Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Thor has his Hammer strapped to his waist.

This is h2h only.

Split or edge to Orion

Based off fts, Thor stomps tbh.

Originally posted by carver9
Based off fts, Thor stomps tbh.

Like?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like?

Million tons.

https://i.ibb.co/pvn10vJv/hKqbfjg.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tPhDT1Bx/O4RnSAZ.jpg

Match it.

So lifting? This is a weightlifting competition thread is it?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So lifting? This is a weightlifting competition thread is it?

Its a best of your abilities thread. Can you match my lifting ft? Yes or no? We will do speed next.

Nah, it's a fighting thread. Orion throws down in h2h with Superman.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nah, it's a fighting thread. Orion throws down in h2h with Superman.

Batman does as well. Orion fights against Superman is PIS. Match my strength ft, please. Also, Thor flies through a sun unscathed...

https://i.ibb.co/dsfv7Zgb/VceImgt.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Batman does as well. Orion fights against Superman is PIS. Match my strength ft, please. Also, Thor flies through a sun unscathed...

https://i.ibb.co/dsfv7Zgb/VceImgt.jpg

Lmao you do know he wasn't unscathed, right? Did you read the comic or are you relying on respect threads again? His eyes were burning until his mom told him to come back inside.

Anyway, I even used Orion lmao:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're not understanding my point.

It depends on the number of showings they have, total.

Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.

Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.

Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.

IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.

The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.

Prove they're PIS.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao you do know he wasn't unscathed, right? Did you read the comic or are you relying on respect threads again? His eyes were burning until his mom told him to come back inside.

Anyway, I even used Orion lmao:



Prove they're PIS.

His eyes endured them for some time. I'm guessing you can't match my fts. Was Superman fighting in nanoseconds, erase voice, bench Earth weights during his fight against Orion? If so, prove it. Until then, Thor stomps. Is your number thing in the rules?

Originally posted by carver9
His eyes endured them for some time. I'm guessing you can't match my fts. Was Superman fighting in nanoseconds, erase voice, bench Earth weights during his fight against Orion? If so, prove it. Until then, Thor stomps. Is your number thing in the rules? so not unscathed then. Guessing you don't know the meaning of the word. Google could be your best friend

Orion is far beyond that, being a literal concept (as seen in canon).

You know what IS in the rules? Full Capacity. I'm guessing you don't want Orion at Full Capacity so I'll hold him back for you.

Fights are still feats, in any case, despite what you are butthurt about. So, any relevant feats from Thor? OP doesn't say anything about it being a lifting thread lol.

Orion fighting a holding back Superman isnt a ft. So im guessing you can't match what I showed? Concede.

Orion at full power would probably stomp. He was casually repelling the whole JLA and beating down Darkseid.

Originally posted by carver9
Orion fighting a holding back Superman isnt a ft. So im guessing you can't match what I showed? Concede.

Prove he was holding back, and prove by how much. Superman at 50% of his speed is still faster than Thor's best.

Didn't Orion briefly stalemate a sunamped Supes back in the day(during Man of Tomorrow, I think it was)..?

Now that would probably be more of an outlier, but still...

All out Orion is a different beast.

https://i.ibb.co/Rkb689jy/tumblr-7989fe8402d8e22da43803afc1118efb-9bb8e0d0-1280.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/wNBS0shG/tumblr-a46dce626aee0bc2d48b8fa1466fdf44-6c326942-1280.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007


Now that would probably be more of an outlier, but still...

It is.

I thought you were asking for feats? Just like when abhi asked for Surfer's, you responded with the Infinity Gauntlet showing (lol).

All New Gods have avatars, just like Darkseid. Was established in a wonderful woman run.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought you were asking for feats? Just like when abhi asked for Surfer's, you responded with the Infinity Gauntlet showing (lol).

It really doesnt even matter tbh because he didnt win. All he did was last against an amped Superman that wasnt trying to kill him.

Orion is likely a better martial artist than Thor, too. With equal strength and more skill, Orion has this in the bag

They did in that one issue where Superman guessed stared.

lol anyway this has always been one of the closest of match ups. h2h orion 5.5/10. weapons in thor 5.5/10.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hulk needs a specific set of circumstances to go WBH levels. If Spidey tells yo mama jokes ad nauseam, he's not reaching those levels. If Bushwhacker shoots his eyes out, he's not going WBH. If King Thor is beating the crap out of him and he needs Susan Storm to bail him out, he doesn't go WBH.

This isnt true.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol anyway this has always been one of the closest of match ups. h2h orion 5.5/10. weapons in thor 5.5/10.

Yeah that was Classic Thor. Thor is far more these days.

Originally posted by carver9
This isnt true.

He went WBH when King Thor was beating him up, when Susan had to save him? Scans.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He went WBH when King Thor was beating him up, when Susan had to save him? Scans.

Lol... that's not how this works.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... that's not how this works.

So what I said was true, then? He DIDNT go WBH when King Thor was smashing him, when Susan had to come save him?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what I said was true, then? He DIDNT go WBH when King Thor was smashing him, when Susan had to come save him?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hulk needs a specific set of circumstances to go WBH levels.

This is what you said which is inaccurate.

Yeah, it needs him to let go and stop holding back. And that only occurs under extreme circumstances. He doesn't do it generally.

