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Fight outside the X-Mansion.

Standard rules, nobody else around.

Which Firestorm, I assume Susan is out to kill and whichever Firestorm you say is a literal baby, of course

None of the amped/merged versions but idk if both Jason and Ronnie are running around right now or what.

Let's say Jason, I guess.

Standard forum mindset etc.

Good match.

Has Sue's shielding ever been transmuted?

Originally posted by Galan007
Good match.

Has Sue's shielding ever been transmuted?

It has no molecules, so...Molecule Man couldn't do anything.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHyVdJ71/Molecule.png

Probably the closest we have to a transmuter failing.

Usual disclaimer, this is when she was younger blah blah.

If Sue were still at those levels, then FS could apparently just do something like this around her shield, ftw:

https://i.ibb.co/WWvJQ1Cc/P00019.jpg

Titanium > steel > Sue's shield. haw-som


But seriously, if FS can't transmute Sue's constructs/shielding, then maybe he can transmute the air inside her shield? I dunno. Sue is just really OP these days, so I'm not sure what else FS can do unless he gets up close and personal(which isn't likely to happen.) /shrug

Sue's FF has withstood the Cosmic Cube and Ultimate Nullifer. Firestorm is doing nothing here except losing.

Originally posted by Galan007
If Sue were still at those levels, then FS could apparently just do something like this around her shield, ftw:

https://i.ibb.co/WWvJQ1Cc/P00019.jpg

Titanium > steel > Sue's shield. haw-som


But seriously, if FS can't transmute Sue's constructs/shielding, then maybe he can transmute the air inside her shield? I dunno. Sue is just really OP these days, so I'm not sure what else FS can do unless he gets up close and personal(which isn't likely to happen.) /shrug

Yeah, Sersi tried that:

https://i.postimg.cc/CKNRmvwT/Sersi.png

Just to note to people - these two scans are pretty old, as you can tell from the art.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It has no molecules, so...Molecule Man couldn't do anything.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHyVdJ71/Molecule.png

Probably the closest we have to a transmuter failing.

Usual disclaimer, this is when she was younger blah blah. i don't even get this. how can a physical "thing" have no molecular structure? what does that even mean lol?

What happens if FS encases her shield in titanium? I'm curious.

Also, can FS even detect her if she turns invisible? Or detect her after she makes his eyes invisible?

How is Sue going to hurt FS when he can just phase or turn intangible?

Originally posted by Senor Cage
How is Sue going to hurt FS when he can just phase or turn intangible?
Fantastic Four #29. She makes the Red Ghost tangible with her force field.

FS is on a different level, though. Do you have scans?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9447025-rco012_w_1591287199.jpg

Interesitng.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
i don't even get this. how can a physical "thing" have no molecular structure? what does that even mean lol? it's a forcefield, i.e. energy, I guess.

Originally posted by h1a8
What happens if FS encases her shield in titanium? I'm curious.

Also, can FS even detect her if she turns invisible? Or detect her after she makes his eyes invisible? If FS encased Sue's shield in titanium these days, she'd just extend the shield and shatter out of it... Bigger question is what'd happen if he tried the same trick with Promethium instead:
https://i.ibb.co/9kh9R9cy/JLA-073-2002-digital-Empire-012.jpg

*fwiw, Access stated that Promethium ~ Adamantium:
https://ibb.co/hy65V37


Where invisibility is concerned, this is the only possible counter I can think of:
https://i.ibb.co/5hK40CqN/Countdown-to-Final-Crisis-008-005.jpg

...But obviously Sue's invisibility doesn't involve her shrinking down to really small sizes, so that is certainly not a guaranteed work-around for FS.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
How is Sue going to hurt FS when he can just phase or turn intangible? Intangibility is something that FS has always used cautiously(ie. in relatively short bursts), as the ability itself comes with a lot of potential risks:
https://ibb.co/yn7DfD9x

I don't recall him ever hanging out in that state for a prolonged period of time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's Ronnie/Martin, right? OP said it was Jason in this thread, reported though I guess Jason could also do it? It was Ronnie.

