels is funny as hell.

Is it non-canon?

Yes. In all threads including this one, is Spiderman durability in your opinion always Ultimate Nullifier levels? Please don't answer my question with a question. Thanks.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes. In all threads including this one, is Spiderman durability in your opinion always Ultimate Nullifier levels? Please don't answer my question with a question. Thanks.

Oh if it is non-canon then no use discussing it.

I would like to see proof that it is non-canon, though. Thanks. Otherwise you are lying your ass off.

And to answer your question, no, it is not always at UN levels. In THAT scene, it is, though.

Didn't mean to say yes on it being non-canon. It's canon. So you agree that it's not always UN level?

Originally posted by carver9
Didn't mean to say yes on it being non-canon. It's canon. So you agree that it's not always UN level?

Can you not read? (I know you said not to answer a question with a question, but...)

Come on Carvy, let's see you try a trap for once. Different writers have differing views on power levels.

Let me guess - you are going to say that in the comic, he was trans-level or something, and this makes you happy?

Nope, not what I'm going to say. What i am going to say is, since you agree that Spiderman durability isn't UN levels and my thread is no different than any other thread, we both agree this attack would kill Spiderman. I'm sure if I made a Darkseid vs Spiderman thread, you wouldn't use that scan on why Spiderman would defeat Darkseid.

Originally posted by carver9
Nope, not what I'm going to say. What i am going to say is, since you agree that Spiderman durability isn't UN levels and my thread is no different than any other thread, we both agree this attack would kill Spiderman. I'm sure if I made a Darkseid vs Spiderman thread, you wouldn't use that scan on why Spiderman would defeat Darkseid.

No, I said it wasn't ALWAYS UN level. ALWAYS. See how I spotted your clumsy trap?

Also, your thread IS different. It involves anime/manga, which has different rules - and hence, I am arguing using different tactics. Look at you, pookie, getting owned again

So you're making up your own rules? Maybe this thread isn't for you, Saint.

Originally posted by carver9
So you're making up your own rules? Maybe this thread isn't for you, Saint.

I am? I am using canon comics, no? What rules am I breaking or making up?

Is Spidey unusually powered up there? Is it a crossover comic?

Look, if you have something beyond 'no, I don't like it', then speak up pookie

Edit: also note I said 'tactics'. Not rules

Maybe the English language isn't for you.

Im expecting you to think Spiderman is abstract levels in all of his threads, Saint

Originally posted by carver9
Im expecting you to think Spiderman is abstract levels in all of his threads, Saint

Nope. My scan answers your thread perfectly, you don't like it, set a better OP lol

No it doesn't because even you don't think he's at that level.

Originally posted by carver9
No it doesn't because even you don't think he's at that level.

Yet the canon comic clearly shows him surviving it, which is what your OP asked for. Maybe have a better thread next time.

I even asked on page 1 for you to clarify exactly what's happening, and my scan matches it all.

But you don't believe he's that durable which defeats his purpose in this thread. Thanks for stopping by. Anyone else wanna give this a try?

Originally posted by carver9
But you don't believe he's that durable which defeats his purpose in this thread. Thanks for stopping by. Anyone else wanna give this a try?

Where did I say that? Damn, man, you're just getting tied up ATM

In this fight, can Spiderman lay on the ground while Batman unleashed all of his attacks on him without getting a scratch? Yes or no?


https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=512807&highlight=%22Spiderman+vs+Mongul%22