He went from WBH, dropped down to Banner and went back to WBH, and did it casually. What circumstances is needed?

Originally posted by carver9
He went from WBH, dropped down to Banner and went back to WBH, and did it casually. What circumstances is needed?

His mental blocks that are always on? Are you referring to when he was fighting Sentry?

Originally posted by carver9
Million tons.

https://i.ibb.co/pvn10vJv/hKqbfjg.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tPhDT1Bx/O4RnSAZ.jpg

Match it.

Since Thor has better lifting feats than Thanos, does that mean he would also beat him in a h2h fight? Why or why not?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
His mental blocks that are always on? Are you referring to when he was fighting Sentry?

This is called control. He went from WBH, to calm Bruce Banner, skipped past regular Hulk and went to WBH. You will never admit it because you're too proud to admit when you're just flat out wrong. This isn't the only instance he did this as well...

https://i.ibb.co/Vc5wym6s/Screenshot-20250424-234630.png
https://i.ibb.co/CK9bcrK8/Screenshot-20250424-234657.png
https://i.ibb.co/G3QDP5jd/Screenshot-20250424-234709.png
https://i.ibb.co/BHMw373G/Screenshot-20250424-234723.png

Originally posted by h1a8
Since Thor has better lifting feats than Thanos, does that mean he would also beat him in a h2h fight? Why or why not?

When debating with you and Dark, yes, that's what it means.

Originally posted by carver9
This is called control. He went from WBH, to calm Bruce Banner, skipped past regular Hulk and went to WBH. You will never admit it because you're too proud to admit when you're just flat out wrong. This isn't the only instance he did this as well...

https://i.ibb.co/Vc5wym6s/Screenshot-20250424-234630.png
https://i.ibb.co/CK9bcrK8/Screenshot-20250424-234657.png
https://i.ibb.co/G3QDP5jd/Screenshot-20250424-234709.png
https://i.ibb.co/BHMw373G/Screenshot-20250424-234723.png

They're broken for me.

Are you talking about the fight with Sentry?

Originally posted by carver9
When debating with you and Dark, yes, that's what it means. So when you are debating others, Thanos will best Thor in h2h?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They're broken for me.

Are you talking about the fight with Sentry?

https://i.ibb.co/7x4s6QLQ/Screenshot-20250425-074159-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/MyzHvP8s/Screenshot-20250425-074212-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/vxpJGRv3/Screenshot-20250425-074229-Samsung-Internet.png
https://i.ibb.co/9kbbJPpN/Screenshot-20250425-074242-Samsung-Internet.png

Also, the scan states he can control it.

Here's the links just in case the images above doesn't work.

https://ibb.co/8nc1Sbtb
https://ibb.co/XfnPQFyb
https://ibb.co/HD6rs3pt
https://ibb.co/39ppwKT7

Originally posted by h1a8
So when you are debating others, Thanos will best Thor in h2h?

Im debating you, so yes, Thor can beat Thanos h2h based off fts.

So all those scans do, is prove my point - that Hulk holds back, and doesn't turn into the Worldbreaker if he can help it. Which he can.

Thanks.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hulk needs a specific set of circumstances to go WBH levels.

This is what you said. Let's not try to twist things because you were wrong. Thanks. Heck, there's one time where Hulk was standing on a cliff talking to Skaar and went WB and turned it off immediately. Glad that argument is out of the way. I'll leave the rest for you and stoic.

Originally posted by carver9
This is what you said. Let's not try to twist things because you were wrong. Thanks. Heck, there's one time where Hulk was standing on a cliff talking to Skaar and went WB and turned it off immediately. Glad that argument is out of the way. I'll leave the rest for you and stoic.

Yes - it's the same thing, which is what you are not getting.

Hulk is not going WBH in his daily life. It takes a specific set of circumstances for him to get angry enough to cut loose. He's always holding back, with mental blocks, and doesn't go WBH even when fighting King Thor/Bushwhcker etc. I even clarified:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, it needs him to let go and stop holding back. And that only occurs under extreme circumstances. He doesn't do it generally.



I think you misunderstood me, and think that I am saying he needs like, powerups or specific events to happen for him to go WBH? I am not saying he can't - I am saying he doesn't want to. Maybe the two are the same, actually, he can't get angry enough on a general basis.

But the end result is the same, and my point is the same as it always was, that Hulk does not go WBH generally everytime he is in a fight, whether it is because he holds himself back (like your scan shows) or whatever.

I dont get why he would use WBH against Thor. Would Banner even allow WBH to come out against an ally, and WB Hulk presence alone is a planetary threat. Heck, him walking is threat enough. Yes, I know there are instances of him being a thousand ft tall and his fart didnt destroy earth. I don't think writers think like we do during every situation but what we do know is, WBH even being on earth is traumatic enough. Him fighting King Thor in this form would cause significant damage not only to the beings around him, but to the planet itself. Also, when was King Thor beating on him? In the restaurant?

Originally posted by carver9
I dont get why he would use WBH against Thor. Would Banner even allow WBH to come out against an ally, and WB Hulk presence alone is a planetary threat. Heck, him walking is threat enough. Yes, I know there are instances of him being a thousand ft tall and his fart didnt destroy earth. I don't think writers think like we do during every situation but what we do know is, WBH even being on earth is traumatic enough. Him fighting King Thor in this form would cause significant damage not only to the beings around him, but to the planet itself. Also, when was King Thor beating on him? In the restaurant?
Yes.