But assuming this Firestorm is a Jason/Stein amalgam, he'd still be able to do it. Outside of a few of Ronnie's classic high-end outliers, Jason always impressed me more as FS anyway.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But a more likely/easier solution, IF Jason tries promethium (and succeeds) is that she just...attacks/defends at the same time:

She's one of the best at multitasking. Match starts, she shields herself and attacks FS at the same time. Sure, sure... But what IF FS encased her in Promethium? Is she stuck or does she break out, iyo?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here, Reed and She-Hulk are working with an adamantium core in his lab. Sue destroys said lab

https://i.postimg.cc/v48wQCXW/9463806-1000014193.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/0ztRrZHh/9463807-1000014192.jpg I'm not familiar with this showing, but it didn't look like Sue destroyed the Adamantium component itself... Did she?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, Sue would be able to hide from him, I reckon. On THAT, I am sure (even if I am iffy about other stuff: Figured as much.

Gaylan, reported.....

Yeah the adamantium showing was tongue in cheek (hence my smileys and colouring). I don't know if the core was actually destroyed - all I know is that he had it in his lab, and she destroyed the lab (Fantastic Four #269).

But yes, Jason was the more impressive, he could actually create machinery right? Though I honestly thought new materials needed study and practice before he could do so.

If encased in Promethium, and the only way out was to break it......mayyyybe? But it would be incredibly doubtful - afaik she hasn't gone up against anything as durable as adamantium in Marvel, sans that scan above. Closest would be something like this, and depends what weight you want to put on 'cut through anything':

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9497063-1000016432.jpg

The scan has a secondary effect of summoning Stilt.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gaylan, reported.....

Yeah the adamantium showing was tongue in cheek (hence my smileys and colouring). I don't know if the core was actually destroyed - all I know is that he had it in his lab, and she destroyed the lab (Fantastic Four #269).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But yes, Jason was the more impressive, he could actually create machinery right? Though I honestly thought new materials needed study and practice before he could do so. Yep. The wackiness/complexity of Jason's constructs was almost GL-esque at times:

https://i.ibb.co/SDNDcnww/P00004.jpg


One of the other things that set Jason apart was his ability to transmute organic material pretty much right away(Ronnie could never really do that before Doomsday Clock, and even then he was hard-pressed to learn the ability)... And Jason was also able to recover from the same kind of attack that 'killed' Ronnie:
https://i.ibb.co/24FbLv5/Justice-League-of-America-032-2009-digital-Empire-015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/zV87HN3s/Justice-League-of-America-032-2009-digital-Empire-016.jpg
So yeah, Jason > Ronnie overall, imo.

But you're right: FS needs to "know" the material he's creating beforehand, but that shouldn't be a problem if he's merged with Stein. /shrug

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If encased in Promethium, and the only way out was to break it......mayyyybe? But it would be incredibly doubtful - afaik she hasn't gone up against anything as durable as adamantium in Marvel, sans that scan above. Closest would be something like this, and depends what weight you want to put on 'cut through anything':

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9497063-1000016432.jpg

The scan has a secondary effect of summoning Stilt.

Oh and what is Sue's defense to having the air inside her shielding transmuted into... Something else? Is Sersi on par with Firestorm in that department?

Originally posted by Galan007


Yep. The wackiness/complexity of Jason's constructs was almost GL-esque at times:

https://i.ibb.co/SDNDcnww/P00004.jpg


One of the other things that set Jason apart was his ability to transmute organic material pretty much right away(Ronnie could never really do that before Doomsday Clock, and even then he was hard-pressed to learn the ability)... And Jason was also able to recover from the same kind of attack that 'killed' Ronnie:
https://i.ibb.co/24FbLv5/Justice-League-of-America-032-2009-digital-Empire-015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/zV87HN3s/Justice-League-of-America-032-2009-digital-Empire-016.jpg
So yeah, Jason > Ronnie overall, imo.