My point is that Hulk is constantly holding back, even when he gets beaten up, just so that WBH doesn't come out willy-nilly.

In short, he needs a specific set of circumstances where he then goes 'ah phuck it, looks like it's WBH time again'. Which is my point this entire time. Your own scans support this.

But my scan shows him going WBH to take out a threat. 🤷🏾‍♂️

Also, why would he go WBH in a restaurant or in the city when theirs civilians around?

Him powering up was pushing everything around him away and created a big a** crater in the ground...

https://i.ibb.co/8DLSnQjY/Screenshot-20250425-111309-Samsung-Internet.png

Pushing things back...

https://i.ibb.co/pBchdNSQ/Screenshot-20250425-111344-Samsung-Internet.png

This would've devastated NY...

https://i.ibb.co/B5Ks7Hkb/Screenshot-20250425-111354-Samsung-Internet.png

In a forum fight, he doesn't have to worry about civilians. The above would obviously kill people around him. Also, most of the time, he doesn't need WB, even against King Thor.

Would you say it's in-character for Hulk to powerup into WBH-mode? Like Goku does when he goes SSJ, or w/e..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Would you say it's in-character for Hulk to powerup into WBH-mode? Like Goku does when he goes SSJ, or w/e..?

Its not. The forum rules contradicts this, though (fight to the best of their abilities and WBH is an ability).

Originally posted by carver9
Its not.

Originally posted by Galan007


Lol... so I wrote that entire sentence for nothing? Its not* is where you stopped a

Originally posted by carver9
I wrote that entire sentence Congrats.

@Phil...


Lol, thanks.

Orion wins imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Im debating you, so yes, Thor can beat Thanos h2h based off fts.
You didn't answer my question. Yes or no?

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't answer my question. Yes or no?

I did answer your question, lol. Read it again and you'll see your yes or no with context.

Originally posted by carver9
I did answer your question, lol. Read it again and you'll see your yes or no with context.

It appears that you answered a question you created, that's different than mine.

Originally posted by carver9
Im debating you, so yes, Thor can beat Thanos h2h based off fts.

So when debating others (not me or DS), Thor will beat Thanos in a h2h fight?
Is that correct?

Originally posted by h1a8
It appears that you answered a question you created, that's different than mine.



So when debating others (not me or DS), Thor will beat Thanos in a h2h fight?
Is that correct?

That question is irrelevant since im discussing this with you.

Originally posted by carver9
That question is irrelevant since im discussing this with you. It's not irrelevant. I'm not trying to trap you; I genuinely want to understand your reasoning.

The victor is not dependent on who you are debating with. That's trolling. This is a debate forum.

Use your own standards and reasoning, as long as they don't break forum rules, to argue who wins. Flip-flopping is for the weak-minded. I stay true to my stance. You should too. Just don't let your bias for Marvel and against Superman cloud your judgment.

Although Superman is stronger, Thor would beat him in a speed-equalized fight. That's my stance, and I will argue it in any thread. Thor is more skilled, massively more versatile, and has more experience.

A serious Spider-Man would beat Aquaman. He's not as strong, but he's significantly faster. A serious Peter can hurt Aquaman.

I value speed and skill over company loyalty. If a Marvel character is significantly faster, I tend to give them the nod. I've repped WBH in a massive number of threads.

What does Thanos have to do with anything?

How to determine which one of these guys are better fighters. Orion fights like a pit bull, while Thors combat form is more refined. He recently threw hands with Starship Hulk which is one of the strongest Hulks to date due to his base being well above Hercules and Jane Thor, who he casually handled. Starship Hulk is immortal Hulk in VR. Believing everything that he sees smells, etc is real.

Thanos recently battled immortal Hlulk no VR, and was unable to put him down. Thor in my honest opinion is definitely on the level these days, because of his performance against Starship Hulk if we are drawing from parallels. Only one thing stops most from seeing this is opponent count and his consistency of winning.

In my opinion Thor exceeds Orion, he can take Orions attacks as well as Orion can take his. Fighting style is crucial here which is why I see Thor taking an advantage due to having a more refined combat style.

Thor is fast enough to trade and evade wihile throwing hands with Orion. He could trade blows with Gladiator., Hyperion and Sentry. He should not look like a statue against Orion if we consider that.

Actually, Orion's teacher is Valkyra, one of the greatest fighters in the universe. He showed some skills in Simonson's run. I'd take Orion as the better fighter.

Orion knows all warfare throughout the universe. Orion 8/10. New Gods are just at a higher realm than Asgardians.

Thor blocked the hit of an Abstract. Orion doesnt stand a chance.

https://i.ibb.co/Hfphn5ZW/LUQFtFE.jpg

Orion owned the JLA. Thor is toast

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Orion knows all warfare throughout the universe. Orion 8/10. New Gods are just at a higher realm than Asgardians.

Thor is vastly more powerful these days compared to when that argument was arguable.

Same with Orion as he can be powered by the Source.

Red Orion>>> Warrior Madness Thor

Originally posted by carver9
Thor blocked the hit of an Abstract. Orion doesnt stand a chance.

https://i.ibb.co/Hfphn5ZW/LUQFtFE.jpg

Do you know what an Abstract is?
And what amount of force did Thor block?

He blocked an Abstract hit.

Orion -is- an Abstract. Every fight between the New Gods is essentially entirely conceptual.

Originally posted by Juntai
Orion -is- an Abstract. Every fight between the New Gods is essentially entirely conceptual.

Yeah, NG's are near abstract. They're higher level Gods, as stated in WW #53

https://i.ibb.co/nq8Hsn5s/HG.jpg

Hyper Gods>>>New Gods, though

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you know what an Abstract is?
And what amount of force did Thor block?

Yes, and Beyonders are abstracts, lol.

*Two universes apart.

Originally posted by Juntai
Failing to hold two planets apart isnt the great feat you think it is.

Yeah and the fact he dioesn't have many good battle feats

I mean, Susan Storm did the same. And actually has good battle feats too.

Originally posted by carver9
*Two universes apart. Indeed the planets were each packing an entire universe behind them, and that's exactly why they shattered -- it'd be like pushing an egg up against a house, and thinking the house will move before the egg breaks. IOW, Hyperion only held as much 'universe-weight' as the respective worlds he was pushing against were capable of withstanding before they broke under the stress, and the universes collapsed anyway.

So as a strength feat it's borderline unquantifiable, imo... It is a great durability showing, though.

Originally posted by Galan007
Indeed the planets were each packing an entire universe behind them, and that's exactly why they shattered -- it'd be like pushing an egg up against a house, and thinking the house will move before the egg breaks. IOW, Hyperion only held as much 'universe-weight' as the respective worlds he was pushing against were capable of withstanding before they broke under the stress, and the universes collapsed anyway.

So as a strength feat it's borderline unquantifiable, imo... It is a great durability showing, though.

Him momentarily stopping them is the ft. Yes, they crumbled, but the pause is what should be praised.

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, and Beyonders are abstracts, lol.
What's the definition of an Abstract being?

Originally posted by carver9
Him momentarily stopping them is the ft. Yes, they crumbled, but the pause is what should be praised. If this were Superman, you'd be citing material physics.

Rocky planets are not perfectly rigid. As they collide, the crusts and mantles would behave plastically or elastically for a short time under pressure, allowing for compression before reaching the yield point (i.e., shattering or catastrophic failure).

In other words, the planets had some degree of plasticity or elasticity and were compressed to their limit before breaking apart. The brief period during that compression is the window in which we can say Hyperion held them apart.

That's exactly the argument you'd make if Superman performed this feat.

Originally posted by h1a8
If this were Superman, you'd be citing material physics.

Rocky planets are not perfectly rigid. As they collide, the crusts and mantles would behave plastically or elastically for a short time under pressure, allowing for compression before reaching the yield point (i.e., shattering or catastrophic failure).

In other words, the planets had some degree of plasticity or elasticity and were compressed to their limit before breaking apart. The brief period during that compression is the window in which we can say Hyperion held them apart.

That's exactly the argument you'd make if Superman performed this feat.

Hyperion did hold them apart. The rest of your sentence doesnt even make sense. Here we have Cap with the Gauntlet pushing earth back which also pushed the Universe back as well. All of that elastic sh** youre talking about means nothing because we are talking about comics.


https://i.ibb.co/kpbVdH1/z4gzke3ca8661.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Wp0qc5bG/dagcyg3ca8661.jpg

The scene states that he held them apart until the planet gave way.

https://i.ibb.co/RpNY1CZb/zDwSZry.jpg

I dont have to worry about if Superman did this or not since this is FAR above his power level to do.

Originally posted by carver9
Hyperion did hold them apart. The rest of your sentence doesnt even make sense. Here we have Cap with the Gauntlet pushing earth back which also pushed the Universe back as well. All of that elastic sh** youre talking about means nothing because we are talking about comics.

https://ibb.co/cPfKmgL A feat preformed with the IG =/= a feat preformed with physical strength alone.

For the love of god, stop trying to act like these showings are at all comparable.

Originally posted by carver9
The scene states that he held them apart until the planet gave way.

https://ibb.co/C56mqnN8 If I push an egg against the side of a house, the egg will "give way" LONG before the house itself starts to budge.

Point being, it does not require the full weight/force of an entire universe to shatter a single planet, lol. Hyperion only held back as much weight/force as the planets were capable of enduring before they crumbled. So again, as a strength feat it's borderline unquantifiable.

Originally posted by carver9
Hyperion did hold them apart. The rest of your sentence doesnt even make sense. Here we have Cap with the Gauntlet pushing earth back which also pushed the Universe back as well. All of that elastic sh** youre talking about means nothing because we are talking about comics.


https://i.ibb.co/kpbVdH1/z4gzke3ca8661.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Wp0qc5bG/dagcyg3ca8661.jpg

The scene states that he held them apart until the planet gave way.

https://i.ibb.co/RpNY1CZb/zDwSZry.jpg

I dont have to worry about if Superman did this or not since this is FAR above his power level to do.