But you're right: FS needs to "know" the material he's creating beforehand, but that shouldn't be a problem if he's merged with Stein. /shrug



Oh and what is Sue's defense to having the air inside her shielding transmuted into... Something else? Is Sersi on par with Firestorm in that department?

Just quickly scanning the respect thread for Sersi, I'd argue she's on par if not better...

Plus there's the Cosmic Cube scan, where she was protecting Reed even subconsciously, for a whole night.

Since I don't know enough about Sersi to argue either way, I'll just concede that Sue's shields > Sersi-level transmutation ~ FS-level transmutation.

So in that case, I guess this might be something of a quickdraw(ie. whoever acts first, wins)..? If they act at the same time, then Sue might(but I'm still not entirely convinced) still be able to beat FS with secondary attacks... But she'd still be stuck in a cube of solid Promethium for eternity. haw-som

Or Firestorm turns her into salt

That is never a wrong answer.

I don't see him getting through her FF to work his powers on her. Like DS said, if Sersi can't do it, I don't think FS could do it. And this was back in the mid 90s. The bullsh|t surrounding her powers has grown exponentially.

Encasing her in Promethium is his only hope and that's being generous and assuming she can't just expand her FF and shatter it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Since I don't know enough about Sersi to argue either way, I'll just concede that Sue's shields > Sersi-level transmutation ~ FS-level transmutation.

So in that case, I guess this might be something of a quickdraw(ie. whoever acts first, wins)..? If they act at the same time, then Sue might(but I'm still not entirely convinced) still be able to beat FS with secondary attacks... But she'd still be stuck in a cube of solid Promethium for eternity. haw-som

Yeah - I still think (obv) that Sue would win a quickdraw, and would win with an attacking defence that occurs simultaneously (so not a secondary attack...)

And this all assumes Jason creates promethium off the bat, too, or doesn't waste time trying to convert her shield. Whilst Sue's is a much more straighforward bubble attack/shield.

Also assumes he only converts the air into promethium - she can just leisurely dig her way out afterwards, using a giant robot construct:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11139/111391579/9563158-1000022318.jpg

This is where the 'bullshit' as zop puts it, has increased. She can now form more than just simple shapes, but can basically do GL type constructs like engines:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9563190-1000022323.jpg

And another, although I might dump this in the Comic Discussions thread - an insane feat where she aligns and synchronises every single photon as Johnny produces it, whilst creating a construct strong enough to handle his Nova Flame, just after stopping a town-sized asteroid travelling at Mach 50

https://i.postimg.cc/5Y8qWg0Y/RCO019-1710962127.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/zH5wzhbd/RCO020-1710962127.jpg

It's like the Silver Age all over again.

At this rate, it would take a high-level abstract to beat her and no I'm not joking.

yeah. that's what i said. i hate her. and by extension ds who seems to love her.

Originally posted by zopzop
Encasing her in Promethium is his only hope and that's being generous and assuming she can't just expand her FF and shatter it. Frankly, I'm surprised that Sue hasn't already done something similar to Adamantium.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It has no molecules, so...Molecule Man couldn't do anything.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHyVdJ71/Molecule.png

Probably the closest we have to a transmuter failing.

Usual disclaimer, this is when she was younger blah blah.

"subatomically frictionless"

https://i.ibb.co/hFSyyLFk/IMG-2517.jpg

Whatever that means

Originally posted by Smurph


"subatomically frictionless"

https://i.ibb.co/hFSyyLFk/IMG-2517.jpg

Whatever that means
Means even something like a suction cup or adhesive wouldn't bond to it. Spiderman probably couldn't even climb it at this point.

Technically there's no way they should be able to walk across a dome made of it because it's slicker than any ice in existence

Sue wins.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Sue wins.

She probably does.
How do you think the fight would play out if he encased her shield in Promethium?

Well, she could turn the promethium invisible, can still attack through it, and just needs to beat Firestorm before she runs out of air, I guess? Seems doable.