Ignoring real-world physics and assuming rocky planets are 100% rigid with zero elasticity and no molten core:

The initial forces pushing the planets must have been low enough for them to withstand the pressure briefly without shattering. Then, the force increased to a level that exceeded their structural limits, causing them to break apart. Otherwise, if the force had remained constant, the planets would never have shattered - since, by definition, a perfectly rigid body can't fail under a steady force.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ignoring real-world physics and assuming rocky planets are 100% rigid with zero elasticity and no molten core:

The initial forces pushing the planets must have been low enough for them to withstand the pressure briefly without shattering. Then, the force increased to a level that exceeded their structural limits, causing them to break apart. Otherwise, if the force had remained constant, the planets would never have shattered - since, by definition, a perfectly rigid body can't fail under a steady force.

You just said ignore real world physics and then mention real world physics. Im guessing Superman and Doomsday was hitting each other at Jubilee level strength since Lois was literally standing right beside them and didnt even suffer a scratch. When I say standing right beside them, im talking about right there. Is Superman going all out weaker than Spiderman? Reduce Superman and Doomsday to street tier and i will reduce Hyperion showing to planetary...

https://i.ibb.co/3n7HzdX/Death-Of-Superman1992-Str2.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
You just said ignore real world physics and then mention real world physics. Im guessing Superman and Doomsday was hitting each other at Jubilee level strength since Lois was literally standing right beside them and didnt even suffer a scratch. When I say standing right beside them, im talking about right there. Is Superman going all out weaker than Spiderman? Reduce Superman and Doomsday to street tier and i will reduce Hyperion showing to planetary...

https://i.ibb.co/3n7HzdX/Death-Of-Superman1992-Str2.jpg
Superman is using heat vision on Doomsday, and the lack of collateral damage is irrelevant here. I was using logic, not physics.

The planets weren't destroyed instantly; there was a moment where they withstood the force before shattering. What's the logical explanation?

Either:
1. The planets were pushed to their structural elasticity limits before finally giving way; this makes a lot of sense.
2. The initial force on the planets was lower, allowing them to withstand it momentarily, and then the force increased enough to exceed their durability, causing them to shatter.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman is using heat vision on Doomsday, and the lack of collateral damage is irrelevant here. I was using logic, not physics.

The planets weren't destroyed instantly; there was a moment where they withstood the force before shattering. What's the logical explanation?

Either:
1. The planets were pushed to their structural elasticity limits before finally giving way; this makes a lot of sense.
2. The initial force on the planets was lower, allowing them to withstand it momentarily, and then the force increased enough to exceed their durability, causing them to shatter.

The concussive force alone that is capable of pushing Doomsday back should've severely injured Lois.

The planets were not destroyed instantly because we are reading comics, not w news article.

It's like Galan's example.

Two cars speed towards me, with eggs strapped to their fronts. I hold the cars apart until the eggs crack and explode. And then the cars crash into me.

Not really a strength feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's like Galan's example.

Two cars speed towards me, with eggs strapped to their fronts. I hold the cars apart until the eggs crack and explode. And then the cars crash into me.

Not really a strength feat.

I would agree with you if this wasn't said - "he held them apart, UNTIL". So, he did successfully held the planets/universe apart until they gave way. We literally saw on panel the earth being pushed back which was also pushing the universe back as well. Also, again, we are talking about comics, where people can get bitten by a spider and gain extra ordinary abilities.

Originally posted by carver9
I would agree with you if this wasn't said - "he held them apart, UNTIL". So, he did successfully held the planets/universe apart until they gave way. We literally saw on panel the earth being pushed back which was also pushing the universe back as well. Also, again, we are talking about comics, where people can get bitten by a spider and gain extra ordinary abilities. If you hold up a beam as a house is falling on you and the house takes a half-second to fully destroy the beam and then crush you, would you say you held the house up for a half-second?

Originally posted by carver9
I would agree with you if this wasn't said - "he held them apart, UNTIL". So, he did successfully held the planets/universe apart until they gave way. We literally saw on panel the earth being pushed back which was also pushing the universe back as well. Also, again, we are talking about comics, where people can get bitten by a spider and gain extra ordinary abilities.

Then why not agree with me? My post literally says I held the cars apart UNTIL the eggs crack and explode.

Hell, you can do this yourself. Grab an egg, put it on a table, and press slowly down on it, UNTIL it breaks.

Did the egg support your full weight as a fully grown man?

Originally posted by Blight
If you hold up a beam as a house is falling on you and the house takes a half-second to fully destroy the beam and then crush you, would you say you held the house up for a half-second?

I would say that the beams did not hold the house as intended. The difference here is, Hyperion did hold the planets apart, temporarily. It's said right there on panel.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then why not agree with me? My post literally says I held the cars apart UNTIL the eggs crack and explode.

Hell, you can do this yourself. Grab an egg, put it on a table, and press slowly down on it, UNTIL it breaks.

Did the egg support your full weight as a fully grown man?

Because an egg can not hold me, period. It would crack, immediately. It was more at play during this instance. My question is, how can planets drag universes to other universes?

Originally posted by carver9
Because an egg can not hold me, period. It would crack, immediately. It was more at play during this instance. My question is, how can planets drag universes to other universes?

It won't crack as soon as you touched it, lol. You put it on the table, put your hand on it, and start pressing. It won't break immediately. Eggs don't explode as soon as you touch them, lmao.

It will hold, UNTIL you put too much pressure on it, and it breaks. But no-one would say it held your weight, even for a millisecond. It's an egg. It took as much pressure as any other egg would have done in its place, as countless eggs have done before.

You forgot to answer my question.

Because you still haven't answered mine. Eggs don't explode as soon as your fingers brush over them, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because you still haven't answered mine. Eggs don't explode as soon as your fingers brush over them, lol.

There's a huge difference here. My entire weight was not pressed against the egg whereas in this instance, the full weight of both Universes were pushing the planets. So I agree with you that an egg can not support my body weight, but the full weight of a universe was pushing the planets.

Originally posted by carver9
The concussive force alone that is capable of pushing Doomsday back should've severely injured Lois.

The planets were not destroyed instantly because we are reading comics, not w news article.

1. Why? It's heat vision, not a punch. The fact that the HV has ANY CONCUSSIVE properties tell you how powerful it was. Million degree lasers have very little concussive properties.

2. We use logic. The most reasonable explanation is that the planets reached their structural limits, similar to how materials in a hydraulic press compress before shattering. The planets compressed while he held them apart, and he maintained his hold until they reached their limit and shattered.

At best, Hyperion was stronger than the minimum force required to shatter a planet.

You've challenged Superman's and other DC characters' feats by arguing physics. You can't pick and choose based on what suits you; you have to be consistent.

Originally posted by carver9
There's a huge difference here. My entire weight was not pressed against the egg whereas in this instance, the full weight of both Universes were pushing the planets. So I agree with you that an egg can not support my body weight, but the full weight of a universe was pushing the planets.

The planets were moving slowly toward each other, allowing them to be held apart briefly while being slightly compressed.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Why? It's heat vision, not a punch. The fact that the HV has ANY CONCUSSIVE properties tell you how powerful it was. Million degree lasers have very little concussive properties.

2. We use logic. The most reasonable explanation is that the planets reached their structural limits, similar to how materials in a hydraulic press compress before shattering. The planets compressed while he held them apart, and he maintained his hold until they reached their limit and shattered.

At best, Hyperion was stronger than the minimum force required to shatter a planet.

You've challenged Superman's and other DC characters' feats by arguing physics. You can't pick and choose based on what suits you; you have to be consistent.



The planets were moving slowly toward each other, allowing them to be held apart briefly while being slightly compressed.

This entire post is garbage but I do want to address one thing. How do you know the planets were moving slow?

Originally posted by carver9
There's a huge difference here. My entire weight was not pressed against the egg whereas in this instance, the full weight of both Universes were pushing the planets. So I agree with you that an egg can not support my body weight, but the full weight of a universe was pushing the planets.

Yeah they're pushing the planets through empty space. UNTIL they meet resistance.

Ok, back to the egg because you're not getting it....your hand is putting the egg on the table, right? UNTIL the egg touches the table, nothing is resisting it, right?

THEN you put it on the table, and then keep pushing down, until it breaks. That's all that happens.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's like Galan's example.

Two cars speed towards me, with eggs strapped to their fronts. I hold the cars apart until the eggs crack and explode. And then the cars crash into me.

Not really a strength feat. Exactly.

It's still a decent strength feat(to some extent) because in this case the eggs are planets, but yeah, it's not like Hyperion was throwing around anything remotely close to universe-weight++ or w/e... That argument has always been stupid to me because of how unquantifiable the showing actually is.

It is a really good durability feat, tho.

it really is a terrible feat to try and quantify. what if the eggs were to spheres of steel and ds held the cars apart? now it's a MUCH different feat. who knows how much of the universal forces the planets were able to actually hold? all we know for sure is he held apart enough combined force to shatter two planets. if they were adamantium could he have held them longer? who knows. terrible forum feat. the inference though is (i think) clear--the authors intended to get across the idea that he held the universes apart. in all honesty i don't think the writers were considering analogies.

Nope, they weren't. People are just making a simple comic ft difficult than what it is.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Eggs don't explode as soon as your fingers brush over them, lol.

You really think Derrick would resist your touch?

He'd paint you white in an instant.

Originally posted by leonidas
it really is a terrible feat to try and quantify. what if the eggs were to spheres of steel and ds held the cars apart? now it's a MUCH different feat. who knows how much of the universal forces the planets were able to actually hold? all we know for sure is he held apart enough combined force to shatter two planets. if they were adamantium could he have held them longer? who knows. terrible forum feat. the inference though is (i think) clear--the authors intended to get across the idea that he held the universes apart. in all honesty i don't think the writers were considering analogies.

He held two breakable items apart, until they broke. The inference, though is clear that he survived, not that he held them apart. His durability is top notch. Your usage of steel/adamantium is not quite working (leave the analogies to me!) because the whole scene needs something that is relatively breakable (eggs, or planets) being pushed by something very powerful (the car, or universal incursions).

It's a durability feat, not a strength feat, as I've been saying all along. The feat is that Hyperion survived the destruction of two universes, not that he used his strength to hold off two universes off for an unspecified amount of time.

Why, Invisible Woman did the same, and we even have a timeframe for her, ~5 seconds.

Edit: even IF we want to use leo's steel/adamantium balls (hehe), it still applies, right?

Two cars speeding at each other, with Leo's (steel) balls in front. I am in the middle (of these balls).

I hold the cars apart - until my arms break. By leo and carver's logic, I...held back two cars.

Let's scale it up. Two tanks/fighter jets/aircraft carriers. My shoulders hold them apart - until my arms break.

Are there no limits to DS' shoulder strength?????? Of course, if we agree it is a durability feat, then yeah, my arms wouldn't break. The key point is that whatever is holding the two forces apart, MUST be more durable than what is being pushed apart.

Replace Hyperion with a block of primary adamantium that is Hyperion shaped/sized. Would anyone say that the adamantium's muscles are 'strong'?

problem with what you said is that your arms break. would hype's arms have broken had the planets held? beats me. how much force would it have taken to break his arms? unlike your silly analogy of the cars breaking your arms (a known result based on human biology) we don't know how much it would have taken to break hype. and if you read what i said, i said he held back enough force that 2 PLANETS shattered before he did. iow he didn't fail. the planets failed. it's been crazy watching people degrade this feat over the years, like spiderman could have done it. my point is (and galan's i suspect) is that it's an unquantifiable strength feat. obviously it's a of durability feat as well. but it's just as obviously a massive strength feat. of some sort.

Originally posted by leonidas
problem with what you said is that your arms break. would hype's arms have broken had the planets held? beats me. how much force would it have taken to break his arms? unlike your silly analogy of the cars breaking your arms (a known result based on human biology) we don't know how much it would have taken to break hype. and if you read what i said, i said he held back enough force that 2 PLANETS shattered before he did. iow he didn't fail. the planets failed. it's been crazy watching people degrade this feat over the years, like spiderman could have done it. my point is (and galan's i suspect) is that it's an unquantifiable strength feat. obviously it's a of durability feat as well. but it's just as obviously a massive strength feat. of some sort.

It's a strength feat. The minimum strength required is the minimum force needed to shatter a planet through compression, making it a planetary-level or multi-planetary-level feat.

Originally posted by leonidas
problem with what you said is that your arms break. would hype's arms have broken had the planets held? beats me. how much force would it have taken to break his arms? unlike your silly analogy of the cars breaking your arms (a known result based on human biology) we don't know how much it would have taken to break hype. and if you read what i said, i said he held back enough force that 2 PLANETS shattered before he did. iow he didn't fail. the planets failed. it's been crazy watching people degrade this feat over the years, like spiderman could have done it. my point is (and galan's i suspect) is that it's an unquantifiable strength feat. obviously it's a of durability feat as well. but it's just as obviously a massive strength feat. of some sort.

Yes, I think we both agree on this, actually. What started it all *in this thread*, however, are posts like this:

Originally posted by carver9
*Two universes apart.

And in others:
Originally posted by Stoic
Hyperion momentarily stopped two universes from colliding.

And since you are talking about people degrading it 'over the years':

Originally posted by JBL
So. Hyperion held back two universes.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Standard Hulk matches Hickman's Hyperion who holds two universes apart.

Holding back enough force that is capable of shattering a planet on each arm =/= holding back two universal level forces. THAT'S what I and Galan's egg analogies are talking about.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
THAT'S what I and Galan's egg analogies are talking about. Exactly.

Press an egg against a car, and the egg is obviously going to shatter LONG before you start to hold/push/restrain the car itself(how is this even debatable, lol?)

...And just to be clear: in this case the egg = a planet, and the car = a universe... And they're both bumrushing you at insane speeds. IOW, that planet/egg(with universe-weight backing it) is going to shatter on impact with anything that is even remotely durable. HOW is it a quantifiable strength feat by any metric?

We've literally saw on panel earth being pushed back which also pushed the universe back. Galan, I saw your reply previously about this (just now). The goal during that scene was to push earth back. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all that was said on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly.

Press an egg against a car, and the egg is obviously going to shatter LONG before you start to hold/push/restrain the car itself(how is this even debatable, lol?)

...And just to be clear: in this case the egg = a planet, and the car = a universe... And they're both bumrushing you at insane speeds. IOW, that planet/egg(with universe-weight backing it) is going to shatter on impact with anything that is even remotely durable. HOW is it a quantifiable strength feat by any metric?

agreed. my only issue was with people seemingly claiming it wasn't a strength feat at all. it was a massive strength feat. just completely impossible to quantify beyond saying hype didn't fail--the planets failed. how much could he have endured? impossible to say. but he held while two planets crumbled. that's unquestionably an absurd strength feat. one of the best on-panel strength feats in marvel history imo /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
agreed. my only issue was with people seemingly claiming it wasn't a strength feat at all. it was a massive strength feat. just completely impossible to quantify beyond saying hype didn't fail--the planets failed. how much could he have endured? impossible to say. but he held while two planets crumbled. that's unquestionably an absurd strength feat. one of the best on-panel strength feats in marvel history imo /shrug

It's definitely a strength feat. We can only establish a lower bound - the minimum amount of force required to accomplish the feat. Anything beyond that is unquantifiable.


Originally posted by h1a8
It's a strength feat. The minimum strength required is the minimum force needed to shatter a planet through compression, making it a planetary-level or multi-planetary-level feat.

Originally posted by carver9
We've literally saw on panel earth being pushed back which also pushed the universe back. Galan, I saw your reply previously about this (just now). The goal during that scene was to push earth back. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all that was said on panel.

The egg breaking doesn't mean you pushed the car back, Carvy. What Cap does with the IG =/= what happened with Hype.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The egg breaking doesn't mean you pushed the car back, Carvy. What Cap does with the IG =/= what happened with Hype.

Lol... I know that. The only difference between your analogy and what happened on panel is, Hyperion temporarily stopped the incursion whereas an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... I know that. The only difference between your analogy and what happened on panel is, Hyperion temporarily stopped the incursion whereas an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Did he stop the incursion? Nothing in the text said he did. He held them apart until they broke.

https://i.postimg.cc/13ZsWLfF/zDwSZry.jpg

I held them apart....

....until the eggs broke.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did he stop the incursion? Nothing in the text said he did. He held them apart until they broke.

https://i.postimg.cc/13ZsWLfF/zDwSZry.jpg

I held them apart....

....until the eggs broke.

The planets weren't moving on their own. So he held them and the force that was pushing them apart until the planet gave way. It's literally telling us he held them apart which also includes the force that was pushing the planet. An egg being tied to a car will not be held back because it would crack instantly. The statement of "he held them back" wouldn't be used because nothing was held back.

Originally posted by carver9
The planets weren't moving on their own.

Nor are the eggs.


The underlined is never said. It literally only states that he held the planets apart.


The underlined isn't said.



It won't crack instantly. You are literally adding sentences and concepts to what is a very simple sentence.

Hyperion held the planets apart, until they broke.

I held the eggs apart, until they broke.

The comic scene does not say anything about the forces pushing the planets, just like my sentence does not say anything about the cars.

Originally posted by carver9
an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Well, technically, neither are planets holding back the incursion.

So, the planets were being compressed (similar to a golf ball) by the forces until they broke apart. This means Hyperion exerted at least the minimum force required to compress a planet to the point of shattering.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

The comic scene does not say anything about the forces pushing the planets, just like my sentence does not say anything about the cars.

Correct!

Is it a strength feat to some extent? I guess? Is it even remotely quantifiable as such? Not at all.

To recycle DS's analogy:
If I stand in the center of the road, and two semi-trucks(each with an egg taped to the front bumper) are speeding towards me from opposite sides, but I am able to hold up my arms just long enough for the eggs to break when trucks hit me... How much of my OWN physical strength was required to break the eggs, and how much of it was due to the speeding vehicles I was trying to intercept(#Physics)..? Pretty hard to quantify(at all) with the information we were presented in the source material.

tl;dr
It is a durability feat, first and foremost... And a great one. The alleged "strength" required is secondary to that, however.

my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

It's definitely a strength feat... against the planets.

🤦🏿🤦🏿

I don't really know how to make it more clear. If I hold a bar up to the house and push forward, and the bar eventually bends. I didn't push back the house with my strength. I simple bent the bar with my strength using the house as the leverage.

If a planet falls on me and I push it back until the planet breaks, I broke the planet, I didn't hold back the universe. The planet broke when it couldn't resist both me and the universe crashing in on it, right?

Originally posted by leonidas
my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

Yes, balloons and eggs are fragile - relative to speeding cars and us. To an ant or fly, they're impossible to break.

Planets seem super durable - but relative to universal forces, they're eggs.
Originally posted by carver9
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
Carv, you agree with us, if you're agreeing with Leo. Read the underlined part of his post. We are all saying Hyperion did NOT push back with a force equal/greater than what was pushing the planets together.

You're the only one trying to make out Hyperion pushed back universal forces. Reread Leo's post, before agreeing with it lol.

that's true--compared to universal forces they are--but they are still planets, and the comparison being forgotten in the analogy is Hyperion to the planet. using eggs and balloons degrades the feat imo. an egg is fragile compared to you. a planet? not so much. a planetary force compared to almost any superhuman in marvel is...enormous. he exceeded the force threshold required to obliterate two planets.

it's an IMMENSE feat of strength imo.

the whole feat is strange though. it appears at no point that he actually makes direct contact with either planet...? it's weird. we also have no idea how long he held them apart.

so yes. 100% unquantifiable. but 100% an IMMENSE strength feat imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's true--compared to universal forces they are--but they are still planets, and the comparison being forgotten in the analogy is Hyperion to the planet. using eggs and balloons degrades the feat imo. an egg is fragile compared to you. a planet? not so much. a planetary force compared to almost any superhuman in marvel is...enormous. he exceeded the force threshold required to obliterate two planets.

it's an IMMENSE feat of strength imo.

the whole feat is strange though. it appears at no point that he actually makes direct contact with either planet...? it's weird. we also have no idea how long he held them apart.

so yes. 100% unquantifiable. but 100% an IMMENSE strength feat imo.

OK. Its immense as a strength feat.

Its not universal level, which is exponentially more immense. At THOSE levels, its waaaay more of a durability feat, and a verrry distant second (relatively) a strength feat /shrug.

And definitely not a feat where he pushes universes back.

no of course not. it doesn't make sense. you'd have to suppose some metaphysical link between the planet and the universe which is never stated or--unless you REALLY want to reach--implied.

I know it works when Carv has to go bump other threads

Originally posted by Facee
Thor has his Hammer strapped to his waist.

This is h2h only.

This looks pertinent:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thor, amped, vs a personification of an idea:

https://i.postimg.cc/bscMds2H/07.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/mhFJbQhg/08.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/hQx5pqNd/10.jpg

VS:

https://i.imgur.com/vQgvaOr.jpeg

I really hope we get more fourth world books than the New Gods book we have right now. It's fantastic, but I need more.

best comic out there currently for sure.

Resurrection Man has same art from Ram V, and it's nice.